REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan.
1 Novi, Michigan
2 Tuesday, November 9, 2010
3 7:00 p.m.
4 - - -
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Good evening,
6 everyone. It's seven p.m., and I'd like
7 to call to order the November 9th, 2010
8 regular meeting of the City of Novi
9 Zoning Board of Appeals.
10 Would everyone please rise for
11 the Pledge of Allegiance.
12 Member Ghannam, please lead us.
13 (The Pledge of Allegiance was
15 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
16 Ms. Martin, would you please call the
18 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here.
20 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
21 MEMBER CASSIS: Here.
22 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here.
24 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
1 MEMBER IBE: Present.
2 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?
3 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Here.
4 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?
5 MEMBER GHANNAM: Here.
6 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
7 MEMBER SKELCY: Here.
8 MS. MARTIN: Member Gedeon?
9 MEMBER GEDEON: Here.
10 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We do have a
11 quorum, and the meeting is now in
13 As a reminder, please make sure
14 all cellphones and pager ringers are
15 turned off at this time.
16 Also, at this time I'd like to
17 go over some of the meeting rules. A
18 copy of the entire public hearing rules
19 of conduct is available next to the
20 chamber entrance door.
21 The Zoning Board of Appeals is
22 a hearing board empowered by the City of
23 Novi to hear appeals seeking variance
24 from existing Novi zoning ordinances.
1 It takes a vote of at least
2 four members to approve a variance
3 request, and a majority of members
4 present to deny a request.
5 Tonight we have a full board,
6 so all decisions made will be final.
7 Individual applicants may take
8 up to five minutes, and groups may take
9 up to ten minutes as to address the
11 The next item on the agenda is
12 the approval of the agenda, and we do
13 have some changes I notice.
14 MS. MARTIN: Yes. We added on
15 Case 10-041 at 1254 East Lake Drive.
16 That was not on the original agenda.
17 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. I'm
18 looking for a motion. Counsel?
19 MR. BOULARD: In addition, just
20 as a point of reference, I don't think we
21 need to -- I don't think we need to amend
22 the agenda, but in your file there is a
23 request to table case number two.
24 However, we have been given guidance that
1 we should have a public hearing before
2 tabling that. We can discuss it at that
4 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All right. A
6 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yeah, I move
7 to approve as amended.
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second.
9 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
10 motion and a second. All in favor of
11 approving the amended agenda, please
12 signify by saying aye.
13 THE BOARD: Aye.
14 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All opposed,
15 no. We have an approved agenda.
16 Next is the approval of the
17 meeting minutes from the September 14th
18 meeting. Do we have any additional
20 MS. KUDLA: No changes, but
21 upon -- and the approval of a motion, we
22 just recommend that we recognize that the
23 vote comment on page 24 and 25 from the
24 motion on page 22 should have been,
1 "Motion failed, five to two." We are not
2 going to change it because the actual
3 statement is correct in the minutes, but
4 it was just a mis-count.
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All right.
6 Given that, I will entertain a motion.
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: So move.
8 MEMBER IBE: Second.
9 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
10 motion and a second. All those in favor,
11 please signify by saying aye.
12 THE BOARD: Aye.
13 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All opposed,
14 no. They are amended.
15 Approval of the meeting minutes
16 from the October 12th, 2010 meeting is
17 next. Any changes to these meeting
18 minutes? Anybody like to make a motion?
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: I make a
20 motion to approve the minutes.
21 MEMBER IBE: I second it.
22 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
23 motion and second to approve the meeting
24 minutes from September --
1 MEMBER SANGHVI: October.
2 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: October 12th.
3 All those in favor, say aye.
4 THE BOARD: Aye.
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Opposed, no.
6 These meeting minutes have been also
8 Next on the agenda is the
9 public remarks section of the meeting.
10 Is there anyone in the audience who
11 wishes to make any comments not
12 pertaining to any matters on the agenda
13 tonight? If so, please come forward.
14 Seeing none, the public remarks
15 section of the meeting is closed.
16 Which brings us to the cases on
17 the agenda for this evening. Case number
18 one is Case 10-041, 1245 East Lake Drive.
19 Robert Cummings is requesting
20 an extension of the tabling on this case
21 until the December 14th, 2010 Zoning
22 Board of Appeals meeting. Any comments?
23 From Charles?
24 MR. BOULARD: Mr. Cummings is
1 here, but he has requested tabling from
2 this meeting to the December meeting.
3 He's been working with the neighbors to
4 try to find some solutions to some of the
5 concerns and was not able to get
6 documentation to us to get out in the
8 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Do we have to
9 hear from the applicant regarding this,
10 or just table it?
11 MS. KUDLA: We don't need to,
12 but if he would like to say something;
13 he's here.
14 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Would you
15 like to make any comments on the record?
16 MR. CUMMINGS: I have taken the
17 suggestion of the board to talk to both
18 my adjoining and non-adjoining neighbors.
19 My plan has been taken into
20 consideration. I also got input from my
21 builder, architect, surveyor, city
22 officials and even the Novi Police.
23 I plan to present in December
24 will be a house that will fit in with the
1 neighborhood on East Lake Drive and a
2 complement with the City of Novi. And I
3 thank you for your time tonight.
4 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. Thank
6 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will go ahead
7 and move to table it to the October -- I'm
8 sorry, December meeting, 2010.
9 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
10 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. We
11 have a motion and second to table this
12 case. Any further questions, comments?
13 City attorney, Charles, anything?
14 Ms. Martin, please call the
16 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
18 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
19 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
20 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
22 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
23 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
24 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?
1 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Yes.
2 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?
3 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.
4 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
5 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
6 MS. MARTIN: Motion passes,
7 seven to zero.
8 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We'll see you
9 in December.
10 MR. CUMMINGS: Thank you all.
11 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Next is Case
12 No. 10-053, for 24460, 24800 and 25000
13 Novi Road, Michigan Tractor and Machine.
14 The petitioner is requesting a
15 number of variances, and at this time we
16 understand that this would also like to
17 be tabled.
18 MS. KUDLA: Correct. The
19 petitioner on this sent in a letter to be
20 requested to be tabled, and that letter
21 is in your file folder. You should have
22 that in front of you.
23 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Is the
24 petitioner here this evening, by chance?
1 No. Since this was a listed case, we
2 should have a public hearing on, so the
3 public has an opportunity to make any
4 comments on this case. If there is
5 anyone wishing to do so at this time,
6 please come forward. Seeing none, we
7 will close that portion.
8 Do we have any correspondence
9 that needs to be read, or do we wait for
11 MS. KUDLA: If there is any,
12 you can read it.
13 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, there
14 were 35 notices mailed, zero responses,
15 11 mail returned.
16 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay, thank
18 So, at this time, I will look
19 for a motion to table this.
20 MEMBER GHANNAM: So move.
21 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
23 motion and second to table this.
24 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair.
1 MR. BOULARD: If you don't mind
2 specifying the specific meeting, that way
3 we won't have to re-advertise.
4 MEMBER GHANNAM: They wanted
5 the December meeting, correct?
6 MR. BOULARD: Yes.
7 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will move to
8 table this to the December 14, 2010
9 zoning board meeting.
10 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
11 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. We
12 have an amended motion. Any other
13 questions? Mr. Sanghvi.
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Should we put
15 that letter in the minutes?
16 MS. KUDLA: The letter is in
17 the record; it's been filed with the
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay.
20 MS. KUDLA: Yeah.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you,
23 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Any other
24 questions? Ms. Martin.
1 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
3 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
4 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
5 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
7 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
8 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
9 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?
10 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Yes.
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?
12 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.
13 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
14 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
15 MS. MARTIN: Motion passes,
16 seven to zero.
17 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
18 The next case is Case No. 10-054 for
19 41325 Ten Mile Road, PNC Bank.
20 The petitioner is requesting a
21 variance to install a 26.1 square foot
22 wall sign on the northwest elevation of
23 the PNC Bank, located at 41325 Ten Mile
24 Road. The property is zoned B-1 and is
1 located on the southeast corner of Ten
2 Mile Road and Meadowbrook Road.
3 Is the petitioner here? Please
4 come forward to the podium. State your
5 name and address for the record. If you
6 are not an attorney, please raise your
7 right hand and be sworn in by our
9 MR. DETERS: My name is Kevin
10 Deters. I'm from Metro Detroit Signs.
11 The address 23544 Hoover Road, Warren,
12 Michigan, 48089.
13 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in
14 Case No. 10-054, 41325 Ten Mile Road, PNC
15 Bank, do you swear or affirm to tell the
17 MR. DETERS: Yes.
18 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.
19 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Please
20 proceed with your presentation.
21 MR. DETERS: Well, as you know,
22 we are requesting a wall sign on the --
23 right above the front door of this bank.
24 And, basically, our need for this sign is
1 rather simple.
2 This bank is right at the
3 corner of Ten Mile and Meadowbrook, and
4 the monument sign that they have is only
5 visible if you are traveling along Ten
6 Mile Road. They have absolutely no
7 visibility whatsoever for southbound
8 traffic on Meadowbrook until basically
9 you get through that intersection, before
10 you might be able to see that monument
12 So, what the sign we are asking
13 for is just to allow some visibility
14 along the other major thoroughfares that
15 the bank sits next to. And it's just a
16 way of keeping up with their competition.
17 And that's pretty much it.
18 And I would be happy to answer
19 any questions if you have them. It's a
20 pretty simple request.
21 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
22 Is there anyone in the audience who
23 wishes to address the board regarding
24 this case?
1 Seeing none, will the secretary
2 read any correspondence into the record.
3 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, there
4 were 64 notices mailed, zero responses,
5 five mail returned.
6 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
7 Does the building department or city
8 attorney wish to add anything at this
10 MS. KUDLA: No, we have
12 MR. BOULARD: I had -- I had a
13 couple questions for the petitioner, if I
15 Right now your existing
16 monument sign is oriented pretty much
17 north and south, which means that when
18 you are coming down Meadowbrook Road from
19 either direction, you are looking at the
20 end of it. Have you given any thought to
21 rotating that 45 degrees so the same
22 existing sign could provide visibility to
23 all the folks at the intersection without
24 adding a sign?
1 MR. DETERS: I understand your
2 question. My company did not install
3 that monument sign, a different sign
4 company did.
5 The gentleman sitting behind me
6 is Bart Quinley from PNC Bank. He's the
7 regional manager for the Detroit area.
8 Perhaps he could respond to that better
9 than I could. I wasn't a part of
10 installing that monument sign at all, so
11 I can't really speak to that.
12 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Please state
13 your name and address. And if you are
14 not an attorney, please raise your hand
15 and be sworn in.
16 MR. QUINLEY: Bart Quinley,
17 23720 (inaudible) Dearborn, and here on
18 behalf of PNC Bank.
19 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in this
20 particular case, do you swear or affirm
21 to tell the truth?
22 MR. QUINLEY: I do.
23 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.
24 MR. QUINLEY: Yes, to your
1 question, I believe it was that way once
2 upon a time, and we still had a lot of
3 complaints from our customers that it
4 took them a lot longer time to find the
5 bank because it just -- because of the
6 size of the monument sign primarily.
7 So we just -- similar to our
8 building, for instance, at Grand River
9 and Twelve Mile, where we do have
10 building signage, it's really helped us
11 in terms of the people to be able to find
12 the building. That's the main reason we
13 are looking for it.
14 MR. BOULARD: And as you kind
15 of referred to, the intent is to increase
16 the visibility to increase the business?
17 MR. QUINLEY: That's correct.
18 We are the new bank in town, so we feel
19 we are kind of at a loss compared to some
20 of the other banks that have been around
21 a while.
22 For instance, Flagstar down the
23 street here has got prominent signage on
24 two signs on their building.
1 MR. BOULARD: But, ultimately,
2 the request is to increase your business?
3 MR. QUINLEY: Yes.
4 MR. BOULARD: Okay, thank you.
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: At this time,
6 I will refer this matter to the board for
7 discussion. Mr. Cassis.
8 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,
9 Mr. Chairman. There is someone in the
10 audience there.
11 MR. NEWMAN: Could I speak?
12 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
13 public hearing, I forgot. Sorry. Please
14 step forward. State your name and
15 address, and if you are not an attorney,
16 please be sworn in.
17 MR. NEWMAN: My name is Bill
18 Newman. I'm the owner of the (inaudible)
19 adjacent to the PNC Bank and property
20 owner of 24100 Meadowbrook.
21 MEMBER IBE: Sir, do you swear
22 or affirm to tell the truth?
23 MR. NEWMAN: Yes, I do.
24 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.
1 MR. NEWMAN: Personally, I
2 don't have a problem with the request of
3 the applicant. I could only say that I
4 have been there now as a business ten
5 years, and recently just bought my
6 portion of the building. And the
7 condominium association with Todd
8 Hutchins, the majority owner of the two
9 other parts of the building, and we are
10 looking to have a sod improvement in the
11 near future. And part of that would also
12 be the -- to re-do our monument sign
13 along with additional signage on the
15 I wanted to -- I'm in a very
16 precarious situation here, but I want to
17 let you know that we also will request
18 the same thing that PNC Bank is doing at
19 this point in time. So I'm not here to
20 say one thing or another, but I know -- I
21 want you to be aware of that, that
22 whatever you decide, I would hope you do
23 the same thing for me, whether it's good
24 or bad. Okay, thank you.
1 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
2 Is there anyone else who wishes to make
3 comments? Seeing none, we'll close the
4 public hearing section. My apologies
5 again for forgetting that section.
6 All right. Board members.
7 Member Cassis.
8 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,
9 Mr. Chairman. You know, I have dealt
10 with this bank, that same branch ever
11 since it was Security Bank. Malinda
12 might know. I think even my car knew how
13 to get there. I didn't even need to tell
14 the car which way to go. Of course, I'm
15 being cynical here.
16 Other than somebody trying to
17 make some money on building another sign,
18 I think it's redundant. I think there is
19 no need for that.
20 Now, I may see a point here
21 where it used to be Security, then it was
23 MR. QUINLEY: First of America.
24 MEMBER CASSIS: Whatever.
1 MR. QUINLEY: National City.
2 MEMBER CASSIS: They may have
3 an identity kind of situation. I really
4 don't see why PNC would want to spend
5 that much money on putting signs all over
6 their buildings. Except I think if they
7 can educate the public more on PNC,
8 rather than where that sign is or how
9 many signs they should have on that
10 property. Of course, this is my opinion.
11 Now, I'm glad to see the next
12 door neighbor expressing his desire now.
13 And you can see how things start rolling
14 on and build.
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Snowballing.
16 MEMBER CASSIS: Snowballing. I
17 may have had subconsciously something
18 like that in my expression, but the
19 gentleman buttressed it by coming up and
20 saying that he's going to have to come
21 before us and ask for more signs.
22 I expect -- I'm not going to
23 vote tonight to approve something like
24 this, because I don't see a need for
2 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
4 Member Ghannam.
5 MEMBER GHANNAM: Just a couple
6 questions. Somehow I recall in the
7 ordinance if it's a single-standing
8 building at a corner, they are entitled
9 to two signs, one from each directional
10 way. I know we had this issue with the
11 bank -- I'm going to say it's at Ten Mile
12 and Novi. There was another one; I can't
13 remember if it was at Beck and Grand
14 River. That said if there is a
15 single-standing building at the corner,
16 they are entitled to two signs. And
17 that's just by ordinance; they didn't
18 need a variance.
19 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Why don't we
20 move on while Charles is looking.
21 MR. BOULARD: If I may. I'm
22 looking at Section 28-5(3)(h).
23 "Except in the TC-1 and GE Districts,
24 where a corner lot or parcel is occupied
1 by a single business and situated on two
2 or more thoroughfares, wall signs may be
3 permitted on each thoroughfare in
4 accordance with this chapter, except that
5 if a ground sign is selected to be placed
6 on the premises, only the ground sign
7 shall be permitted."
8 MEMBER GHANNAM: Okay. So if
9 there is one ground sign, they are not
10 entitled to an additional wall sign?
11 MR. BOULARD: That's my
13 MS. KUDLA: Correct
15 MEMBER GHANNAM: All right. So
16 they can have two wall signs or one
17 ground sign?
18 MR. BOULARD: Yes.
19 MS. KUDLA: Yes.
20 MEMBER GHANNAM: Okay. Makes
21 sense. I wasn't sure. And my only
22 comment on the application would be, I go
23 by this particular area a million times.
24 And the position they want to put a wall
1 sign, if you are coming north on
2 Meadowbrook, you have to pass the curb
3 cut to even see that sign. You would
4 have to make a right on Ten Mile then,
5 and by that time you are by the ground
6 sign anyway.
7 Yet it may have some benefit if
8 you are coming south on Meadowbrook, but
9 if you are passing Ten Mile, you see the
10 sign, and you can simply pull into that
11 curb cut.
12 So, I understand, I mean, I
13 guess, theoretically they could have two
14 wall signs, one for each location, but in
15 this case they do have one ground sign.
16 It does appear to be redundant, in my
17 opinion, but that's all I have.
18 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
19 Member Skelcy.
20 MEMBER SKELCY: I have to agree
21 with the redundancy, especially when the
22 wall sign is facing really toward Ten
23 Mile, rather than people traveling north
24 on Meadowbrook aren't really going to see
1 it until it's really too late. I don't
2 really think it helps the Meadowbrook
3 folks except those traveling southbound.
4 So, again, I have to see it as a
5 redundancy as well. Thank you.
6 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Anyone else?
7 Member Gedeon.
8 MEMBER GEDEON: I guess this is
9 more of a question than a comment, but
10 does anyone know -- I know there is a
11 bank kitty-corner, I think it's a
12 Charter One Bank.
13 MEMBER GHANNAM: Right.
14 MEMBER GEDEON: Had we compared
15 the signage to that bank to this proposed
16 area, just for competitive reasons? I
17 don't want to favor one bank over
19 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Anyone know?
20 MEMBER GEDEON: I don't have
21 that factual information, so I don't know
22 what the answer of that is.
23 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Member
1 MEMBER CASSIS: I don't see
2 that logic. Just because somebody has
3 something there, that we need to give
4 another person same thing. I mean, I
5 don't follow the logic.
6 And, may I say, that
7 Mr. Boulard's suggestion would serve the
8 applicant much better than putting
9 another sign. If they -- for instance,
10 if they don't think the location of that
11 sign is in the right way, they might ask
12 their expert here, the sign maker, what
13 is the best way to rotate that sign and
14 move it in a different direction to give
15 them the maximum exposure that they need.
16 So, I would say Mr. Boulard's suggestion
17 would be good.
18 I'm not here to prevent people
19 from trying to advance their business.
20 Believe me, it's not that. I think I'm
21 trying to help the bank.
22 And, you know, the
23 proliferation of too many signs sometimes
24 confuses the customer rather than helping
1 them. So I believe that trying to
2 educate the public on PNC, replacing the
3 previous one, Michigan National, whatever
4 it was, Security.
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: National city.
6 MEMBER CASSIS: Huh?
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: National
9 MEMBER CASSIS: National City.
10 And I did business with National City,
11 too. That I think might help a little
12 more to alleviate the perceived, I would
13 say, problem the applicant has. Thank
15 CHAIRMAN WROBEL:
16 Member Sanghvi.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chair. The flip side of this
19 argument is would they rather have this
20 ground sign taken out and put two big new
21 wall signs without even coming to the
22 ZBA? You see, there is a flip side of
23 it. And to me, putting the small -- it
24 is not a really obtrusive sign with what
1 it looks like now. It's not really a
2 huge thing really. I would rather just
3 leave that and just put a little more
4 small sign than take out the whole thing
5 and put two large signs without coming
6 over here at all.
7 I think common sense tells me,
8 it's a lot better to have a small wall
9 sign where they want it, which is not
10 really obtrusive, rather than take this
11 out and put two big ones on the wall.
12 Thank you.
13 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Anyone else?
14 Member Krieger.
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: I also, like
16 Member Cassis, I could ride my bike
17 there, get there blind-folded. My car
18 could drive me there. I remember when it
19 was on Nine Mile and Novi Road. No, you
20 got to go over to Ten Mile and Taft. No,
21 now you got to go over here to
22 Meadowbrook and Ten Mile.
23 And that corner -- you go to
24 different cities, different locations in
1 the same city, the intent of the area, if
2 you have too much information, your mind
3 is going to shut it off and you won't see
5 I agree with Member Sanghvi, as
6 well, that there is two sides. It could
7 come back and put up two wall signs. The
8 PNC Bank with the mock-up is unobtrusive.
9 The only thing is, if you are coming
10 northbound, you won't know it, so you
11 have to know where the bank is anyway.
12 So, it would be for advertising
13 and growing the bank, so I'm -- I'm at a
14 stump, because you can't have too much or
15 too little. But I did see that you
16 had -- applicant had wanted to include
17 something else.
18 MR. QUINLEY: If you like, we
19 can table this until next month. After
20 going by there myself, personally, I
21 didn't realize what was being exactly
22 said before. And after going by there
23 myself, part of our issue at this site --
24 first of all, let me say thank you for
1 banking at PNC, those who drive there all
2 the time.
3 But I think that one of our
4 issues is we do have a row of trees on
5 Ten Mile that kind of obstruct the view.
6 And we have more trees right by the front
7 entranceway, also, and right now don't
8 obstruct the view too much because the
9 leaves are down. If we did have the sign
10 there, it would really help us out if we
11 were to place it on the wall that was
12 on -- that runs parallel to Meadowbrook;
13 that would probably be a lot more
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: You rather us
16 table it, as well?
17 MR. QUINLEY: And we'll just
18 resubmit in a different location.
19 Obviously, if that works for the board.
20 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
21 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Member
23 MEMBER SKELCY: You realize if
24 you take down the monument signe based on
1 the ordinance, you could have one on each
3 MR. QUINLEY: Yeah. And what I
4 would like to do is be able to look at
5 that, and we'll review that and see where
6 it would best suit the bank.
7 MEMBER SKELCY: Thank you.
8 MR. QUINLEY: Thank you.
9 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. Seeing
10 everyone has had the opportunity to
11 speak, I will entertain a motion or a
12 motion to table. Member Ghannam.
13 MEMBER GHANNAM: Sir, did you
14 want the December meeting? You want it
15 one month?
16 MR. QUINLEY: Please.
17 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will go
18 ahead and move to table this case,
19 10-054, to the December 14th, 2010
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
22 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Do we need to
23 re-advertise this with this tabling?
24 MS. KUDLA: Not as long as you
1 are putting it to a specific date.
2 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. We
3 have a motion and a second on the tabling
4 issue. Does anyone have any further
5 questions or comments? Ms. Martin --
6 MS. KUDLA: With the caveat,
7 the variance request doesn't change. If
8 it does, then I would have to advertise a
9 different variance request.
10 MR. QUINLEY: We understand.
11 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay.
12 Ms. Martin, please call the roll.
13 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
15 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
16 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
17 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
19 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
20 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
21 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?
22 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Yes.
23 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?
24 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.
1 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
2 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
3 MS. MARTIN: Motion passes,
4 seven to zero, to table to the December
5 14th meeting.
6 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We'll see you
7 next month on this case.
8 The final case on the agenda is
9 Case No. 10-055, for 39465 Fourteen Mile
10 Road, PNC Bank.
11 The petitioner is requesting a
12 variance to install two 26.1 square foot
13 wall signs on the north and west
14 elevations of the PNC Bank located at
15 39465 Fourteen Mile Road. The property
16 is zoned OST and is located south of
17 Fourteen Mile Road and west of Haggerty
19 The petitioner is here. Please
20 come forward again.
21 Do they have to be sworn in and
22 state their name on this case?
23 MS. KUDLA: Yes. We never
1 MR. DETERS: Kevin Deters from
2 Metro Detroit Signs, 23544 Hoover Road,
3 Warren, Michigan, 48089. Yes, I swear to
4 tell the truth.
5 MEMBER IBE: In Case No.
6 10-055, 39465 Fourteen Mile Road, PNC
7 Bank, do you swear or affirm to tell the
9 MR. DETERS: Yes, I do.
10 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Please
12 MR. DETERS: Okay. As you know,
13 we are requesting two wall signs here.
14 One on the north elevation facing Fourteen
15 Mile Road and one on the west elevation
16 that faces Grand River, a few blocks down,
17 more or less.
18 Our hardship here is a couple
19 of things. If you are traveling
20 westbound on Fourteen Mile Road, there is
21 some trees and some plant life that block
22 the bank. If you are traveling eastbound
23 on Fourteen Mile Road, that huge office
24 building that's next door really really
1 smothers the bank.
2 That, coupled with the fact
3 that that bank is set extremely far back
4 off the road, especially compared to that
5 huge office building. And, also, the
6 building has no signage on either its
7 frontage facing Fourteen nor above the
8 front door. And some people are -- some
9 PNC customers are complaining that they
10 don't -- they don't recognize that that's
11 their bank.
12 And I would be happy to answer
13 any questions you have.
14 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
15 Is there anyone in the audience who
16 wishes to address the board regarding
17 this case?
18 Seeing none, will the secretary
19 read any correspondence regarding this
20 case into the record.
21 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, 15
22 notices were mailed, zero responses, zero
23 mail returned.
24 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
1 Does the building department or city
2 attorney wish to make any comments at
3 this time?
4 MS. KUDLA: No.
5 MR. BOULARD: No.
6 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All right.
7 And at this time I will turn this matter
8 over to the board for discussion. Who
9 wants to be first?
10 MEMBER CASSIS: Let somebody
12 MEMBER GHANNAM: You want to
13 ask for public comments even though no
14 one is here?
15 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: I did.
16 MEMBER SKELCY: It seems like
17 we have the same situation here we had in
18 the prior case where you are entitled to
19 two signs as of right, if you remove the
20 monument sign. And I'm wondering -- I
21 forget your name, sir.
22 MR. QUINLEY: Bart Quinley.
23 MEMBER SKELCY: How do you feel
24 about removing the monument sign in order
1 to have the two signs as of right?
2 MR. DETERS: Could I ask a
3 question on that? Would this branch be
4 allowed two wall signs? Because we don't
5 face two -- we are not at a corner with
6 two major thoroughfares, so I don't know
7 that that would be allowed.
8 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay.
9 MR. DETERS: I think -- that
10 was my understanding of what they read 15
11 minutes ago.
12 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Mr. Boulard,
13 do you care --
14 MEMBER SKELCY: That's what I
15 get for going first, Mr. Cassis.
16 MR. BOULARD: Right. The two
17 wall signs was based on fronting on two
19 MR. DETERS: Which doesn't
20 apply in this case.
21 MR. BOULARD: If I may speak
22 out of turn. Did we record any
23 correspondence? I think there was
1 MS. MARTIN: It's in the
3 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All right.
4 Is there any correspondence?
5 MEMBER IBE: No, there is not.
6 MR. BOULARD: Sorry. There is
7 correspondence that came in after the
8 packets went out.
9 MEMBER IBE: Well, Mr. Chair,
10 there is a correspondence here from
11 Eleanor Johnson (ph). And it reads, "To
12 whom it may concern. In reference to
13 Case No. 10-055, 39465 Fourteen Mile
14 Road, it pertains to new building
15 signage. Here is the justification of
16 the impact that the issue of signage is
17 having on our business.
18 "(Inaudible) is permanently
19 displayed on the buildings, thus making
20 them easier to see from the street. Our
21 customers find it difficult to locate our
22 office since the only signage we have is
23 the marquis located on Fourteen Mile
24 Road. Our office sits on the road, so
1 visibility is reduced. When you are in
2 the parking lot, there is nothing in the
3 building to tell you where you are.
4 "In order to be able to
5 adequately compete in our industry,
6 customers need to be able to locate us
7 easily. If they can locate a competitor
8 faster, they are more likely to go to the
9 competitor rather than to PNC Bank.
10 "Should you have any questions
11 or concerns, please do not hesitate to
12 contact me at 248-926-3020.
13 "Sincerely, Eleanor Johnson,
14 branch manager at PNC Bank."
15 And the letter was not dated,
16 by the way, Mr. Chair.
17 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you.
18 All right. Any more comments from the
19 board members? Member Ghannam.
20 MEMBER GHANNAM: I have some
21 questions, sir. I'm sorry, for the
22 regional manager.
23 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Please state
24 your name again and be sworn.
1 MR. QUINLEY: Bart Quinley,
2 23720 (inaudible) Dearborn.
3 MEMBER IBE: Sir, do you swear
4 or affirm to tell the truth in this case?
5 MR. QUINLEY: I do.
6 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.
7 MEMBER GHANNAM: You understand
8 that the monument sign is in the same
9 direction, which is basically on Fourteen
10 Mile, which shows east and west, as the
11 one on the west elevation that you are
12 requesting, also?
13 MR. QUINLEY: That is correct.
14 MEMBER GHANNAM: Out of
15 curiosity --
16 MR. QUINLEY: What we are
17 asking for, basically, when you come off
18 of M-5 and you are traveling eastbound,
19 it's very difficult to see that sign, so,
20 in order to figure out which driveway you
21 take or anything else.
22 MEMBER GHANNAM: It's difficult
23 to see the monument sign?
24 MR. QUINLEY: Yeah, it's
1 difficult to see the monument sign until
2 you are right about on top of it. And
3 then you are not sure which driveway to
4 take, according to our customers. That's
5 what they felt and commented to
6 Ms. Johnson.
7 MEMBER GHANNAM: So why have
8 the monument sign at all?
9 MR. QUINLEY: Well, your point
10 is well taken.
11 MEMBER GHANNAM: But it is --
12 that particular west elevation sign can
13 only be seen as you are traveling
14 eastbound; does that make sense?
15 MR. QUINLEY: Yeah. If you are
16 on the east side of the lot, there is a
17 row of evergreen trees that are probably
18 25 feet tall that go all the way just to
19 about the sidewalk area, so it kind of
20 hides the building.
21 MEMBER GHANNAM: But it
22 accomplishes the same thing as the
23 monument sign, does it not, in the same
24 direction? I understand there may be the
1 obstructions that you are talking
3 MR. QUINLEY: Yeah, it could,
5 MEMBER GHANNAM: You have to
6 establish a practical difficulty to try
7 to get exceptions to the rule. Here you
8 are trying to get two exceptions to the
9 rule. You have one sign that you are
10 entitled to, and you are trying to get
11 two more. I'm trying to find out that
12 particular sign on the west elevation,
13 how does that meet our standards.
14 MR. QUINLEY: Well, I think --
15 I think the monument sign itself clearly
16 is not enough for us. So if we have to
17 go with the two building signs, we would
18 be happy to do that.
19 MEMBER GHANNAM: If you are
20 traveling westbound on Fourteen Mile, in
21 your opinion, is the monument sign
22 visible, or is there any obstructions?
23 MR. QUINLEY: First of all, I
24 think the monument sign -- I think the
1 height of the monument sign is only four
2 feet. So, in today's world, depending if
3 you have been on Fourteen Mile often, you
4 know it can back up actually past our
5 driveway. If you've got SUV's or
6 whatnot, you may not even see the sign.
7 MEMBER GHANNAM: My question
8 was was it visible or not visible.
9 MR. QUINLEY: It's visible if
10 you don't have any traffic obstructing
12 MEMBER GHANNAM: And the sign
13 that's requested that faces Fourteen
14 Mile, that's going to be visible from
15 east and westbound in your opinion
16 without any obstructions?
17 MR. QUINLEY: I think again,
18 yeah, you could possibly pass it up
19 because of the trees, you know, at the
20 east end of the lot. It could be an
22 MEMBER GHANNAM: You are still
23 going to have the same problems.
24 MR. QUINLEY: From traveling
1 westbound, that's correct.
2 MEMBER GHANNAM: All right. I
3 don't have any other questions. Thank
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you,
6 Member Ghannam.
7 Mr. Sanghvi.
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: I will go
9 first. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
10 I was there this afternoon. I
11 looked at this property very closely, and
12 I also looked at the bank across the
13 street to which they have (inaudible).
14 First point -- first thing to
15 point out, the bank across the street is
16 in a different city.
17 MR. QUINLEY: I understand.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: They have
19 rules and regulations different than
21 MR. QUINLEY: I understand
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Number two,
24 yes, the location of this property is
1 such that you can hardly see where this
2 bank is until you are almost past it,
3 whichever way you come on Fourteen Mile
4 Road, if you come from the east or west.
5 And when you are -- a bank is a
6 destination. Bank is not somewhere you
7 go shopping looking for it. You must
8 know where you are going. So, in that
9 respect, they have a real practical
10 difficulty in being able to be identified
11 by the customers driving on either side
12 of Fourteen Mile Road.
13 And over on Haggerty, there are
14 three more properties on the west side,
15 so you can't see from Haggerty either
16 way, north or south.
17 So, the way I looked at it, and
18 I still look at it, they are having a
19 hardship to be identified as a bank and a
20 property for a destination. Thank you.
21 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Okay. Member
23 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes, would
24 putting the sign a little bit higher make
1 any difference?
2 MR. QUINLEY: I believe so,
4 MEMBER CASSIS: Why don't we go
5 to that kind of issue?
6 MR. QUINLEY: That's an option,
7 sure. We are looking for where we could
8 get the most visibility.
9 MEMBER CASSIS: I'm trying to
11 MR. QUINLEY: Sure.
12 MEMBER CASSIS: And, you know,
13 a bank is not like the hamburger place.
14 It's not a restaurant, that it's an
15 instantaneous kind of decision.
16 When you -- when you choose a
17 bank as your bank, first of all, you want
18 to know where that location is, where
19 that branch bank is. And decisions on
20 banking is not whether you are driving by
21 on Fourteen and you say, "Oh, here's a
22 good bank; I'm going to shop at that
23 bank." It's not that way. It's how much
24 interest they pay, what kind of
1 relationships they have with their
2 customers and things like that. So you
3 establish a relationship.
4 Now, if you want that same
5 person that you have a relationship with
6 already to know which way to go in and so
7 on, there is also a directional sign.
8 Maybe you want to lift the sign up a
9 little bit for people to know where to
10 exit and where to come in, and maybe a
11 small directional sign that says entrance
12 or something.
13 MR. QUINLEY: I believe we
14 already have an entrance sign there.
15 MEMBER CASSIS: Huh?
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: They have
18 MR. QUINLEY: I believe we
19 already have an entrance sign.
20 MEMBER CASSIS: I didn't see
21 that, because I don't frequent that bank.
22 MR. QUINLEY: I think people
23 are so used to seeing signs on a
24 building. You look at Walgreens, CVS,
1 everybody's got the big signs on the
2 building. I think people are kind of
3 getting focused on a building sign rather
4 than a small monument sign.
5 And, actually, the monument
6 sign for a good period of time kind of
7 worked for the other banks, because we --
8 for instance, on Meadowbrook, you had all
9 those trees and it was better to have the
10 sign underneath the trees where it was
11 more visible than to try to have a pylon
12 or pole sign where the trees were
13 actually blocking it. We are just trying
14 to do the best for the bank.
15 MEMBER CASSIS: Would this sign
16 be better for you to bring it up higher?
17 MR. QUINLEY: I believe your
18 ordinance was very specific also about
19 the height and the size of the sign. And
20 the closer it gets to the road, the
21 smaller the sign has to be. So we were
22 thinking because of the comments made by
23 the customers, it would serve the bank
24 better to have the building sign.
1 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, there
2 are times where we do grant height, you
3 know. If you want to go that route.
4 MR. QUINLEY: Okay.
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Member
7 MEMBER GEDEON: I would
8 counter, saying, visually speaking, I
9 find two wall signs preferable to a
10 larger or a taller monument sign. But
11 opinions vary, obviously, but I just
12 wanted to add that.
13 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Mr. Boulard,
14 do you have anything to add at this time?
15 MR. BOULARD: I just want to
16 mention that if this variance request was
17 advertised for the number of signs and
18 for the wall signs, if there was -- if
19 the request was revised or if this
20 request was dropped and withdrawn, and
21 there is another request for a higher
22 monument sign, I would require a separate
23 application and renotification. Just as
24 a point of information.
1 MR. QUINLEY: Okay.
2 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Anyone else?
3 Member Skelcy.
4 MEMBER SKELCY: How high can
5 the monument signs be?
6 MS. KUDLA: We are looking at
7 that issue right now in the sign
8 ordinance. I don't know that we have the
9 complete information on how high this one
10 is and whether it's in compliance with
11 the ordinance right now. We could
12 investigate that right now further.
13 CHAIRMAN WROBEL:
14 Member Krieger.
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: On the flip
16 side of that, would you be willing to
17 remove the ground sign and have the two
18 wall signs?
19 MR. QUINLEY: I certainly would
20 like to take that back to our management
21 and see if that would be their
22 preference. It very well could be.
23 Again, based on the comments made by the
24 customers, our branch folks, and I'm sure
1 a lot of other banks do the same thing,
2 send out surveys to our customers, on a
3 random basis. And a lot of the comments
4 back were, at that location, "Hey, we
5 just don't -- we have a hard time finding
7 And new customers, obviously,
8 there is a lot of transitioning in the
9 Detroit metropolitan area with people
10 moving in and moving out, so it makes it
11 that much more difficult to do our job.
12 We are grateful we have long-term people
13 staying around, but in order to attract
14 new business, it makes it difficult.
15 If you like to, again, we can
16 take this one to the December meeting and
17 propose that to management and see if
18 that's something they would prefer. We
19 could have a few couple people come out
20 around, take a look at which way looks
21 better for us.
22 I guess what we need to know is
23 if we were to raise the monument sign,
24 how much higher could we raise it? And
1 could it be any larger, or would we be
2 talking about just raising the existing
3 monument sign?
4 MEMBER SKELCY: If it goes
5 beyond the ordinance, then you have to
6 request a monument sign variance.
7 MR. QUINLEY: Right.
8 MEMBER SKELCY: The size of the
9 sign and the height.
10 MR. QUINLEY: I guess I was
11 trying to get a feel from you folks of
12 what might be acceptable. If you tell me
13 ten feet is way out of line, but maybe
14 six feet will work or eight feet is going
15 to work, then that kind of gives us a
16 better of idea which way we want to go as
18 MEMBER SKELCY: I'm wondering
19 if you should work with Mr. Boulard over
20 the course of the next month and talk to
21 him, because he's very familiar with
22 signs and heights and loves to work with
23 our citizens to achieve the optimal plan.
24 MR. QUINLEY: Okay.
1 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Any other --
2 Member Ghannam?
3 MEMBER GHANNAM: If you are
4 interested in a tabling, just as we did
5 your last one, I have no problem making
6 that motion.
7 MR. QUINLEY: That sounds like
8 it might be the best thing.
9 MEMBER GHANNAM: Just, in my
10 opinion, if I had to vote today, I would
11 not vote to give you the variances for
12 two, potentially one. But from what you
13 are telling me, even if you have those
14 two wall signs, one which faces your
15 current monument sign, that's not going
16 to help much. You are saying the one
17 that faces Fourteen Mile may not help
18 that much. You may still have
20 I could potentially approve
21 one, depending on what everybody else
22 does. I couldn't vote for two.
23 If you want an adjournment,
24 again, I have no problem.
1 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: I think the
2 city attorney wishes to add something.
3 MS. KUDLA: With
4 this requesting to the next January --
5 MS. MARTIN: January meeting.
6 If there is going to be changes and we
7 have to re-publicize, because I have work
8 to do and cut-off has already been
10 MS. KUDLA: It doesn't look
11 like we are looking to do the same
12 variance; it would have to be all
14 MEMBER GHANNAM: If he still
15 requested the two wall signs, that could
16 be adjourned or tabled to December? But
17 if he wants to raise the monument --
18 MS. KUDLA: Correct. We are
19 trying to confirm that raising it would
20 not be in compliance with the ordinance.
21 Mr. Boulard went to see if we have a
22 permit that says what it currently is and
23 whether it needs a (inaudible).
24 MR. QUINLEY: I know if the
1 bank were allowed to do the existing
2 monument and have one wall, they would
3 prefer the one on Fourteen Mile, Fourteen
4 Mile side.
5 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Any other
6 comments? Mr. Boulard, do you have
7 anything you wish to add?
8 MR. BOULARD: Well, I've got
9 the file for 39465 Fourteen Mile. It
10 appears that there was back in 2000, the
11 ground sign was installed, and there was
12 an existing wall sign that was removed.
13 MR. QUINLEY: That was when the
14 road widening occurred, I believe.
15 MR. BOULARD: There is also an
16 indication that shows that the sign is
17 less than three feet tall. I'm not sure
18 if that's how it was actually installed,
19 but that's what the drawing indicates.
20 MS. KUDLA: So what would be --
21 in the event it's three feet tall, they
22 would still have some ability to modify
23 it, if that's the actual --
24 MR. BOULARD: Although there is
1 a different application that shows it as
2 four feet tall. So, I can't tell for
3 sure. I apologize.
4 MS. KUDLA: The regulation for
5 ground sign would say all other ground
6 signs shall not exceed a height of six
7 feet. So, the applicant might want to
8 work with Mr. Boulard to figure out
9 what's actually out there and figure what
10 can be done within the scope of the
12 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Any other
13 comments? If not, I will look for a
15 MEMBER GHANNAM: And I will
16 make the motion, but did you want it for
17 the December meeting?
18 MR. QUINLEY: Yes.
19 MS. KUDLA: It would have to be
20 the same variance; otherwise, we would
21 have to put it off until January.
22 MEMBER GHANNAM: Did you
23 understand that? If you come back in
24 December, it has to be for the same two
1 requests, either one or both. If you
2 want to raise beyond --
3 MR. QUINLEY: I guess it will
4 probably be better if --
5 MEMBER GHANNAM: If you want to
6 raise it beyond what the ordinances are,
7 you would have to re-publish and go
8 through the procedures. So would you
9 rather have the January meeting or
11 MR. QUINLEY: If I'm going for
12 just the two signs in December, I will
13 wait to go with December then.
14 MEMBER SKELCY: Do you
15 understand -- it sounds like you can go
16 as high as six feet.
17 MR. QUINLEY: I'm going to go
18 verify the height of the sign when I get
19 done with this meeting. I don't believe
20 it's six feet high; it's probably close,
21 but --
22 MEMBER GHANNAM: You can
23 always -- I assume, in the meantime, you
24 can always move from December to
2 MR. QUINLEY: Right.
3 MEMBER GHANNAM: Based on that,
4 I will make a motion to table
5 Case No. 10-055 until the December 14th,
6 2010 meeting.
7 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
8 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
9 motion made by Member Ghannam and second
10 by Member Skelcy. Any
11 further discussion?
12 MEMBER CASSIS: May I say
13 something, Mr. Chairman?
14 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Mr. Cassis.
15 MEMBER CASSIS: PNC Bank is
16 one of the strongest and most reputable
17 banks in the nation. We are honored to
18 have PNC being able to take over those
19 banks that were going to be going out of
20 business. And PNC, with its strength, is
21 lending good support to our community.
22 MR. QUINLEY: Thank you.
23 MEMBER CASSIS: I wanted you to
24 know that.
1 MR. QUINLEY: I appreciate
2 that, sir.
3 MEMBER CASSIS: We want to
4 help. And I would say that if you go and
5 look at those signs and take another look
6 at it, and get your expert opinion from
7 your sign man and see what is the best
9 And for this Fourteen Mile one,
10 as far as I'm concerned, if raising that
11 sign beyond six feet, or what have you, I
12 would approve -- if that is what makes
13 you visible and would make you happy with
14 that, Mr. Chairman, I would be inclined
15 to vote that way. So to give him a
16 direction on my determination.
17 MR. QUINLEY: Appreciate
19 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Thank you,
20 Mr. Cassis.
21 Any other questions? Then,
22 Ms. Martin, please call the roll.
23 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
1 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
2 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
3 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
5 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
6 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
7 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?
8 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Yes.
9 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?
10 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
12 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
13 MS. MARTIN: Motion passes,
14 seven to zero, for the December 14th
16 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: That brings
17 us to the other matter section of the
18 agenda. Does the city staff or city
19 attorney have any comments or questions?
20 MS. KUDLA: No, we don't.
21 MR. BOULARD: For those of you
22 who didn't already notice, I was -- I
23 jumped the gun in indicating that our
24 invitations for the appreciation dinner
1 would come out by e-mail. That was
2 apparently for employees. So, there is
3 an invitation, and unless you are a dual
4 member of the planning commission, in
5 which case hopefully (inaudible) one from
6 the planning commission.
7 MEMBER CASSIS: I will put
8 Nancy on that.
9 MR. BOULARD: If you don't
10 mind, virtually your entire packet, you
11 go in the folder, and if you want to
12 leave it on your desk, we'll try to be as
13 green as possible and reduce (inaudible).
14 Thank you.
15 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: Does any
16 board member have any matters to discuss
17 at this time? Seeing none, this
18 concludes our business for the evening,
19 and I will entertain a motion to
21 MEMBER CASSIS: So move.
22 MEMBER IBE: Second.
23 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: We have a
24 motion and second to adjourn. All those
1 in favor, please signify by saying aye.
2 THE BOARD: Aye.
3 CHAIRMAN WROBEL: All opposed?
4 Thank you. The meeting is adjourned at
6 - - -
3 C E R T I F I C A T E
5 I, Sherri L. Ruff, do hereby certify
6 that I have recorded stenographically the
7 proceedings had and testimony taken in
8 the above-entitled matter at the time and
9 place hereinbefore set forth, and I do
10 further certify that the foregoing
11 transcript, consisting of (47)
12 typewritten pages, is a true and correct
13 transcript of my said stenographic notes.
15 ___________ _____________________
Date Sherri L. Ruff, CSR-3568
16 Certified Shorthand Reporter