REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matter of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, October 9, 2012
REPORTED BY: Jennifer L. Wall, Certified Shorthand Reporter
1 Novi, Michigan.
2 Tuesday, October 9, 2012
3 7:00 p.m.
4 ** ** **
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Good evening.
6 Welcome to the October 9, 2012 Zoning Board
7 of Appeals meeting for the City of Novi.
8 Can we please rise for the
9 Pledge of Allegiance.
10 (Pledge of Allegiance recited.)
11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Can we please have
12 the roll call.
13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
14 MR. GEDEON: (No audible response.)
15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
16 MR. GERBLICK: Here.
17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
18 MR. GHANNAM: Here.
19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Present.
21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
22 MS. KRIEGER: Here.
23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Sanghvi, is
24 absent, excused.
25 Member Skelcy?
1 MS. SKELCY: (No audible response.)
2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
3 MR. FERRELL: Here.
4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.
5 Before we begin, I just want to let those in
6 the audience know that we do have two members
7 that are absent today, so if any reason
8 anyone would like to have a full board
9 present, they can always request to have the
10 case tabled.
11 However, any decision that is
12 made today is final.
13 The agenda for today's meeting
14 can be found in the back of the room, for
15 those who need to follow the agenda.
16 When you are called to come
17 forward, please make sure that you when you
18 come to the podium, you state your name, as
19 well as spell it for our court reporter, the
20 record keeper, and you are allowed to five
21 minutes to make a presentation, then may be
22 allotted extra time at the discretion of the
24 Let's move forward. Do we
25 have any modifications as to the agenda
2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: No.
3 CHAIRMAN IBE: None.
4 MR. GHANNAM: I move to approve.
5 MR. GERBLICK: Second.
6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: A motion has been
7 made and seconded, all of those in favor say
9 THE BOARD: Aye.
10 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those opposed?
11 (No audible responses.)
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: The ayes carry.
13 (Whereupon Member Gedeon entered the hearing
15 CHAIRMAN IBE: And the minutes for
16 September 11th, 2012 meeting. Do we have any
17 modifications or any reason to change it?
18 (No audible responses.)
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will
20 entertain a motion, please.
21 MS. KRIEGER: So moved to approve
22 the minutes.
23 MR. GERBLICK: Second.
24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
25 been made and seconded, all those in favor
1 say aye.
2 THE BOARD: Aye.
3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Those against?
4 (No audible responses.)
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, the
6 minutes for September 11th, 2012 is hereby
7 approved and adopted.
8 Is there anyone in the
9 audience who would like to make a public
10 remark at this time? Now public remarks are
11 limited to just public remarks and not to any
12 cases that are before the Board.
13 (No audible responses.)
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, we will
15 close the public remarks section and move to
16 our first case for today.
17 The first case is Case No.
18 PZ12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger,
19 Inc.. Can the applicant please come to the
21 It appears we don't have the
22 applicant here. Do you suggest we pass on
23 this or do we move onto --
24 MS. SAARELA: You can pass on it
25 for now, see if the applicant shows up.
1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We will
2 go onto the second case scheduled for today.
3 That is Case No. PZ-12-043, 44500 Grand
5 Is the applicant here? Please
6 come to the podium. And please state your
7 full name, spell your last name for the
8 record. And if you're not an attorney, raise
9 your hand so you can be sworn in. Thank you.
10 (Whereupon Member Skelcy entered the hearing
12 MS. KRIEGER: Please state and
13 spell your name for the reporter.
14 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner,
16 MS. KRIEGER: Thank you. In Case
17 No. PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue,
18 do you swear to tell the truth in this case?
19 MR. GILTNER: I do. I'm also the
20 next on the list, too, for 44700.
21 I'm looking at a large parcel
22 of real estate, a piece of property in Novi,
23 205,000 feet of a three-building campus
24 previously used for manufacturing, and I can
25 use all the market help I can get.
1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Is that it?
2 MR. GILTNER: Yes.
3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Madam
4 Secretary, would you please read any
6 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.
7 PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue, 33
8 were mailed, zero returns, zero responses.
9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there
10 anyone in the audience who would like to make
11 a comment or remark regarding this particular
12 case before the board?
13 (No audible responses.)
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will
15 turn to the city to get any opinion regarding
16 this particular case?
17 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add,
18 Mr. Chairman, other than that the signs are
19 listed in the description as wing signs,
20 meaning they would be V shaped and have two
21 faces. The way that the Novi ordinance is
22 written, if the wider end of those two faces
23 is more than 24 inches apart, they would be
24 considered -- each face would be considered
1 I confirmed with
2 Mr. Alexander, I believe, in the petitioner's
3 office, that the wing signs will not be wider
4 than 24 inches at the rear, so at the widest
5 point, so they will count as a single area.
6 I'd be happy to answer any
8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank
9 you very much. City attorney?
10 MS. SAARELA: We have nothing to
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.
13 I will now open this up for
14 discussion for the board. Member Skelcy?
15 MS. SKELCY: So I understand, you
16 want five signs?
17 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five
18 signs. No. I mean, my point and reason for
19 being here is to have a huge freeway sign.
20 That's what I'm looking to get.
21 MS. SKELCY: So you're looking for
22 what is marked on number five on this?
23 MR. GILTNER: I don't have your
24 numbers there, but if you say so.
25 MS. SKELCY: Do you have other
1 signs on the property currently?
2 MR. GILTNER: I do. I think I have
3 got -- it's a three building campus. I have
4 got three signs on the entire parcel right
6 I don't need anymore. I have
7 got -- I think two signs on Grand River and
8 one in front of the third building. All I
9 really need is a large freeway sign.
10 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes?
12 MR. BOULARD: The sign that's
13 allowed by right, there is two parcels. The
14 drawing that was presented with the two cases
15 shows both properties. It shows a total of
16 five signs, including I believe the one that
17 you mentioned along the freeway.
18 But by right, the signs are --
19 the single signs allowed by right for each
20 property is only 16 square feet.
21 If I understand correctly, the
22 existing signs that you got along Grand River
23 and the other signs on the campus exceed
24 that, and so between the two properties you
25 do need variances for five signs.
1 MR. GILTNER: That's why I am here.
2 Again, another -- the smaller sign that you
3 just described, the wing sign, I'm not
4 interested in getting another small sign on
5 the property. I'd like to keep what I have
6 and put a large sign on the freeway, that's
7 why I'm here.
8 MR. BOULARD: So there are the five
9 signs, all five of them are oversized.
10 MS. SKELCY: So was there a
11 variance granted for the others that are
12 already there?
13 MR. BOULARD: No, not at this
14 point. I believe what went up recently is a
15 mock sign.
16 MR. GHANNAM: I have got another
17 question, for this particular parcel, for
18 44500 Grand River, you've got one 24 square
19 foot and one 48 square foot.
20 Is that -- those were the two
21 signs, the mock signs that are up there
22 currently, correct?
23 MR. BOULARD: I can't confirm that.
24 I have not been out to verify the mock signs.
25 MR. GHANNAM: On this particular
1 parcel for this case, those two signs will be
2 facing Grand River, I presume, correct? The
3 ones that you are asking for?
4 MR. GILTNER: Yes.
5 MR. GHANNAM: Because you said you
6 want one for the freeway, but this particular
7 parcel in this case is the one for Grand
9 MR. GILTNER: Does the next item on
10 your list request a sign facing the freeway?
11 MR. GHANNAM: Well, we haven't
12 gotten there, but I believe it's for the same
13 thing, with the exception it says two 24
14 square foot signs and one 48 square foot
16 So this one is requesting one
17 24 --
18 MR. GILTNER: I think that's
19 what's -- they're already -- I guess the
20 request, I'm asking to keep what's there.
21 MR. GHANNAM: What's the size --
22 well, maybe we haven't --
23 MR. GILTNER: I'm going to assume
24 the next case that's the freeway sign, that's
25 the reason I am here.
1 MS. SKELCY: Clarification, when I
2 was looking at this, Case No. 12-045, that is
3 three signs, one is the freeway sign, it
4 appears, and then Case No. 12-044, just
5 requests the same size, but only one of each.
6 As opposed to two 24, which is in Case No.
8 MR. GILTNER: Do you have a
10 MS. SKELCY: I am making a
11 clarification. Also I can't support having
12 five signs.
13 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five
15 MS. SKELCY: So what are you asking
16 for today exactly, sir?
17 MR. GILTNER: A freeway sign.
18 MS. SKELCY: That's it?
19 MR. GILTNER: Again, and keeping
20 the signs I already have.
21 MS. SKELCY: You can't keep those
22 signs because they violate an ordinance.
23 MR. GILTNER: There is three --
24 apparently there is two parcels, so can I not
25 have a Grand River sign on each of the other
1 two parcels and have a freeway sign?
2 MS. SKELCY: The issue is with the
3 size. Can you explain this for us, please.
4 MR. BOULARD: Yeah. Each parcel is
5 allowed a sign of 16 feet, the maximum 10
6 feet height, one per parcel.
7 MR. GILTNER: Okay.
8 MR. BOULARD: As I understand, the
9 two -- the signs that you have up currently
10 are larger than that. So in order to remain,
11 they would need to have a variance.
12 MR. GILTNER: Then I'm requesting a
14 MR. BOULARD: You're requesting
15 variances for all five signs across the two
17 MR. GILTNER: Okay.
18 MS. SKELCY: Okay. I can't support
19 a request for that many signs on this
20 property especially given the size. I could
21 agree to one large sign for the freeway, but
22 the others I believe should be the regular
23 size, which is 16 square feet.
24 And I don't think you need two
25 on Grand River, quite frankly. I think you
1 only need one on the 44500 and 44550
2 property, I mean it's just duplicating what
3 you have already have.
4 MR. GILTNER: Right. I agree.
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Member Gedeon?
6 MR. GEDEON: Never mind. My point
7 was made earlier by the other members.
8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes, Member Krieger?
9 MS. KRIEGER: I drove by the site
10 today, I found six signs. I found on
11 Grand River the two signs, one being a
12 V-shape sign, and then in the parcel itself,
13 there is one where No. 1 is listed, there is
14 one on the ground where No. 2 is listed, and
15 then facing the freeway on No. 2 building,
16 there is one there, and then also on the
17 44700 there was a sign.
18 And then when I drove down the
19 expressway, I could hardly see that sign
20 anyway. I could only see the parcel and that
21 was it.
22 MR. GILTNER: There is no sign on
23 the freeway right now.
24 MS. KRIEGER: On the buildings. I
25 counted six signs today.
1 MR. GILTNER: I think one of the
2 signs you saw from the freeway was a sign on
3 a different property.
4 MS. KRIEGER: Anyway, I agree with
5 the previous speaker, that one sign on
6 Grand River V-shaped takes care of anybody
7 that had any interest in one parcel and one
8 sign. And then the other ones there, that
9 will get to it when we get to that case.
10 Thank you.
11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member
13 MR. GILTNER: So the asking price
14 for the parcel is $7,800,000. I guess what
15 I'm requesting is to keep a large sign on
16 Grand River and not order still yet another
17 sign, which would be very small.
18 We will be glad to take one of
19 the signs off Grand River, but I'd like to
20 keep the larger one at Grand River.
21 MR. GHANNAM: That's the 48 square
22 foot one?
23 MR. GILTNER: Yes.
24 MR. GHANNAM: Just so I'm clear, we
25 got a lot of stuff going on. You want one on
1 Grand River and one on the freeway?
2 MR. GILTNER: That would be fine.
3 MR. GHANNAM: I know we haven't
4 gotten to the freeway parcel yet, but --
5 MR. GILTNER: Just not small ones.
6 It's a very large parcel, you know,
7 Grand River frontage, I-96 frontage, I'd like
8 to have the signs that are visible.
9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that.
10 And actually, I could agree to that, or
11 support one sign on Grand River, but this
12 particular case, again, we will get to the
13 freeway sign when we get to it, but I
14 understand this is a very large parcel in
15 this kind of unique area.
16 CHAIRMAN IBE: So if I understand,
17 are we -- is the applicant agreeing to just
18 one sign at Grand River for this particular
19 case before us right now, is that my
21 MR. GHANNAM: I believe so. That's
22 what I would be willing to support.
23 MR. GILTNER: That would be one.
24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Just one?
25 MR. GILTNER: As long as it's a
1 larger sign, yes.
2 CHAIRMAN IBE: We can do --
3 MS. SAARELA: You can give -- grant
4 whatever variance that you believe is
5 appropriate as long as it's what he is
6 requesting or lesser.
7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We have
8 anything further?
9 MS. SKELCY: How long would you
10 want this sign up for?
11 MR. GILTNER: A year listing.
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: So what are the
13 prospects that this property will be sold by
14 then within a year? I mean, do you have a --
15 MR. GILTNER: Fifty percent odds.
16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Fifty percent. Very
18 Do we have any further
19 conversation or is anyone willing to
20 motion --
21 MR. GHANNAM: I will make a motion.
22 I will make a motion in Item
23 No. 2, Case No. PZ-12-044, that we approve
24 the applicant's request for one 48 square
25 foot sign on the premises for a period of one
1 year, or when the property is sold, whichever
2 is less.
3 The request is based on
4 circumstances or features that are
5 exceptional and unique to the property and
6 don't result in the conditions that exist in
7 the area.
8 The failure to grant relief
9 will unreasonably prevent or limit the use of
10 the property. The grant of relief will
11 result in the use of the structure that is
12 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with
13 adjacent properties, and will result in
14 substantial justice to the applicant.
15 MS. SKELCY: Second.
16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
17 been made and seconded -- Member Gedeon?
18 MR. GEDEON: Do we need to specify
19 the placement of the sign?
20 MR. GHANNAM: I don't believe so.
21 I don't generally like to make that part of
22 the motion because it's such a large and long
24 Would you like me to --
25 because we are not approving the second sign
1 that's requested, would you like --
2 MS. SAARELA: We need to do a
3 second motion denying that one.
4 MR. GHANNAM: I will leave that
5 motion as is.
6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Seeing
7 that a motion has been made and seconded,
8 does anybody have any further conversation?
9 Madam Secretary, please call
10 the roll.
11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
12 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
14 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
16 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
20 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
22 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
24 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
1 to zero.
2 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.
3 MR. GHANNAM: Then I will make the
4 second motion in Case PZ-12-044, to deny the
5 request for the additional 24 square foot
7 Because the request is not
8 based on circumstances or features that are
9 exceptional or unique to the property for
10 that particular sign.
11 The failure to grant relief
12 will not unreasonably prevent the limited use
13 of that property and the grant of relief will
14 result in a use of the structure that is
15 incompatible and unreasonably interferes with
16 the adjacent property.
17 MS. SKELCY: Second.
18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
19 been made and seconded, any need for further
21 Seeing none, Madam Secretary,
22 please call the roll.
23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
24 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
1 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
3 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
7 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
9 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
11 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
13 to zero.
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.
15 Having our third case for
16 today, Case No. PZ-12-045, 44700 Grand River.
17 I believe it is the same
18 applicant. Can you please state your again
19 for the record.
20 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner,
22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.
23 PZ-12-045, for 44700 Grand River, do you
24 swear to tell the truth in this case?
25 MR. GILTNER: I do.
1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Go ahead, sir.
2 MR. GILTNER: Again, same parcel,
3 at this juncture, I am looking for a very
4 large freeway sign to advertise three
5 buildings totaling 205,000 square feet of
6 manufacturing crane space.
7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.
8 Anyone in the audience who
9 would like to make a comment regarding this
10 particular case before the Board?
11 (No audible responses.)
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will
13 ask Madam Secretary to please read into the
14 record any correspondence.
15 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. PZ-12-045
16 for 44700 Grand River, there were 21 mailed,
17 zero return, zero responses.
18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much,
19 Madam Secretary.
20 I will now turn to the city
21 for any comments.
22 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.
23 MS. SAARELA: Nothing to add.
24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I will
25 now open up this to the Board for
1 conversation. Yes, Member Ghannam?
2 MR. GHANNAM: Just as I stated in
3 the other case, I have no problem with 48
4 square foot.
5 In this particular property,
6 you intend to put the 48 square foot on the
7 actual freeway side of the building, correct?
8 MR. GILTNER: Correct.
9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that.
10 And because it's so large in terms of a
11 complex, I have no problem with that.
12 But with the other ones, I
13 assume you're not interested in the other 24
14 square foot? You want freeway --
15 MR. GILTNER: The ones I care about
16 are the large sign on Grand River and a large
17 sign on the freeway.
18 MR. GHANNAM: With that in mind, I
19 would be willing to support that. I have no
20 other comments.
21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.
22 Member Skelcy?
23 MS. SKELCY: Would you agree to a
24 one year limitation?
25 MR. GILTNER: I kind of -- I guess
1 I sort of assumed I would be back in a year
2 if I hadn't sold it in a year.
3 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member
5 Skelcy. Do we have any additional questions
6 or comments regarding this particular case?
7 Seeing none, I will taken a
9 MR. GHANNAM: If not, I will make a
10 motion. I will make two motions, one for
11 approval, one for denial.
12 First I will make a motion in
13 Case No. 12-045, for 44700 Grand River to
14 approve the applicant's request for one 48
15 square foot sign that will be front of the
16 I-96 freeway side of the building, for a
17 period of one year or when the property is
19 The request is based on
20 circumstances or features that are
21 exceptional and unique to the property and do
22 not result in conditions that exist generally
23 in the city.
24 Failure to grant relief will
25 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the
1 property and will result in substantial more
2 than a mere inconvenience.
3 The grant of relief will not
4 result in the use of the structure that is
5 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes
6 with adjacent or surrounding properties.
7 MS. SKELCY: Second.
8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
9 been made and seconded, do we have any need
10 for further discussion?
11 Seeing none, please call roll.
12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
13 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
15 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
17 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
20 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
21 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
22 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
23 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
24 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
25 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
1 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
2 to zero.
3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.
4 MR. GILTNER: Can I -- the reason
5 for the number of signs that are currently
6 there, is you got three different buildings
7 that total 205,000 feet, one of the buildings
8 is 105, another building is 80,000 and
9 another building is 25,000. So each of the
10 signs in front of the property identifies
11 those particular sizes because they can be
12 leased individually.
13 I'm thinking that I do need
14 the number of signs that I originally
16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, I am quite sure
17 you have been following the procedures since
18 we started, and it appears you now have taken
19 a change of heart, is that what I am hearing?
20 MR. GILTNER: Well, I didn't see
21 much need for all those signs in the
22 beginning, but now after thinking about it, I
23 think a sign in front of each of the
24 buildings identifying that particular size of
25 the building is kind of important.
1 MR. GEDEON: Well, you've got 48
2 square feet to work with. I mean, I think
3 it's just a matter of adjusting the text on
4 your sign, you know, on 48 square feet that
5 you have to identify the properties, the
6 building, so the options for leasing as you
7 see fit.
8 MR. GILTNER: There would be no way
9 to fit on that sign available 205,000 square
10 feet or 105,000 square feet or 80,000 square
11 feet or 25,000 square feet, wouldn't be
13 MR. GHANNAM: Just a quick comment,
14 your building No. 2 does not face Grand River
15 or 96, it faces a railroad, which you're not
16 going to have any people driving the rails.
17 I think that's --
18 MR. GILTNER: That could be a very
19 small sign, just saying 25,000 feet.
20 MR. GHANNAM: You wouldn't have
21 people coming onto the campus to even look at
22 that building? They would either be caught
23 by either a sign on 96 or a sign on Grand
25 MR. GILTNER: Correct.
1 MS. SKELCY: I mean, I don't want
2 to tell you how to do your signs, but you
3 could certainly say, up to 80,000 square
4 feet, or an area of square footage. I mean,
5 I think as Member Gedeon said, you can
6 accommodate language on the sign, maybe the
7 name of the broker is a little bit smaller,
8 but I think you can accommodate that.
9 Even if you made a request, I
10 think the feeling of the Board is, five signs
11 is too many.
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: City attorney,
13 what's your opinion in the change of heart?
14 MS. SAARELA: I mean, the change of
15 heart obviously is one thing, it's whether or
16 not your viewpoints have changed based on
17 what he said.
18 If none of your viewpoints
19 have changed, then they would be willing --
20 no need to change the motion.
21 If someone has changed their
22 mind, based on what he's told you, the
23 procedure would be -- would be for someone to
24 move for reconsideration, then you would need
25 a majority to agree to reconsider the motion,
1 and then you would have to put a new motion
2 on the table after that.
3 MR. GHANNAM: In my opinion, we
4 have already finished the first case. This
5 particular case, this parcel has two
6 buildings, and I think what he wants is one
7 for 96 and one for that second smaller
9 I'm still comfortable with
10 going ahead with and denying the balance of
11 the two -- that the Board was inclined to
12 approve one for the smaller building, I would
13 say that, not if, either way.
14 MR. GILTNER: I may respond --
15 CHAIRMAN IBE: No, sir, you may
16 not. Not at this time.
17 From my understanding, we do
18 have a motion already made, is that correct?
19 MR. GHANNAM: We already made a
20 motion to approve one large sign. Now the
21 balance of the two signs that are left, which
22 we can approve one or both, or deny one or
24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Sir,
25 just as a courtesy, what were you going to
1 say, sir?
2 MR. GILTNER: Well, if a sign says
3 up to 80,000 feet, the text on the sign would
4 actually be up to 205,000 feet. But somebody
5 looking for a 25,000 foot building, or even
6 an 80,000 foot building, is not real likely
7 to call on a sign that says up to 205,000
8 square feet.
9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.
10 Well, I'm bringing it back to the Board and
11 ask the Board's opinion as to which --
12 obviously, we feel the same way based on
13 prior discussion, then I will entertain a
14 motion to deny the other motion.
15 But if not, then if anybody
16 wishes to change their mind, we can move --
18 MR. GERBLICK: I think the overall
19 purpose of the sign is really to draw people
20 into the property, to take a look at the
22 MR. GILTNER: Right.
23 MR. GERBLICK: As Member Gedeon had
24 mentioned, you have to drive onto the
25 property to see the positioning of those
1 other signs in front of the other building,
2 so the original goal of having this sign has
3 pretty been accomplished by someone driving
4 onto the property.
5 MR. GILTNER: Right.
6 MR. GERBLICK: As the other members
7 have mentioned, you could change your wording
8 to read whatever you want.
9 But if that one highway sign
10 is an option of getting people onto the
11 property, I don't really see a need for any
12 additional signs. I would not support any
13 additional signs.
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Do we
15 have any additional questions or comments?
16 MR. GHANNAM: Well, I have no
17 problem with the 48 square foot sign on the
18 building facing 96, the second building which
19 he is requesting, a smaller 24 square foot
20 sign, I guess that's a toss-up.
21 No one is going to see it
22 driving by Grand River, no one is going to
23 see it by 96, you have got to be drawn to the
24 property to see it.
25 I understand the theory of
1 when someone is in, you want to advertise the
2 square footage of that building, and it is a
3 separate building, but like I said, that's
4 fairly a toss-up for me.
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will entertain a
6 motion, either based on what the Board
7 Members decide as --
8 MS. SKELCY: In the Case of 12-045,
9 44700 Grand River, I will move that we deny
10 the request for the two 24 square foot signs
11 and a singular 24 foot sign that was so
13 Based on the fact that the
14 request is not based upon circumstances or
15 features that are exceptional or unique to
16 the property and do not result in conditions
17 that generally exist in the city, and they
18 are not self-created.
19 The failure to grant relief
20 will not unreasonably prevent or limit the
21 use of the property.
22 The grant of relief will not
23 result in a use of the structure that is
24 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with
25 adjacent or surrounding properties.
1 This is based on the fact that
2 a large sign will be placed for this parcel
3 on the freeway and draw people into the
4 location and that the sign for the location
5 can indicate the one that has been granted
6 for 48 square feet, can indicate the square
7 footage of the parcels.
8 MR. GEDEON: Second.
9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
10 been made and seconded, do we have any need
11 for further discussion?
12 (No audible responses.)
13 Seeing none, please call the
15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
16 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
18 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
20 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
24 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
1 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
3 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
5 to zero.
6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Good
7 luck, sir.
8 That brings us to Case No.
9 PZ-12-046, 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite
10 C-118, JD Racing.
11 Will the applicant please come
12 to the podium.
13 Please remember to state your
14 full name and spell your last name for the
15 record. If you're not an attorney, please
16 raise your right hand to be sworn.
17 MR. KRULAS: My name is Kerry
18 Krulas, K-e-r-r-y, K-r-u-l-a-s.
19 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.
20 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite
21 118, do you swear to tell the truth in this
23 MR. KRULAS: I do. Before I begin,
24 I want to apologize to the committee, at the
25 owner's direction, we have as of last Friday
1 made a change in the size and sign place and
2 for both elevations receiving signs.
3 The updated drawings should
4 have been included in your packet. I did
5 speak with Frank prior to the meeting and he
6 was generous enough to allow us to make this
7 last minute change.
8 If you don't have those
9 drawings, I can place them on the screen here
10 for you.
11 The new drawings shows a
12 reduction in size of the sign on the north
13 elevation facing Donaldson, for what we were
14 originally requesting was 403 square foot
15 down to 165.4 square feet.
16 The east elevation facing
17 Twelve Mile remains the same size, in
18 addition, the grid work that was originally
19 proposed in which the signs were attached,
20 has been eliminated.
21 We are here to request a
22 variance on two items tonight. The first,
23 seeing an increase of allowable square
24 footage on the north elevation facing
25 Donaldson Drive, from the maximum of 65 feet
1 square feet to 165 feet, four square feet,
2 and for an additional sign to be placed on
3 the east elevation facing Twelve Mile Road
4 that is of the same size.
5 We are seeking the variances
6 for several reasons. The east elevation
7 facing Twelve Mile Road and having the most
8 impact from an advertising standpoint, in our
9 opinion, we need a size increase in order to
10 be seen effectively at a distance of
11 approximately 2,500 feet to Twelve Mile and
12 also take into account the speed of the
13 traffic on that road.
14 A similar example of scale and
15 mounting height can be found at Dick's
16 Sporting Goods, just adjacent to JD Racing on
17 Twelve Mile Road.
18 The Donaldson Drive elevation
19 has a couple of issues. The first being the
20 distance of the facade to the Donaldson Drive
21 and West Oaks Drive intersection, that is
22 approximately 750 feet. At that distance, a
23 sign with any less square footage would be
24 unreadable, and it would be esthetically too
25 small in relation to the building's facade.
1 The length of that facade, by the way, is
2 246 feet. Anything smaller would fail to
3 draw attention to that elevation.
4 We'd especially like to take
5 advantage of the traffic that is normally
6 heading towards the Emagine Theater and any
7 other business located in that area of the
9 There is also a rise right
10 there at that intersection. And if anyone
11 has ever sat there, when you look over, you
12 would be able to see at least some lighted
13 interest in the sign we're proposing as we're
14 now placing it at about 40 feet, at its
15 highest point, on that Donaldson elevation.
16 Nonetheless, it would at the very least draw
17 some interest just from having some light
19 I just drove by that
20 intersection a few minutes ago before I came
21 here, and it's -- you can just see where our
22 sign would be placed. You can just fairly
23 peep and you will be able to see it.
24 In person you will feel that
25 our proposal does not unreasonably interfere
1 with adjacent or surrounding properties, and
2 will result in substantial justice being done
3 to our client, and adjacent and surrounding
4 properties is not inconsistent with the
5 spirit of the ordinance.
6 Our research of past variances
7 granted by the city for size increases within
8 the same immediate area includes Sears, the
9 Great Indoors, Powerhouse Gym, Dick's
10 Sporting Goods, ABC Warehouse, Emagine
11 Theater and the Putting Edge.
12 That concludes my opening
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. Is
15 there anyone in the audience who would like
16 to make a remark regarding this particular
18 (No audible responses.)
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will
20 now turn it over to Madam Secretary to read
21 into the record any correspondence.
22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.
23 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, it's
24 C-118, there were 29 mailed, zero returns,
25 zero responses.
1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Madam
2 Secretary. I will now turn to the city and
3 get any comments they have about this case.
4 MS. SAARELA: I have none.
5 MR. BOULARD: Just a question, if I
6 could, to the applicant?
7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Please.
8 MR. BOULARD: The original request
9 was for one sign of 165.4 square feet and the
10 other was 403 square feet.
11 When we talked last, I
12 understood that the request was modified to
13 two signs of the 165.4 square feet that was
14 the smaller of the two, the original
16 MR. KRULAS: That's correct.
17 MR. BOULARD: The sign here that
18 you're showing us is smaller still. This is
19 158, instead of being 103 by 168, it's 96 by
21 So I guess my question is,
22 what is it that you actually want?
23 MR. KRULAS: You know what, I
24 apologize. It looks like I may have put the
25 wrong drawing up there. My apologies.
1 MR. BOULARD: Just wanted to make
2 sure you're getting what you're asking for.
3 Nothing further. Thank you.
4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. I will
5 now open up this case to the Board for
6 discussion. Anyone care to ask a question or
8 MR. GEDEON: I will make just a
9 comment. I guess I'm inclined to go ahead
10 with this even though 165, you know, seems
11 very large. We have had cases like this in
12 the past, where there is considerable amount
13 of white space. That, you know, countered
14 against the application.
15 So it's really -- in my
16 opinion, you know, it's not as overpowering
17 as a 165 square foot sign could be. So I
18 don't really have a problem with this at all.
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member
21 Yes, Member Skelcy?
22 MS. SKELCY: Can we restrict this
23 to this particular tenant?
24 MS. SAARELA: You can. Just in
25 general, Zoning Board of Appeals law
1 restricting it to the tenant is not
2 preferred, it usually runs with the land, but
3 this doesn't prevent you or prohibit you from
4 doing that, if that's what you feel is
6 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.
7 MR. GHANNAM: I understand the
8 Twelve Mile request, it's the main
9 thoroughfare, but the side street, the people
10 really maneuver around the complex, but I
11 understand more is better, bigger is better,
12 all of that, but I'm just having trouble with
13 that side one, such a large one at that.
14 MR. KRULAS: This is the north
15 elevation we are talking about?
16 MR. GHANNAM: It would be the east.
17 I have no problem with the north. It's the
18 east elevation.
19 MR. KRULAS: Right, and I can
20 certainly see that. Basically what we did,
21 when we were surveying this property to begin
22 with, there was a couple of things that we
23 did, and what we did, we sent a truck out to
24 scope out the site, and we do this on several
25 jobs, especially when we are doing a survey,
1 we will go out with a light and usually it's
2 just a hand fluorescent light, and we will
3 hold it at the elevation of the right part of
4 the building, then we start driving up and
5 down the road.
6 This sign has elements that
7 light, it is not entirely lit. JD Racing and
8 the red scoop design are the main
9 illumination and there are some exposed neon
10 parts that outline the flag, but the entire
11 face of the sign doesn't light, so, you know,
12 during the day, yes, definitely, I mean, it
13 doesn't appear -- I mean, to me, just my
14 opinion, it doesn't appear that large because
15 I am trying to draw any kind of attention at
16 that intersection, we just feel that at the
17 very least gives some idea that there is
18 something going on over there.
19 And, you know, I can't assume
20 that the intersection that people generally
21 are, you know, going to Emagine Theater or
22 any number of restaurants, if you hang a left
23 there. You know, that's kind of an
24 entertainment district of that area. Whereas
25 JD Racing and, you know, Dick's Sporting
1 Goods, that's more service oriented.
2 MR. GHANNAM: Isn't there windows
3 on the east side of the building where people
4 can see inside what's going on, or no?
5 MR. KRULAS: There are windows
6 there actually. It's just that from the
7 distance, which is about 400 feet from
8 Donaldson, it's really hard to see. It's
9 really hard to see on anything. It's hard to
10 look inside, you know, you can't see inside.
11 MR. GHANNAM: There is not going to
12 be an entrance on the Donaldson, east
13 elevation, is there?
14 MR. KRULAS: There is. That's the
15 main entrance actually.
16 MR. GHANNAM: Is there an entrance
17 on Twelve Mile also?
18 MR. KRULAS: No, there is not.
19 MR. GHANNAM: So the main entrance
20 is going to be on Donaldson or at least
21 facing Donaldson?
22 MR. KRULAS: Yes.
23 MR. GHANNAM: I don't have any
24 other questions. Thank you.
25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member
2 MR. FERRELL: I got a question.
3 You said you held up a light for the sign, is
4 that the actual size that you're proposing,
5 or is it just a light to see the lighting --
6 MR. KRULAS: It was just a light to
7 kind of see in broad daylight, the evening at
8 that distance. You know, I mean, during the
9 day, it would -- it's easier to visualize
10 just because I can focus on the architecture
11 itself, but at night you can't see anything.
12 So it's just a tool that we
13 use to make sure that we're -- you know, in
14 this case, we are using some exposure on the
15 sign. I want to make sure it would even be
16 effective at that distance.
17 MR. FERRELL: I think there is
18 another drawing with a smaller sign. Have
19 you thought about that size as well?
20 MR. KRULAS: We did think about
21 that size, but what happens is even though we
22 do still get some light there, by nature of
23 their word mark, JD Racing becomes almost
24 invisible, indoor carting is somewhat
1 If you would like, I could put
2 that other rendering back up there, if you
3 like. That has the -- kind of shows that a
4 little bit.
5 MR. FERRELL: If you could.
6 MR. KRULAS: Sure. Let's see if we
7 can -- it's kind of a side-by-side, how about
8 we do this.
9 So basically, we are just
10 allowing a little less light, but it's
11 important -- I mean, since the distance we
12 are traveling from, we're relying mostly
13 on -- especially in evening on the globe,
14 whatever light we can generate. I just feel
15 that anything less would be -- would just be
16 a disservice, you know, for the money that's
17 being spent on the sign and so forth.
18 I just -- you know, I'm just
19 advocating for the customer. You know, I'm
20 trying to get the best value for the size.
21 I do understand, you know,
22 trying to keep it to the minimum. I wouldn't
23 suggest anything more than what I thought we
24 would need.
25 MR. FERRELL: Thank you.
1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there
2 any further questions or comments? If not, I
3 will entertain a motion.
4 MR. GEDEON: In the Case 12-046,
5 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite C118, JD
6 Racing, I move to approve a variance for two
7 wall signs of 165.4 square feet each.
8 This request is based on
9 circumstances and features that are
10 exceptional and unique to the property and do
11 not result from conditions that exist
12 generally in the city. Specifically, this
13 property has a very large footprint to it,
14 and are considerable distances from the
15 adjacent Twelve Mile Road and the other side
16 street, which is Donaldson Drive, yes.
17 Failure to grant relief will
18 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the
19 property, and will result in substantially
20 more than a mere inconvenience or inability
21 to obtain a higher economic or financial
23 The grant of relief will not
24 result in the use of structure that is
25 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes
1 with adjacent or surrounding properties,
2 specifically, this is a shopping district and
3 people are accustomed to larger signs in such
4 an area.
5 MS. KRIEGER: Second.
6 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will just -- in
7 terms of discussion, I would just recommend
8 you limit it to this tenant.
9 Here's the reason why. Even
10 though it's 165 foot, it doesn't look like
11 it, if you mention, and if this tenant left,
12 and get another tenant, 165 could be very
13 loud and obnoxious, so I would request that
14 you limit it to this tenant.
15 MR. GEDEON: That's fine. I would
16 like to amend the motion to limit the
17 variance to this tenant, and more
18 specifically to a sign that has a comparable
19 amount of white space to it.
20 MS. KRIEGER: I am agreeable.
21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that motion
22 has been made and seconded, any further
24 (No audible responses.)
25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, please
1 call the roll.
2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
3 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
5 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
7 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
11 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
13 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
15 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
17 to zero.
18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.
19 Good luck.
20 MR. KRULAS: Thank you very much.
21 CHAIRMAN IBE: We'll recall Case
22 No. PZ-12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger,
23 Inc.. Is the applicant here?
24 (No audible responses.)
25 MR. GHANNAM: I did see other
1 people walk in and walk out.
2 MR. BOULARD: I didn't recognize
4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that Case
5 PZ-12-043 was the first case on the agenda
6 today and was called and was passed and
7 called again, and seeing that no one has
8 appeared, do we need to entertain a motion to
9 either --
10 MS. SAARELA: You can either table
11 it or you can deny it.
12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Or we can deny it.
13 MR. GHANNAM: I have no problem --
14 we have gotten no response why they're not
15 here or no call, no show. I have no problem
16 moving to adjourn this to the November
17 hearing, since this is their first time up.
18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: November 20th.
19 MR. GHANNAM: I will move to
20 adjourn this to November 20th.
21 MS. SKELCY: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has
23 been made and seconded to move Case No.
24 PZ-12-043, 22700, do we have any further
1 If not, Madam Secretary please
2 call the roll again.
3 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?
4 MR. GEDEON: Yes.
5 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?
6 MR. GERBLICK: Yes.
7 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?
8 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.
9 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?
10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes.
11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?
12 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?
14 MS. SKELCY: Yes.
15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?
16 MR. FERRELL: Yes.
17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven
18 to zero.
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.
20 That concludes our cases for today.
21 That will bring us to other
22 matters. Do we have any other matters that
23 the Board should take up at this time?
24 MR. BOULARD: Just if you don't
25 mind, for the case that was adjourned, if you
1 wouldn't mind -- you had the Zoning Board of
2 Appeals -- or the planner memo that was in
3 the gray folder, also if you wanted to use
4 the P case in there, we will save the paper.
5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.
6 So noted.
7 Do we have any additional
8 matters to be discussed by the Board?
9 (No audible responses.)
10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will
11 entertain a motion to adjourn.
12 MR. GHANNAM: So moved.
13 MR. GERBLICK: Second.
14 CHAIRMAN IBE: All in favor say
16 THE BOARD: Aye.
17 CHAIRMAN IBE: All opposed?
18 (No audible responses.)
19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, this
20 meeting is hereby adjourned.
21 (The meeting was adjourned at 7:51 p.m.)
22 ** ** **
1 STATE OF MICHIGAN )
2 ) ss.
3 COUNTY OF OAKLAND )
4 I, Jennifer L. Wall, Notary Public within and for the
5 County of Oakland, State of Michigan, do hereby certify that the
6 witness whose attached deposition was taken before me in the
7 above entitled matter was by me duly sworn at the aforementioned
8 time and place; that the testimony given by said witness was
9 stenographically recorded in the presence of said witness and
10 afterward transcribed by computer under my personal supervision,
11 and that the said deposition is a full, true and correct
12 transcript of the testimony given by the witness.
13 I further certify that I am not connected by blood or
14 marriage with any of the parties or their attorneys, and that I
15 am not an employee of either of them, nor financially interested
16 in the action.
17 IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand at the
18 City of Walled Lake, County of Oakland, State of Michigan.
21 ________________ _________________________
Date Jennifer L. Wall CSR-4183
22 Oakland County, Michigan
My Commission Expires 11/12/15