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Tuesday, November 20, 2012

Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matter of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, November 20, 2012

Ricky Ibe, Chairman
Jeffrey Gedeon
Brent Ferrell
David Ghannam, Temporary Secretary

Charles Boulard, Building Official
Beth Saarela, City Attorney
Coordinator: Angela Pawlowski, Recording Secretary

Jennifer L. Wall, Certified Shorthand Reporter

1 Novi, Michigan.

2 Tuesday, November 20, 2012

3 7:00 p.m.

4 ** ** **

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Good evening.

6 Welcome to the November 20th, 2012 Zoning

7 Board of Appeals meeting for the City of Novi

8 meeting.

9 Can we please rise for the

10 Pledge of Allegiance.

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Ms. Pawlowski, can

12 you please call the roll.

13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

14 MR. GEDEON: Here.

15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick

16 is absent, excused.

17 Member Ghannam?

18 MR. GHANNAM: Here.

19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Present.

21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger is

22 absent, excused. Member Sanghvi is absent,

23 excused. Member Skelcy is absent, excused.

24 Member Ferrell?

25 MR. FERRELL: Here.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Before we get

2 started, I'd just like to -- those who have a

3 matter before the Board, to be aware that we

4 do not have a full board this evening.

5 We do have four members.

6 Now, any decision that is

7 made today, will be final. And you do have

8 the option to opt out to have your case

9 tabled to have a full board here next month.

10 So anyone who wishes to avail

11 themselves of that opportunity, should please

12 let us know.

13 The agenda for today's

14 meeting can be found in the back of the room,

15 for those of who wish to follow the

16 proceedings.

17 When you are called to the

18 podium, please make sure you state your name

19 and also spell your last name. And if your

20 first name is difficult, also spell that, so

21 the record keeper can have a correct spelling

22 for your name when the transcript is

23 prepared.

24 You will all have five

25 minutes for your presentation. And



1 additional time can be given to you at the

2 discretion of the chair.

3 Do we have any modifications

4 to the minutes for today's meeting? Other

5 than the information that we have offered to

6 be tabled?

7 MS. SAARELA: The agenda or the

8 minutes?

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: I'm sorry. The

10 agenda.

11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Yes. For the

12 agenda, we have two cases that have asked to

13 be tabled.

14 The first one is Case No.

15 PZ12-0047, at 1202 South Lake Drive. They

16 have asked to be tabled to the December 11th

17 meeting.

18 And also Case No. 4 on the

19 agenda, PZ12-0050, at 1316 East Lake Drive.

20 They have also asked to be tabled to the

21 December 11th meeting.

22 MR. GHANNAM: Do you need a

23 motion to adjourn or table those?

24 MS. SAARELA: You could do a roll

25 call, I'm sure.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes. Why don't we

2 have a roll call for -- can we do that

3 jointly or do we do that individually?

4 MS. SAARELA: I guess you can go

5 ahead and do it just as an overall vote.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank

7 you. Let's have a roll call to table the two

8 cases that the applicants have prior

9 requests.

10 Ms. Pawlowski, will you

11 please call the roll.

12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

13 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

15 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

19 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

20 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes

21 four to zero.

22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

23 All right. Do we have any

24 modifications to the minutes from the last

25 meeting?



1 MR. GHANNAM: If nothing else,

2 I'll move to approve the agenda as modified.

3 MR. GEDEON: Second.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those in favor

5 say aye.


7 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those opposed?

8 (No audible responses.)

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Well, seeing none,

10 the agenda is adopted as written.

11 Now we move to the minutes

12 from the last meeting in October.

13 Do we have any modifications

14 to that? Any changes?

15 (No audibles responses.)

16 All right. Seeing none, we

17 have any motion to adopt the minutes from the

18 last meeting?

19 MR. GHANNAM: I will move to

20 approve the October 2012 minutes.

21 MR. GEDEON: Second.

22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that a

23 motion has been made and seconded, all those

24 in favor say aye.

25 THE BOARD: Aye.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those against?

2 (No audible responses.)

3 Seeing none, the motion

4 carries, the minutes from the October 2012

5 meeting is also hereby adopted.

6 Is there anyone in the

7 audience who would like to make a public

8 remark at this time?

9 A public remark is limited to

10 just public remarks, but not anything to do

11 with the case, any cases before this board

12 this evening.

13 (No audible responses.)

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I

15 will close the public remarks section.

16 That will be bring us to our

17 first case on our agenda for today. That

18 will be Case No. PZ-12-0043, Bellanger, Inc..

19 Is the applicant here?

20 Please when you come to the

21 podium, state your name and spell your last

22 name for the record.

23 If you are not an attorney,

24 please raise your right hand and be sworn in

25 by our temporary secretary for tonight.



1 MR. GHANNAM: State your name,

2 sir.

3 MR. GUMINIK: Ron Guminik.

4 MR. GHANNAM: Do you swear or

5 affirm that your testimony will be the truth?

6 MR. GUMINIK: I do.

7 I am here representing

8 Bellanger, Incorporated. Our facility is on

9 Heslip Drive, and we are a manufacturer of

10 car wash equipment.

11 And we right now currently

12 have been allowing Tom Holzer Ford to store

13 their overflow new vehicles on our property.

14 Probably been doing that for, unfortunately,

15 I didn't know it was a violation, for about

16 12 years, and found out that it was. And so

17 what we'd like to do is get a variance to

18 allow us to continue to do that.

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Is that all?

20 MR. GUMINIK: That's it.

21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well, sir.

22 Thank you. Is there anyone in the audience

23 who would like to make any remark regarding

24 this particular case?

25 (No audible responses.)



1 Seeing none, I will call on

2 our secretary to read into the record any

3 correspondence received.

4 MR. GHANNAM: There were 28

5 notices mailed, three returns mailed, zero

6 approvals and zero rejections.

7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I now

8 turn to the city. Do we have any comments

9 regarding -- yes, Mr. Boulard?

10 MR. BOULARD: If I may,

11 Mr. Chair, a question for the applicant.

12 I recall from my visit to

13 your site a while ago, that you also store or

14 stage the car wash, you ship the product that

15 you make before it ships outside, that's also

16 part of the variance?

17 MR. GUMINIK: Yes. What we do is

18 we are a manufacturer of car wash equipment,

19 so if you look at -- you ever get your car

20 washed, you go through a tunnel, there is all

21 of that equipment. It, 99 percent of the

22 time is a dedicated truck load, 48-foot

23 truck.

24 So 95 percent, easily, of all

25 of our truckloads ship on Friday. Reason



1 being is that they are being shipped all over

2 the US.

3 And we store -- we start to

4 stage the product Thursday afternoon. So all

5 day Thursday we stage all the truckloads,

6 Friday we stage the truckloads, then Friday

7 the trucks start coming in, anywhere from,

8 you know, 9:00 in the morning until probably

9 4:00 in the afternoon.

10 And what we do we -- as each

11 truck comes, we lift, stage and ship the

12 product out the door.

13 MR. BOULARD: So I guess I'm

14 concerned as -- I'm concerned as is noted in

15 the staff report about a permanent variance

16 for this.

17 I don't believe that there is

18 going to be any significant impact, if there

19 is a short term variance.

20 But I would encourage the

21 board to, if you want to consider a variance,

22 consider a time, a specific time at which

23 point they would need to come back or find

24 another way to handle this thing.

25 Also that the fire lanes



1 remain open around the building.

2 MR. GUMINIK: Absolutely.

3 MR. BOULARD: Which I'm sure you

4 need for access for the trucks. Thank you.

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you,

6 Mr. Boulard. Does the city attorney have any


8 MS. SAARELA: We have nothing

9 additional.

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I will

11 now open it up to the board for more

12 discussion.

13 MR. GHANNAM: I have several

14 questions.

15 I mean, you have been storing

16 these cars in the parking lot for how many

17 years now?

18 MR. GUMINIK: Ten.

19 MR. GHANNAM: Ten years, okay.

20 How many vehicles do you store at any given

21 time?

22 MR. GUMINIK: Anywhere from, when

23 they're low, probably ten, to when they're at

24 their highest peak, 100, 120.

25 MR. GHANNAM: These vehicles, are



1 they stored on the -- would it be the west

2 side of the property, in terms of that side

3 of the parking lot?

4 MR. GUMINIK: Yes, all the way

5 back where the railroad tracks are.

6 MR. GHANNAM: Does this impact

7 your business in terms of how many vehicles

8 you need for your business?

9 MR. GUMINIK: Not at all.

10 MR. GHANNAM: How many spaces do

11 you have on this lot?

12 MR. GUMINIK: Hundreds. I mean,

13 we only have 34 people that work in the

14 building.

15 So what happens is when

16 Tom Holzer Ford gets their inventory, their

17 excess inventory, we -- I mean -- we have

18 known Buzzy Holzer for a long time, so we

19 have always allowed them to store their

20 vehicles there.

21 MR. GHANNAM: Mr. Boulard, when

22 you were saying -- when you were suggesting a

23 time limit, were you suggesting it for the

24 vehicles storage or for the product staging?

25 MR. BOULARD: My suggestion was



1 for all the outdoor storage. We -- once we

2 became aware of this, we worked with the

3 business over, and the past two years, we

4 have done temporary use permits to

5 accommodate these activities. The ordinance

6 limits those to two one-yea terms, so hence

7 the gentleman is here requesting relief.

8 MR. GHANNAM: But are you

9 suggesting that if we grant such a request,

10 that it be limited to say, like a specific

11 time period, like a year or something like

12 that, where they'd have to come back?

13 MR. BOULARD: Perhaps two years.

14 My concern is that we have got an ordinance

15 provisions that restrict outdoor storage.

16 I'm having a difficult time justifying a

17 complete waiver of that for -- to be recorded

18 with the property into the future. No matter

19 who the tenant is.

20 MR. GHANNAM: I agree with that.

21 Sir, do you own your own

22 building there, is it part of what you own,

23 or you lease that there?

24 MR. GUMINIK: No, we own the

25 building.



1 MR. GHANNAM: You own the

2 building.

3 What's your intent in terms

4 of how long you expect to -- I assume, you

5 lease it to Tom Holzer Ford, correct?


7 MR. GHANNAM: They just use it as

8 no charge, as a favor, okay.

9 MR. GUMINIK: Actually there is a

10 relationship that goes back to college years.

11 MR. GHANNAM: I gotcha.

12 MR. GUMINIK: Yes.

13 MR. GHANNAM: And the staging of

14 the product for shipping, you can -- if we

15 were to grant such type of relief, you would

16 have no problem -- that it could be no

17 earlier than a Thursday and no later than a

18 Friday, it would only be two-day type period?

19 MR. GUMINIK: Sure, Thursday,

20 Friday, that would be fine.

21 MR. GHANNAM: Again, you would

22 need that -- I guess, that request you're

23 looking for on a more permanent basis as

24 opposed to a limited time period, I assume?

25 MR. GUMINIK: Yes.



1 MR. GHANNAM: In terms of

2 granting that, because if we grant such type

3 of relief, without a time period, it's good

4 for indefinite no matter whether you own

5 it --

6 MR. GUMINIK: We do a time

7 period, that would be fine. You know, back

8 in, I think '07 -- actually '08 -- '07 we

9 looked at doing an addition, so we could

10 bring the trucks, you know, into the -- into

11 it, but obviously with the economy that -- so

12 certainly, you know, I would have no issue

13 with a -- you know, a two-year temporary,

14 then revisit it, that would be certainly

15 workable.

16 MR. GHANNAM: Thank you. I have

17 no other questions.

18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you,

19 Member Ghannam.

20 MS. SAARELA: I'd just like to

21 point out, everybody is considering the

22 information from the applicant, and your

23 comments, that we're looking at different

24 standards than we normally are looking at.

25 There are more rigorous



1 standards of limited use variance. So I

2 would just focus on the fact that there is

3 different standards on the sheet.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, I have one

5 brief question for you.

6 Now, you said you will

7 have -- they have been using it for about ten

8 years or so prior to finding out that you

9 weren't supposed to?

10 MR. GUMINIK: Yes.

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: So what makes you

12 believe that in the next two years you're

13 going to find a permanent solution to this

14 problem?

15 MR. GUMINIK: Well, I guess there

16 is probably two issues. One is, I guess that

17 would give it proper notification to

18 Tom Holzer, to Buzzy, that you're going to

19 have to find storage elsewhere.

20 And then secondly, as far as

21 our equipment goes, we will have to make a

22 decision, you know, what we did, and the

23 reason I think it came about, was we have two

24 facilities, one that's in Northville and one

25 that's in Novi.



1 When we bought the Novi

2 facility, that's what we -- that was our

3 pretty much business as usual. And so

4 obviously we didn't know, so I guess if it

5 started to become a big problem, we would

6 have to look, honestly, at either moving the

7 plaintiff manufacturing pad back to

8 Northville, or, you know, doing something

9 different.

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Is it your best

11 estimate that this can be accomplished

12 within -- if assuming we do grant this, in

13 the time limit given to you?

14 MR. GUMINIK: Yes.

15 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

16 Do we have any other questions regarding

17 this?

18 Yes, Member Gedeon?

19 MR. GEDEON: I just have a

20 question for the city or the city attorney.

21 Reading over the standards

22 for granting the use variance, it mentions

23 uses permitted by right or uses by special

24 land use permits.

25 Can you just clarify for the



1 board and for the applicant what a special

2 land use permit is? If that would be at all

3 available?

4 MS. SAARELA: Do you want to or

5 do you want me to?

6 MR. BOULARD: I can.

7 MS. SAARELA: It's up to you.

8 MR. BOULARD: Special land use

9 provisions are within certain zoning

10 district. There would be a -- there might be

11 a group of ten or 12 uses, for example, just

12 as an example, that are allowed by right.

13 There would be other uses

14 that would be allowed, perhaps, that would be

15 allowed with a special land use.

16 It means that there is closer

17 scrutiny, for example, certain uses might be

18 a special land use, if they were adjacent to

19 residential, and that way the planning

20 commission, zoning would have additional

21 scrutiny for the possible impacts of that on

22 the residential area.

23 So special use is something

24 that's allowed -- it's beyond what's allowed

25 by right, but it's allowed with certain



1 conditions that would minimize the impacts.

2 MR. GEDEON: And that's something

3 that would have to be granted by city council

4 then or -- I'm trying to -- if we were to say

5 no tonight, to the applicant, I guess I'm

6 wondering what other alternatives there would

7 be.

8 MR. BOULARD: In the zoning

9 district that's here, the -- where this

10 facility is located, outdoor storage is not

11 allowed. It's not allowed even under a

12 special use. So that -- hence they're here.

13 As I mentioned before, I

14 don't believe that there is particularly

15 egregious. I'm concerned about the

16 moralizing of long term.

17 I don't know if that helps at

18 all. I can tell you that in the past two

19 years, although we have had the temporary

20 uses, we have not had any complaints, and the

21 business has done a great job of keeping

22 things clean, keeping it neat and they have

23 cycled their product through.

24 MR. GEDEON: Well, to the members

25 of the board, I'm inclined to go along with



1 this. It is industrial property. It's along

2 the railroad tracks. They have been doing it

3 for years. And, you know, some of the

4 terminology of the -- wording the motion

5 might be a bit challenging, but I don't

6 really have any issues with it.

7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank

8 you, Member Gedeon.

9 Do we have any further need

10 for discussion about this or can we get a

11 motion?

12 MR. BOULARD: Yes. If I might,

13 just a point of clarification. If you were

14 to approve a variance with a time limit on

15 it, it would not preclude the applicant from

16 coming back to seek additional time in the

17 future.

18 Obviously if it was a matter

19 of number of two years, or three years, and

20 that time passed, and there was certain

21 situations that didn't allow them to enclose

22 the operations or whatnot, they could always

23 come back and this board could review the

24 situation again.

25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Having



1 heard that, do we have a motion?

2 MR. GEDEON: I will.

3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member

4 Gedeon. Go right ahead.

5 MR. GEDEON: In Case PZ-12-043,

6 22700 Heslip, I move that we grant the

7 requested variance for both outdoor storage

8 of vehicles and outdoor storage of staging

9 product for delivery, because the property is

10 cannot be reasonably used for any of the uses

11 permitted by right, or by special land use

12 permit in the zoning district to which it is

13 located.

14 The need for the requested

15 variance is due to unique circumstances or

16 physical conditions of the property involved,

17 such as narrowness, shallowness, shape,

18 water, topography, or similar physical

19 conditions and is not due to the applicant's

20 personal or economic hardship.

21 The proposed use will not

22 alter the essential character of the

23 neighborhood and the need for the requested

24 variance is not the result of actions of the

25 property owner or previous property owner.



1 And I would also add that the

2 particular requested use has been going on

3 for many years, without complaints from any

4 of the neighboring property. The property is

5 in an industrial area, and the property is

6 against a railroad track corridor.

7 I would limit this use

8 variance for a period of two years.

9 MR. GHANNAM: If I can just make

10 a comment. I have no problem with both

11 variances be limited to two years, but if you

12 can limit the staging to only Thursdays, no

13 earlier than Thursday, and no later than

14 Fridays, on a weekly basis, I have no problem

15 with that.

16 That's all he's really

17 requesting.

18 MR. BOULARD: Would it be

19 possible to clarify, if it's your intent,

20 that they have the temporary use through, I

21 think February, and to make the two years

22 following the expiration of that existing

23 temporary use, if that's acceptable?

24 MR. GEDEON: Sure. I will

25 clarify the motion that the use variance



1 would be for outdoor storage of product, for

2 delivery would be limited to weekdays

3 Thursday and Friday, and that the two-year

4 period for the variance would begin in March

5 of 2013.

6 MR. GHANNAM: With that, I will

7 second the motion.

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion

9 has been made and seconded, is there any

10 further questions or clarification that is

11 needed at this time?

12 (No audible responses.)

13 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, can

14 we please call the roll. Ms. Pawlowski.

15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

16 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

18 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

22 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes

24 four to zero.

25 MR. GUMINIK: Thank you.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

2 Congratulations.

3 The next case is Case No.

4 PZ-12-0048, 23538 Meadowbrook Road.

5 Will the applicant please

6 come to the podium. Please state your name

7 and spell your last name for the record.

8 If you are not an attorney,

9 please raise your right hand and be sworn in.

10 Thank you.

11 MR. MATTHEW PARENT: My name is

12 Matthew Parent, P-a-r-e-n-t.

13 MR. GHANNAM: Will both of you be

14 speaking?


16 MR. GHANNAM: Can you state your

17 state name.

18 MR. PAUL PARENT: My name is Paul

19 Parent.

20 MR. GHANNAM: Both of you raise

21 your right hand.

22 Do you swear or affirm you

23 will tell the truth in this case?





1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Please

2 proceed.

3 MR. MATTHEW PARENT: I recently

4 this house in May, around May, and the house

5 was like pretty much falling apart. And the

6 roof, if you can see on the -- in the -- if

7 you can see in the before picture, you can

8 see that there is a -- there was a hole in

9 the -- by the -- one of the bedrooms, it's by

10 that big window. Squirrels were getting in

11 there, the roof was rotting, and that front

12 porch was just coming off, and we were -- I

13 was concerned about safety, in case weather

14 hit, you would slip and fall. And I didn't

15 know I needed a permit to add on a roof to

16 the porch.

17 MR. PAUL PARENT: The house was

18 built in '74, and had a minimum setback of

19 26 feet at that time. So the full house sits

20 26 feet back.

21 The peak that was on this

22 original picture came out two feet

23 seven inches, so the porch -- we didn't

24 change any of the foundation on the porch.

25 The porch was always four feet by six feet.



1 This is what it looks like

2 today (indicating). The picture behind it is

3 an updated -- you see it on -- that's the

4 updated picture. That's the finished

5 product. You can see it's quite a distance

6 from the road. The covered porch does

7 protect against slip and falls.

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

9 MR. MATTHEW PARENT: Thank you.

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you,

11 gentlemen. Is there anyone in the public who

12 would like to make a remark regarding this

13 particular case?

14 (No audible responses.)

15 Seeing none, I will now ask

16 our secretary to please read into the record

17 any correspondence.

18 MR. GHANNAM: There were 29

19 notices mailed, one returned mail, zero

20 approvals, zero objections.

21 MR. PAUL PARENT: My other

22 next-door neighbor gave me his approval. He

23 gave it to me. I think it's too late, but --

24 you want it?

25 MR. GHANNAM: Just tell us who it



1 is from.

2 MR. PAUL PARENT: It's from

3 Mr. Artman, Warren Artman. He lives to the

4 north of us, so he is at the corner lot to

5 the side street.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. I

7 will now turn to the city for any comments or

8 remarks.

9 MS. SAARELA: I have none.

10 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add. I

11 will stand by for questions.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I

13 would like to open it up to the board for

14 discussion.

15 MR. GHANNAM: Just to make clear,

16 I just have one comment. They were supposed

17 to get this approval before they constructed

18 it, correct?

19 MR. BOULARD: Yes.

20 MR. GHANNAM: Well, I did take a

21 look at it. I drive by that area quite

22 often. It's fine. I understand the need.

23 Although it shouldn't be done in reverse

24 order.

25 MR. PAUL PARENT: We were told



1 that we didn't need to get a permit to do the

2 roof. We weren't going to take off that

3 original peak over the door, but when we tore

4 off the roof, it was so rotted, that was

5 another access point for rodents or squirrels

6 and chipmunks and raccoons, so we had to have

7 a whole attic decontaminated in any case, so

8 we just tore it off. While it was off, we

9 said, you know --

10 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that.

11 MR. PAUL PARENT: It should be

12 done in reverse.

13 MR. GHANNAM: There may have been

14 some confusion, but it does add some

15 elevation to the house. I agree, it does

16 protect the porch, at least to some extent

17 from the elements, so I have no problem with

18 it, sir.

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you,

20 Member Ghannam. Do we have any further

21 questions?

22 Sir, I will echo what my

23 colleague said here. Although it would have

24 been nice to get the permit prior to work,

25 however, seeing the finished product,



1 actually it looks better. And I can

2 understand sometimes the work needs to be

3 done. But I have no problem as well with

4 approving the variance.

5 MR. PAUL PARENT: Thank you.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will entertain a

7 motion.

8 MR. GHANNAM: I will make a

9 motion.

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Please. Thank

11 you.

12 MR. GHANNAM: Case No. PZ-12-0048

13 for 23538 Meadowbrook Road. I move to

14 approve the requested variance as requested,

15 due to the unique circumstances and physical

16 conditions of the property. The need is not

17 self-created. Strict compliance with the

18 regulations governing these area setbacks and

19 so forth will unreasonably prevent the

20 property owner from using the property for a

21 permitted purpose.

22 The requested variance is the

23 minimum variance necessary to do substantial

24 justice to the applicant, and it does not

25 cause adverse impact on the surrounding



1 property.

2 MR. GEDEON: I will second it.

3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that a

4 motion has been made and seconded, do we have

5 a need for discussion?

6 (No audible responses.)

7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Ms. Pawlowski,

8 please call the roll.

9 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

10 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

12 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

16 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes

18 four to zero.

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

20 Congratulations.

21 That brings us to our last

22 case for today.

23 That is Case No. P-Z 12-052,

24 for 7045 Pontiac Trail, Kroger fuel station.

25 Please remember to state your



1 name and spell the last name.

2 If you are not an attorney,

3 please raise your right hand.

4 MR. PISKO: Good evening.

5 Matthew Pisko, P-i-s-k-o.

6 MR. GHANNAM: Do you swear or

7 affirm that the testimony you will give here

8 will be the truth in this case?

9 MR. PISKO: Absolutely.

10 If I can, I'm going to pop an

11 aerial onto the screen.

12 MR. MYERS: Mr. Chairman, may I

13 have something to say?

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: You will get your

15 chance after he makes his presentation.

16 Thank you, sir.

17 Please proceed, sir.

18 MR. PISKO: Okay. First in the

19 staff report, it was alluded to two

20 variances.

21 One of the variance request

22 for moving the western curb inwards to the

23 east can be complied with along with the rest

24 of the conditions of the approval letter.

25 So this evening we are only



1 seeking one dimensional variance. There were

2 two different references to the distance of

3 the variance, both 35 and 42, and addressing

4 the comments of Novi traffic planner that was

5 reduced to 46 feet, so the variance has

6 become smaller as we moved through the

7 planning approval process.

8 And the five points of the

9 criterion for granting a variance, item A,

10 the unique circumstances of the property,

11 where an allowed use and having an approach

12 with the property dimensions is also allowed,

13 but working within the constraints of the

14 existing property, through the planning

15 commission, we got waivers for proximity to

16 the approach to the north for offset, and we

17 got a waiver for proximity to the western

18 approach.

19 If I can, this approach, this

20 distance between this radius and this radius

21 is 25 feet. And the dimensional variances

22 for tanker ingress into the site, you will

23 notice the tanks are here, so the dimensions

24 of the right in, right out were the minimum

25 requirements for the Road Commission of



1 Oakland County, and further refined by Novi's

2 traffic consultant to those geometrics. It's

3 the minimum size to allow the tanker ingress

4 and they drop off the passenger side, so the

5 tanker will queue and be parked as far away

6 from the activities of the site while its

7 fueling, and then we will depart out the

8 southwestern approach.

9 So that was a minimum size to

10 actually fit the tanker in and out.

11 We were granted the two

12 waivers for both proximity to the western

13 approach and to the offset approach across

14 the street. This was a minimum design again

15 to get the tanker in.

16 Item B, "was it a result of

17 the actions of the property owner", I would

18 suggest no, but it does, in fact, help queue

19 keep traffic into the parcel safely and

20 efficiently and allows a variety of ways for

21 people to exit the site at the southwest or

22 at the northeast to continue on their

23 journey.

24 Item C, "The strict

25 compliance with regulations governing will



1 prevent the property owner from using the

2 property for a permitted purpose".

3 Without the safe and

4 efficient ingress of the tanker, we won't be

5 able to enjoy the permitted use of the fuel

6 station because we can't get the tanks

7 filled.

8 Moving to Item D, the minimum

9 variance necessary and I probably beat that

10 to death already, but through the Road

11 Commission of Oakland County and through

12 review of the ordinance of the City of Novi

13 and the traffic consultant, that approach its

14 separation from the western approach to the

15 shopping center, and its proximity to the

16 property line was the minimum size to

17 actually allow the activity into the site and

18 out of the site.

19 Item E, "will not cause

20 adverse impact surrounding the property". I

21 would suggest when you look at the aerial,

22 the existing buffer wall and landscaping will

23 buffer the adjacent use and the approach to

24 the apartment complex to the east is

25 900 feet, plus or minus feet, it's probably



1 more like 925 feet, is separated, and then

2 the physical barrier of the wall and the

3 additional landscaping, really does, I think

4 effectively, screen the activity from the

5 adjacent use.

6 We have tried to west justify

7 the activity of the station. The fueling of

8 the tanks it occurs four or five times a week

9 and lasts about half hour, so it is something

10 that we have to account for in the design.

11 And with that I'll be

12 available for any questions. I humbly

13 request that you grant relief from the

14 100-foot requirement.

15 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

16 Now, do we have anyone in the audience who

17 would like to make a remark regarding this

18 particular case?

19 Please, sir, come to the

20 podium, and state your name, and also spell

21 your last name for the record.

22 If you are not an attorney,

23 please raise your right hand and be sworn in.

24 Your name, please.

25 MR. MYERS: Michael Myers.



1 MR. GHANNAM: Do you swear or

2 affirm that the testimony you will give in

3 this case will be the truth?

4 MR. MYERS: I do.

5 I represent the owners of the

6 adjacent apartment complexes.

7 The first thing I'd like to

8 bring up is, I don't think that they're

9 entitled to a variance.

10 According to the code, this

11 is a non-use variance. You're allowed to

12 build a gasoline station in this zoning, but

13 you can't get a variance, as the code states,

14 "that the need for the requested variance is

15 not to result in actions of the property

16 owner or previous owners that's not

17 self-created".

18 So I was here when the site

19 plan was for the whole site there for the

20 shopping center, including this piece of

21 property here.

22 The property included showed

23 a bank on this property. So the owners and

24 the subsequent owners, because I believe

25 Comerica bought the property to build a bank,



1 created this problem themselves. They didn't

2 allow enough room for a gas station. They

3 never intended to put a gas station on that

4 corner.

5 So by your own ordinance, it

6 can't even be considered for a variance.

7 If there is any question

8 about that, I would like to have your legal

9 staff review it.

10 In addition to that, you're

11 asking for a 65 -- he's required to have 100

12 feet away from our property, driveway. He

13 wants a variance at 65 feet, which is a huge

14 variance.

15 As he said, he's loading

16 gasoline, he's right next to our residential

17 property. There is buildings, the bedrooms

18 open on that area there, so they're lit up by

19 the lights at night from the gas station.

20 There are all kinds of

21 reasons to not grant the variance on that,

22 but even to consider the variance, I think it

23 is not allowed under the ordinance.

24 MR. GHANNAM: Other than lights

25 shining on the apartment complex, is there



1 any other adverse impact that this station

2 would have on your client's property?

3 MR. MYERS: Well, the noise, you

4 know, the danger of, you know, fuel

5 explosion, things like that.

6 MR. GHANNAM: Anything else?

7 MR. MYERS: Well, traffic

8 problems, you know.

9 MR. GHANNAM: Well, I mean, there

10 is a shopping center right next to you

11 though, isn't there?

12 MR. MYERS: Yes.

13 MR. GHANNAM: Don't you have that

14 traffic already?

15 MR. MYERS: Well, the traffic is

16 not right by the -- the entrance to the

17 shopping center is away from us. The traffic

18 is not very close to our property.

19 MR. GHANNAM: Thank you.

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

21 Do we have anyone else in the audience who

22 would like to make a comment on this

23 particular case?

24 (No audible responses.)

25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I



1 will now ask our secretary to please into the

2 record any correspondence received.

3 MR. GHANNAM: There were 15

4 notices mailed, five returned mailed, zero

5 approvals, zero objections.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I will

7 now turn this over to the city and ask if we

8 have any comments, questions.

9 MS. SAARELA: I have none.

10 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Prior to opening

12 this up to the board, the gentleman who came

13 up and raised an objection, he had stated

14 something to the effect that because of

15 Comerica wanted to put a bank there, that

16 legally that they cannot put a gas station

17 there, how true is that?

18 MS. SAARELA: I haven't

19 investigated what was proposed there before,

20 and what uses are contemplated or whether or

21 not they contemplated tanker trucks pulling

22 into that area.

23 So based on the facts that we

24 have now, I don't see the basis for that --

25 the comment.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank

2 you. I will now open this up to the board

3 for discussion. Yes, Member Gedeon?

4 MR. GEDEON: Staying with the

5 city attorney for a moment. If I recall, one

6 of the issues -- one of the few times that a

7 self-created problem comes up, is when there

8 is a parcel split, and a larger parcel splits

9 into -- you know, splits off a smaller

10 section, and then that smaller section is

11 not -- is not sized right for the use that

12 they want.

13 In this particular case,

14 maybe the city could help as well, was this

15 parcel for the gas station, proposed gas

16 station, split off from the larger strip mall

17 parcel?

18 MR. BOULARD: I believe that when

19 the shopping center was developed, that this

20 was created as an out lot, I believe that's

21 what the gentleman is referring to.

22 But I think it's important to

23 recall or remember that the issue was the

24 location of the access drive, not the use of

25 the gas -- not the use of the property as a



1 gas station.

2 The issue at hand is the

3 location of the drive to the north, if the

4 site would accommodate it or the folks

5 decided to -- the applicant decided to --

6 could find a way to redo the access drives,

7 they would need a variance and could go

8 ahead.

9 The issue here, as I

10 understand it, is that the configuration, the

11 slot was originally intended for bank. We

12 all know what happened to the banks. So I

13 understand that it may not be as an

14 attractive as a bank use anymore, certainly

15 the gas station is use is allowed, the issue

16 is the location of the drive.

17 And I did want to say that

18 the ordinance that limits the spread of light

19 from the canopy onto the adjacent properties

20 is certainly forced and has been reviewed as

21 part of this to minimize the impact.

22 So I understand the concerns

23 of lighting, canopies and so on, but the

24 efforts are in place to minimize that impact.

25 MR. GHANNAM: I assume from the



1 material we received that the planning

2 commission has already approved the site

3 plan, is that correct?

4 MR. BOULARD: Yes. There was

5 two -- there was issues that the planning

6 commission, in their action summary, or part

7 of their approval required for the ZBA, one

8 was the setback from the property line, that

9 the gentleman indicated they were going to

10 take care of, which is good, because we

11 advertised for this before, it got that far,

12 in order to accommodate this meeting.

13 And then the second and the

14 only remaining item was the location of this

15 access drive.

16 MR. GHANNAM: Yeah, okay.

17 Personally, I have -- I mean, I see that you

18 have an acre, just a little bit over an acre

19 of land. I understand the necessity of a

20 variance, such as this. I assume the

21 planning commission has gone through the

22 best -- as even the applicant said, that they

23 have gone through all different changes,

24 reduced some of the requirements that they

25 need, and this is the best scenario for it.



1 Now the question becomes one

2 of the access, given what they have already

3 done and studied and so forth, I really have

4 no problem supporting this request.

5 MR. MYERS: Mr. Chair --

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: One moment, sir.

7 Do we have any further comments from members?

8 MR. FERRELL: Mine were answered

9 by the board.

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: All right. Sir, I

11 will -- do you have a question, sir?

12 MR. MYERS: Well --

13 CHAIRMAN IBE: Can you please

14 come to the podium, sir. Thank you.

15 MR. MYERS: We believe that the

16 law is clear here, that the variance can't

17 even be considered. It isn't a matter of

18 whether you want to give it to them, you

19 think it's reasonable.

20 The variance can't even be

21 considered under your own ordinance. We ask

22 that before we cause trouble legally for both

23 us and the city, that you ask the city

24 attorney to review it.

25 I think that he will agree



1 with what we are saying here, that the

2 ordinance is very clear that the variance

3 can't even be considered.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, can I ask you

5 a few questions. What part of the ordinance

6 are you referring to? Can you be more

7 specific?

8 MR. MYERS: What part of the

9 ordinance?

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes, what part of

11 the ordinance are you referring to?

12 MR. MYERS: Right here. Section

13 3104, B, sub B, sub 1, sub B.

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: And that

15 ordinance, as you read it, says that a

16 variance cannot be granted -- your

17 interpretation of that ordinance --

18 MR. MYERS: Here's what it says.

19 I'll read it verbatim.

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: By all means, go

21 ahead.

22 MR. MYERS: It says, "for non-use

23 or dimensional variances", that's what he's

24 asking for.

25 "A non-use or dimensional



1 variance may be granted by the Zoning Board

2 of Appeals only in cases where the client

3 demonstrates in the official record of the

4 public hearing that a practical difficulty

5 exists by showing all the following. And one

6 of the following is that the need for the

7 requested variance is not the result of

8 access of the property owner or the previous

9 owners, that is not self-created."

10 Well, I say this is

11 self-created. So it's not allowed to be

12 granted a variance.

13 MR. GHANNAM: I mean, personally

14 my take on that, although I'm not giving my

15 legal opinion, is we are not here to make

16 rulings on your objections. That's for other

17 people.

18 We are considering a request

19 for a variance. That's one of the

20 considerations. We certainly take into

21 effect is it self-created, it is not. That's

22 just a judgment call on our part.

23 You know, the board members

24 make their own judgments on that particular

25 issue.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, other than

2 that, do you -- other than that, and what you

3 stated previously when you spoke, there are

4 no other grounds for your objections, is that

5 correct?

6 MR. MYERS: Well, it's -- we have

7 a big apartment complex here. Well, another

8 thing before I missed it. We have a well

9 that's about 1,100 feet away from this. The

10 water well supplies for those 3,500 people

11 that live there. We are concerned about the

12 gas tanks, okay, the underground gas tanks.

13 But also they're squeezing in

14 a gas station in a site that's too small for

15 it. There congestion already at the corner,

16 we have a lot of tenants there. It makes

17 more undesirable if you have got a corner

18 there, that is jammed traffic, people don't

19 like to live there. So it's creating a lot

20 of problems.

21 The zoning in itself, you

22 know, says this site is too small for a gas

23 station. Then to give a 65-foot variance.

24 It seems, you know, to me, way out of line,

25 you know, it shouldn't be granted.



1 I mean, there is no hardship

2 here. Kroger probably is only buying this

3 property subject to getting the variance, so

4 there is nobody in danger here.

5 I just don't think it's a

6 good planning to put that gas station there.

7 Thank you very much for you time.

8 But I wish you would have the

9 attorney look at it before you make your vote

10 because it's a troublesome thing for both us

11 and the city to have to get into a legal

12 battle, you know.

13 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. I

14 appreciate your comments and concerns. Thank

15 you.

16 MR. MYERS: Thank you.

17 MR. FERRELL: I have a question

18 for the city attorney. I guess my question

19 is, if he is right, and the zoning -- I know

20 that was not what we are here today here, we

21 are just here for the variance on the

22 driveway for the property.

23 Is that something that could

24 be issue, or is that something we don't have

25 to be worried about at this meeting?



1 MS. SAARELA: You don't need to

2 worry about it at all. The zoning is

3 correct. The zoning has been correct for the

4 type of proposal.

5 It's already been approved by

6 planning commission. They looked at that

7 issue already. It's in the report actually,

8 in your packet that the issue has been

9 reviewed already. That's the correct size

10 for the use.

11 The only thing we are here

12 for is the location of the access drive, and

13 they're proposing that they need it in this

14 location to accommodate the turning radius of

15 the type of truck coming onto the property.

16 It's not as a result of the size of the

17 property. That meets the minimum standards

18 of the zoning ordinance.

19 MR. FERRELL: Is there any way to

20 get him information that he could go talk to

21 city planning commission to voice his

22 complaints rather than voicing them here with

23 the Zoning Board?

24 MS. SAARELA: I believe he did

25 speak at the planning commission, yes.



1 MR. FERRELL: Did you speak at

2 the Planning Commission meeting about this?

3 MR. MYERS: The planning

4 commission meeting hasn't come up yet. It

5 doesn't come up to the planning commission

6 approval until after this zoning variance, I

7 believe, is that true?

8 MS. SAARELA: That is incorrect.

9 There was a planning commission meeting last

10 Tuesday, or the previous Wednesday.

11 MR. MYERS: I was there the

12 previous Wednesday. They would not let me

13 speak.

14 MS. SAARELA: I believe that you

15 spoke in the public comment, is that correct?

16 MR. MYERS: Yes, before. But

17 we -- they didn't pay attention to me.

18 MS. SAARELA: It wasn't a matter

19 set for a public hearing. That would have

20 been the only time for members of the public

21 to speak on the matter.

22 MR. MYERS: Is there another time

23 when there is a public hearing coming up for

24 this matter?

25 MS. SAARELA: Not for that type



1 of zoning approval because it's not a

2 discretionary approval.

3 MR. MYERS: How about approval

4 for the site plan, is that coming up?

5 MS. SAARELA: The site plan

6 approval -- the preliminary site plan

7 approval occurred already.

8 MR. MYERS: You said the

9 approval. When is the final site plan

10 approval?

11 MS. SAARELA: They do that

12 internally just to make sure that it meets

13 the preliminary site plan approval. It's an

14 administrative approval.

15 MR. BOULARD: In this case, the

16 final approval is administrative, it's

17 basically to make sure that the final plans

18 have the engineering and so on, that all the

19 details match what was approved in the

20 preliminary site plan.

21 MR. MYERS: Is there a public

22 meeting for that?

23 MR. BOULARD: No, sir.

24 MR. MYERS: Well, I was told that

25 there would be a public hearing, final site



1 plan approval. That's why I couldn't make

2 that meeting (inaudible) except for a little

3 short thing before the meeting started.

4 I'm a little confused by

5 this. I mean, we had a lot of -- site plan

6 approval of this community, we build a lot of

7 apartments here, and I never saw when the

8 public couldn't speak.

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, if I may, you

10 have had the opportunity to have you voice

11 your concerns today, and we'll obviously take

12 that into consideration.

13 However, the Zoning Board of

14 Appeals, we make our decisions based on the

15 scope of authority that we have.

16 Some of the concerns that you

17 have, based on my judgment, appears to be

18 beyond the scope of this board.

19 So what we have before us is

20 what we have to make a decision on, and

21 perhaps your concerns may have been -- may be

22 tailored for a different body and not this

23 particular one. Notwithstanding that we will

24 still consider all the concerns that you have

25 raised in making our decision today. And I'm



1 certain that the members will appreciate the

2 fact that you came here and you have just

3 voiced your concern and opinion.

4 However, the -- some of the

5 concerns are beyond the scope of our

6 jurisdiction.

7 That being said, did we have

8 any further discussion on this particular

9 case?

10 (No audible responses.)

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I

12 will entertain a motion. Thank you, Member

13 Ghannam, please.

14 MR. GHANNAM: I'm going to move

15 to approve the variance as requested in Item

16 5, which is Case No. PZ-12-0052, for 47045

17 Pontiac Trail, the Kroger fuel station.

18 There are unique

19 circumstances or physical conditions of the

20 property, such as the narrowness, shape,

21 topography, or similar conditions, and the

22 need for the variance is not due to the

23 applicant's personal or economic difficulty.

24 The need is not self-created,

25 strict compliance with the regulations



1 governing the area setback, frontage and so

2 forth, will unreasonably prevent the property

3 owner from using the property for a permitted

4 purpose, or will render conformity with those

5 regulations unnecessarily burdensome.

6 The requested variance is the

7 minimum variance necessary to do substantial

8 justice to the applicant as well as to the

9 property owners in the district. And the

10 requested variance will not cause an adverse

11 impact on surrounding property, property

12 values, or the use or enjoyment of the

13 property in the neighborhood or zoning

14 district.

15 MR. FERRELL: Second that.

16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that a

17 motion has been made and seconded, is there

18 any questions regarding the motion?

19 (No audible responses.)

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none -- I'm

21 sorry, city attorney?

22 MS. SAARELA: I would suggest

23 that adding some of the facts as set forth on

24 the application regarding the need for the

25 variance, just adding the factual basis to



1 the motion that's proposed.

2 MR. GHANNAM: I could do that,

3 really -- based on the applicant's physical

4 application and the presentation, can I just

5 simply adopt their reasoning?

6 MS. SAARELA: As set forth in --

7 I mean, I would put into the motion because

8 if there is any actual challenge, the court

9 is going to look at the language of motion

10 rather than going back the applicant's

11 application.

12 Their proposal -- their

13 proposed reasons are set forth in their

14 application, sections nine and ten. If you

15 would just sort of incorporate those into the

16 motion.

17 MR. GHANNAM: In addition to the

18 basis I have already stated, because I do

19 adopt the applicant's written proposal as

20 well as their statements here on the record

21 today, given the configuration of this

22 particular property, it is clear that the

23 tanker trucks cannot properly access the site

24 without the proposed and right in and right

25 out approach into Pontiac Trail. These



1 tankers, even the person who objected, could

2 be dangerous we certainly don't want them

3 spilling product or getting into accidents,

4 so their safe ingress and egress are

5 extremely important.

6 Additionally, the proximity

7 of the site's northwest approach is too close

8 to the Pontiac Trial and the southeast

9 approach cannot accommodate safe tanker

10 ingress and egress and circulation around the

11 site.

12 I mean, these are very

13 critical factors, and based on what

14 applicant's has already done with the

15 planning commission in reducing the amount

16 and the scope of their variance, to me this

17 is the only logical conclusion.

18 MS. SAARELA: Thank you.

19 MR. FERRELL: I second that.

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Seeing

21 that a motion has been made and modified, and

22 also seconded, do we have any questions

23 regarding the motion?

24 (No audible responses.)

25 Seeing none, Ms. Pawlowski,



1 please call the roll.

2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

3 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?


6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?


10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes

11 four to zero.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very

13 much.

14 MR. PISKO: Thank you.

15 CHAIRMAN IBE: That concludes all

16 the cases before the board this evening.

17 That brings us to other

18 matters. Do we have any other matters that

19 the board needs to take up at this time?


21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Other than having

22 a great Thanksgiving and hopefully that the

23 Lions make us proud and win, I will entertain

24 a motion to adjourn, absent any other

25 matters.



1 MR. GEDEON: So moved.

2 MR. GHANNAM: Second.

3 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those in favor

4 say aye.


6 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those opposed?

7 (No audible responses.)

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, the

9 meeting is adjourned.

10 (The meeting was adjourned at 7:55 p.m.)

11 ** ** **


















2 ss.


4 I, Jennifer L. Wall, Notary

5 Public within and for the County of Oakland,

6 State of Michigan, do hereby certify that the

7 Minutes of the Zoning Board of Appeals

8 meeting was taken before me in the above

9 entitled matter, at the aforementioned time

10 and place; that the testimony given by said

11 participants was stenographically recorded in

12 the presence of said witnesses and afterward

13 transcribed by computer under my personal

14 supervision, and that the said minutes is a

15 full, true and correct transcript of the

16 proceedings. I further certify that I am not

17 connected by blood or marriage with any of

18 the parties. IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have

19 hereunto set my hand at the City of Walled

20 Lake, County of Oakland, State of Michigan.

21 _________________________

22 Jennifer L. Wall CSR-4183

23 Oakland County, Michigan

My Commission Expires

24 11/12/15