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TUESDAY, MAY 11, 2010

Proceedings had and Testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, March 16, 2010.

Wayne Wrobel, Chairperson
Mav Sanghvi
Victor Cassis
Rickie Ibe
Linda Krieger
David Ghannam
Donna Skelcy
Jeffrey Gedeon

Beth Kudla, City Attorney
Charles Boulard, Building Official
Malinda Martin, Senior Customer Service Representative

Sherri L. Ruff, Certified Shorthand Reporter

1 Novi, Michigan

2 Tuesday, May 11, 2010

3 7:00 p.m.

4 - - -


6 evening. It is 7 p.m., and I'd like to

7 call to order the May 11 regular meeting

8 of the City of Novi Zoning Board of

9 Appeals.

10 Would everyone please rise for

11 the Pledge of Allegiance.

12 Member Krieger, please lead us.

13 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge

14 allegiance to the flag of the United

15 States of America. And to the republic

16 for which it stands, one nation, under

17 God, indivisible, with liberty and

18 justice for all.


20 Ms. Martin, would you please call the

21 roll.

22 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


24 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?






2 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


4 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?

5 MEMBER IBE: Present.

6 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


8 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


10 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?


12 MS. MARTIN: Member Gedeon?



15 do have a quorum, and the meeting is now

16 in session.

17 As a reminder, please make sure

18 all cellphone and pager ringers are

19 turned off at this time.

20 At this time, I'd also like to

21 go over some of the meeting rules. A

22 copy of the entire public meeting rules

23 of conduct is available next to the

24 chamber entrance door.





1 The Zoning Board of Appeals is

2 a hearing board empowered by the City of

3 Novi to hear appeals, seeking variances

4 from the existing zoning Novi ordinances.

5 It takes a vote of at least four members

6 to approve a variance request, and a

7 majority of members present to deny a

8 variance.

9 Tonight we have a full board,

10 so all the decisions will be final.

11 Individual applicants may take

12 up to five minutes, and groups may take

13 up to ten minutes to address the board.

14 The next item on the agenda is

15 the approval of the agenda. Are there

16 any additions, deletions or changes to

17 the proposed agenda?

18 MS. MARTIN: No, there is not.


20 Seeing none, I will entertain a motion to

21 approve.

22 MEMBER CASSIS: So move.







1 have a motion and a second. All those in

2 favor, please signify by saying aye.



5 opposed, signify by saying no. We have

6 an approved agenda.

7 Next is the approval of the

8 meeting minutes from the April 13, 2010

9 meeting. Are there any changes to the

10 minutes?

11 Seeing none, I will entertain a

12 motion to approve the minutes.


14 MEMBER IBE: Second.


16 those in favor, please signify by saying

17 aye.



20 opposed, say no. The meeting minutes

21 have been approved.

22 Next on the agenda is the

23 public remarks section of the meeting.

24 Is there anyone in the audience who





1 wishes to make any comments not

2 pertaining to any matter on the agenda

3 tonight, please come forward.

4 Seeing none, the public remarks

5 section of the meeting is closed.

6 This brings us to the cases on

7 the agenda this evening.

8 The first case is Case No.

9 ZBA10-009 from MacKenzie North Technology

10 Center. Brian J. Hughes of HCP Land,

11 LLC, is requesting a variance to allow an

12 extension of ZBA08-066 for a

13 32-square-foot leasing sign for MacKenzie

14 North Technology Center.

15 The property is zoned OST and

16 is located west of Haggerty Road and

17 north of Thirteen Mile Road.

18 Is the petitioner here?

19 MR. HUGHES: Yes, I am.


21 Please state your name and address for

22 the record.

23 MR. HUGHES: Brian Hughes,

24 32870 Wing Lake Road, Franklin,





1 Michigan.


3 not an attorney, please raise your right

4 hand and be sworn in by our secretary.

5 MR. IBE: In Case No. 10-009,

6 MacKenzie North Technology Center, do you

7 swear or affirm to tell the truth in this

8 case?

9 MR. HUGHES: I do.

10 MR. IBE: Thank you.


12 You can proceed with your presentation.

13 MR. HUGHES: I'm here

14 representing HCP Land, and approximately

15 over a year ago we were here asking for a

16 variance that would allow us to have a

17 larger than what's allowed sign for

18 leasing purposes for a building we

19 propose to build at the intersection of

20 MacKenzie and Haggerty Road.

21 And, unfortunately, as

22 everybody knows, the economy has been

23 rather difficult, and we have yet to

24 build this building, our sister building,





1 that's planned for across the street. We

2 did take that sign down a year ago, but

3 this one went up with the interest and

4 expectation that at some point in the

5 future we'll be building the building.

6 We have had an extension from

7 the planning department as far as the

8 building permit and for the site plan

9 approval, and that's good for another

10 year, as well.

11 So, it's our hope, and we are

12 seeing some encouraging signs that there

13 is some movement, and we would like to

14 leave this sign up at least for another

15 year. And, if possible, we would like a

16 two-year extension. But we are asking

17 for a minimum of a one-year.

18 If there is any questions?


20 Thank you.

21 Is there anyone in the audience

22 who wishes to address the board regarding

23 this case? Seeing none, will the

24 secretary read any correspondence into





1 the record

2 MR. IBE: In Case No. 10-009,

3 MacKenzie North Technology, 39 notices

4 were mailed. Zero responses, three mail

5 returned.


7 Does the building department or the city

8 attorney wish to make any comments?

9 MS. KUDLA: No.

10 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.


12 thank you. Then, at this time, I will

13 turn this matter over to the board for

14 discussion.

15 MEMBER GEDEON: I guess I will

16 start.

17 In the past year -- let me back

18 up a moment. Is it commonplace to put

19 the sign up before the building is

20 constructed? Is that the intent that you

21 are finding tenants -- prospective

22 tenants before you even build a building?

23 MR. HUGHES: Yeah. This is

24 actually -- we do planning in advance in





1 anticipation of our inventories

2 (unintelligible), and it's leased at 70

3 percent, 75 percent, 90 percent.

4 And, in our case, we are still a little

5 bit above 90 percent leased. And we have

6 to have product available for tenants.

7 Because the process takes anywhere from

8 six months to a year. Especially if you

9 are doing new construction.

10 This we found to be helpful to

11 do a pictorial, because it gives the

12 prospective tenants an idea of what the

13 building will look like. This is common.

14 We have been doing these pictorial signs

15 for years.

16 MEMBER GEDEON: Do you have a

17 sense that having the sign in the past

18 year has actually attracted any potential

19 tenants?

20 MR. HUGHES: There have been

21 inquiries, yes. But most of the tenants

22 we have been leasing to in the last year,

23 year and a half, have been for buildings

24 that have already been built.





1 MEMBER GEDEON: Is there a

2 particular reason why the sign is double

3 the allowable size?

4 MR. HUGHES: Well, the reason

5 being is in the past we have done

6 pictorial signs that are larger, and we

7 are trying to draw attention to this

8 particular area, which is part of our

9 phase two development. It's on the east

10 side towards the north end and a little

11 less visible.

12 Ryder Logistics is a building

13 we built at Thirteen and Cabot, and it is

14 quite a presence. It's a three-story

15 building, 150,000 square feet, so this is

16 one that we are trying to bring more

17 attention to.

18 MEMBER GEDEON: What other

19 forms of marketing do you have for these

20 potential buildings?

21 MR. HUGHES: We have a website,

22 which is also located on the sign that

23 draws attention. We are well known in

24 the broker communities. There is a lot





1 of brokers that are also, you know,

2 bringing prospective tenants. But we

3 still rely a lot on drive-through and

4 drive-by traffic.

5 MEMBER GEDEON: Thank you.

6 MR. HUGHES: You're welcome.


8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you,

9 Mr. Chair. Everybody knows about the

10 economy and difficulty bringing or

11 leasing anything. And I think this is a

12 problem, which is not only particular to

13 Novi, but to all over Michigan. And they

14 have a genuine problem, and I personally

15 have no objection granting the request

16 for continuing the sign for a period of

17 one year as they have asked. Thank you.


19 Member Sanghvi. Member Cassis.


21 reiterate my colleague's remarks, that

22 with the economy as it is, and this is

23 going to be a big project, big building.

24 And, naturally, they would want to inform





1 prospective leaser or lessee, what they

2 have to offer. And so I think a kind of

3 a sign like that that informs them is

4 pretty legitimate, if it is a little bit

5 big bigger than what the ordinance tells,

6 but I think with the immensity of the

7 project and also the way it sits on that

8 property, which is large property there.

9 I don't see being any problems

10 visual-wise to any -- any people driving

11 or obstruction of view or anything.

12 So, I would go along with the

13 extension on this.


15 Member Cassis.

16 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,

17 Mr. Chair.


19 else?

20 Okay. Seeing that all board

21 members have had the opportunity to speak

22 in this matter, I will entertain a

23 motion.

24 MEMBER CASSIS: In the matter





1 of Case No. 10-009, MacKenzie North

2 Technology Center, I move to grant an

3 extension to this erection of this --

4 continuance of this sign. The request is

5 based upon circumstances and features

6 that are exceptional and unique to the

7 property and do not result from

8 conditions that exist generally in the

9 city or that are self-created.

10 And the failure to grant the

11 relief will unreasonably prevent or limit

12 the use of the property and will result

13 in substantially more than mere

14 inconvenience or inability to attain a

15 higher economic financial return.

16 I think that sums it up,

17 anyhow.



20 MEMBER GHANNAM: Would you want

21 to do a time limitation?

22 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, we

23 have been granting a year. But, let's

24 face it, let's do it for a year, anyhow.





1 But I can grant you that -- I can say

2 that in another year they will be coming

3 back. I hope not. I hope you go through

4 the whole thing with the building and

5 lease it and everything before a year,

6 but I just don't see it. But if that's

7 what you want to do, I will put it for a

8 year.


10 MEMBER CASSIS: Is that okay?

11 MR. HUGHES: Yes.


13 Sanghvi, is that okay with you?

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's fine.


16 motion. Any other discussion? If not,

17 Ms. Martin, please call the roll.

18 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


20 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


22 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


24 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?






2 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


4 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


6 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



9 Motion passes, seven-zero.

10 MR. HUGHES: Thanks very much.

11 MEMBER CASSIS: Good luck.


13 the agenda is Case No. ZBA09-042,

14 43025 to 43043 Grand River Avenue, Novi

15 Food Center.

16 The petitioner is requesting

17 setback variances to permit construction

18 of parking lot improvements and expansion

19 of the parking lot located in the front

20 yard of four existing retail buildings

21 located at 43025 to 43043 Grand River

22 Avenue.

23 The property is zoned TC-1,

24 Town Center, and is located on the south





1 side of Grand River Avenue between Sixth

2 Gate Road and Main Street. Various

3 retail tenants currently occupy the

4 property.

5 Would you please state your

6 name and address for the record, sir.

7 MR. KACHMAN: Yes, my name is

8 Ron Kachman. I'm with Design and

9 Construction Group, 291 Elmwood, Troy,

10 Michigan.


12 not an attorney, please raise your hand

13 to be sworn in by our secretary.

14 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in Case No.

15 09-042, 43025 through 43043 Grand River

16 Avenue, Novi Food Center, do you swear or

17 affirm to tell the truth in this case?

18 MR. KACHMAN: I do.

19 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


21 proceed, sir.

22 MR. KACHMAN: Yes. We are

23 before you -- we have been granted

24 preliminary site plan approval on this





1 site, based upon the variances that we

2 were requesting.

3 The variances became not a

4 problem, but a situation that the

5 property -- the front of the buildings

6 are on the front property line, and there

7 was a vacated 42-foot right-of-way that

8 we occupied that the city attorney found

9 that when they vacated that right-of-way,

10 it wasn't I think part of the subdivision

11 that we are in. So, the city basically

12 owns that property, which created the

13 problem with the setbacks and the

14 additional parking.

15 I think, as you see in our

16 submittal, that we are extensively

17 remodeling the whole front of the

18 approach area, providing the landscaping,

19 a sidewalk. And in the back of the

20 building, we are also putting additional

21 parking and our loading zone, and also

22 for a trash enclosure in the back of the

23 building for additional parking for that

24 site.





1 We are a little on the short

2 side of the -- for parking, that's why we

3 are expanding it in the front and also in

4 the back. This -- the configuration you

5 see there will allow traffic to circulate

6 through the Novi Party Store and into

7 this site and, vice versa, and out

8 through the back. So, we feel that this

9 would be an improvement to the city's

10 scape along Grand River, and hope that

11 you will grant us this variance.


13 Thank you.

14 MR. KACHMAN: Thank you.


16 anyone in the audience who wishes to

17 address the board regarding this case?

18 Yes, ma'am, please come

19 forward.

20 MS. BUTTON: Good evening.


22 state your name and address be sworn

23 in.

24 MS. BUTTON: Rose Button. I





1 own 43089 Grand River, here in Novi.

2 Adjacent to the property we are talking

3 about.

4 Truly, I don't see too many

5 concerns about it.


7 swear you in first, ma'am.

8 MEMBER IBE: Could you please

9 raise your right hand.

10 MS. BUTTON: Right hand.

11 MEMBER IBE: In Case No.

12 09-042, 43025-43043 Grand River Avenue,

13 Novi Food Center, do you swear or affirm

14 to tell the truth in this case?

15 MS. BUTTON: Yes.

16 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


18 ma'am.

19 MS. BUTTON: Okay. My building

20 is right next door to them. And that

21 42-foot easement that he's talking about

22 was abandoned by the state. And I forget

23 what year now, but at the time my father

24 petitioned and took ownership of the part





1 in front of our building. He also was

2 the one that built that what is called

3 the subdivision.

4 So, my only concern with doing

5 the way he has and, forgive me, I haven't

6 studied the grading too much, but as it

7 is right now, that property does drain

8 into my retention drains, which I can

9 check with the Department of Public

10 Works. They were out there about a

11 week-and-a-half ago, because my retention

12 drains were full and backing up into the

13 bathtubs into my apartment buildings

14 there.

15 The run-off is really coming

16 over into my retention area very badly.

17 So, if he goes ahead, just as long as he

18 makes sure that the grading sloped a

19 little more in a different direction,

20 into his catch basin, so it doesn't

21 naturally drain into mine, I think

22 everybody will be a little more happy.

23 And then the other concern I

24 have, the property line for the back of





1 my building is back there with that.

2 It's a pretty tree, but a bunch of weeds

3 and other debris that I'm not too happy

4 about, but at this point have not done

5 anything about. And there is -- it's

6 supposed to be an eight-foot utility

7 easement through there that's been used

8 as an easement to access the back of that

9 property many years. And my concern is,

10 will that property revert back onto my

11 site? Which is the way the original

12 surveying stakes were put in. And, if

13 so, would I be able to -- since he's got

14 a block, natural block, he's putting curb

15 and gutter, I believe, along there, can I

16 go ahead and landscape and maybe put my

17 dumpster back there in a covered area,

18 like I know you all would appreciate.

19 And those are the only concerns

20 I have with what he wants to do.


22 Thank you.

23 Is there anyone else in the

24 audience who wishes to address the board?





1 Seeing none, will the secretary read any

2 correspondence regarding this case in the

3 record, please.

4 MEMBER IBE: ZBA09-042, 22

5 notices were mailed. Zero responses, one

6 mail return.


8 Does the building department or city

9 attorney wish to add anything at this

10 time?

11 MR. BOULARD: I would like to

12 mention, Mark Spencer is here. He is

13 familiar with the project from the

14 planning process and would be able to

15 answer any questions.


17 Mr. Spencer, do you have anything you

18 wish to add at this time to the board?

19 MR. SPENCER: Sure. Unless you

20 would rather hear from the city attorney

21 first.

22 MS. KUDLA: It's up to you. I

23 can elaborate on right-of-way issue or --

24 MR. SPENCER: Okay.






2 you guys think will flow best.

3 MS. KUDLA: Basically, what's

4 going on is the road commission attempted

5 to vacate that right-of-way several years

6 back. But when we -- our office looked

7 at it, it appears that it's a platted

8 subdivision rather than a county

9 right-of-way. So there is a portion of

10 it that the city is still seeking at some

11 point to vacate and hopes to be able to

12 do that, but it hasn't been able to get

13 all the property owners in the

14 discussion. Because portions would have

15 to be quit-claimed back to the property

16 owners. So it's still the intent to do

17 that at some point, but it hasn't been

18 able to be accomplished yet.

19 So that's why the need for

20 this. And there will be license

21 agreements in place. Until such time

22 that's able to be completed and cost

23 access and easements, those will be

24 completed as part of the site plan





1 process.

2 I don't know if anyone has any

3 questions, I can elaborate on that.


5 thank you.

6 Mr. Spencer.

7 MR. SPENCER: Good evening. To

8 further that discussion, if I could ask

9 that the lights get lowered to see the

10 overhead here, we can explain that a

11 little bit further.

12 On the screen here you will see

13 an arrow with some lines drawn in it.

14 The dash lines are basically the

15 subdivision boundary lines, and you can

16 see, that the lot in question for the

17 food service parcels. Mrs. Button's

18 parcel, who you just heard from, and

19 there is a video store to the east of

20 that. Those parcels are in a different

21 subdivision. They are in the Novi Garden

22 Subdivision; whereas, the road

23 right-of-way was in the Novi Manor

24 Subdivision.





1 So by the Road Commission

2 vacating their highway easement, it

3 didn't transfer to the neighboring

4 property owners because it was in a

5 different subdivision. This is what the

6 city attorney has been working on, and we

7 very greatly would like to meet with

8 Mrs. Button or her attorney on this, too.

9 He's been trying to set up a meeting for

10 quite some time on this here to help

11 facilitate this.

12 Because this could benefit all

13 three of the property owners along this

14 frontage here by the city being able to

15 deed over this right-of-way to them as

16 part of their property.

17 Irrespective of that, there

18 still would have been a variance required

19 for this because of the parking lot and

20 the structure would still not meet

21 setback requirements. The drive access

22 aisles would still have been in there.

23 So this is the worst case scenario.

24 The property line is at the





1 front of the building, and this is the

2 greatest amount of variance that would be

3 required for this as the way it's

4 configured right now.

5 As the applicant mentioned, and

6 I will show you he's proposing some

7 improvements to the site. The city's

8 encouraged these improvements. The

9 applicant first came and had improvements

10 for the rear part of the parking lot.

11 The connection to the parking lot that

12 the city owns is kind of kitty-corner

13 behind the fire station and extends over

14 to Sixth Gate.

15 At that time we suggested to

16 the applicant that he work on the front

17 parking lot at the same time and make

18 some improvements there, because the cost

19 of mobilizing the equipment is probably

20 the biggest cost on these small projects.

21 And with the equipment already there in

22 place, this would be a natural and

23 economic time for him to do work on the

24 front yard, too. So, we encourage that.





1 And the planning staff is in

2 favor of these variances; we support

3 them. And we think this is going to be a

4 big improvement to the area. It's going

5 to bring that driveway across Grand River

6 to connect with the driveway on -- in

7 front of the party store itself. So it

8 will -- it also reduces the size of the

9 apron, so there is less chance people are

10 going to try to back up onto Grand River

11 here. We think it's going to provide

12 safety there.

13 Engineering has reviewed these

14 plans. As usual, they are going to make

15 sure the drainage doesn't affect

16 neighboring properties, so I'm sure

17 that's not going to be an issue. But we

18 relayed Mrs. Button's concerns to the

19 engineering department on this.

20 And I'm available if you have

21 any questions on this.


23 Mr. Spencer. At this time, I will refer

24 this matter to the board for





1 discussion.

2 Ms. Skelcy.

3 MEMBER SKELCY: I wanted to let

4 Ms. Button know we are here about the

5 variances, not about issues regarding the

6 overflow of the water. However, I do

7 have a concern about that. Is that being

8 addressed by the city at all?

9 MR. BOULARD: I'm not -- I'm

10 not sure. I'm a little confused by why

11 water in the parking lot would cause the

12 storm system to cause back-up into the

13 sanitary system. But I will be happy to

14 speak to the utilities folks in the

15 morning about that.

16 MS. SKELCY: Okay.

17 MR. BOULARD: If I can ask,

18 have the utility folks been out to your

19 site?

20 MS. BUTTON: Yeah. We've got

21 it under control. If you do more paving

22 and you don't pay attention to that

23 drainage, that puts more over in there,

24 then there may be a problem. And I know





1 the engineers usually look at that pretty

2 closely, but I just wanted to raise that.

3 And there is one other thing I

4 didn't think. How are you planning to

5 get people from your --

6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Ma'am, excuse

7 me. Can you come to the podium?

8 MS. BUTTON: How are you

9 planning to have the people go from the

10 back parking lot up to the front of the

11 stores? I don't see any pedestrian

12 traffic for the front of the stores.

13 MR. KACHMAN: The driveway and

14 through the Novi Party Store is owned by

15 the same people that own all of it.

16 MS. BUTTON: Right.

17 MR. KACHMAN: So they come out

18 and go that way, or they go right out to

19 the back.

20 MS. BUTTON: Okay. All right.

21 MR. KACHMAN: It's all curved

22 along that, your property line, also.

23 MS. BUTTON: Right. But,

24 usually, if you don't have some markings





1 or something, they are going to come

2 by --

3 MR. KACHMAN: We have the

4 regular curb and we have two catch basins

5 in the back of the parking lot tied into

6 the new catch basin that's in the --

7 MS. BUTTON: In the front.

8 MR. KACHMAN: To the south. It

9 will all be properly drained.

10 MS. BUTTON: Okay, no problem.

11 Like I said, I don't have an issue with

12 what you are trying to do.

13 MR. KACHMAN: Sure. It can

14 only help everybody.

15 MS. BUTTON: Yeah.

16 MEMBER SKELCY: I would be in

17 favor of the variances being requested

18 based on the fact that there is going to

19 be adequate drainage. I think it's going

20 to greatly improve the appearance of the

21 strip mall area. So, that's all I have.


23 Thank you.

24 Member Cassis.





1 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. I guess

2 everything that Ms. Button, who used to

3 serve on these boards before, long time

4 ago, have been addressed. Is that true,

5 Ms. Button?

6 MS. BUTTON: I don't know. I

7 only learned about the whole idea about

8 two weeks ago. Maybe not even two weeks

9 ago.

10 MEMBER CASSIS: I'm sure --

11 MS. BUTTON: When I got the

12 public notice.

13 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman,

14 thank you for acknowledging me.

15 You know, I have seen this area

16 developed from way back 1975, '76, ever

17 since I have been here. And those

18 buildings have been brought up to date

19 continuously, and the area has been much

20 improved. And with the erection of that

21 party store that is put up there, and the

22 people are using it, and it is quite

23 attractive. It has passed all of our

24 ordinances at that time.





1 And I can see where these

2 people have spent so much money putting

3 into this project. I mean, I can imagine

4 all the expenses that have been put into

5 this project. Would you say that there

6 was a lot?

7 MR. KACHMAN: Yeah. I have

8 been working on the project with the

9 family since they had the party store up

10 at the front corner over there. And we

11 were before the planning commission, the

12 Town Center board, and they are the ones

13 that suggested that we move the building

14 right up next to the other three, so it

15 looks like it's part of a center.

16 MEMBER CASSIS: That's right.

17 MR. KACHMAN: That's how we

18 started the development of it. And then

19 we tried to share a driveway with the

20 people next door, and that didn't work.

21 And then finally we just ended up with

22 what you see.

23 And by us putting this parking

24 lot in the front and tying it all the way





1 through, it utilized the parking all the

2 way to the front of the party store.

3 Because the consignment people that have

4 their shop have a problem with parking,

5 so that's the biggest thing. And we

6 would like to keep all the tenants in

7 that building by having additional

8 parking; that would keep them in there.

9 And they can come in through the back way

10 to get in those shops, also, by parking

11 behind it, too.

12 And it keeps -- right now, you

13 just see a dumpster sitting out there and

14 a fence. They come in off of her

15 property to get into it; that's the only

16 way they can get into it. This will

17 clear all that up, clean it all up, give

18 her all access behind her building, and I

19 think it's good for everybody.

20 MEMBER CASSIS: How about that

21 situation, in the back of Mrs. Button's

22 talking about?

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Drainage.






1 drainage.

2 MR. KACHMAN: The drainage

3 issue, well, that is taken care of within

4 our own site. We have a curb along that

5 whole property line, so no water will go

6 her way at all, and he have to detain

7 water behind ours.

8 MEMBER CASSIS: She was talking

9 about something in the back.

10 MR. KACHMAN: There is a

11 utility easement that runs along the

12 whole property line all the way across

13 there.

14 MEMBER CASSIS: How is that

15 going to be handled?

16 MR. KACHMAN: That would go --

17 that will still be on her property. We

18 have a utility easement on ours; we are

19 landscaping ours. What there is right

20 now, I believe is the only way to get

21 into behind the site, they drive down the

22 utility easement to service the dumpster.

23 Once that's taken care of, there won't be

24 any of that anymore. Then that will --





1 MEMBER CASSIS: So everybody

2 will be on their own?

3 MR. KACHMAN: Right, everybody

4 will be on their own property.


6 MR. KACHMAN: That's the other

7 reason we are doing that, also, to help

8 alleviate this problem.

9 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Spencer, is

10 that the case?

11 MR. SPENCER: That is the case.

12 And just to throw in on a side note. If

13 Mrs. Button wants to improve her

14 property, we would be glad to review with

15 her requirements of the site plan, or if

16 one is needed to make those improvements.

17 But he's correct, by placing

18 that curb there, the food store people

19 will not be crossing that property line

20 through that existing easement.

21 MEMBER CASSIS: Good thing.

22 Mr. Chairman, this has been such a

23 difficult site to put together these

24 three or four different buildings. And





1 engineered it in such a way as to bring

2 it up to date. I mean, as it is now,

3 cars coming off Grand River will just go

4 in there without notice of where the road

5 is or where the access is or whatever,

6 and splash the water all over the place.

7 Drainage was not good, and it's not

8 worked.

9 This has got to be quite an

10 improvement in that site. And with the

11 approval of our people here, the staff,

12 and the way that traffic is going to flow

13 with that, also pedestrian accesses, I

14 can't see any better way to engineer this

15 thing. Although, I'm not an engineer,

16 but looks like quite a bit of effort was

17 put into this by this gentleman here,

18 this architect.

19 So, as far as I'm concerned,

20 this is an improvement on what is

21 existing, and I will go along with it.


23 Member Cassis. Anybody else?

24 Member Sanghvi.





1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you,

2 sir. Well, I think it's very hard for

3 people who come to Novi recently, they

4 cannot visualize what it was like even

5 before the Town Center was conceived.

6 And all these rows of building were

7 there, and you don't even know what Sixth

8 Gate was all about; it's history now.

9 So, the fact still remains,

10 this is a little eyesore in that corner.

11 And with this improvement, it's a win-win

12 situation for everybody who is concerning

13 this property. So I have no hesitation

14 in supporting this really quite a change

15 in the circumstance there. Thank you.


17 Member Sanghvi. Anybody else?

18 Seeing no one else, I will add a couple


20 I, too, will support this. I

21 appreciate the investment you are making

22 in this city to improve this property,

23 and it will only help beautify the area

24 and make it a lot more easy to drive





1 through.

2 That being said, I will

3 entertain a motion in this matter.

4 MEMBER CASSIS: Best motion

5 maker.


7 Skelcy.

8 MEMBER SKELCY: In the case of

9 09-042, the address of 43025-43043 Grand

10 River Avenue, I make a motion to grant

11 the setback variances to permit

12 construction of the parking lot

13 improvements and expansion of the parking

14 lot, located in the front of the four

15 existing retail buildings.

16 This is based on the fact that

17 the frontage, setback, density

18 requirements unreasonably prevent the use

19 of the property for permitted purpose,

20 that the variance will provide

21 substantial justice to the petitioners

22 and surrounding property owners in the

23 zoning district.

24 There are unique circumstances





1 to the property, the problem is not

2 self-created, adequate light and air

3 provided to adjacent properties, there is

4 no increase in fire or public safety

5 danger. Property values will not be

6 diminished in the surrounding area, and

7 it is within the spirit of the zoning

8 law -- zoning ordinance.



11 motion by Member Skelcy, second by

12 Member Ghannam. Is there any further

13 discussion with the board?



16 none, please take the roll.

17 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


19 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


21 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


23 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?






1 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


3 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


5 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



8 passes, seven to zero.

9 Next on the agenda is Case No.

10 ZBA10-010, 21650 Novi Road, Estate

11 Storage.

12 The petitioner is requesting

13 variances from Article 24 and Section

14 2505 Section 2 of the zoning ordinance,

15 and 28-10, Items B, 11, A, 3 and 4 of the

16 sign ordinance, to allow pick-up and

17 drop-off parking of rental vehicles in

18 the front yard of an existing storage

19 facility.

20 The property is zoned I-1 and

21 is south of Nine Mile Road and east of

22 Novi Road.

23 Please state your name and

24 address.





1 MR. LAPHAM: Chuck Lapham,

2 18412 Blue Heron Drive, Northville.


4 are not an attorney, please raise your

5 hand and be sworn in by our secretary.

6 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in Case No.

7 10-010, 21650 Novi Road, Estate Storage,

8 do you swear or affirm to tell the truth

9 in this case?

10 MR. LAPHAM: Yes.

11 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


13 proceed, sir.

14 MR. LAPHAM: We were cited for

15 parking or storing a truck out in front

16 of our gate, and it included a sign on

17 the truck. This is the first time in our

18 rental history that we have run into this

19 situation. And we've had three months to

20 consider how we can get involved in due

21 diligence to try to adhere to the

22 ordinance.

23 Now, I can only hope that you

24 will see and give us indulgence in the





1 fact that the truck has somebody's name

2 on it; this seems to be an infraction.

3 And the truck -- and we have had the

4 courtesy of in-house counsel, shall we

5 say, to eliminate the storage aspect and

6 go to parking.

7 Now, we have a high security

8 situation there. It's not that we want

9 to put those trucks out there if we don't

10 have to. But we can't tell when we are

11 going to get one dropped off, because the

12 company has that right to designate the

13 drop-off. We have to be

14 Johnny-on-the-spot then, we find, to get

15 it checked in, because they are not

16 allowed to drive through our security

17 gate unless they have a code. And,

18 obviously, customers renting a truck do

19 not have a code.

20 We would like to have time to

21 get the truck in or out. We don't let

22 the customer pick up the truck inside.

23 We think -- damage history, they allow

24 these people who come in and rent a truck





1 who have never been in one before, let

2 alone back up a trailer, if they have

3 one. So, we do the paperwork, and we set

4 the truck out.

5 Now, that particular picture,

6 if it's heading out, that means that they

7 are going to pick it up within an hour or

8 so. Now, we might have left it out there

9 for three or four hours, not knowing that

10 an ordinance said we couldn't. Maybe

11 that's where they came up with the idea

12 of we are storing our equipment out

13 there.

14 But it's temporarily parked,

15 and we were given, thankfully, some

16 information as to if we could get --

17 realistically ask for your indulgence

18 here. And I don't know if you have page

19 31 and 32 of what was passed out to the

20 applicants, but it does give us rebuttal

21 presumption, which I'm thankful that they

22 had; it helps me a little bit.

23 And on page 32 of it,

24 apparently, if we can convince everybody





1 that that vehicle is temporarily there,

2 not stored there or parked as you think

3 parked; it's there for a short period of

4 time.

5 But, I guess they were trying

6 to give us a lesson. I got a call Monday

7 night, Saturday night, that there was a

8 26-footer that somebody had dropped off

9 there; we didn't know it was coming in.

10 And it was -- the back bumper was

11 somewhat over the sidewalk. And he said

12 the customer left the keys in it. We

13 never had that happen in all these years.

14 I thought, tomorrow, I have to

15 appear, and I wanted to do it in the best

16 form. So, we didn't know what to do with

17 it, and we couldn't get any help from the

18 company. So, unfortunately, the police

19 came over and did a perfect B & E job,

20 got us the keys, and we were able then to

21 put it back in a secured area.

22 Once in a while, one might be

23 out there a little longer than -- there

24 is no time limit on this, I know, but we





1 are going to do the best we can if this

2 is a concern to the folks. It must be,

3 or we wouldn't have an ordinance. And we

4 would like to be able to deliver the

5 truck outside of the gate, if it's not

6 there for more than an hour or so, facing

7 out. If you see it facing in, we haven't

8 had time to check it in.

9 So, we are asking that you can

10 help us to adhere to our security for our

11 customers, because we have three gates

12 there, and we have cameras. And we don't

13 even have padlocks; we have shunt locks.

14 We are trying to do the best we can to

15 secure the property of our customers.

16 So, we hope that with your

17 indulgence, maybe we can continue leasing

18 a truck.


20 Thank you, sir.

21 Is there anyone in the audience

22 who wishes to address the board regarding

23 this issue? Seeing none, will the

24 secretary please read any correspondence





1 into the record.

2 MEMBER IBE: Zero responses,

3 two mail returned.


5 MEMBER IBE: You're welcome,

6 sir.


8 building department or city attorney wish

9 to make any comments?

10 MS. KUDLA: We have nothing.

11 MR. BOULARD: Just a couple

12 comments, if I could. This business has

13 an office building and a wrought iron

14 fence, which are right up against the --

15 basically against the front setback. The

16 gentleman rents U-Haul trucks, and there

17 is two spaces that are behind the

18 setback, technically, but they are real

19 tight there, just south of the office

20 there.

21 The issue for us is that A, we

22 had trucks that were parked out there in

23 the front setback for a time. And in

24 some cases where, in most cases, where





1 the trucks are fairly large, they need to

2 be out, you know. They are out in what's

3 essentially the driveway. And they are

4 in the front setback and, hence, the

5 ordinance violation.

6 The other thing is, that if you

7 have the sign ordinance specifically

8 addresses vehicles that are painted up

9 with signs, and these trucks are, they

10 are advertising on most of the panels.

11 So, in order to accommodate all the parts

12 of the request, we asked the gentleman to

13 come forward with a request to park for

14 certain amounts of time in the front

15 setback. And, as I understand, it would

16 be after vehicles are dropped off or

17 before they are picked up. They might

18 occasionally be over night if they come

19 late at night, but that's it. As soon as

20 the business is open, they would be

21 moved.

22 And then by including the

23 section about the sign, we would also

24 deal with the fact the trucks are painted





1 as they are, and kill two birds with one

2 stone, so to speak.

3 So, that's the request. I

4 would be happy to answer any questions.


6 At this time I will refer this matter to

7 the board for discussion. Who would like

8 to begin?

9 Ms. Skelcy.

10 MEMBER SKELCY: Mr. Lapham, I

11 was wondering why you can't wait to pull

12 the trucks out until the customer

13 actually arrives on the property? Why do

14 you have to park it out in front before

15 they arrive?

16 MR. LAPHAM: We have learned

17 our lesson. They cannot go behind the

18 gates and take possession of the truck

19 and try and navigate it out of there.

20 MEMBER SKELCY: That's not --

21 my question is, why can't you wait until

22 they arrive and then have one of your

23 staff pull it out at that time, instead

24 of doing it ahead of time?





1 MR. LAPHAM: Okay. Good

2 question. For the convenience of the

3 customer, we like to look our best, if we

4 can. And we might only have one manager

5 there at the time. We have already got

6 the paperwork done, keys are in the cab,

7 and the manager might be out showing

8 somebody some property, or a unit, or

9 tied up inside the office and can't get

10 out there.

11 And, besides, we don't want

12 that person taking possession behind our

13 gates. We've got the damage to prove it.

14 We had to rebuild a golf cart that seems

15 to be in the way; it was sitting.

16 MEMBER SKELCY: That doesn't

17 really answer the question. If you have

18 a management staff person who is helping

19 another customer, then they can't take

20 care of the person who wants the truck

21 anyway. So the person who wants the

22 truck has to wait no matter what.

23 MR. LAPHAM: Oh, you mean why

24 don't we go and get the truck and print





1 it out at the time?


3 MR. LAPHAM: We can, probably,

4 most of the time. I don't want to get an

5 infraction because this person wants to

6 pick it up say at 5:30; we are gone. And

7 we would still like to rent it, and we

8 set it out there, and they come by, and

9 it's worked that way for years.

10 MEMBER SKELCY: How do they get

11 the keys if there is nobody there?

12 MR. LAPHAM: It's all

13 programmed inside the car. We've got the

14 paperwork done, the person knows where

15 the keys are, and they just pick it up.

16 They do the same way when they drop it

17 off; we don't have to be there. And a

18 lot of times we don't even know what's

19 coming in..

20 So, I would say you might see

21 more trucks facing in than you will out.

22 We have a little less control when they

23 tell somebody to drop a truck off at our

24 place, like in the evening, it might be a





1 Sunday. But we do the best we can to get

2 them behind the gate.

3 MEMBER SKELCY: You know, I

4 drove by your place today, and it's very

5 well landscaped, and it's kind of a shame

6 you have trucks out in front, because it

7 really hides how nice your property

8 looks.

9 MR. LAPHAM: Well, I take pride

10 in my property. In fact, we got a

11 beautification award for it, because this

12 is the first storage facility that got a

13 beautification award from any

14 municipality that we could find. And we

15 are trying to look like an estate in an

16 industrial district with a railroad track

17 behind us. I think we have done quite

18 well. I should pat myself on the back, I

19 guess.

20 MEMBER SKELCY: I have no other

21 questions.



24 Member Ghannam.





1 MEMBER GHANNAM: I just have a

2 question. You mentioned something about

3 a rebuttable presumption that he's

4 entitled to under some ordinance section

5 that we don't have. What is that all

6 about?

7 MR. BOULARD: I believe the

8 reference is to there is some tips that

9 are listed in the packet that goes out

10 with the ZBA request, and it has some

11 tips for being prepared to respond to

12 questions and so forth. Nothing beyond

13 that in the ordinance.

14 MEMBER GHANNAM: I gotcha. One

15 other question for the city. If a

16 variance is granted, legitimately, they

17 can park vehicles out there without any

18 limitations, I presume, trucks with

19 signage, without any time limitations,

20 wouldn't it?

21 MS. KUDLA: You could put a

22 limitation on the time, if you want.

23 MEMBER GHANNAM: In terms of

24 hours or something?





1 MS. KUDLA: Yeah.

2 MEMBER GNANNAM: That's kind of

3 hard to do, like micromanaging, you know,

4 when they can do it and so forth. I

5 guess that's the difficulty I got. I

6 understand the need and the request and

7 so forth, and I appreciate the question

8 about why can't you do it when the

9 customer arrives, you know, pull out

10 their vehicles. I understand you don't

11 want the customers pulling them out.

12 But, I presume, as part of your

13 business, people can drop off vehicles at

14 any time?

15 MR. LAPHAM: That's true.

16 MEMBER GHANNAM: That's true,

17 okay.

18 MR. LAPHAM: We have had three

19 months to kind of reorganize ourselves,

20 because we weren't aware of this. And I

21 think we made some progress. We probably

22 left it out there sometimes longer than

23 they should. But now that -- we've paid

24 more attention to it. I don't know if





1 your ordinance lady has witnessed that,

2 because she hasn't given us a citation

3 since she knew that we were coming before

4 you.

5 She might -- I don't know if

6 she's given anybody any notice or not,

7 but we had shortened the time that those

8 trucks do sit out there.


10 opinion, how many vehicles do you think

11 you can park in the front yard setback

12 area?

13 MR. LAPHAM: We found out the

14 other day. Three. They all came in on a

15 Sunday. And, let me show you. Can

16 you --


18 the overhead.

19 MR. LAPHAM: Well, that's not

20 giving you any information, at least that

21 I can see.

22 What this is showing is that we

23 had two -- shall I -- that happened just

24 the other day. And, apparently, two





1 trucks came in when we weren't there.

2 They were able to park in our regular two

3 parking spaces. Now, when you see

4 that -- that must have been a customer

5 who came in, and the two parking spaces

6 were already full, and they parked out

7 there where we have parked for some time,

8 if we are just going to come in. And I

9 was taught years ago in retailing, that

10 you don't take the customer's parking

11 space. So where that little white car is

12 parked is where I normally come in, if

13 I'm just going in the office and coming

14 out.

15 Now, I would prefer not to be

16 compelled to mark that as a parking

17 space. I don't want people to think it's

18 a parking space, but, if it has to be, as

19 you saw in that particular picture, they

20 found accommodations. We served

21 everybody, and everybody was taken care

22 of.

23 MEMBER GHANNAM: If that white

24 vehicle didn't park in the space that you





1 have on that photograph, realistically,

2 you have two parking spaces, right?

3 MR. LAPHAM: Normally they

4 don't pull the truck in there. I was

5 surprised, because they were smaller

6 trucks, so got them in our parking spaces

7 inside the first gate.

8 MEMBER GHANNAM: I'm talking

9 about before you get inside your

10 property, on the outside, in the front

11 yard. You can only park two if that

12 white vehicle didn't park in the drive

13 area, or no?

14 MR. LAPHAM: We don't park

15 outside our gates. That car, let's say,

16 is in an illegal parking space. I hate

17 to use that word, but it has accommodated

18 our needs, and I prefer not to mark it as

19 a parking space.

20 See, our setbacks are generous.

21 I think we are 95 feet back from the edge

22 of the road, 92.

23 MEMBER GHANNAM: Would you have

24 a problem with a limitation of number of





1 vehicles as well as time limitations on

2 how long these vehicles can be parked

3 there?

4 MR. LAPHAM: I wouldn't, if I

5 can control it.


7 couldn't control it, what would you

8 recommend?

9 MR. LAPHAM: Oh, we have

10 already tried. We check them in as

11 quickly as we can.

12 MEMBER GHANNAM: I understand.

13 I'm saying, if we wanted to put a time

14 limitation and a number of vehicle

15 limitation on you, if that's an

16 alternative for the board to consider,

17 what would you recommend?

18 MR. LAPHAM: If we were open,

19 we should be able to do it, half an hour.

20 If we are not open, I can't put a time on

21 it.

22 MEMBER GHANNAM: That's part

23 of -- one of my issues. I know people

24 park in the evenings, and you can't get





1 it until the morning.

2 MR. LAPHAM: But they are not

3 interfering with commerce or visibility

4 because of our deep setback there.

5 MEMBER GHANNAM: Okay. I don't

6 have any other questions.


8 Boulard, you want to add something?

9 MR. BOULARD: I just want to

10 mention, it's very important to consider

11 the driveway, depending on the distances,

12 between 35 and 30 feet wide. And I would

13 certainly be concerned if any more

14 than -- well, I would like to have the

15 whole driveway open, but I would

16 certainly be concerned if there was any

17 more than one vehicle parked in that

18 driveway in terms of limiting access.


20 Mr. Cassis.

21 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,

22 Mr. Chairman.

23 You know, it seems like we have

24 tried to micromanage this guy's business.





1 I think the issue before us is this truck

2 has a sign on it. We have had people

3 issued citations and take them to court

4 for doing something like this, parking

5 trucks with their insignia on it. And

6 you can go to the court and check out

7 hundreds of them where people have been

8 cited. This is the central issue here,

9 so we must treat it this way.

10 Now, if his business, if his

11 type of business cannot manage to keep

12 these trucks in the back, that's his

13 problem. That's your problem. If you

14 need to put more people there, that's

15 your problem. If you need to develop

16 some sort of relationship between

17 yourself and those renters that come in

18 and rent the truck, and give them some

19 sort of instruction. "Look, don't park

20 in front." Or do some signs, in your

21 property, to have them park in the back

22 instead of in the front.

23 I'm sure there are ways to

24 manage a business of instructing people





1 to do certain things in a business. Now,

2 I cannot tell you how to do it. But,

3 does he have enough property in the back

4 to take care of trucks, parking trucks

5 and so on? Mr. Boulard.

6 MR. BOULARD: I think the

7 challenge without -- I mean, certainly,

8 it's a fairly large parcel. I think the

9 challenge, if I may, you know, not to put

10 words in your mouth, so to speak. The

11 buildings and the existing structures are

12 fairly close -- they are fairly crowded

13 towards the front. There is not a lot of

14 room there, in terms of getting security

15 there. Certainly, there is enough room

16 on the site to park the trucks, but I

17 think the issue is really access.

18 MR. LAPHAM: If I understand

19 the gentleman's question properly, we

20 want to get them behind the gate as soon

21 as we can. But we can't tell people

22 where to park if there is only three

23 places to park before you go through the

24 gate. So, I always like to try the





1 impossible, but that's going to be real

2 difficult to tell. We don't know the

3 trucks are coming in. They can send us a

4 stray truck and tell them to drop it off

5 at Estate Storage. And we'll do the best

6 we can, I assure you, to get it behind

7 the gate, because we don't want it out

8 there anyway.

9 MEMBER CASSIS: Can I ask you,

10 how many trucks do you have at your

11 business?

12 MR. LAPHAM: You never know.

13 Sometimes we are out of inventory. Right

14 now, I would say ten percent of our

15 rentals are out of the state.

16 MEMBER CASSIS: No, how many

17 trucks do come in and go out in a day or

18 in a week?

19 MR. LAPHAM: You might not have

20 one -- one truck some days, some days --

21 I think what you are trying to get at is

22 what is our inventory?


24 MR. LAPHAM: Okay. We never





1 know. They will send us trucks, or they

2 will call and take one of our trucks for

3 another dealer, and a dealer will pick it

4 up.

5 MEMBER CASSIS: We know that.

6 MR. LAPHAM: Our inventory --

7 MEMBER CASSIS: Sir, what I'm

8 trying to get at is your property large

9 enough to handle it in a way that these

10 trucks -- you just told us there were

11 three trucks at one time.

12 MR. LAPHAM: That doesn't

13 happen that often.


15 property -- Mr. Chairman, if the property

16 is not adequate enough to handle all that

17 traffic and avoid the technicality of

18 what we are looking at here, that there

19 is a sign put on a truck and parked in

20 the front, which is not allowed under our

21 ordinance. Now, either he has to limit

22 the amount of trucks that come or tell

23 them how to -- instruct them to go to the

24 back and not park in the front.





1 And this is what I am trying to

2 say. I will not approve this. Thank

3 you.


5 Member Cassis.

6 Member Krieger?

7 MEMBER KRIEGER: I understand

8 both the -- I think listening to

9 everybody, the petitioner and Member

10 Cassis, and I'm in agreement, it is the

11 business -- you want to be in the

12 business to have a U-Haul truck. And

13 putting all those trucks out in front

14 also creates a safety hazard, whether you

15 have a fire truck that needed to come in.

16 Having keys locked in a truck is a safety

17 hazard, I suppose. If somebody wanted to

18 steal a truck, that's a whole other

19 story.

20 But you have a sign on a truck,

21 U-Haul, it's advertising. And then

22 Estate Storage is your primary business.

23 So there's got to be some other way that

24 you do your business, as Member Cassis is





1 saying, that if the availability -- if

2 somebody were to take care of that truck

3 right off the bat. If it's on a weekend

4 and nobody can take care of it until you

5 are open, there's got to be some other

6 way you can take care of business your

7 way, to handle that.

8 But, I'm in agreement. I can't

9 support having trucks parked out front.

10 MR. LAPHAM: Is that a fact?

11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.


13 Member Sanghvi?

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, I think

15 we need to clarify one thing here. You

16 are only Estate Storage business; you are

17 not in truck rental business.

18 MR. LAPHAM: I accompany that.

19 That is part of the business; I am in the

20 storage business.


22 MR. LAPHAM: And it says right

23 here in the rebuttal.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: I know you are





1 in storage business. You have been

2 around there since early nineties; there

3 has been storage there since early

4 nineties. And I used to have two small

5 (unintelligible) many years ago, so I

6 know what goes on there.

7 (Unintelligible) but that is temporary,

8 to get registration and talk to your

9 manager and go inside. It's not designed

10 for parking for any length of time,

11 especially if you have a truck there in

12 front of your office.

13 MR. LAPHAM: I have three

14 parking spaces.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, but

16 those parking spaces are not for leaving

17 vehicles and going away. It is there

18 waiting to go inside or coming out -- to

19 come out and talk with your manager or

20 whoever is in charge at the time.

21 Are you in the truck rental

22 business, also?

23 MR. LAPHAM: Oh, yes, I am. I

24 have been for some time.





1 MEMBER SANGHVI: You see, all

2 (unintelligible) your business is Estate

3 Storage. How long --

4 MR. LAPHAM: It's commensurate

5 with ours, because we get customers that

6 come in, and they need trucking, or we

7 gain customers by being able to

8 accommodate the trucks that come in and

9 deposit their goods in our --

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: I understand

11 that. The issue here is your what is

12 your business? What is it, the storage

13 business where people come and go and put

14 their stuff and go away, or other is

15 truck rental, which you park there for

16 people to use as they need it. Is that

17 what you are trying to say?

18 MR. LAPHAM: We store the

19 trucks back there for their convenience.

20 This is part of our business. If you are

21 in the storage business, you have to get

22 the equipment, their goods, in and out.

23 And it helps us tremendously in these

24 times right now. This helps us pay our





1 taxes.

2 MEMBER SANGHVI: If you are in

3 truck rental business, you got to find

4 space to park your trucks. The front is

5 not the place for it.

6 MR. LAPHAM: We have plenty of

7 space once we can get them inside. But

8 cut us some slack, to get them inside.

9 We are going to try and do it as quickly

10 as we can. I don't think we should be

11 punished because the person has a sign on

12 the side of his truck, for one thing.

13 And give us -- we have room to

14 get that truck parked there. A fire

15 engine doesn't have any trouble getting

16 through that wide driveway, because cars

17 with that truck, it was parked there, two

18 cars can still pass. And we made this

19 wide enough, because we are one of the

20 few that can take moving vans and get

21 them right down the aisle and turn them

22 around. And, so, we have accommodated

23 for larger vehicles.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.






2 Member Sanghvi. Any other?



5 Member Gedeon.

6 MEMBER GEDEON: I know you made

7 a big deal about the fence and security

8 is very important to your business of

9 storage. But, I mean, I just can't help

10 but think the fence is, you know, might

11 provide some security for vehicles coming

12 in and out; it doesn't really provide any

13 true protection, because it seems to be

14 only a five-foot high fence or so. So

15 claiming that you can't let trucks go

16 behind the fence for security reasons,

17 doesn't seem all that legitimate, given

18 it's not a very protective fence in the

19 first place.


21 else? Okay. Seeing all the board

22 members have had the opportunity to

23 speak, I will entertain a motion.

24 Member Cassis.





1 MEMBER CASSIS: I don't know if

2 the board will go along with it, but I'm

3 going to make a motion to deny under case

4 No. 10-010, 21650 south of Nine Mile

5 Road, east of Novi Road, to deny this,

6 because it is against our ordinance. It

7 actually puts another sign or two signs

8 or three signs on those trucks, in

9 addition to existing sign, which is

10 against our ordinance.

11 And I think the standards set

12 in the ordinance have reason for it.

13 And, in fact, some of the problems that

14 are created with this kind of arrangement

15 where the trucks are being parked in the

16 front will cause certain problems with

17 fire trucks or safety and so on.

18 So, in the spirit of the zoning

19 ordinance, I think I would reject this

20 petition.



23 second. We have a motion to deny by

24 Member Cassis and second by Member





1 Sanghvi.

2 MS. KUDLA: I just suggest an

3 amendment to add to that motion the need

4 for the variance is self-created because

5 petitioner could manage business to pull

6 trucks back right away or direct

7 customers how to. Can we add that to the

8 motion?


10 appreciation, thank you.

11 MS. KUDLA: Okay.


13 the motion. Any other further

14 discussion?

15 Ms. Martin, please take the

16 roll.

17 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


19 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


21 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


23 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?






1 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


3 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


5 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



8 Motion fails, seven-zero.

9 MR. LAPHAM: Does this mean

10 you've denied me part of my business? I

11 can't have trucks there? I don't know

12 where to go from here, because I'm guilty

13 of a man putting a sign on his truck.


15 have to talk to the building department.

16 Mr. Boulard will be able to guide you.

17 MR. LAPHAM: Can you take away

18 my business like that? I mean, how --


20 have to talk to Mr. Boulard; he will be

21 glad to explain it to you. No one is

22 denying you your business; you just can't

23 park the trucks there.

24 MR. LAPHAM: I may have a truck





1 come in tomorrow, am I going to have to

2 go to court again?


4 contact with the city in regards to it.

5 Next on the agenda, Case No.

6 ZBA10-011. 27475 Huron Circle,

7 Waltonwood. G. Michael Kahm of Singh

8 Development, LLC, representing Waltonwood

9 at Twelve Oaks is requesting renewal of

10 variance to allow continued placement of

11 a 41-square foot temporary leasing sign,

12 11 feet in height, located at 27475 Huron

13 Circle, Waltonwood.

14 The property is zoned RM-1 and

15 is located south of Twelve Mile Road east

16 of Novi Road.

17 Please state your name and

18 address, and if you are not an attorney,

19 please be sworn in by the secretary.

20 MS. REAM: Jennifer Ream, 24415

21 Bashian Drive, Novi.

22 MEMBER IBE: Ma'am, in Case

23 10-011, 27475 Huron Circle, Waltonwood,

24 do you affirm to tell the truth in this





1 case?

2 MS. REAM: I do.

3 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


5 proceed.

6 MS. REAM: Thank you. As you

7 can see, I'm not Mike Kahm, a little

8 shorter and female. But, Mike got called

9 away on business, and I think he was

10 afraid to come see you guys all again, to

11 be honest.

12 MEMBER CASSIS: But better

13 looking.

14 MS. REAM: Thank you. I will

15 let him know, trust me.

16 Yes, I'm here to ask for an

17 extension for another year for our

18 leasing sign that runs along the finger

19 road as the entrance into Twelve Oaks

20 Mall. It's the same song and dance,

21 economic times are not what they were,

22 and I need help. I need all the help I

23 can get.

24 I'm not going to beg and plead,





1 I will just let you guys ask me

2 questions.


4 Is there anyone in the audience who

5 wishes to address the board regarding

6 this case? Seeing none, will the

7 secretary read any correspondence into

8 the record.

9 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, in this

10 particular case, 14 notices were mailed,

11 zero responses, zero mail returned.


13 Does the building department or city

14 attorney wish to add anything at this

15 time?

16 MS. KUDLA: We do not.


18 isn't here.

19 MS. KUDLA: He temporarily

20 stepped out.


22 this time, I will refer the matter to the

23 board for discussion.

24 Mr. Gedeon.





1 MEMBER GEDEON: All right. I'm

2 going to ask you the same question I

3 asked earlier, the leasing sign. And in

4 here, in this case, you have had quite a

5 few extensions in the past. I'm just

6 going to ask the obvious. Is it possible

7 the sign is just not effective and not

8 necessary?

9 MS. REAM: The sign is actually

10 very effective, because it is the only

11 way that you know what that building is.

12 As you come along that finger road, it

13 clearly defines what we are, what our

14 business is. If it was gone and you came

15 in through that entrance, all you would

16 see is this grand building and not know

17 what it is. It definitely defines us as

18 who we are, and shows what it is that we

19 have to offer.

20 MEMBER GEDEON: How good would

21 business have to be for you to take down

22 the sign?

23 MS. REAM: I'd like to be in

24 the 80 percent occupied, and we are just





1 not.

2 MEMBER GEDEON: Have you ever

3 been?

4 MS. REAM: Not in the years

5 that I have been with the company. And I

6 have been with the company for four

7 years, so my time, we have not.

8 MEMBER GEDEON: Thank you.


10 else?

11 Member Cassis.

12 MEMBER CASSIS: Is it song or

13 is it dance?

14 MS. REAM: You tell me.

15 MEMBER CASSIS: I don't think

16 I'm going to require you to dance too

17 much.

18 MS. REAM: You don't want to

19 hear me sing, either.

20 MEMBER CASSIS: Now, you know,

21 it's a necessary sign, I believe,

22 Mr. Chairman. Thank you for

23 acknowledging me. It's been there, I

24 know we have talked about this before,





1 that it's been there for a while.

2 But, economic times as it is,

3 and truly, this kind of sign identifies

4 really what this project is all about,

5 which is independent assisted living.

6 And to really identify that and put it to

7 the public that are driving by, is

8 necessary to try to get business in

9 there.

10 So, I really don't see any

11 other way for the petitioner here to do

12 it, for us to really deny them and have

13 them put different sign would be costly,

14 would really not serve the petitioner or

15 the city or anyone any good. Or even

16 those people that are seeking -- I'm

17 getting to that age.

18 MS. REAM: Come see me.


20 Mr. Chairman, I go along with this.

21 Thank you.


23 Member Cassis.

24 Member Skelcy?





1 MEMBER SKELCY: At some point

2 do you plan on having just a plain old

3 monument sign that delineates your

4 facility, rather than the leasing signs?

5 MS. REAM: Yes. We have a

6 monument sign now, but it does not

7 clearly define what Waltonwood is. We

8 have submitted to the development board,

9 actually, Mike did, a plan to change that

10 sign out and go with a sign that clearly

11 defines what our building is.

12 MEMBER SKELCY: So it would be

13 like a McDonald's sign, for instance,

14 like, "Here's our business"?

15 MS. REAM: Yes. It would be

16 Waltonwood, and it would say what it is

17 that we do. And right now, that isn't

18 what the case is. Right now we are

19 relying on our leasing sign to say what

20 it is that we are. Our monument sign

21 just says what our name is. So, if you

22 don't know what a Waltonwood is, you just

23 think it's an apartment complex or

24 building of some sort; you have no





1 idea.

2 MEMBER SKELCY: What you are

3 saying is that you are looking to change

4 the signs?

5 MS. REAM: Yes.

6 MEMBER SKELCY: And then what

7 is your occupancy rate right now?

8 MS. REAM: In our independent

9 building, it's about 79, and in our

10 assisted building, it's about 77.

11 MEMBER SKELCY: So you are very

12 close to the 80 percent.

13 MS. REAM: Close, but -- and

14 it's senior living. So as close as you

15 think you might be, seniors seem to leave

16 us, they pass on, and here we are again

17 with trying to fill back up.

18 MEMBER SKELCY: What is typical

19 for this business, in general, like the

20 occupancy rates across the board?

21 MS. BUTTON: You know,

22 honestly, in economic times when things

23 are good and people have money and it's

24 not an issue, you don't have children who





1 have lost their jobs, now mom and dad

2 live with them because they can no longer

3 afford, because they don't have jobs. Or

4 mom and dad have lost their money, now

5 they are moving in with their children.

6 You know, our occupancies could

7 well be into the eighties and nineties,

8 but in these times and in the State of

9 Michigan, the harsh reality is, it's just

10 not there. Everyone hovers right into

11 the seventies, mid seventies.

12 MEMBER SKELCY: Thank you.


14 Krieger.

15 MEMBER KRIEGER: How much time

16 do you anticipate to go from to get this

17 other ground sign?

18 MS. REAM: If we could get a

19 year extension on our leasing sign, I

20 would like to see our monument sign

21 changed out sometime this year, while the

22 weather is good and stuff before the

23 winter comes.

24 MEMBER KRIEGER: I would be --





1 I would go for the variance if it was

2 until the end of this year. If not, we

3 have granted so many variances, it's

4 become a second ground sign. Thank you.


6 Member Ibe, go ahead.

7 MEMBER IBE: Ma'am, good

8 evening.

9 MS. REAM: Hi.

10 MEMBER IBE: You know, I'm not

11 so sure if it was last year that this

12 came before us. And, if I recall, I did

13 tell the gentleman who is here the last

14 time that I'm not very pleased with what

15 you have. I pretty much told him this is

16 a permanent sign. I mean, you can

17 masquerade it any how you like, package

18 it any how you like. I don't care what

19 you call it, it is a permanent sign. So,

20 let's take it for what it is.

21 I'm not going to be inclined to

22 go for one year. I will be inclined to

23 the end of this year. Because, you have

24 had 11 years to correct this problem.





1 And I told the gentleman, I mean, someone

2 who is in business, you should know your

3 business better than anyone else. You

4 never going to have a situation where you

5 have senior citizens who, obviously, are

6 moving in and out, due to some natural

7 events.

8 MS. REAM: Right.

9 MEMBER IBE: And expect to have

10 80 percent occupancy. I mean, come on,

11 who are you kidding? It's either you

12 don't know how to run this business, or

13 you just think the folks in the City of

14 Novi just don't know what you are doing.

15 This is a permanent sign.

16 I will not support one year; I

17 will support until December 31st, 2010.

18 Thank you, Mr. Chair.


20 Anyone else? I'd like to add a

21 couple comments. I, too, agree with

22 Member Ibe. Last year I told Mr. Kahm, I

23 suggested that he look at a permanent

24 sign, getting information on it. He's





1 had a year to do it. Obviously, the

2 wheels are moving very slowly. I know

3 the economic situation is bad. But given

4 the type of facility, this isn't a condo

5 facility, it's a rental facility, so you

6 are always going to be having vacancies.

7 A permanent sign is the answer.

8 I could go on 'till the end of year to

9 allow the sign to remain, but at that

10 time I think for me, that would be the

11 very end. You better have a permanent

12 sign in there. Because this is -- it's

13 almost a permanent sign now, as was

14 mentioned earlier. It's been going on

15 for so long. Some businesses move slow,

16 but 11 years, that's beyond slow; that's

17 beyond government slow.

18 Okay. That's all I have.

19 Anybody else wish to make a comment?

20 Okay, then I will entertain a motion.

21 MEMBER CASSIS: Not a motion,

22 Mr. Chair. We are struggling with three

23 months here from December. What's that

24 song, from November to December?





1 MEMBER SANGHVI: May I suggest

2 a compromise? Or the permanent sign,

3 whichever is earlier.

4 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah, maybe

5 they do it before. One year or earlier.


7 be up to the motion-maker.

8 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, you

9 are the chairman; I respect that.


11 makes the motion, we'll deal with it when

12 they make the motion.

13 MEMBER CASSIS: Whoever makes

14 the motion, let's do it. I'm not going

15 to do the motion. You want to dance?


17 Ibe.

18 MEMBER IBE: Just real quickly,

19 ma'am. If we were to agree to what you

20 are asking for, on the condition that you

21 also agree not to come back here seeking

22 renewal of this sign; will that be

23 agreeable to you?

24 MS. REAM: Yes.





1 MEMBER IBE: If you are not

2 going to agree to it, remember that, do

3 not come back here next year and say,

4 "You know, I wasn't the person in charge;

5 somebody else was supposed to be here."

6 Because I have heard this song before.

7 MS. REAM: Okay.

8 MEMBER IBE: It's become

9 something that I just don't want to

10 listen to anymore. We want some

11 assurance from you that your organization

12 will not come back seeking an extension

13 of this sign.

14 MS. REAM: Okay.

15 MEMBER IBE: Is that agreeable

16 with you?

17 MS. REAM: That is fine.

18 MEMBER IBE: If that's the

19 case, Mr. Chair.


21 attorney, can we make a stipulation?

22 MS. KUDLA: If you want to do

23 it by way of time limitation, you can do

24 it that way. Not that they can't come





1 back, they could always come back even

2 if --

3 MEMBER CASSIS: But you can

4 reject.

5 MS. KUDLA: Right, exactly.

6 They can't -- if you denied it, and they

7 tried to come back next week for the same

8 request with no change of circumstances,

9 that's a different story. But, if you --

10 they can come back for a different

11 reason, change of circumstances, they

12 always have the right to. So time

13 limitation, if you feel that you are

14 looking for it to be a permanent monument

15 sign for a reasonable amount of time for

16 them, just to get to that point would

17 probably be the best way in this case.


19 Member Ibe.

20 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, in Case

21 10-011, 27475 Huron Circle, Waltonwood, I

22 move that we approve the request made by

23 the petitioner, for a one-year extension.

24 And in the course of one year, petitioner





1 will use good faith and best effort to

2 have a permanent monument sign that will

3 replace the existing temporary sign.

4 And the basis for the renewal,

5 of course, is based upon circumstances of

6 features that are exceptional and unique

7 to the property, and will also give it to

8 the petitioner that in light of the

9 economic situation, that they might need

10 additional time to get the occupancy that

11 is required.

12 And, also, the failure to grant

13 will prevent or limit the use of the

14 property and will result in substantially

15 more than mere inconvenience or inability

16 to attain a high economic or financial

17 return. And that the grant will not

18 result in a use of the structure that's

19 incompatible with or unreasonably

20 interferes with adjacent or surrounding

21 properties. And will result in

22 substantial justice being done to the

23 applicants as well as the surrounding

24 properties. And, also, this will be





1 consistent with the spirit of the

2 ordinances.


4 MEMBER GEDEON: Before a second

5 on that, I just want one point of

6 clarification. By way of that motion,

7 are you intending to grant a variance for

8 a permanent sign, as well?


10 MEMBER GEDEON: Just wanted to

11 clarify that.

12 MEMBER IBE: It's simply --

13 it's simply based on the fact that the

14 statements of this applicant, that they

15 intend to have a permanent sign, and that

16 will be accomplished within the time

17 frame that is afforded to them in the

18 extension.

19 Is that correct, ma'am?

20 MS. REAM: Correct.


22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Question. You

23 said a year. Did you mean by -- until

24 the end of this year? And then I will





1 second the motion.

2 MEMBER IBE: I was simply

3 asking for 12 months, is that correct?

4 MS. REAM: Correct.

5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. Second.


7 motion made by Member Ibe, and a second

8 by Member Krieger. Any other further

9 discussion?

10 Ms. Martin, please call the

11 roll.

12 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


14 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


16 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


18 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?


20 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


22 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


24 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?







3 Motion passes, seven-zero.

4 MS. REAM: Thanks. I hope I

5 don't see you guys out on the street.


7 item on the agenda, ZBA10-012 for 22960

8 Venture Drive. SunGlo Services is

9 requesting a variance to locate an

10 accessory structure in the interior side

11 yard of the property located at 22960

12 Venture Drive.

13 The property is zoned I-1 and

14 located north of Nine Mile Road between

15 Novi and Meadowbrook Roads.

16 Please state your name and

17 address for the record. And if you are

18 not an attorney, please be sworn in by

19 the secretary.

20 MR. SPIRE: My name is Rob

21 Spire. I live at 43590 Nine Mile in

22 Novi, Michigan.

23 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in Case No.

24 10-012, 22960 Venture Drive, SunGlo





1 Services, sir, do you swear or affirm to

2 tell the truth?

3 MR. SPIRE: I do.

4 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


6 please.

7 MR. SPIRE: I'm asking for a

8 variance. SunGlo is a restoration

9 company, and what that means, if somebody

10 has a flood or fire, we take care of the

11 damage, and then we do the restoration

12 after that. So we are truly a 24/7

13 company.

14 And, as a result of that, on

15 Venture Drive we have a lot of problems

16 with power. The power goes out on a

17 pretty frequent basis, and we prosper

18 when others have catastrophes. So, it's

19 important for us to keep our phones going

20 and have our building -- have power at

21 our building all the time. So we decided

22 to have a full building generator put in.

23 We filed a permit with the

24 electrical service and found out after





1 the fact that we were supposed to have a

2 planning approval for that.

3 Where we located the generator

4 was next to our building on the south

5 side in proximity to a transformer that's

6 a DTE transformer and surrounded by

7 arborvitaes and some other plants. It's

8 in proximity to the electrical panel.

9 The back of the building where it's

10 supposed to be, we have a berm back

11 there, and we have air conditioners back

12 there. And running power through the

13 building didn't make sense, so we hid it

14 next to the transformer. It's shaded by

15 trees and bushes and that type of thing,

16 and I'm asking for a variance to allow us

17 to keep it there. And that's it,

18 basically.


20 thank you. Is there anyone in the

21 audience who wishes to address the board

22 regarding this case? Seeing none, will

23 the secretary read any correspondence

24 regarding this case into the record.





1 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, there

2 were 29 notices mailed, zero responses

3 and three mail returns.


5 Does the building department or city

6 attorney wish to make any comments at

7 this time?

8 MS. KUDLA: We do not.

9 MR. BOULARD: Couple comments.

10 In speaking with the folks from the

11 planning department, as was referenced in

12 the comments that they provided, they are

13 in favor of this as the -- as the

14 transformer, while not in the rear

15 setback, what would normally be required,

16 as far as possible from the neighboring

17 residential property.

18 The one suggestion was that any

19 variance be considered or contingent upon

20 the petitioner providing evidence that

21 the sound level of the generator at the

22 property line will not exceed the city

23 requirements.

24 So there are some requirements.





1 There was a question this afternoon. We

2 are looking over the information of how

3 loud that would be at the property line.

4 Looks like it should be fine. But,

5 obviously, we didn't have the information

6 to do the calculations for that.

7 That's the only comment. Thank

8 you.


10 At this time, I will refer this matter to

11 the board for discussion.

12 Ms. Skelcy, thank you.

13 MEMBER SKELCY: I have a

14 question for the city. If we grant the

15 variance, I mean, is it guaranteed that

16 the noise thing can be managed

17 effectively, the noise requirements?

18 MR. BOULARD: I believe so. If

19 there is an issue, a lot of times there

20 is kits that can be fitted to the

21 equipment to make it quieter, or

22 certainly ways to buffer that noise. I'm

23 confident it can be dealt with.

24 MEMBER SKELCY: Thank you. Is





1 the generator already installed?

2 MR. SPIRE: Yes.

3 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. Thank

4 you.


6 Mr. Cassis.

7 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,

8 Mr. Chairman.

9 You know, it seems to me it's

10 really more practical and economical for

11 the petitioner, seems to me, to place

12 that generator in front, so that he

13 doesn't go through the expense of

14 bringing in power from -- I don't know

15 how far it would be, probably very far.

16 MR. SPIRE: Very far. The

17 electrical system is at the opposite end

18 of the building.


20 questions to Mr. Boulard. Will there be

21 enough screening around that generator so

22 that it will not look, you know, bad, or

23 probably also diminish the noise that

24 will come from the generator?





1 MR. BOULARD: I'm not sure how

2 much vegetation that's been installed.

3 You have seen some of that in the

4 pictures that were provided. I'm not

5 sure how much that's going to eliminate

6 the noise. I think that the screening is

7 kept healthy, and that vegetation is

8 maintained, it will hide that generator

9 fairly quickly.

10 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, from

11 the kind of application that is here and

12 sketch that we were given, there isn't

13 really that much details about the

14 screening. I would want that there would

15 be some evergreen, arborvitaes, or

16 whatever.

17 MR. SPIRE: It's surrounded by

18 arborvitaes mostly. I have given some

19 pictures that show --

20 MEMBER CASSIS: I don't know

21 why I didn't get pictures. Oh, that's my

22 set, my apology. Yes, it looks -- that's

23 all I wanted to ask Mr. Boulard for.

24 MR. SPIRE: Could I just add





1 one comment regarding to what you said.

2 The generator is muffled, and it's -- I

3 mean, it's my word here saying this. But

4 it's a very quiet generator. It's on an

5 exercise cycle once a week. And

6 sometimes we have trouble hearing it even

7 when we have the doors open. To find

8 out, I have to go out and make sure that

9 it's exercising on a regular basis,

10 because you want a generator for the

11 purposes we have to make sure it's

12 working all the time. So, it's a very

13 quiet generator. I'm not sure from the

14 property line that -- you could probably

15 know it's running, but it's not a loud

16 diesel generator that's making a great

17 deal of noise.

18 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman,

19 now that I've looked at the pictures, I

20 can see there are some nice green trees

21 around it, and it looks like it's been

22 screened, and I have no objections for

23 that application, so I would go along

24 with it. Thank you, Mr. Chair.






2 Member Cassis.

3 Member Sanghvi.

4 MEMBER SANGHVI: I have been to

5 your site. They have done a good job of

6 screening this, and I have no problem

7 with the variance.

8 MR. SPIRE: Thank you.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: You have done

10 a great job.


12 else? I will just make a couple

13 comments. I have no issues with this.

14 I'm familiar with the size of this

15 generator; noise is not a concern. You

16 have done a good job screening it, and I

17 will approve it.

18 MR. SPIRE: Thank you.


20 said, we are looking for a motion.

21 Member Krieger.


23 10-012, 22960 Venture Drive, for SunGlo

24 Services, I move to approve their request





1 for the variance to locate an accessory

2 structure in the interior side yard of

3 the property located at said address.

4 And the property is zoned I-1.

5 The variance -- the practical

6 difficulty the petitioner has made, that

7 the setback, frontage, height, bulk and

8 density requirements unreasonably prevent

9 the use of his property for its permitted

10 use.

11 The variance will provide

12 substantial justice to the petitioner and

13 surrounding property owners in the

14 district. And the problem is not

15 self-created. Adequate light and air

16 will be provided as well as the trees

17 that the petitioner has shown us with his

18 pictures. And it will not diminish the

19 surrounding area, and is in the spirit of

20 the zoning ordinance.



23 motion made by Member Krieger and a

24 second by Member Sanghvi. Is there any





1 further discussion on this matter?

2 Ms. Martin, please call the

3 roll.

4 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


6 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


8 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


10 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?


12 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


14 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


16 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



19 Motion passes, seven-zero.

20 MR. SPIRE: Thank you. Can I

21 just ask one last question? Am I

22 supposed to do something now with the

23 planning commission? Do I have to come

24 back and sign or do something, or am I





1 done?

2 MR. BOULARD: I guess I would

3 suggest contacting the planner tomorrow

4 morning.

5 MR. SPIRE: Kristen?

6 MR. BOULARD: Yeah, Kristen,

7 and let her know what happened and follow

8 up from there.

9 MR. SPIRE: Thank you. Thank

10 you very much everyone. Appreciate it.


12 Case No. ZBA10-013, 25928 Sierra Drive.

13 Petitioner is requesting a

14 variance to allow construction of a

15 single-story addition and deck to the

16 existing home located at 25928 Sierra

17 Drive. Property is zoned R-A, and is

18 located south of Eleven Mile Road and

19 east of Beck Road.

20 Please state your names and

21 addresses for the record. And if you are

22 not attorneys, please be sworn in by our

23 secretary.

24 MS. SPIRE: Dana





1 (unintelligible) Bates. 25928 Sierra

2 Drive; that's in Novi.

3 MR. SPIRE: Keith Bates, same

4 address, 25928 Sierra Drive.

5 MEMBER IBE: In Case 10-013,

6 25928 Sierra Drive, do you swear or

7 affirm to tell the truth?

8 MS. BATES: Yes.

9 MR. BATES: Yes.


11 may proceed.

12 MS. BATES: We would just like

13 to take this opportunity to provide a

14 brief overview of the variance we are

15 requesting and the reasons we felt it

16 should be approved.

17 We are requesting a rear yard

18 setback variance of 17 feet for a

19 single-story family room addition and

20 associated variance for a deck.

21 We are zoned residential

22 acreage, but we are in a subdivision,

23 with subdivision-sized lots. Our

24 property does not currently conform to





1 the residential acreage standards for lot

2 size square footage, lot width or some of

3 the setback requirements. This results

4 in our current house filling or exceeding

5 the area allowed by the setbacks defined

6 for this current zoning.

7 The 33-foot rear yard setback

8 that would result from the granted

9 variance would be more aligned with our

10 property dimensions and our setbacks.

11 The uniqueness of the zoning of the

12 property prevents any expansion of the

13 house that would help increase its

14 usability.

15 Granting of these variances

16 would allow us to update our home. With

17 this addition, we plan to open the family

18 room area into our current kitchen to

19 create a continuous and flowing space

20 that is similar to more modern homes. As

21 well as the modernization, the addition

22 also provides us with increased living

23 space that we feel would be a major

24 improvement to the home. These





1 modifications would better accommodate

2 our future needs while allowing us to

3 remain in the community which we enjoy.

4 The granting of the variances

5 for the additions to our home should have

6 minimal impact to our neighbors. The

7 addition will extend directly rearward

8 only and will maintain the same distances

9 to our neighbors on either side.

10 We do not have a residence

11 directly behind us that would be affected

12 by the change in the rear yard setback;

13 we back up to a wooded area.

14 On the single-story addition

15 that we are proposing do not impede the

16 adequate light or air to the adjacent

17 properties. We have also notified and

18 discussed the plans with our neighbors,

19 and they have not raised any concerns to

20 us. Our homeowners association has

21 reviewed and approved our plan.

22 Granting these variances will

23 not alter the essential character of the

24 area, as our modified home will be





1 comparable to others in our subdivision.

2 At least seven other dimensional or

3 property variances have been granted in

4 our subdivision in the last ten years.

5 We feel this addition would be

6 advantageous to the neighborhood and a

7 good investment in the Novi community.

8 We would like to thank the

9 board for your time regarding this

10 matter. We feel that granting this

11 variance would allow us to improve our

12 home and invest in our community with

13 minimal negative impacts.

14 We would be glad to answer any

15 other additional questions.


17 Is there anyone in the audience who

18 wishes to address the board regarding

19 this case? Seeing none, will the

20 secretary read any correspondence into

21 the record.

22 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, there

23 were 36 notices mailed, zero responses,

24 zero mail returns.






2 Does the building department or city

3 attorney wish to make any comments at

4 this time?

5 MS. KUDLA: No.

6 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.


8 That being so, at this time we'll refer

9 this matter to the board for discussion.

10 Member Sanghvi.

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

12 What's immediately behind your back yard?

13 MR. BATES: We have about a

14 hundred feet of wooded area around the

15 edge of our subdivision. So there is

16 about a hundred feet of woods, a pond

17 back there before it goes into the next

18 sub down the street.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just wanted

20 to bring this out, because it's

21 important. You are not going to impact

22 anybody on the back side of your

23 property?

24 MR. BATES: Correct.





1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. I

2 have no difficulty supporting their

3 variance. Thank you.


5 Member Sanghvi.

6 MS. BATES: I was going to say,

7 in addition to that, we did review the

8 woodlands and wetlands map with the

9 building inspector, and we are not in

10 either of those. We back up to, but we

11 are not in either of those areas.


13 Ghannam.

14 MEMBER GHANNAM: I, too, agree.

15 This does look like a nice job you have

16 done, very nice planning. I don't see

17 any problem granting this, also. Thank

18 you.


20 Anyone else? I have no issue with this,

21 also. Then at this time, and I'm looking

22 for somebody to make a motion.

23 Member Ghannam.

24 MEMBER GHANNAM: Thank you,





1 Mr. Chair. In Case No. 10-013, 25928

2 Sierra Drive, I move that we approve both

3 variances as requested. I believe that

4 the setback frontage, height, bulk,

5 density requirements unreasonably prevent

6 the use of the property for a permitted

7 purpose.

8 The variance will provide

9 substantial justice to the petitioner and

10 surrounding property owners in the zoning

11 district.

12 There are unique circumstances

13 to the property; the problem is not

14 self-created. There is certainly

15 adequate light and air provided to the

16 adjacent properties, does not increase

17 fire danger or public safety. The

18 property values will not be diminished

19 within the surrounding area, and the

20 spirit of the zoning ordinance is

21 observed.



24 motion made by Member Ghannam and second





1 by Member Sanghvi. Is there any further

2 discussion?

3 Ms. Martin, please call the

4 roll.

5 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


7 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


9 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


11 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?


13 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


15 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


17 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



20 Motion passes, seven-zero.

21 MS. BATES: Thank you very

22 much.


24 case is ZBA10-014, 41370 Bridge Street.





1 Petitioner is requesting a

2 variance to install additional real

3 estate leasing sign of 24 square feet,

4 adjacent to I-96, for 41370 Bridge

5 Street.

6 Property is zoned I-1 and is

7 located east of Meadowbrook Road and

8 south of I-96.

9 Please state your name and

10 address for the record. And if you are

11 not an attorney, please be sworn in by

12 our secretary.

13 MR. HARRIGAN: My name is Jim

14 Harrigan, and I'm not an attorney.

15 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in

16 Case No. 10-014, 41370 Bridge Street, do

17 you swear or affirm to tell the truth?

18 MR. HARRIGAN: Yes. Thank you.

19 My name is Jim Harrigan. I'm with Lee &

20 Associates, a commercial real estate

21 broker handling the leasing and sale of

22 the subject building, and here requesting

23 a variance on the sign ordinance to allow

24 a larger sign.





1 Reason being is that it's on --

2 where the sign will be located is on

3 I-96, where I-96 goes to 275. So cars

4 are going by there at 65, supposedly, but

5 more like 80 miles an hour. So I need a

6 larger sign to enhance the exposure of

7 the building and bring another solid

8 company to the City of Novi.


10 Thank you. Is there anyone in the

11 audience who wishes to address the board

12 regarding this case? Seeing none, will

13 the secretary read any correspondence we

14 have regarding this case into the record.

15 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, in this

16 particular case, ten notices were mailed,

17 zero responses, zero mail returned.


19 Does the building department or city

20 attorney wish to make any comments?

21 MS. KUDLA: No.

22 MR. BOULARD: Nothing to add.


24 Thank you. Therefore, I will turn this





1 over for discussion to the board.

2 MEMBER CASSIS: The usual

3 suspect.


5 Cassis.

6 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you,

7 Mr. Chairman. I know we have been hard

8 on other signs, but this looks like an

9 easy one. I think it's not really that

10 huge anyhow, 24 square feet.


12 single-sided, also, because we took into

13 account it's the traffic going that way

14 is one way, really. You are not going to

15 see it coming westbound on 696, so it's a

16 single-sided sign. It will be angled

17 towards oncoming traffic, but it's all

18 commercial industrial. It's all

19 industrial in that area. We are not

20 impeding on any residential.

21 MEMBER CASSIS: Jim, you don't

22 really have to persuade me.

23 MR. HARRIGAN: Okay.

24 MEMBER CASSIS: I will start to





1 support you.

2 MR. HARRIGAN: I'm in the sales

3 profession.


5 Coolidge, as my wife always tell me, I

6 was never hurt by anything I've said.

7 MR. HARRIGAN: Good point.

8 MEMBER CASSIS: Or I didn't

9 say. Anyhow, so let's -- really,

10 Mr. Chairman, I have no problem with

11 this. This looks like a sign that is

12 necessary. Besides, on a freeway, so

13 that people driving by can see it. And

14 it's not really an unusually big sign, so

15 I will go along with it. Thank you.


17 Member Cassis.

18 MEMBER SANGHVI: I support

19 this.


21 else? Okay. Looking for a motion.

22 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, real

23 quickly. Before the motion is made, for

24 how long -- what duration are they





1 requesting this for? Is that something

2 we need to be able to resolve?

3 How long, sir, are you --

4 MR. HARRIGAN: I mean, I would

5 hope that it would be a very short period

6 of time. But, realistically, with the

7 economy, we got a year's marketing

8 assignment with the owner, so I'm

9 requesting 12 months.

10 MEMBER IBE: Twelve months?

11 MS. REAM: Yeah. Obviously,

12 it's down sooner, if we put a new company

13 in, it will be down, but we are

14 requesting 12 months.

15 MEMBER IBE: What are the

16 prospect of having someone within 12

17 months, do you know?

18 MR. HARRIGAN: Yeah, you have

19 talked about the state of economy. There

20 is no state of economy hurt worse in the

21 City of Novi than the commercial,

22 industrial, high-tech market. We are

23 getting -- it is a good building, it's

24 got freeway exposure, it's got heavy





1 parking. So, as I tell the owner, I

2 anticipate something happening in the

3 next six months is what -- there has been

4 some activity. We are requesting 12

5 months.

6 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. In

7 Case No. 10-014, 41370 Bridge Street, I

8 move that we grant the request as made by

9 the applicant for a period of 12 months,

10 one year.

11 The request is based upon

12 circumstances of features that are

13 exceptional and unique to the property,

14 being that we are living in hard economic

15 times, and that the petitioner needs

16 extra help and, hopefully, this will do

17 the magic to have this property rented.

18 Also, the failure to grant

19 relief will not unreasonably prevent or

20 limit the use of the property and will

21 result in substantially more than mere

22 inconvenience or inability to attain a

23 higher economic or financial return. The

24 grant of relief will not result in a use





1 of structure that is incompatible with or

2 unreasonably interferes with adjacent or

3 surrounding properties. And, also, this

4 is consistent with the spirit of the

5 ordinance. Thank you,

6 Mr. Chair.



9 have a motion by Member Ibe and a second

10 by Member Sanghvi.

11 Any other further discussion?

12 Ms. Martin, please call the

13 roll.

14 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


16 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


18 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?


20 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?


22 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


24 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?






2 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



5 Motion passes, seven-zero.

6 MR. HARRIGAN: Thank you.


8 brings us to the final case on the agenda

9 this evening. Case No. ZBA10-015, 43700

10 Expo Center Drive.

11 Petitioner is requesting a

12 variance to install an oversized and

13 over-height real estate leasing sign,

14 100 square feet and 13 feet in height for

15 43700 Expo Center Drive adjacent to the

16 I-96 Freeway. The property is zoned Expo

17 and located West of Novi Road and south

18 of I-96.

19 Please state your name and

20 address for the record. And if you are

21 not an attorney, please raise your right

22 hand and be sworn in by our secretary.

23 MR. MONTGOMERY: Jim Montgomery

24 with Signature Associates; I'm not an





1 attorney.

2 MEMBER IBE: Sir, in

3 Case No. 10-015, 43700 Expo Center Drive,

4 do you swear or affirm to tell the truth?


6 MEMBER IBE: Thank you.


8 proceed.

9 MR. MONTGOMERY: We are here to

10 look for a variance to advertise the

11 property at Expo Drive. Given the nature

12 of the property and the redevelopment

13 possibilities and brutality of this

14 economy, we need to increase exposure in

15 this property in any way possible.

16 This property has been sitting

17 there for a number of years, unused; it

18 could continue. We need to do whatever

19 we can to press every envelope to get a

20 deal for this property.


22 Thank you. Is there anyone in the

23 audience who wishes to address the board

24 regarding the case?





1 Seeing none, will the secretary

2 read any correspondence into the record.

3 MEMBER IBE: Twenty-four

4 notices were mailed. Zero responses,

5 five mail returned.


7 Does the building department or city

8 attorney wish to make any comments?

9 MS. KUDLA: No.

10 MR. BOULARD: I just have one

11 question or clarification. The drawing

12 that's included as the conceptual site

13 plan, that is indeed a conceptual site

14 plan as opposed to the existing property,

15 correct?

16 MR. MONTGOMERY: I have not

17 seen the site plan; I assume that was

18 submitted.

19 MR. BOULARD: Okay.

20 MR. MONTGOMERY: Anything

21 that's in there is not cut and dry; it's

22 going to be dependent on who buys the

23 property and their interaction with

24 Novi.





1 MR. BOULARD: I just want to

2 point out that there is two drawings, and

3 they don't agree. The sign gives the

4 sign location.


6 MR. BOULARD: Thank you.


8 this time I will open this matter up to

9 the board for discussion.

10 Member Krieger.

11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Question to

12 Mr. Boulard. Is there a sign already on

13 the Expo that we have approved before?

14 MS. KUDLA: I think that there

15 has been a past request for a size --

16 larger sign, and I think it was a few

17 years. And I don't think the Expo Center

18 has been rented out since then. I think

19 it's been vacant consistently since the

20 last approval.

21 MEMBER KRIEGER: This is a

22 separate sign?

23 MS. KUDLA: I believe it's --

24 there is only going to be one leasing





1 sign, is that correct?

2 MR. MONTGOMERY: One leasing

3 sign, correct.


5 you.


7 Member Ghannam.

8 MEMBER GHANNAM: Isn't there a

9 sign already on the property, though?

10 MR. HARRIGAN: On the property,

11 but not on the freeway and certainly not

12 of this size. We need to increase

13 exposure as much as possible.

14 MEMBER GHANNAM: I understand

15 that. Your current sign, does it face

16 Novi Road? Because I remember seeing it

17 --

18 MR. MONTGOMERY: Yes, it

19 does.

20 MEMBER GHANNAM: This one is

21 intended to face the freeway?

22 MR. MONTGOMERY: Freeway,

23 correct.

24 MEMBER GHANNAM: I understand





1 the need, obviously. I see this place

2 empty for years on a daily basis. I have

3 no problem with it. I understand the

4 freeway exposure is important, too, so I

5 don't have a problem with this.


7 Member Gedeon.

8 MEMBER GEDEON: Just for the

9 sake of comparison in the immediately

10 prior case, which was also on the same

11 freeway, it was only 24 square feet.

12 This is obviously quite a bit larger. Do

13 you have any -- did you just pull a

14 number out of a hat?

15 MR. MONTGOMERY: No, this is --

16 the magnitude of this project is roughly

17 ten-fold of the previous project. It

18 limits the number of people that are

19 available to this project. You are

20 talking about a finite community that

21 could be involved in this level of

22 investment. We need to grab anybody we

23 possibly can. This is not going to go

24 into your local neighborhood; this is a





1 national search here. Anybody that

2 drives by, we'll take a phone call.

3 MEMBER GEDEON: Thank you.


5 else?

6 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just want to

7 state that this is a huge property lying

8 vacant, and they can do with any help

9 they can get to get this place going, and

10 I have no problem supporting even this

11 size, because you can't see anything

12 smaller retail when you are going on the

13 highway. You need a large sign, and I

14 have no problem with that request.


16 Member Skelcy.

17 MEMBER SKELCY: How long did

18 you want this sign for?

19 MR. MONTGOMERY: As the last

20 gentleman, we want a year assignment, so

21 a request for a year.

22 MEMBER SKELCY: Thank you.


24 others? Seeing none, I'm looking for a





1 motion.

2 Member Ghannam.

3 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will move in

4 Case No. 10-015, 43700 Expo Drive, Expo

5 Center Drive, that we approve the

6 petition for variance as requested, for a

7 period of one year or until the property

8 is either leased or sold. And the basis

9 of the request is made upon circumstances

10 and features that are certainly

11 exceptional and unique to this property,

12 and do not result from conditions that

13 exist generally in the city or that are

14 self-created.

15 The failure to grant relief

16 will not unreasonably prevent or limit

17 the use of the property and will result

18 in substantially more than mere

19 inconvenience or inability to attain a

20 higher economic or financial return.

21 The grant of relief will not

22 result in a use of structure that is

23 incompatible with or unreasonably

24 interferes with the adjacent or





1 surrounding properties, and will result

2 in substantial justice being done to both

3 the applicant and the adjacent or

4 surrounding properties, and is not

5 inconsistent with the spirit of the

6 ordinance.



9 second by Member Sanghvi. We have a

10 motion made by Member Ghannam, and second

11 by Member Sanghvi.

12 Are there any other further

13 discussions?

14 Ms. Martin, please call the

15 roll.

16 MS. MARTIN: Member Sanghvi?


18 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?


20 MS. MARTIN: Sorry. I'm

21 getting tired.

22 Member Krieger?


24 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?






2 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Wrobel?


4 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?


6 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?



9 Motion passes, seven-zero.

10 MR. MONTGOMERY: Thank you.


12 brings us to the other matter section of

13 the agenda.

14 Does the city staff or city

15 attorney have any other matters to

16 discuss? Mr. Boulard.

17 MR. BOULARD: At the risk of

18 prolonging the meeting, Member Krieger

19 had brought up at the last meeting about

20 the lighting at the Fountain Walk, and I

21 will be meeting with the gentleman from

22 the development company on Friday morning

23 to discuss the redevelopment of that

24 north area there. So noted, and wanted





1 to let you know that hadn't gotten

2 missed.

3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Appreciate

4 that.


6 board members have any other matters to

7 discuss?

8 I have one question for Mr.

9 Boulard. We talked in regards to the

10 planning commission representative to the

11 ZBA. Do we care to clarify that, so we

12 are all on the same page?

13 MR. BOULARD: Sure. At one of

14 the last meetings, some of the members

15 had asked for clarification on the issue

16 of the planning commission representative

17 taking part in the discussion and so on.

18 And in addition to talking to Ms. Kudla,

19 and I talked to Tom Schultz, and he had

20 indicated that, yes, it's -- he

21 understands the question, that it makes

22 sense that the planning commissioner is

23 there and is to bring that information --

24 bring information to this board about the





1 general feelings of the planning

2 commission and so on. But that it was

3 appropriate when there was discussion or

4 voting on something that had been before

5 the planning commission, that the

6 commissioner would be excused. Seeing

7 that discussion and whatnot would also be

8 a chance for that individual to make

9 their opinions and persuasions.

10 MS. KUDLA: From the other

11 case.

12 MR. BOULARD: Right. From

13 having heard it twice; two bites of the

14 apple. I'm not sure if I explained that

15 accurately. I would be happy to answer

16 any questions.

17 MEMBER SANGHVI: I guess the

18 main issue of having a member here from

19 planning commission is to enlighten the

20 board here about what went on in the

21 planning commission and what were the

22 general consensus. If they are not

23 allowed to be a part of thing, I don't

24 know why they are on the board in the





1 first place; it doesn't make any sense.

2 MR. BOULARD: And the response

3 was for everything except for the things

4 they already voted on, but I did carry

5 that question forward.


7 covet to be, you know, voting or

8 anything; it doesn't matter to me. But

9 one is always wondering whether

10 research -- I presume our esteemed

11 attorney, Mr. Schultz, went into the

12 archives of the discussion in the

13 legislature and did find out what was

14 their intent?

15 MS. KUDLA: I don't know that

16 he went to the legislative history, but

17 I'm sure that he looked at the statute.

18 MEMBER CASSIS: I said esteemed

19 attorney. But, you know, at times when

20 we are trying to find out a gray area

21 like this, and we've got attorneys here.

22 Correct me if I'm out of step here, but

23 seems to me that we go into the intent,

24 and that spirit of what the -- after all,





1 this was enacted by the legislature.

2 MS. KUDLA: We would have no

3 problem doing that if --

4 MEMBER CASSIS: They chose to

5 bring the person from the planning

6 commission to come in. Now, how can they

7 participate in discussion and yet not

8 take a vote? I mean, that's like an

9 oxymoron here. And not that I coveted

10 or --

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: It doesn't

12 matter who the representative --


14 Dr. Sanghvi was correct in raising that

15 issue.

16 MS. KUDLA: Why don't we -- if

17 that's what you would choose for us to

18 do, we can look at the language of the

19 statute. And if it's not a

20 black-and-white issue that says in the

21 statute that that member can't vote, then

22 we can go into the legislative history,

23 if that's what you would --

24 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes, I would,





1 just to for clarification's sake.

2 MS. KUDLA: Okay.

3 MEMBER CASSIS: Also, we might

4 want to look at other municipalities, how

5 are they treating it?

6 MEMBER SANGHVI: What are they

7 doing about it?

8 MS. KUDLA: That would be the

9 same thing, yeah.


11 appreciation. Thank you. Thank you,

12 Mr. Chairman.

13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.


15 Is that something we should have on the

16 agenda for next month, or is that going

17 to take longer to investigate?

18 MS. KUDLA: I think it's

19 something that can be investigated

20 reasonably quickly, because it's -- most

21 of the legislative history is all

22 computerized on the State of Michigan

23 website now. If we find the statute

24 doesn't just state in black and white





1 that it's prohibited, then it's easy

2 enough to access.


4 next month we'll have some

5 clarification.

6 MS. KUDLA: Yeah.


8 Any other items? Okay. I'm

9 looking for a motion to adjourn.





14 favor?



17 The meeting is adjourned.

18 (Meeting was

19 adjourned at 9:00

20 p.m)

21 - - -









) ss.


I, Sherri L. Ruff, Notary

Public within and for the County of

Wayne, State of Michigan, do hereby

certify that the Proceedings and

Testimony was stenographically recorded

and afterwards transcribed by computer

under my personal supervision, and is a

full, true and correct transcript of the


IN WITNESS THEREOF, I have hereunto

set my hand at the City of Detroit,

County of Wayne, State of Michigan.



Date Sherri L. Ruff,


Wayne County,


My Commission

Expires: 9/25/15