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Tuesday, October 9, 2012

Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matter of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, October 9, 2012

Ricky Ibe, Chairman
Linda Krieger
Jeffrey Gedeon
Brent Ferrell
James Gerblick
Donna Skelcy
David Ghannam

Charles Boulard, Building Official
Beth Saarela, City Attorney
Coordinator: Angela Pawlowski, Recording Secretary

REPORTED BY: Jennifer L. Wall, Certified Shorthand Reporter

1 Novi, Michigan.

2 Tuesday, October 9, 2012

3 7:00 p.m.

4 ** ** **

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Good evening.

6 Welcome to the October 9, 2012 Zoning Board

7 of Appeals meeting for the City of Novi.

8 Can we please rise for the

9 Pledge of Allegiance.

10 (Pledge of Allegiance recited.)

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Can we please have

12 the roll call.

13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

14 MR. GEDEON: (No audible response.)

15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?

16 MR. GERBLICK: Here.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

18 MR. GHANNAM: Here.

19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?

20 CHAIRMAN IBE: Present.

21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

22 MS. KRIEGER: Here.

23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Sanghvi, is

24 absent, excused.

25 Member Skelcy?



1 MS. SKELCY: (No audible response.)

2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

3 MR. FERRELL: Here.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.

5 Before we begin, I just want to let those in

6 the audience know that we do have two members

7 that are absent today, so if any reason

8 anyone would like to have a full board

9 present, they can always request to have the

10 case tabled.

11 However, any decision that is

12 made today is final.

13 The agenda for today's meeting

14 can be found in the back of the room, for

15 those who need to follow the agenda.

16 When you are called to come

17 forward, please make sure that you when you

18 come to the podium, you state your name, as

19 well as spell it for our court reporter, the

20 record keeper, and you are allowed to five

21 minutes to make a presentation, then may be

22 allotted extra time at the discretion of the

23 Chair.

24 Let's move forward. Do we

25 have any modifications as to the agenda



1 today?



4 MR. GHANNAM: I move to approve.

5 MR. GERBLICK: Second.

6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: A motion has been

7 made and seconded, all of those in favor say

8 aye.


10 CHAIRMAN IBE: All those opposed?

11 (No audible responses.)

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: The ayes carry.

13 (Whereupon Member Gedeon entered the hearing

14 room.)

15 CHAIRMAN IBE: And the minutes for

16 September 11th, 2012 meeting. Do we have any

17 modifications or any reason to change it?

18 (No audible responses.)

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will

20 entertain a motion, please.

21 MS. KRIEGER: So moved to approve

22 the minutes.

23 MR. GERBLICK: Second.

24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

25 been made and seconded, all those in favor



1 say aye.


3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Those against?

4 (No audible responses.)

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, the

6 minutes for September 11th, 2012 is hereby

7 approved and adopted.

8 Is there anyone in the

9 audience who would like to make a public

10 remark at this time? Now public remarks are

11 limited to just public remarks and not to any

12 cases that are before the Board.

13 (No audible responses.)

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, we will

15 close the public remarks section and move to

16 our first case for today.

17 The first case is Case No.

18 PZ12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger,

19 Inc.. Can the applicant please come to the

20 podium.

21 It appears we don't have the

22 applicant here. Do you suggest we pass on

23 this or do we move onto --

24 MS. SAARELA: You can pass on it

25 for now, see if the applicant shows up.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We will

2 go onto the second case scheduled for today.

3 That is Case No. PZ-12-043, 44500 Grand

4 River.

5 Is the applicant here? Please

6 come to the podium. And please state your

7 full name, spell your last name for the

8 record. And if you're not an attorney, raise

9 your hand so you can be sworn in. Thank you.

10 (Whereupon Member Skelcy entered the hearing

11 room.)

12 MS. KRIEGER: Please state and

13 spell your name for the reporter.

14 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner,

15 G-i-l-t-n-e-r.

16 MS. KRIEGER: Thank you. In Case

17 No. PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue,

18 do you swear to tell the truth in this case?

19 MR. GILTNER: I do. I'm also the

20 next on the list, too, for 44700.

21 I'm looking at a large parcel

22 of real estate, a piece of property in Novi,

23 205,000 feet of a three-building campus

24 previously used for manufacturing, and I can

25 use all the market help I can get.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Is that it?


3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Madam

4 Secretary, would you please read any

5 correspondence.

6 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.

7 PZ-12-044, for 44500 Grand River Avenue, 33

8 were mailed, zero returns, zero responses.

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there

10 anyone in the audience who would like to make

11 a comment or remark regarding this particular

12 case before the board?

13 (No audible responses.)

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will

15 turn to the city to get any opinion regarding

16 this particular case?

17 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add,

18 Mr. Chairman, other than that the signs are

19 listed in the description as wing signs,

20 meaning they would be V shaped and have two

21 faces. The way that the Novi ordinance is

22 written, if the wider end of those two faces

23 is more than 24 inches apart, they would be

24 considered -- each face would be considered

25 individually.



1 I confirmed with

2 Mr. Alexander, I believe, in the petitioner's

3 office, that the wing signs will not be wider

4 than 24 inches at the rear, so at the widest

5 point, so they will count as a single area.

6 I'd be happy to answer any

7 questions.

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Thank

9 you very much. City attorney?

10 MS. SAARELA: We have nothing to

11 add.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.

13 I will now open this up for

14 discussion for the board. Member Skelcy?

15 MS. SKELCY: So I understand, you

16 want five signs?

17 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five

18 signs. No. I mean, my point and reason for

19 being here is to have a huge freeway sign.

20 That's what I'm looking to get.

21 MS. SKELCY: So you're looking for

22 what is marked on number five on this?

23 MR. GILTNER: I don't have your

24 numbers there, but if you say so.

25 MS. SKELCY: Do you have other



1 signs on the property currently?

2 MR. GILTNER: I do. I think I have

3 got -- it's a three building campus. I have

4 got three signs on the entire parcel right

5 now.

6 I don't need anymore. I have

7 got -- I think two signs on Grand River and

8 one in front of the third building. All I

9 really need is a large freeway sign.

10 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.


12 MR. BOULARD: The sign that's

13 allowed by right, there is two parcels. The

14 drawing that was presented with the two cases

15 shows both properties. It shows a total of

16 five signs, including I believe the one that

17 you mentioned along the freeway.

18 But by right, the signs are --

19 the single signs allowed by right for each

20 property is only 16 square feet.

21 If I understand correctly, the

22 existing signs that you got along Grand River

23 and the other signs on the campus exceed

24 that, and so between the two properties you

25 do need variances for five signs.



1 MR. GILTNER: That's why I am here.

2 Again, another -- the smaller sign that you

3 just described, the wing sign, I'm not

4 interested in getting another small sign on

5 the property. I'd like to keep what I have

6 and put a large sign on the freeway, that's

7 why I'm here.

8 MR. BOULARD: So there are the five

9 signs, all five of them are oversized.

10 MS. SKELCY: So was there a

11 variance granted for the others that are

12 already there?

13 MR. BOULARD: No, not at this

14 point. I believe what went up recently is a

15 mock sign.

16 MR. GHANNAM: I have got another

17 question, for this particular parcel, for

18 44500 Grand River, you've got one 24 square

19 foot and one 48 square foot.

20 Is that -- those were the two

21 signs, the mock signs that are up there

22 currently, correct?

23 MR. BOULARD: I can't confirm that.

24 I have not been out to verify the mock signs.

25 MR. GHANNAM: On this particular



1 parcel for this case, those two signs will be

2 facing Grand River, I presume, correct? The

3 ones that you are asking for?


5 MR. GHANNAM: Because you said you

6 want one for the freeway, but this particular

7 parcel in this case is the one for Grand

8 River.

9 MR. GILTNER: Does the next item on

10 your list request a sign facing the freeway?

11 MR. GHANNAM: Well, we haven't

12 gotten there, but I believe it's for the same

13 thing, with the exception it says two 24

14 square foot signs and one 48 square foot

15 sign.

16 So this one is requesting one

17 24 --

18 MR. GILTNER: I think that's

19 what's -- they're already -- I guess the

20 request, I'm asking to keep what's there.

21 MR. GHANNAM: What's the size --

22 well, maybe we haven't --

23 MR. GILTNER: I'm going to assume

24 the next case that's the freeway sign, that's

25 the reason I am here.



1 MS. SKELCY: Clarification, when I

2 was looking at this, Case No. 12-045, that is

3 three signs, one is the freeway sign, it

4 appears, and then Case No. 12-044, just

5 requests the same size, but only one of each.

6 As opposed to two 24, which is in Case No.

7 045.

8 MR. GILTNER: Do you have a

9 question?

10 MS. SKELCY: I am making a

11 clarification. Also I can't support having

12 five signs.

13 MR. GILTNER: I don't need five

14 signs.

15 MS. SKELCY: So what are you asking

16 for today exactly, sir?

17 MR. GILTNER: A freeway sign.

18 MS. SKELCY: That's it?

19 MR. GILTNER: Again, and keeping

20 the signs I already have.

21 MS. SKELCY: You can't keep those

22 signs because they violate an ordinance.

23 MR. GILTNER: There is three --

24 apparently there is two parcels, so can I not

25 have a Grand River sign on each of the other



1 two parcels and have a freeway sign?

2 MS. SKELCY: The issue is with the

3 size. Can you explain this for us, please.

4 MR. BOULARD: Yeah. Each parcel is

5 allowed a sign of 16 feet, the maximum 10

6 feet height, one per parcel.

7 MR. GILTNER: Okay.

8 MR. BOULARD: As I understand, the

9 two -- the signs that you have up currently

10 are larger than that. So in order to remain,

11 they would need to have a variance.

12 MR. GILTNER: Then I'm requesting a

13 variance.

14 MR. BOULARD: You're requesting

15 variances for all five signs across the two

16 parcels?

17 MR. GILTNER: Okay.

18 MS. SKELCY: Okay. I can't support

19 a request for that many signs on this

20 property especially given the size. I could

21 agree to one large sign for the freeway, but

22 the others I believe should be the regular

23 size, which is 16 square feet.

24 And I don't think you need two

25 on Grand River, quite frankly. I think you



1 only need one on the 44500 and 44550

2 property, I mean it's just duplicating what

3 you have already have.

4 MR. GILTNER: Right. I agree.

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Member Gedeon?

6 MR. GEDEON: Never mind. My point

7 was made earlier by the other members.

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Yes, Member Krieger?

9 MS. KRIEGER: I drove by the site

10 today, I found six signs. I found on

11 Grand River the two signs, one being a

12 V-shape sign, and then in the parcel itself,

13 there is one where No. 1 is listed, there is

14 one on the ground where No. 2 is listed, and

15 then facing the freeway on No. 2 building,

16 there is one there, and then also on the

17 44700 there was a sign.

18 And then when I drove down the

19 expressway, I could hardly see that sign

20 anyway. I could only see the parcel and that

21 was it.

22 MR. GILTNER: There is no sign on

23 the freeway right now.

24 MS. KRIEGER: On the buildings. I

25 counted six signs today.



1 MR. GILTNER: I think one of the

2 signs you saw from the freeway was a sign on

3 a different property.

4 MS. KRIEGER: Anyway, I agree with

5 the previous speaker, that one sign on

6 Grand River V-shaped takes care of anybody

7 that had any interest in one parcel and one

8 sign. And then the other ones there, that

9 will get to it when we get to that case.

10 Thank you.

11 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member

12 Krieger.

13 MR. GILTNER: So the asking price

14 for the parcel is $7,800,000. I guess what

15 I'm requesting is to keep a large sign on

16 Grand River and not order still yet another

17 sign, which would be very small.

18 We will be glad to take one of

19 the signs off Grand River, but I'd like to

20 keep the larger one at Grand River.

21 MR. GHANNAM: That's the 48 square

22 foot one?

23 MR. GILTNER: Yes.

24 MR. GHANNAM: Just so I'm clear, we

25 got a lot of stuff going on. You want one on



1 Grand River and one on the freeway?

2 MR. GILTNER: That would be fine.

3 MR. GHANNAM: I know we haven't

4 gotten to the freeway parcel yet, but --

5 MR. GILTNER: Just not small ones.

6 It's a very large parcel, you know,

7 Grand River frontage, I-96 frontage, I'd like

8 to have the signs that are visible.

9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that.

10 And actually, I could agree to that, or

11 support one sign on Grand River, but this

12 particular case, again, we will get to the

13 freeway sign when we get to it, but I

14 understand this is a very large parcel in

15 this kind of unique area.

16 CHAIRMAN IBE: So if I understand,

17 are we -- is the applicant agreeing to just

18 one sign at Grand River for this particular

19 case before us right now, is that my

20 understanding?

21 MR. GHANNAM: I believe so. That's

22 what I would be willing to support.

23 MR. GILTNER: That would be one.

24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Just one?

25 MR. GILTNER: As long as it's a



1 larger sign, yes.

2 CHAIRMAN IBE: We can do --

3 MS. SAARELA: You can give -- grant

4 whatever variance that you believe is

5 appropriate as long as it's what he is

6 requesting or lesser.

7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. We have

8 anything further?

9 MS. SKELCY: How long would you

10 want this sign up for?

11 MR. GILTNER: A year listing.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: So what are the

13 prospects that this property will be sold by

14 then within a year? I mean, do you have a --

15 MR. GILTNER: Fifty percent odds.

16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Fifty percent. Very

17 well.

18 Do we have any further

19 conversation or is anyone willing to

20 motion --

21 MR. GHANNAM: I will make a motion.

22 I will make a motion in Item

23 No. 2, Case No. PZ-12-044, that we approve

24 the applicant's request for one 48 square

25 foot sign on the premises for a period of one



1 year, or when the property is sold, whichever

2 is less.

3 The request is based on

4 circumstances or features that are

5 exceptional and unique to the property and

6 don't result in the conditions that exist in

7 the area.

8 The failure to grant relief

9 will unreasonably prevent or limit the use of

10 the property. The grant of relief will

11 result in the use of the structure that is

12 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with

13 adjacent properties, and will result in

14 substantial justice to the applicant.

15 MS. SKELCY: Second.

16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

17 been made and seconded -- Member Gedeon?

18 MR. GEDEON: Do we need to specify

19 the placement of the sign?

20 MR. GHANNAM: I don't believe so.

21 I don't generally like to make that part of

22 the motion because it's such a large and long

23 parcel.

24 Would you like me to --

25 because we are not approving the second sign



1 that's requested, would you like --

2 MS. SAARELA: We need to do a

3 second motion denying that one.

4 MR. GHANNAM: I will leave that

5 motion as is.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Seeing

7 that a motion has been made and seconded,

8 does anybody have any further conversation?

9 Madam Secretary, please call

10 the roll.

11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

12 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?


15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

16 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

20 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.

21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?

22 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

24 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven



1 to zero.

2 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

3 MR. GHANNAM: Then I will make the

4 second motion in Case PZ-12-044, to deny the

5 request for the additional 24 square foot

6 sign.

7 Because the request is not

8 based on circumstances or features that are

9 exceptional or unique to the property for

10 that particular sign.

11 The failure to grant relief

12 will not unreasonably prevent the limited use

13 of that property and the grant of relief will

14 result in a use of the structure that is

15 incompatible and unreasonably interferes with

16 the adjacent property.

17 MS. SKELCY: Second.

18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

19 been made and seconded, any need for further

20 conversation?

21 Seeing none, Madam Secretary,

22 please call the roll.

23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

24 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?




2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?


4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?


8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?

9 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

11 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven

13 to zero.

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

15 Having our third case for

16 today, Case No. PZ-12-045, 44700 Grand River.

17 I believe it is the same

18 applicant. Can you please state your again

19 for the record.

20 MR. GILTNER: David Giltner,

21 G-i-l-t-n-e-r.

22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.

23 PZ-12-045, for 44700 Grand River, do you

24 swear to tell the truth in this case?

25 MR. GILTNER: I do.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Go ahead, sir.

2 MR. GILTNER: Again, same parcel,

3 at this juncture, I am looking for a very

4 large freeway sign to advertise three

5 buildings totaling 205,000 square feet of

6 manufacturing crane space.

7 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.

8 Anyone in the audience who

9 would like to make a comment regarding this

10 particular case before the Board?

11 (No audible responses.)

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will

13 ask Madam Secretary to please read into the

14 record any correspondence.

15 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No. PZ-12-045

16 for 44700 Grand River, there were 21 mailed,

17 zero return, zero responses.

18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much,

19 Madam Secretary.

20 I will now turn to the city

21 for any comments.

22 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.

23 MS. SAARELA: Nothing to add.

24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. I will

25 now open up this to the Board for



1 conversation. Yes, Member Ghannam?

2 MR. GHANNAM: Just as I stated in

3 the other case, I have no problem with 48

4 square foot.

5 In this particular property,

6 you intend to put the 48 square foot on the

7 actual freeway side of the building, correct?

8 MR. GILTNER: Correct.

9 MR. GHANNAM: I understand that.

10 And because it's so large in terms of a

11 complex, I have no problem with that.

12 But with the other ones, I

13 assume you're not interested in the other 24

14 square foot? You want freeway --

15 MR. GILTNER: The ones I care about

16 are the large sign on Grand River and a large

17 sign on the freeway.

18 MR. GHANNAM: With that in mind, I

19 would be willing to support that. I have no

20 other comments.

21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

22 Member Skelcy?

23 MS. SKELCY: Would you agree to a

24 one year limitation?

25 MR. GILTNER: I kind of -- I guess



1 I sort of assumed I would be back in a year

2 if I hadn't sold it in a year.

3 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member

5 Skelcy. Do we have any additional questions

6 or comments regarding this particular case?

7 Seeing none, I will taken a

8 motion.

9 MR. GHANNAM: If not, I will make a

10 motion. I will make two motions, one for

11 approval, one for denial.

12 First I will make a motion in

13 Case No. 12-045, for 44700 Grand River to

14 approve the applicant's request for one 48

15 square foot sign that will be front of the

16 I-96 freeway side of the building, for a

17 period of one year or when the property is

18 sold.

19 The request is based on

20 circumstances or features that are

21 exceptional and unique to the property and do

22 not result in conditions that exist generally

23 in the city.

24 Failure to grant relief will

25 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the



1 property and will result in substantial more

2 than a mere inconvenience.

3 The grant of relief will not

4 result in the use of the structure that is

5 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes

6 with adjacent or surrounding properties.

7 MS. SKELCY: Second.

8 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

9 been made and seconded, do we have any need

10 for further discussion?

11 Seeing none, please call roll.

12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

13 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?


16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

17 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


20 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

21 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.

22 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?

23 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

24 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

25 MR. FERRELL: Yes.



1 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven

2 to zero.

3 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you.

4 MR. GILTNER: Can I -- the reason

5 for the number of signs that are currently

6 there, is you got three different buildings

7 that total 205,000 feet, one of the buildings

8 is 105, another building is 80,000 and

9 another building is 25,000. So each of the

10 signs in front of the property identifies

11 those particular sizes because they can be

12 leased individually.

13 I'm thinking that I do need

14 the number of signs that I originally

15 requested.

16 CHAIRMAN IBE: Sir, I am quite sure

17 you have been following the procedures since

18 we started, and it appears you now have taken

19 a change of heart, is that what I am hearing?

20 MR. GILTNER: Well, I didn't see

21 much need for all those signs in the

22 beginning, but now after thinking about it, I

23 think a sign in front of each of the

24 buildings identifying that particular size of

25 the building is kind of important.



1 MR. GEDEON: Well, you've got 48

2 square feet to work with. I mean, I think

3 it's just a matter of adjusting the text on

4 your sign, you know, on 48 square feet that

5 you have to identify the properties, the

6 building, so the options for leasing as you

7 see fit.

8 MR. GILTNER: There would be no way

9 to fit on that sign available 205,000 square

10 feet or 105,000 square feet or 80,000 square

11 feet or 25,000 square feet, wouldn't be

12 possible.

13 MR. GHANNAM: Just a quick comment,

14 your building No. 2 does not face Grand River

15 or 96, it faces a railroad, which you're not

16 going to have any people driving the rails.

17 I think that's --

18 MR. GILTNER: That could be a very

19 small sign, just saying 25,000 feet.

20 MR. GHANNAM: You wouldn't have

21 people coming onto the campus to even look at

22 that building? They would either be caught

23 by either a sign on 96 or a sign on Grand

24 River.

25 MR. GILTNER: Correct.



1 MS. SKELCY: I mean, I don't want

2 to tell you how to do your signs, but you

3 could certainly say, up to 80,000 square

4 feet, or an area of square footage. I mean,

5 I think as Member Gedeon said, you can

6 accommodate language on the sign, maybe the

7 name of the broker is a little bit smaller,

8 but I think you can accommodate that.

9 Even if you made a request, I

10 think the feeling of the Board is, five signs

11 is too many.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: City attorney,

13 what's your opinion in the change of heart?

14 MS. SAARELA: I mean, the change of

15 heart obviously is one thing, it's whether or

16 not your viewpoints have changed based on

17 what he said.

18 If none of your viewpoints

19 have changed, then they would be willing --

20 no need to change the motion.

21 If someone has changed their

22 mind, based on what he's told you, the

23 procedure would be -- would be for someone to

24 move for reconsideration, then you would need

25 a majority to agree to reconsider the motion,



1 and then you would have to put a new motion

2 on the table after that.

3 MR. GHANNAM: In my opinion, we

4 have already finished the first case. This

5 particular case, this parcel has two

6 buildings, and I think what he wants is one

7 for 96 and one for that second smaller

8 building.

9 I'm still comfortable with

10 going ahead with and denying the balance of

11 the two -- that the Board was inclined to

12 approve one for the smaller building, I would

13 say that, not if, either way.

14 MR. GILTNER: I may respond --

15 CHAIRMAN IBE: No, sir, you may

16 not. Not at this time.

17 From my understanding, we do

18 have a motion already made, is that correct?

19 MR. GHANNAM: We already made a

20 motion to approve one large sign. Now the

21 balance of the two signs that are left, which

22 we can approve one or both, or deny one or

23 both.

24 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Sir,

25 just as a courtesy, what were you going to



1 say, sir?

2 MR. GILTNER: Well, if a sign says

3 up to 80,000 feet, the text on the sign would

4 actually be up to 205,000 feet. But somebody

5 looking for a 25,000 foot building, or even

6 an 80,000 foot building, is not real likely

7 to call on a sign that says up to 205,000

8 square feet.

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

10 Well, I'm bringing it back to the Board and

11 ask the Board's opinion as to which --

12 obviously, we feel the same way based on

13 prior discussion, then I will entertain a

14 motion to deny the other motion.

15 But if not, then if anybody

16 wishes to change their mind, we can move --

17 yes?

18 MR. GERBLICK: I think the overall

19 purpose of the sign is really to draw people

20 into the property, to take a look at the

21 property.

22 MR. GILTNER: Right.

23 MR. GERBLICK: As Member Gedeon had

24 mentioned, you have to drive onto the

25 property to see the positioning of those



1 other signs in front of the other building,

2 so the original goal of having this sign has

3 pretty been accomplished by someone driving

4 onto the property.

5 MR. GILTNER: Right.

6 MR. GERBLICK: As the other members

7 have mentioned, you could change your wording

8 to read whatever you want.

9 But if that one highway sign

10 is an option of getting people onto the

11 property, I don't really see a need for any

12 additional signs. I would not support any

13 additional signs.

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. Do we

15 have any additional questions or comments?

16 MR. GHANNAM: Well, I have no

17 problem with the 48 square foot sign on the

18 building facing 96, the second building which

19 he is requesting, a smaller 24 square foot

20 sign, I guess that's a toss-up.

21 No one is going to see it

22 driving by Grand River, no one is going to

23 see it by 96, you have got to be drawn to the

24 property to see it.

25 I understand the theory of



1 when someone is in, you want to advertise the

2 square footage of that building, and it is a

3 separate building, but like I said, that's

4 fairly a toss-up for me.

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will entertain a

6 motion, either based on what the Board

7 Members decide as --

8 MS. SKELCY: In the Case of 12-045,

9 44700 Grand River, I will move that we deny

10 the request for the two 24 square foot signs

11 and a singular 24 foot sign that was so

12 requested.

13 Based on the fact that the

14 request is not based upon circumstances or

15 features that are exceptional or unique to

16 the property and do not result in conditions

17 that generally exist in the city, and they

18 are not self-created.

19 The failure to grant relief

20 will not unreasonably prevent or limit the

21 use of the property.

22 The grant of relief will not

23 result in a use of the structure that is

24 incompatible or unreasonably interferes with

25 adjacent or surrounding properties.



1 This is based on the fact that

2 a large sign will be placed for this parcel

3 on the freeway and draw people into the

4 location and that the sign for the location

5 can indicate the one that has been granted

6 for 48 square feet, can indicate the square

7 footage of the parcels.

8 MR. GEDEON: Second.

9 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

10 been made and seconded, do we have any need

11 for further discussion?

12 (No audible responses.)

13 Seeing none, please call the

14 roll.

15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

16 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?


19 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?

20 MR. GHANNAM: Yes.

21 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


23 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

24 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.

25 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?



1 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?


4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven

5 to zero.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Good

7 luck, sir.

8 That brings us to Case No.

9 PZ-12-046, 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite

10 C-118, JD Racing.

11 Will the applicant please come

12 to the podium.

13 Please remember to state your

14 full name and spell your last name for the

15 record. If you're not an attorney, please

16 raise your right hand to be sworn.

17 MR. KRULAS: My name is Kerry

18 Krulas, K-e-r-r-y, K-r-u-l-a-s.

19 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.

20 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite

21 118, do you swear to tell the truth in this

22 case?

23 MR. KRULAS: I do. Before I begin,

24 I want to apologize to the committee, at the

25 owner's direction, we have as of last Friday



1 made a change in the size and sign place and

2 for both elevations receiving signs.

3 The updated drawings should

4 have been included in your packet. I did

5 speak with Frank prior to the meeting and he

6 was generous enough to allow us to make this

7 last minute change.

8 If you don't have those

9 drawings, I can place them on the screen here

10 for you.

11 The new drawings shows a

12 reduction in size of the sign on the north

13 elevation facing Donaldson, for what we were

14 originally requesting was 403 square foot

15 down to 165.4 square feet.

16 The east elevation facing

17 Twelve Mile remains the same size, in

18 addition, the grid work that was originally

19 proposed in which the signs were attached,

20 has been eliminated.

21 We are here to request a

22 variance on two items tonight. The first,

23 seeing an increase of allowable square

24 footage on the north elevation facing

25 Donaldson Drive, from the maximum of 65 feet



1 square feet to 165 feet, four square feet,

2 and for an additional sign to be placed on

3 the east elevation facing Twelve Mile Road

4 that is of the same size.

5 We are seeking the variances

6 for several reasons. The east elevation

7 facing Twelve Mile Road and having the most

8 impact from an advertising standpoint, in our

9 opinion, we need a size increase in order to

10 be seen effectively at a distance of

11 approximately 2,500 feet to Twelve Mile and

12 also take into account the speed of the

13 traffic on that road.

14 A similar example of scale and

15 mounting height can be found at Dick's

16 Sporting Goods, just adjacent to JD Racing on

17 Twelve Mile Road.

18 The Donaldson Drive elevation

19 has a couple of issues. The first being the

20 distance of the facade to the Donaldson Drive

21 and West Oaks Drive intersection, that is

22 approximately 750 feet. At that distance, a

23 sign with any less square footage would be

24 unreadable, and it would be esthetically too

25 small in relation to the building's facade.



1 The length of that facade, by the way, is

2 246 feet. Anything smaller would fail to

3 draw attention to that elevation.

4 We'd especially like to take

5 advantage of the traffic that is normally

6 heading towards the Emagine Theater and any

7 other business located in that area of the

8 complex.

9 There is also a rise right

10 there at that intersection. And if anyone

11 has ever sat there, when you look over, you

12 would be able to see at least some lighted

13 interest in the sign we're proposing as we're

14 now placing it at about 40 feet, at its

15 highest point, on that Donaldson elevation.

16 Nonetheless, it would at the very least draw

17 some interest just from having some light

18 there.

19 I just drove by that

20 intersection a few minutes ago before I came

21 here, and it's -- you can just see where our

22 sign would be placed. You can just fairly

23 peep and you will be able to see it.

24 In person you will feel that

25 our proposal does not unreasonably interfere



1 with adjacent or surrounding properties, and

2 will result in substantial justice being done

3 to our client, and adjacent and surrounding

4 properties is not inconsistent with the

5 spirit of the ordinance.

6 Our research of past variances

7 granted by the city for size increases within

8 the same immediate area includes Sears, the

9 Great Indoors, Powerhouse Gym, Dick's

10 Sporting Goods, ABC Warehouse, Emagine

11 Theater and the Putting Edge.

12 That concludes my opening

13 statement.

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir. Is

15 there anyone in the audience who would like

16 to make a remark regarding this particular

17 case?

18 (No audible responses.)

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will

20 now turn it over to Madam Secretary to read

21 into the record any correspondence.

22 MS. KRIEGER: In Case No.

23 PZ-12-046, for 44225 Twelve Mile Road, it's

24 C-118, there were 29 mailed, zero returns,

25 zero responses.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Madam

2 Secretary. I will now turn to the city and

3 get any comments they have about this case.

4 MS. SAARELA: I have none.

5 MR. BOULARD: Just a question, if I

6 could, to the applicant?


8 MR. BOULARD: The original request

9 was for one sign of 165.4 square feet and the

10 other was 403 square feet.

11 When we talked last, I

12 understood that the request was modified to

13 two signs of the 165.4 square feet that was

14 the smaller of the two, the original

15 requested.

16 MR. KRULAS: That's correct.

17 MR. BOULARD: The sign here that

18 you're showing us is smaller still. This is

19 158, instead of being 103 by 168, it's 96 by

20 144.

21 So I guess my question is,

22 what is it that you actually want?

23 MR. KRULAS: You know what, I

24 apologize. It looks like I may have put the

25 wrong drawing up there. My apologies.



1 MR. BOULARD: Just wanted to make

2 sure you're getting what you're asking for.

3 Nothing further. Thank you.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Very well. I will

5 now open up this case to the Board for

6 discussion. Anyone care to ask a question or

7 comment?

8 MR. GEDEON: I will make just a

9 comment. I guess I'm inclined to go ahead

10 with this even though 165, you know, seems

11 very large. We have had cases like this in

12 the past, where there is considerable amount

13 of white space. That, you know, countered

14 against the application.

15 So it's really -- in my

16 opinion, you know, it's not as overpowering

17 as a 165 square foot sign could be. So I

18 don't really have a problem with this at all.

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member

20 Gedeon.

21 Yes, Member Skelcy?

22 MS. SKELCY: Can we restrict this

23 to this particular tenant?

24 MS. SAARELA: You can. Just in

25 general, Zoning Board of Appeals law



1 restricting it to the tenant is not

2 preferred, it usually runs with the land, but

3 this doesn't prevent you or prohibit you from

4 doing that, if that's what you feel is

5 appropriate.

6 MS. SKELCY: Thank you.

7 MR. GHANNAM: I understand the

8 Twelve Mile request, it's the main

9 thoroughfare, but the side street, the people

10 really maneuver around the complex, but I

11 understand more is better, bigger is better,

12 all of that, but I'm just having trouble with

13 that side one, such a large one at that.

14 MR. KRULAS: This is the north

15 elevation we are talking about?

16 MR. GHANNAM: It would be the east.

17 I have no problem with the north. It's the

18 east elevation.

19 MR. KRULAS: Right, and I can

20 certainly see that. Basically what we did,

21 when we were surveying this property to begin

22 with, there was a couple of things that we

23 did, and what we did, we sent a truck out to

24 scope out the site, and we do this on several

25 jobs, especially when we are doing a survey,



1 we will go out with a light and usually it's

2 just a hand fluorescent light, and we will

3 hold it at the elevation of the right part of

4 the building, then we start driving up and

5 down the road.

6 This sign has elements that

7 light, it is not entirely lit. JD Racing and

8 the red scoop design are the main

9 illumination and there are some exposed neon

10 parts that outline the flag, but the entire

11 face of the sign doesn't light, so, you know,

12 during the day, yes, definitely, I mean, it

13 doesn't appear -- I mean, to me, just my

14 opinion, it doesn't appear that large because

15 I am trying to draw any kind of attention at

16 that intersection, we just feel that at the

17 very least gives some idea that there is

18 something going on over there.

19 And, you know, I can't assume

20 that the intersection that people generally

21 are, you know, going to Emagine Theater or

22 any number of restaurants, if you hang a left

23 there. You know, that's kind of an

24 entertainment district of that area. Whereas

25 JD Racing and, you know, Dick's Sporting



1 Goods, that's more service oriented.

2 MR. GHANNAM: Isn't there windows

3 on the east side of the building where people

4 can see inside what's going on, or no?

5 MR. KRULAS: There are windows

6 there actually. It's just that from the

7 distance, which is about 400 feet from

8 Donaldson, it's really hard to see. It's

9 really hard to see on anything. It's hard to

10 look inside, you know, you can't see inside.

11 MR. GHANNAM: There is not going to

12 be an entrance on the Donaldson, east

13 elevation, is there?

14 MR. KRULAS: There is. That's the

15 main entrance actually.

16 MR. GHANNAM: Is there an entrance

17 on Twelve Mile also?

18 MR. KRULAS: No, there is not.

19 MR. GHANNAM: So the main entrance

20 is going to be on Donaldson or at least

21 facing Donaldson?

22 MR. KRULAS: Yes.

23 MR. GHANNAM: I don't have any

24 other questions. Thank you.

25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, Member



1 Ghannam.

2 MR. FERRELL: I got a question.

3 You said you held up a light for the sign, is

4 that the actual size that you're proposing,

5 or is it just a light to see the lighting --

6 MR. KRULAS: It was just a light to

7 kind of see in broad daylight, the evening at

8 that distance. You know, I mean, during the

9 day, it would -- it's easier to visualize

10 just because I can focus on the architecture

11 itself, but at night you can't see anything.

12 So it's just a tool that we

13 use to make sure that we're -- you know, in

14 this case, we are using some exposure on the

15 sign. I want to make sure it would even be

16 effective at that distance.

17 MR. FERRELL: I think there is

18 another drawing with a smaller sign. Have

19 you thought about that size as well?

20 MR. KRULAS: We did think about

21 that size, but what happens is even though we

22 do still get some light there, by nature of

23 their word mark, JD Racing becomes almost

24 invisible, indoor carting is somewhat

25 visible.



1 If you would like, I could put

2 that other rendering back up there, if you

3 like. That has the -- kind of shows that a

4 little bit.

5 MR. FERRELL: If you could.

6 MR. KRULAS: Sure. Let's see if we

7 can -- it's kind of a side-by-side, how about

8 we do this.

9 So basically, we are just

10 allowing a little less light, but it's

11 important -- I mean, since the distance we

12 are traveling from, we're relying mostly

13 on -- especially in evening on the globe,

14 whatever light we can generate. I just feel

15 that anything less would be -- would just be

16 a disservice, you know, for the money that's

17 being spent on the sign and so forth.

18 I just -- you know, I'm just

19 advocating for the customer. You know, I'm

20 trying to get the best value for the size.

21 I do understand, you know,

22 trying to keep it to the minimum. I wouldn't

23 suggest anything more than what I thought we

24 would need.

25 MR. FERRELL: Thank you.



1 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you. Is there

2 any further questions or comments? If not, I

3 will entertain a motion.

4 MR. GEDEON: In the Case 12-046,

5 44225 Twelve Mile Road, Suite C118, JD

6 Racing, I move to approve a variance for two

7 wall signs of 165.4 square feet each.

8 This request is based on

9 circumstances and features that are

10 exceptional and unique to the property and do

11 not result from conditions that exist

12 generally in the city. Specifically, this

13 property has a very large footprint to it,

14 and are considerable distances from the

15 adjacent Twelve Mile Road and the other side

16 street, which is Donaldson Drive, yes.

17 Failure to grant relief will

18 unreasonably prevent the limited use of the

19 property, and will result in substantially

20 more than a mere inconvenience or inability

21 to obtain a higher economic or financial

22 return.

23 The grant of relief will not

24 result in the use of structure that is

25 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes



1 with adjacent or surrounding properties,

2 specifically, this is a shopping district and

3 people are accustomed to larger signs in such

4 an area.

5 MS. KRIEGER: Second.

6 CHAIRMAN IBE: I will just -- in

7 terms of discussion, I would just recommend

8 you limit it to this tenant.

9 Here's the reason why. Even

10 though it's 165 foot, it doesn't look like

11 it, if you mention, and if this tenant left,

12 and get another tenant, 165 could be very

13 loud and obnoxious, so I would request that

14 you limit it to this tenant.

15 MR. GEDEON: That's fine. I would

16 like to amend the motion to limit the

17 variance to this tenant, and more

18 specifically to a sign that has a comparable

19 amount of white space to it.

20 MS. KRIEGER: I am agreeable.

21 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that motion

22 has been made and seconded, any further

23 discussion?

24 (No audible responses.)

25 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, please



1 call the roll.

2 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

3 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

4 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?


6 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?


8 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


10 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

11 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.

12 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?

13 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

14 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

15 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

16 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven

17 to zero.

18 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you, sir.

19 Good luck.

20 MR. KRULAS: Thank you very much.

21 CHAIRMAN IBE: We'll recall Case

22 No. PZ-12-043, 22700 Heslip Drive, Bellanger,

23 Inc.. Is the applicant here?

24 (No audible responses.)

25 MR. GHANNAM: I did see other



1 people walk in and walk out.

2 MR. BOULARD: I didn't recognize

3 them.

4 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing that Case

5 PZ-12-043 was the first case on the agenda

6 today and was called and was passed and

7 called again, and seeing that no one has

8 appeared, do we need to entertain a motion to

9 either --

10 MS. SAARELA: You can either table

11 it or you can deny it.

12 CHAIRMAN IBE: Or we can deny it.

13 MR. GHANNAM: I have no problem --

14 we have gotten no response why they're not

15 here or no call, no show. I have no problem

16 moving to adjourn this to the November

17 hearing, since this is their first time up.

18 MS. PAWLOWSKI: November 20th.

19 MR. GHANNAM: I will move to

20 adjourn this to November 20th.

21 MS. SKELCY: Second.

22 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing a motion has

23 been made and seconded to move Case No.

24 PZ-12-043, 22700, do we have any further

25 discussion?



1 If not, Madam Secretary please

2 call the roll again.

3 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gedeon?

4 MR. GEDEON: Yes.

5 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Gerblick?


7 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ghannam?


9 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Chairman Ibe?


11 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Krieger?

12 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.

13 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Skelcy?

14 MS. SKELCY: Yes.

15 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Member Ferrell?

16 MR. FERRELL: Yes.

17 MS. PAWLOWSKI: Motion passes seven

18 to zero.

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.

20 That concludes our cases for today.

21 That will bring us to other

22 matters. Do we have any other matters that

23 the Board should take up at this time?

24 MR. BOULARD: Just if you don't

25 mind, for the case that was adjourned, if you



1 wouldn't mind -- you had the Zoning Board of

2 Appeals -- or the planner memo that was in

3 the gray folder, also if you wanted to use

4 the P case in there, we will save the paper.

5 CHAIRMAN IBE: Thank you very much.

6 So noted.

7 Do we have any additional

8 matters to be discussed by the Board?

9 (No audible responses.)

10 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, I will

11 entertain a motion to adjourn.

12 MR. GHANNAM: So moved.

13 MR. GERBLICK: Second.

14 CHAIRMAN IBE: All in favor say

15 aye.

16 THE BOARD: Aye.

17 CHAIRMAN IBE: All opposed?

18 (No audible responses.)

19 CHAIRMAN IBE: Seeing none, this

20 meeting is hereby adjourned.

21 (The meeting was adjourned at 7:51 p.m.)

22 ** ** **







2 ) ss.


4 I, Jennifer L. Wall, Notary Public within and for the

5 County of Oakland, State of Michigan, do hereby certify that the

6 witness whose attached deposition was taken before me in the

7 above entitled matter was by me duly sworn at the aforementioned

8 time and place; that the testimony given by said witness was

9 stenographically recorded in the presence of said witness and

10 afterward transcribed by computer under my personal supervision,

11 and that the said deposition is a full, true and correct

12 transcript of the testimony given by the witness.

13 I further certify that I am not connected by blood or

14 marriage with any of the parties or their attorneys, and that I

15 am not an employee of either of them, nor financially interested

16 in the action.

17 IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand at the

18 City of Walled Lake, County of Oakland, State of Michigan.



21 ________________ _________________________

Date Jennifer L. Wall CSR-4183

22 Oakland County, Michigan

My Commission Expires 11/12/15