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MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, January 12, 2010.
1 Novi, Michigan
2 Tuesday, January 12, 2010
3 7:00 p.m.
4 - - - - - -
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'd like to call
6 this meeting to order. If we can all rise
7 for the pledge of allegiance, please. I'll
8 have our newest member, Ms. Skelcy, lead us
9 in the pledge of allegiance.
10 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to
11 the flag of the United States of America,
12 and to the republic for which it stands, one
13 nation under God indivisible with liberty
14 and justice for all.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you. Mr.
16 Boulard, would you like to bring something
17 to our attention?
18 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. Just for the
19 record, we are missing our Chairman and
20 Vice-Chairman, the Chairperson tonight, so
21 as an order of business we would need to, I
22 believe, appoint a Chairman and a Secretary
23 for the duration of the meeting. So, with
24 that said, I will certainly turn that over
1 to --
2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, if we can
3 have a nomination for Chair?
4 MEMBER CASSIS: I move that we appoint
5 Mr. Ghannam as the chairman.
6 MEMBER IBE: I'll second that.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor say
9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
11 (No response.)
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, we will have
13 appointed myself as Chairman for tonight.
14 And for Secretary we would need someone to
15 read the Minutes and so forth and swear in
16 witnesses, so I would like to move to have
17 Ms. Krieger as our Secretary tonight just
18 for tonight's purposes.
19 MEMBER CASSIS: Second.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor?
21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
23 (No response.)
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is that
1 sufficient to have both?
2 MS. KUDLA: Yes.
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, if we
4 can have roll call, please.
5 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
6 MEMBER IBE: Present.
7 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
8 MEMBER CASSIS: Here.
9 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Present.
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
12 MEMBER SKELCY: Here.
13 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam?
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Here. And as
15 you mentioned we have two absent, but we do
16 have a quorum tonight, correct?
17 MS. KUDLA: Yes.
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I am going to go
19 over some of the rules of conduct for
20 tonight's purposes. Please turn off your
21 pagers and cell phones during our meeting.
22 The applicant or representative for these
23 cases will be asked to come forth, state
24 their name and address and be sworn in by
1 our secretary. The applicants will be
2 allowed five minutes to address the Board
3 and present their case. An extension of
4 time may be granted at the discretion of the
6 Anyone in the audience who wishes to
7 address the Board regarding the current case
8 will be asked by the Chairman to raise their
9 hands to be recognized.
10 Members of the audience will be
11 allowed to address the Board once unless
12 directly questioned by a Board Member or the
13 Chairperson. The Chairperson will turn the
14 case over to the Board for discussion,
15 clarification and entertain a motion where
17 Impromptu statements from the audience
18 during discussion by the Board will be
19 considered out of order. Any roll call vote
20 will be taken to approve or deny the motion
21 on the table and the next case will be
23 And for tonight's purposes because we
24 only have five, my understanding is that for
1 a non-use variance, four votes out of five
2 of the present members is required. And for
3 a use variance there is going to be five
4 necessary; is that correct?
5 MS. KUDLA: We don't have any use
6 variances on the agenda.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, all
8 votes tonight will require at least four of
9 the five members. And we can offer to
10 anybody if they want a full Board to come
12 MS. KUDLA: That's correct.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. So, if
14 there is anybody out there with a case that
15 wants a full Board as opposed to the five
16 present you can come now and we can consider
17 a motion to adjourn the matter. Is there
19 (No response.)
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none,
21 we'll move on. We'll go over the agenda.
22 Are there any additions or deletions to the
24 MS. MARTIN: No, there is not.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
2 have any comments or concerns about the
4 (No response.)
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, I
6 will entertain a motion to approve the
8 MEMBER CASSIS: Motion to approve.
9 MEMBER IBE: Second.
10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
11 discussion? Seeing none, all in favor to
12 approve the agenda say aye?
13 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
15 The agenda is approved.
16 And how about the Minutes of the
17 meeting, you were all given a package for
18 the Minutes of the November 10th meeting.
19 Are there any comments or concerns or
20 additions or deletions for the Minutes of
21 the meeting?
22 MS. KUDLA: I have two changes. My
23 first change is page 39, line 2, where it
24 indicates: Un-complete site issues. It
1 should be incomplete site issues.
2 And then page 40, line 24 what is
3 listed as R-A-L-U-P-A, it should be
4 R-L-U-I-P-A. Those are my only two changes.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
6 suggested changes or modifications to the
7 Minutes of the November 10th, meeting?
8 Okay. Seeing none, I would entertain a
9 motion to approve the Minutes as amended.
10 MEMBER CASSIS: Move to approve the
11 Minutes as amended.
12 MEMBER IBE: Second.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
14 discussion? Seeing none, all in favor say
16 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
18 Seeing none, the Minutes of the November
19 10th, meeting are approved.
20 There is a section at this point for
21 public remarks. If anybody cares to make a
22 public comment not on a pending case, you
23 can step forward and make that now if there
24 are any.
1 (No response.)
2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none,
3 we'll close the public remark section and we
4 will move to our first case.
5 The first case being 09-051 for 1627
6 West Lake Drive. MJ Whelan Construction
7 Company is requesting a variance to allow
8 construction of a two story addition to an
9 existing non-conforming residence at 1627
10 West Lake Drive. In addition to the
11 following dimensional variances, the
12 project requires an exception to 2502.3.A
13 to allow expansion of a non-conforming
14 structure. Property is zoned R-4 and is
15 located south of Pontiac Trial and east of
16 West Park Drive.
17 Will the applicant please come
18 forward. Sir, if you can state your full
20 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, Mat Whelan.
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Are you an
23 MR. WHELAN: No, I am not.
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, you need
1 to raise your right hand and be sworn in by
2 our secretary.
3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do you swear in case
4 number: 09-051 on 1627 West Lake Drive to
5 tell the truth in this case?
6 MR. WHELAN: Yes, I do.
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: State your
9 address and then proceed with your case.
10 MR. WHELAN: The address of our
11 business or this --
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Your business is
14 MR. WHELAN: 620 North Milford Road is
15 our place of business.
16 And what's before you this morning --
17 I mean, this evening, I'm sorry, is a couple
18 of variances that we were hoping to get
19 passed by this Board. The process that we
20 used to go through this was, it's been
21 almost a year, almost a year we actually
22 were called out onto the site and the
23 owners, they have an existing garage that's
24 in disrepair.
1 The house as it sits is
2 non-compliant so anything we did to it we
3 were going to probably end up in front of
4 this Board. So, there was a desire to
5 attach the garage to the house. At that
6 point we went ahead and got an engineer,
7 took a look at how the site was laid out and
8 how the house was laid out.
9 And respecting all of the
10 boundaries that are and our restrictions, we
11 really tried to come up with the best case
12 scenario that would allow something that
13 looked appealing to the community and the
14 neighbors and still tried to stay within the
15 same, you know, criteria that the other
16 homes that were remodeled in the same, you
17 know, adjacent to it, next to it, on the
18 same street. Really what's before you now
19 is our best, our best approach to this Board
20 and the homeowners on what we would like to
22 So, I think the highlights of it
23 mainly would -- that I think would pertain
24 to the Board is, outside of the request for
1 the variances, the garage width on it is
2 something that it's only 20 foot wide. We
3 would obviously love to have a wider garage
4 than 20 foot wide. It's hardly a two car
5 garage. I felt to try to stay as compliant
6 as possible we narrowed that up. Along with
7 the front porch, we kept that as narrow as
8 possible to try to hold down on the variance
10 One of the things that made the site
11 difficult was the existing house and how it
12 sits on the lot is skewed, so it doesn't
13 parallel the property line. So, unless we
14 decided to draw an addition that turned and
15 just would be very unappealing, it really
16 left us with the situation that's before you
17 this evening.
18 Those are the highlights. Of course,
19 I can answer any other questions you may
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open for
22 public remarks at this time on this case.
23 Is there anybody in the audience that would
24 like to comment on this case?
1 (No response.)
2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none, I
3 will close that section and ask the City if
4 they have any comments?
5 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. This request
6 is typical of many that the Board sees for
7 lake lots. And the variances are, the
8 variances are numerous because of the tight
9 situation. In particular, I want to point
10 out that there is a variance, several
11 variances for eave projection into the
12 setbacks. The zoning ordinance allows a
13 maximum of two inches for every one foot of
14 setback with required side setbacks for
15 eaves. In this case the eaves exceed that
16 allowable amount, so that's why those show
18 I did request that our acting fire
19 marshal take a look at this and for
20 comments, knowing that the Board typically
21 request those. His comments were, his
22 suggestion was that if there is any way
23 possible to reconfigure the proposed eaves
24 to lessen the non-conformance and eliminate
1 three to four variances by reducing the
2 overhang and eliminating part of the
3 addition to the west side to reduce the
4 setback. So, those were his suggestions.
5 Also in anticipation of any questions
6 I want to just clarify that the Building
7 Code, the Michigan Residential Code this
8 would fall under would actually require fire
9 resistance ratings for basically any walls,
10 projections and so on that are within five
11 feet of the property line. So, whatever
12 this Board decides if the project goes
13 forward, those would be the requirements for
14 the Building Code. So, those are some
15 things that will be taken care of or have to
16 be addressed. With that said, if there are
17 any questions, I would be happy to answer
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. I'll open
20 it up for questions from the Board. Anybody
21 from the Board? Oh, thank you, Mr. Ibe. I
22 would like the Secretary to read any
23 correspondence that we received.
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
1 09-051, 51 notices were mailed and three
2 returned mail. Three approvals, no
3 objections. First approval, no comment.
4 We're next door to 1627.
5 The second one was an approval.
6 "Congratulations on your decision to expand
7 your home on West Lake Drive. It will add
8 value to our community.
9 Wendy and I hope that your family will be
10 pleased with the results." And that's from
12 The third one is, "I give my approval
13 for the applicant for his request." From
14 1611 West Lake. That's it.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Now I'll open it
16 up for any questions from the Board. Ms.
18 MEMBER SKELCY: The City has a concern
19 about the eaves on the upper part. And I
20 was wondering why they were sticking out so
21 far. Was that part of the ambience of the
22 design of the house?
23 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, it's a little over
24 the eaves quite a bit. And we probably
1 could have gotten less eaves there by just
2 making the footprint bigger, but that would
3 probably be even harder to explain to you.
4 The real issue is it just turns into like a
5 tree fort type look. It's just tall,
6 skinny. And the real thought behind it is
7 the house right next to it is almost four
8 foot six off the property line. So, we were
9 still trying to not exasperate the
10 situation, but not make it look so ugly.
11 You know, it just really, it just helps with
12 the overall look of the home.
13 The eave itself is 12 foot off the
14 ground level. I thought, or at least me and
15 my designer thought that that would be less
16 obtrusive as far as a variance is concerned
17 as opposed to trying -- if we widen the
18 footprint we could lower the eave down and
19 make the house seem just more appealing.
20 But by keeping that footprint skinnier, we
21 didn't get close to the lot lines. But the
22 overhang has got bigger just to kind of help
23 with the look of the home is really the
24 reasoning. It just doesn't look as good
1 without the bigger eaves.
2 You know, again, that's, I think
3 that's a value added community wise and
4 everything else, you know, as opposed to
5 driving down the street and saying, what did
6 they do that for? You know, that's the
7 reason we're before you.
8 MEMBER SKELCY: Is there going to be
9 any runoff onto the neighbors' property from
10 the eaves? Do they have gutters on them?
11 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, we'll have gutters
12 on the home. Not any more exasperated than
13 the situation they have there now.
14 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. Thank you.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
16 questions from the Board? Ms. Krieger?
17 MEMBER KRIEGER: On the eaves, the
18 flammability of them compared to other parts
19 of the house? Because I did like the design
20 myself as well.
21 MR. WHELAN: Thank you.
22 MEMBER KRIEGER: How to make the eaves
23 fit in as you say for the ambience of the
24 house, and I guess flammability would be a
1 worry, so what's the material?
2 MR. WHELAN: There are some different
3 materials we could use if we get inside that
4 five foot mark as far as a fire wall is
5 concerned. The flammability of the eaves
6 would be very similar to the same rating as
7 the home, you know.
8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
10 have any questions? Mr. Boulard?
11 MR. BOULARD: I have one question,
12 just a point of clarification. On the
13 existing site plan there is an existing shed
14 along kind of the northeast side of the
15 property that doesn't show up on the -- it's
16 non-conforming. It looks like it was in
17 there possibly and it doesn't show up as far
18 as I can see on the plans. Is that intended
19 to go away?
20 MR. WHELAN: I actually don't know
21 anything about the shed. I don't know.
22 MR. BOULARD: Do you know if it's
23 there now?
24 MR. WHELAN: I don't know if it's
1 there now. I'm getting the indication it
2 might still be there.
3 MR. BOULARD: Is that something that
4 would be acceptable to do away with once
5 this nice new garage is --
6 MR. WHELAN: I'm sure he could
7 probably do away with it --
8 MR. BOULARD: I was just going to
9 suggest that as maybe a condition.
10 MR. WHELAN: Sure.
11 MR. BOULARD: Thank you.
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
13 comments from the Board? Actually while you
14 are all thinking I have got a couple of
15 questions. Did the fire marshal indicate
16 that the eave issue and the variances have
17 anything to do with the safety for the
19 MR. BOULARD: That's what he addressed
20 from a fire safety standpoint. So, he
21 looked at it in terms of a fire safety
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay.
24 MR. WHELAN: I think there is a
1 certain fall zone that he is dealing with at
2 that point.
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is a certain
4 what? I'm sorry.
5 MR. WHELAN: What they call a fall
6 zone. You know, if a house catches fire and
7 how close you get to the other homes.
8 The home directly next to it on that
9 property line on your site plan, it's only
10 4.6 feet away. I mean, there is a --
11 they're kind of almost, they are almost two
12 foot worse than we are in the same
13 situation. So, it would be just the corner
14 of the porch, I think which is something to
15 think about. It's not actually a bedroom or
16 living area or something along those lines.
17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: In terms of the
18 side yard setbacks is there anything that
19 you could do to minimize those that you
21 MR. WHELAN: Well, I mean, knowing
22 that we had to come before this Board with
23 something, we have done just about
24 everything that we feel would make sense.
1 We tried to respect the side yard setbacks
2 and still have somewhat of a porch and
3 somewhat of a garage. I don't know if we
4 could make the garages any smaller. We
5 certainly can't make the porch any smaller.
6 It just becomes non-useable. It becomes a
7 stoop. From something we would want to get
8 approved to something that we don't, you
9 know, that really wouldn't look good. So, I
10 think we have tried to do everything I can
11 think off.
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
13 have any questions?
14 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. Thank you, Mr.
15 Chairman. Yeah, that porch situation maybe
16 is what I have a little problem with. And
17 you said it's just for ambience, you know,
18 to make it look --
19 MR. WHELAN: Well, we're at four foot
20 six on a porch, by the time you use the
21 railing on 42 inches you could hardly --
22 that's barely passable.
23 MEMBER CASSIS: I understand that.
24 But I am questioning why put the porch?
1 MR. WHELAN: Excuse me?
2 MEMBER CASSIS: Why put the porch?
3 You said it's to make it look better. You
4 know, a little bit more ambience. Is that
5 what you said?
6 MR. WHELAN: Well, yeah, just to try
7 to add some width to the lower section so
8 that we aren't so skinny and tall.
9 MEMBER CASSIS: Can you put, for
10 instance, I have seen windows -- are you
11 going to have windows down there or
13 MR. WHELAN: Yeah, there are windows.
14 MEMBER CASSIS: Well, sometimes you
15 bring out a window maybe 10 inches or
16 something, five or 10 inches and it breaks
17 the wall situation and instead of putting
18 this porch, can you consider something like
19 that? I am trying to --
20 MR. WHELAN: No, believe me, we have
21 really gone through a lot of design
22 renderings to try to come up with something.
23 MEMBER CASSIS: Did you think of what
24 I'm saying?
1 MR. WHELAN: Absolutely.
2 MEMBER CASSIS: What do you call
4 MR. WHELAN: The boxed out porches.
5 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah, yeah.
6 MR. WHELAN: If you actually look at
7 the prints there are several on them
9 MEMBER CASSIS: You wouldn't want to
11 MR. WHELAN: It wouldn't help to
12 facilitate the entryway much easier. It
13 wouldn't really address, a boxed out window
14 really wouldn't address our entryway and
15 rectify the situation that I think we have.
16 MEMBER CASSIS: Okay, thank you. I
17 appreciate it. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
19 questions or comments by the Board? Anybody
20 would like to make a motion on this case?
21 Mr. Ibe?
22 MEMBER IBE: Yes. Well, thank you,
23 Mr. Chair. On case number: 09-051, 1627
24 West Lake Drive, I'll move that we grant the
1 variances as requested by the applicant.
2 And the reasons for granting the variance is
3 the fact that the setback, frontage, height,
4 bulk and density requirements unreasonably
5 prevent the use of the property for the
6 permitted use. And the variance would
7 provide substantial justice to the
8 applicant. And the surrounding property
9 area obviously would be elevated in terms of
10 the property values considering the
11 development that the applicant wants to put
12 forward. And there are unique circumstances
13 to this property that should make it
14 allowable for these variances to be granted.
15 And the problem is not self created.
16 The variance requested does not impede
17 any light or air of adjacent properties.
18 And the fire marshal already has taken a
19 look at the property and I believe that one
20 of the conditions that was stated is that
21 the applicant remove the existing
22 non-compliant accessory building. I believe
23 that the applicant said that is okay.
24 MR. WHELAN: Um-hum.
1 MEMBER IBE: And the issue of increase
2 of fire danger or public safety is
3 adequately addressed. And finally, the
4 granting of these variances as requested is
5 consistent with the Zoning Ordinance.
6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
8 discussion? If you can take the roll.
9 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
10 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
12 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
13 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
15 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
16 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
17 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam?
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. Your
19 variances have been granted.
21 MR. WHELAN: Thank you.
22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Moving on to the
23 next case, calling case number: 09-052 for
24 27225 Wixom Road, Catholic Central High
1 School. Will the applicant step forward.
2 Catholic Central High School is
3 requesting a variance to allow one
4 additional 24 square foot, 54 inch high
5 identification ground sign located at the
6 south entrance to the property of 27225
7 Wixom Road. The proposed sign would include
8 changeable copy. The property is zoned R-1
9 and located south of Grand River and west of
10 Wixom Road.
11 Father, can you please state your name
12 for us?
13 FATHER ELMER: Richard Elmer, 26095
14 Taft Road in Novi.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you can raise
16 your hand and be sworn, sir.
17 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question.
18 Is the swearing in for this case separate
19 from the previous one we just did? Or does
20 his swearing in from the previous case
22 MS. KUDLA: We can just have him sworn
23 in again.
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. In case
1 number: 09-052, 27225 Wixom Road for
2 Catholic Central High School, do you swear
3 to tell the truth in this case?
4 FATHER ELMER: I do.
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.
6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, proceed.
7 FATHER ELMER: Sure. Some months ago
8 we requested a sign for our north entrance,
9 a second sign that is, and it was denied.
10 I'm now requesting a one and only sign at
11 the south entrance. Obviously there will
12 still be two signs with the one on the
13 north. That sign is about 600 feet apart
14 from the north sign. There are three homes
15 that are in between the two signs. And I
16 was encouraged by the fact that Novi High
17 School has two signs at their entrances.
18 And, therefore, I was encouraged to apply
19 for this south entrance.
20 I did notice after I had applied when
21 the sign actually went up at the north
22 entrance that it was crowded and we
23 certainly would have had to pare it down.
24 But at the south entrance it's the only one
1 there. The sign is meant to announce future
2 events and to celebrate our achievements.
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you.
4 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any comments
6 from the City?
7 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. Nothing to
8 add other than what's included in your
9 packet other than I just wanted to verify
10 that the sign as installed will be far
11 enough back that it won't block the corner
12 clearance for vehicles coming in and out?
13 FATHER ELMER: That's correct.
14 MR. BOULARD: We will need to have it
15 comply with that.
16 FATHER ELMER: Certainly.
17 MR. BOULARD: With that I will turn it
18 over to the Board. If there are any
19 questions please let us know.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If our Secretary
21 could read any correspondence?
22 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
23 09-052, 219 notices were mailed. Thirty
24 returned. Two objections. No approval.
1 And the first one -- where do I start?
2 "We strongly oppose the approval of this
3 variance. CC continues to receive special
4 consideration at the expense of the
5 residents, a/k/a the taxpayers and who vote,
6 the people who are eligible to vote in Novi.
7 We are in Island Lake and have to deal with
8 Catholic Central, one, traffic. Two,
9 parking on our street, cutting across
10 private property on game days because they
11 don't have enough parking. Students running
12 CC and track in the streets and not moving
13 out for the cars. And noise from the games.
14 We don't want to pass the large sign every
15 day. CC are not good neighbors. This does
16 not include the water runoff which is a
17 whole different issue. We are tired of the
18 exceptional -- and the rest is not here.
19 MEMBER CASSIS: On the back maybe?
20 MEMBER KRIEGER: No, there is no more
21 on the back.
22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Who was that
23 sent from?
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: That is from the
1 Sittou (ph) family on Fieldstone Drive.
2 MEMBER SKELCY: What's the address?
3 MEMBER KRIEGER: 26436 Fieldstone
5 And the second one is from Phil and
6 Megan Hodge on Island Lake Drive. "One sign
7 on Wixom Road should be enough to meet the
8 needs of Catholic Central High School. The
9 other schools within the Novi community only
10 have one sign per entrance. Two signs
11 should not be needed. Also the area where
12 Catholic Central is located is highly
13 residential and the addition of another sign
14 would not fit the residential area. We do
15 not feel the variance should be granted."
16 That's it.
17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, just the
19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Just the two.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up
21 for public remarks. Is there anybody in the
22 public who would like to make comments?
23 Please come down.
24 MS. SITTOU: Do I come up there?
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, please come
2 to the podium. State your name and address.
3 MS. SITTOU (ph): My name is Francis
4 Sittou. My address is 26436 Fieldstone
5 Drive. My husband Tom is in attendance with
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Can you please
8 raise your hand and be sworn?
9 MS. SITTOU: Yes.
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
11 09-052 for 27225 Wixom Road, Catholic
12 Central High School, do you swear to tell
13 the truth in this case?
14 MS. SITTOU: Yes.
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.
16 MS. SITTOU: First I congratulate you
17 on reading my submittal. I actually was
18 quite frustrated as you can tell when I
19 wrote it. So, it was cover to cover, so she
20 captured the essence of it.
21 We are objecting to it for two reasons
22 outside of the frustration that is captured
23 in my note. One is, Catholic Central
24 already has a very large lighted sign at
1 their main entrance. And as noted it's a
2 residential area and the second sign should
3 not be required as noted with the other Novi
4 public schools.
5 Second, and more importantly and is a
6 concern for us is, the main entrance, the
7 sign proposal is at the secondary entrance
8 since the first one was not approved at the
9 primary entrance to advertise events. That
10 entrance has a traffic light to help
11 facilitate the traffic flow which is
12 significant on game days and event days.
13 The traffic flow is such that traffic has
14 overflowed into Target, Meijers and onto
15 Island Lake. It is to the point on the game
16 days where I learned on the local news that
17 there were 8,000 people in attendance at
18 Catholic Central games which is a whole
19 other issue outside of this Board in terms
20 of compliance and fire safety rules. That
21 the overflow, if you have the sign on the
22 secondary entrance it may encourage people
23 to go into the secondary entrance which does
24 not have any lights to facilitate that
1 traffic flow. We already have all the
2 overflow traffic onto Island Lake to the
3 point when we had the game days it was on
4 both sides. And so I have already expressed
5 my concerns to the City relative to that
6 situation regarding, do they have access to
7 the fire hydrant, because that is where the
8 people have forged the path at the fire
9 hydrant to cut across the private berm at
10 Island Lake. And then also because it is a
11 narrow street, is there enough room for an
12 emergency vehicle to go through on game days
13 when you have bumper to bumper parking on
14 both sides of Island Lake.
15 And as I have mentioned to the City,
16 within my own home I have had to call the
17 emergency vehicles twice in the time that we
18 have lived at Island Lake. So, we again are
19 strongly opposing this. We absolutely feel
20 that there have been special consideration
21 across the board which is crossing the line,
22 and outside of that there is valid reasons
23 in terms of they got a large lighted sign.
24 They have got a traffic light. There is
1 obviously not enough parking and that's
2 potentially going to encourage more traffic
3 flow onto the private streets.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I have a quick
5 for you. Are you saying the sign would not
6 help facilitate traffic?
7 MS. SITTOU: No, because it's at the
8 second entrance. And at the main entrance
9 where there is the very large sign that
10 could be reconfigured that has the traffic
11 light that's helping with the traffic flow.
12 If they put it at the second entrance which
13 is more used as an exit on that street that
14 they put the sign up now is abutting to
15 Island Lake. So, if people are missing or
16 if there is too much traffic at the light in
17 the main entrance and they go to the second
18 entrance then they go oops, then they are on
19 to Island Lake.
20 I mean, there is a well established --
21 I mean, my husband and I have called the
22 police department multiple times over the
23 years and the police cars have come out due
24 to the traffic problems that we have had on
1 Island Lake. So, there is the sign, that
2 street and that sign is right next to Island
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you,
5 ma'am, for your consideration.
6 MS. SITTOU: Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else in
8 the public that would like to make comments
9 on this specific case?
10 (No response.)
11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing no one
12 else we will close the public remark section
13 and I will open it up to the Board for any
14 questions or comments. Ms. Krieger?
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question.
16 Regarding this sign, the one that's there
17 now it's celebrating the excellence sign,
18 but in this proposal it says it would
19 include changeable copy. I didn't see how
20 that was in there. I was wondering if you
21 were going to give us a mock-up on that?
22 FATHER ELMER: We could. The
23 changeable copy would be just that the
24 celebrating our excellence is a cloth sign
1 that would be removed and then a new sign
2 either announcing events that we have
3 celebrating our achievements would be put up
4 instead. It's easily taken off and another
5 one put on.
6 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, the brick would
7 stay, and in the middle just that part of
8 the sign would change?
9 FATHER ELMER: That's correct.
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: It wouldn't be an
11 electronic digital printout?
12 FATHER ELMER: Yes, it would not be
13 electronic digital. And, by the way, the
14 two bricks that are framing it can be
15 removed in four minutes. Our maintenance
16 people who designed it can do that in case
17 we have to.
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: That's the same sign
19 where the light is?
20 FATHER ELMER: At the south entrance,
22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Are you worried
23 somebody would steal that, though, if it can
24 be removed in four minutes?
1 FATHER ELMER: It takes a front loader
2 to remove it.
3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
4 FATHER ELMER: And we have requested
5 the police to ticket any cars that are
6 parking illegally in Island Lakes during any
7 of our sporting events. That's something
8 that happened toward the end of the year.
9 I'm the president of Catholic Central. I
10 found out about it towards the end of the
11 season. So, I don't think it should be the
12 same problem next year if they are parking
14 MEMBER KRIEGER: That was my question.
15 Thank you.
16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
17 have any questions? Mr. Cassis?
18 MEMBER CASSIS: Good evening, Father.
19 FATHER ELMER: Good evening.
20 MEMBER CASSIS: How are you?
21 FATHER ELMER: I'm fine, thank you.
22 MEMBER CASSIS: Good. I would have
23 omitted to swearing you. There was no
24 reason for it. Anyhow, Father Elmer, first,
1 I will deal with the question of this lady
2 who is very distraught and there was another
3 objection. And probably there might be
4 others at Island Lake that are discomfort.
5 You just said you told the police too. Have
6 you taken any internal actions, instructions
7 or anything or maybe barriers for that
8 evening, or some sort of a physical kind of
9 an informative directions to prohibit some
10 of the stuff that is really working havoc
11 with this neighbor?
12 FATHER ELMER: First of all, the track
13 people that have been referred to have been
14 told not to run through Island Lake. And I
15 would like to learn or find out if any of
16 that is still happening. Any discomfort or
17 inconvenience that Catholic Central is
18 causing, I would welcome phone calls to my
19 office, and if you call the main school
20 number you can get me. And I would take
21 action on it immediately.
22 Up to now I have not done anything,
23 taken any positive effort to perhaps make
24 myself available to the community at Island
1 Lake. I certainly would be willing to do
2 that if they wanted to have a town meeting
3 or something like that, I would be very
4 happy to. Because we don't want to be bad
5 neighbors, that's for sure.
6 MEMBER CASSIS: You know, Father,
7 without me trying to tell you what to do,
8 but in cases sometimes like this, you may
9 appoint referees or you may appoint certain
10 faculty members to take watch or to be alert
11 to those things and put them in places where
12 -- I mean, there are ways of trying to deal
13 with the situation besides you being
14 informed. I mean, they can call you, they
15 can call the police, but how is the police
16 going to come there all night long?
17 FATHER ELMER: We have police there on
18 site that certainly could take it. And we
19 also have a team of dads that work every
20 game and they could certainly add another
21 couple of members that could monitor the
22 entrances to the events for those nights.
23 MEMBER CASSIS: Would you want to deal
24 with some of these people next door?
1 FATHER ELMER: Certainly, I would be
2 very happy to.
3 MEMBER CASSIS: And talk to them?
4 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
5 MEMBER CASSIS: The second question I
6 have, Father, is this. What is the urgency
7 of having that many signs? Why? I mean,
8 are you in need of more students? Are you
9 having difficulties with directions? What is
10 the urgency that you need to spend more
11 money and having this kind of precipitous
12 thing happening?
13 FATHER ELMER: It's not an urgency, I
14 have to admit that. But it's just good
15 business, first of all, to brag about your
16 own achievements and to announce the events
17 that you are trying to get as large a
18 population to them. Like the rummage sale,
19 for example, that we have every year, things
20 like that. Many of which help the community
21 as well.
22 So, no, I can't say that there is an
23 urgency to it. We don't have a full school,
24 but it's close. And the economic situation
1 that we're in today I think is such that we
2 don't know what the next couple of years are
3 going to hold. We are losing quite a few
4 students from the ninth to the tenth and
5 tenth to the eleventh. Our freshman classes
6 are continuing to be high. So that's where
7 the concern is. So, you do, and you don't
8 rest on your laurels either, if you are
9 doing well you want to keep improving. The
10 ship doesn't go forward, it starts to go
12 MEMBER CASSIS: That's true. The third
13 thing I wanted to ask is, we asked you last
14 time you were here if you would put
15 something underneath the existing sign.
16 What have you thought about that?
17 FATHER ELMER: I had my architect look
18 at it. As a matter of fact he said he spent
19 several hours at it and said that there is
20 no way that they could do that and still
21 keep that sign presentable and having a look
22 of class to it. And I couldn't think of any
23 way to do it.
24 MEMBER CASSIS: Because Novi High
1 School they put their Novi High School there
2 and then they have their sign underneath.
3 FATHER ELMER: They have that moving
4 sign. But for the purposes of announcing
5 events or celebrating achievements, it just
6 wouldn't be enough space to do that. And
7 the location of it is not as noticeable
8 because it's not facing the street and the
9 traffic that's coming forward. But he did,
10 as I say, he made a good effort to make it
11 work and he just couldn't.
12 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Father.
13 FATHER ELMER: Thank you.
14 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Mr.
16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
17 have any comments or questions? Actually I
18 have a few, Father, if you don't mind.
19 FATHER ELMER: Oh, sure.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: The intent of
21 the new sign is not going to be for
22 directional purposes to direct people in and
23 out of that particular entrance?
24 FATHER ELMER: No.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's simply to
2 announce student achievements and so forth?
3 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You heard the
5 resident, her comments about issues with
6 traffic and so forth. How would you address
7 those concerns if this is simply for student
9 FATHER ELMER: First of all, I would
10 welcome to have a meeting with that family.
11 But my effort right now would be, it won't
12 be that problem now until next fall. But at
13 that time or even before that, organize the
14 dads so that they will monitor those
15 entrances to Island Lake, and remind the
16 police or ask them if they would monitor the
17 parking there as well.
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Currently that
19 south entrance, it's an entrance and exit,
21 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is there
23 anything there to identify it's an entrance
24 and exit to Catholic Central?
1 FATHER ELMER: No. Right now there is
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: And just so I'm
4 clear, this is not going to be a digital
5 sign, correct?
6 FATHER ELMER: Correct.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's simply
8 going to be a sign that you can change
9 messages and so forth?
10 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: And I also
12 noticed on your sketch here that this will
13 basically be seen as you travel south?
14 FATHER ELMER: Um-hum.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's a yes?
16 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
17 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: As you are
18 coming north you would not be able to see
19 that angle of the sign?
20 FATHER ELMER: No. We figure that most
21 of the time during the year that traveling
22 north it would be dark for many of the
23 traffic that wouldn't see it anyway.
24 But traveling from the south they would be
1 seeing it mostly after work where the light
2 would still be there and they could read
3 the sign that way. And that's why it was
4 designed on that side of our south entrance
5 rather than on the other.
6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I don't have any
7 other questions, Father. Thank you.
8 Anybody else? Ms. Skelcy?
9 MEMBER SKELCY: Will the sign be
11 FATHER ELMER: No.
12 MEMBER SKELCY: Do you know how far it
13 would be from Island Lake Road?
14 FATHER ELMER: Oh, quite a distance.
15 From the entrance to Island Lake?
16 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
17 FATHER ELMER: Aren't there one or two
18 homes in between, I believe? So, it's not
19 right there.
20 MEMBER SKELCY: All right. Thank you.
21 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome.
22 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Mr. Ibe?
23 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, a real quick
24 question for Mr. Boulard there. The Father
1 just mentioned that there is no sign for the
2 south entrance telling you it's a place of
3 ingress and egress for Catholic Central.
4 Ordinarily assuming that they didn't have
5 the sign here, would they be allowed to have
6 any kind of sign there that say it's the
7 entrance to Catholic Central? Are they
8 allowed to have that?
9 MR. BOULARD: There are, the sign
10 ordinance does allow directional signs for
11 internal circulation and so on, they are
12 generally a maximum of three square feet and
13 those are like the ones that you would see
14 for restaurants that say enter or exit.
15 What I don't know is if those would be
16 applicable to this use. I would be happy to
17 try to track that down for you right now.
18 FATHER ELMER: I would be happy to
19 comply with anything that you would wish us
20 to have identifying Catholic Central.
21 MEMBER IBE: Just one moment, Father.
22 FATHER ELMER: Sure.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: While he is
24 looking that up, Father, I had another
1 question. I remember the sign request last
2 year. That was at the north entrance,
4 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: The request at
6 that time was for a digital sign if I
8 FATHER ELMER: No.
9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It was not?
10 FATHER ELMER: No, it was the same
11 sign that's there now is exactly the same
12 one that we had requested for the north
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, the one that
15 you are requesting now for the south
16 entrance that was the same request as the
17 north entrance last year?
18 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I understand
21 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, while they are
22 looking may I ask the Father a question?
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Please, go
1 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
2 Father, the south entrance as it's currently
3 right now, is that being used on a regular
4 basis by the students or faculty or parents
5 to go in and out of Catholic Central?
6 FATHER ELMER: On a minimal basis,
7 yes. I would say not even ten percent of
8 the traffic would be using it, but some of
9 them do.
10 MEMBER IBE: Do you have a higher
11 increase of traffic during the football
12 season for that south entrance as compared
13 to the regular, any other time of the year?
14 FATHER ELMER: Certainly at the night
15 of the games we do. Especially exiting.
16 The entrance is usually -- I believe the
17 dads even direct everybody to the north
18 entrance so the traffic flow would be kept,
19 and the parking, they could find the parking
20 more easily that way too.
21 MEMBER IBE: Do you envision that
22 perhaps placing this new sign that you are
23 going to have there, do you envision that
24 increasing the traffic flow of the use of
1 the south entrance?
2 FATHER ELMER: It might some. I'm not
3 sure that much because of the convenience of
4 using the north entrance because that's the
5 one that takes them right to the entrances
6 to the school. So, I would say it could be
7 some. I think if we put up a sign
8 identifying it as Catholic Central High
9 School that might increase it. But how
10 much, I couldn't, I couldn't say.
11 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Father.
12 FATHER ELMER: You are welcome.
13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Could I followup?
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes.
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: Also then for the
16 second sign on the south entrance, that
17 would be more then to advertise to the
18 community? Then if you had put up a sign
19 that said that we're going to have an event,
20 that would suit more at the primary entrance
22 FATHER ELMER: The events that we
23 have, many of them are for the community.
24 There are some, though, that are just for
1 the Catholic Central family, they wouldn't
2 pertain. I'm not sure, is that the question
4 MEMBER KRIEGER: What is the intent
5 then of the second sign?
6 FATHER ELMER: The intent would be to
7 celebrate our achievements to the community
8 at large and also to announce events that
9 pertain to the community. And also for our
10 own people as well.
11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any update?
12 MR. BOULARD: I apologize. The
13 ordinance would allow at this entrance a,
14 basically a traffic control sign or a
15 directional sign of up to three square feet
16 and six feet in height located within the
17 setback area. But information naming or
18 describing the business which assume it's
19 for parking and driving information shall
20 occupy no more than 30 percent of the sign
21 area. So, this sign would not qualify. If
22 there was a smaller sign, for example, that
23 would say entrance Catholic Central High
24 School, something with a limited amount of
1 identification, basically for directional
2 purposes or people missing the entrance.
3 MS. KUDLA: More like in the form of a
4 street sign, if you're talking about a six
5 foot pole sign.
6 MEMBER IBE: Thank you so much. I
7 appreciate it.
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
9 questions or comments for the applicant?
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: For the City, I'm
12 The high school on Ten Mile and Novi Road --
13 I mean, Taft, I don't know, you probably
14 don't have that data. If the amount of
15 complaints from the residents regarding the
16 public high school?
17 MR. BOULARD: Your question is?
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Kids with running
19 track on the sidewalks or streets, kids
20 going through the subdivision?
21 MR. BOULARD: I'm not aware if there
22 are or are not complaints of that type in
23 that area. The police might know or may
24 have some reports, but I don't have that
2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
3 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chair?
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, Mr. Cassis?
5 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman, we are
6 really conflicted here and having problems.
7 I feel this in the air. Father, I would
8 like to see a different solution to your
9 dilemma. We seem to have a little bit of
10 hesitation here because we have some
11 objections from the neighbors. We see no
12 real -- you know, you come to the ZBA
13 because you have a certain problem or --
14 what is the?
15 MEMBER IBE: (Unintelligible).
16 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah, something that
17 is really having a problem with your
18 existence and so on and you need some
19 alleviation. I don't see the real
20 compelling problem here to put a large sign
21 like this. And this is a big sign. I mean,
22 we're talking about 48 square feet, maybe 4
23 feet by 12 feet on that -- is that right?
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I think it's 8
1 by 3 isn't it?
2 MR. BOULARD: Yes, this whole sign is
3 24 square feet and 54 inches high.
4 MEMBER CASSIS: Yeah. I don't see the
5 hardship here that is really very compelling
6 here. We want to seek a solution for you,
7 Father. We have been communicating. And
8 unless I am totally wrong here, I mean, my
9 colleagues can speak. I don't know whether
10 you would want to have a smaller sign,
11 directional sign or you want to have at it
12 again to go into the north entrance and do
13 something there. See, the problem is that
14 putting a sign on the south entrance is
15 going to accelerate and add more trips
16 because people will say, oh, this is the
17 entrance to Catholic Central. And once they
18 start developing that habit, it's going to
19 start increasing from the 10% you are
20 talking about to maybe 40% or 50% and,
21 therefore, aggravate the situation to the
22 next door neighbors.
23 FATHER ELMER: Knowing our people that
24 won't happen because they know where the
1 entrance to the school is and it's the north
3 MEMBER CASSIS: So, the thing is, we
4 have allowed schools to exist in residential
5 areas, this is our ordinance, so it creates
6 this problem situation where something like
7 this may arise. I'm just giving my little
8 bit of input here, not to try to obstruct
9 any progress towards something amicable for
10 you that you can live with and this Board
11 can live with. But what is the pleasure of
12 the Board?
13 FATHER ELMER: May I just say one
15 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes, Father. And you
16 know how much I have regard for you. It's
17 very tough to be going contrary to Father
18 Elmer. You know that.
19 FATHER ELMER: I understand. I am
20 just asking for the same. I believe that
21 Novi High School have the same reasons that
22 we would to have that second sign, the
23 moving sign as announcing events and
24 celebrating their achievements, and so
1 that's all I'm asking for is kind of equal
3 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Father.
4 FATHER ELMER: You're welcome.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I just have a
6 couple comments too. I tend to agree, it is
7 a difficult question. You have to meet a
8 standard by law for your variance to be
9 granted. A practical difficulty standard.
10 And the question becomes is your property
11 unique? Is it self created? Things like
12 that. To me what I guess is compelling, I
13 understand you want to advertise your
14 student achievements and upcoming events, I
15 think that's legitimate. Also, I think to
16 me your strongest argument is that the
17 entrance is 600 feet from the other
18 entrance. And you are right, there are
19 homes in front, for whatever reason they
20 remain there and you are far behind, it's
21 not visible from the street, your school and
22 so forth. You do have the one entrance at
23 the light and certainly that's your main
24 entrance. But if I had to weigh the
1 factors, I generally -- it would be
2 difficult, but I would tend to support your
3 request based on what you said tonight. So,
4 those are my comments.
5 Any other comments from the Board
6 members or any motions? And by way, Father,
7 just so you know, you understand you need
8 four of the five members tonight because we
9 only have five? I had mentioned at the
10 beginning you do have the option of moving
11 this to a different day if you choose, if
12 you want a full board or a different -- not
13 a different board, but with all seven
14 members present.
15 FATHER ELMER: I would have an
16 attorney here tonight too, but he couldn't
17 make it and he suggested that possibly under
18 circumstances like this that we ask that it
19 be tabled.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's totally
21 your choice. And I understand you made your
22 presentation. You would have to represent it
23 and they would have to re-advertise it, I
1 MS. MARTIN: If you state an exact
2 date we do not have to re-advertise.
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. I don't
4 know what the vote would be if we took a
5 vote right now if we would reject or
6 approve, but what is your pleasure?
7 FATHER ELMER: My pleasure would be to
8 table it.
9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Do we have any
10 indication whether or not we will have a
11 full board next month?
12 MS. MARTIN: As far as I know we will.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay.
14 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chair?
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes, Mr. Cassis?
16 MEMBER CASSIS: Tabling just like that
17 and not giving Father directions I think
18 would be counter-productive. So, maybe we
19 should give Father some kind of a hint as to
20 what could be an acceptable thing for an
21 entire Board next time. We want to go in
22 that direction, Father.
23 We did have difficulty with the north
24 entrance last time of the second sign.
1 Faced with this situation that you brought
2 before us, I would think you probably want
3 to consider, take another look at the north
4 entrance second sign. What is the pleasure
5 of the Board?
6 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: This is his
7 application not mine.
8 MEMBER CASSIS: No, no. I mean, to
9 give him some sort of direction.
10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You have made
11 your comments. If you want to make more
12 comments please do that. Or if anybody else
13 certainly want to make a comment then I am
14 sure they can. Mr. Boulard, do you want to
15 make a comment?
16 MR. BOULARD: If I may. If there was
17 a -- for a sign to be considered at the
18 north entrance it would have to be
19 re-advertised, basically a separate
20 application. One suggestion that I -- one
21 thing I could just throw out is, sometimes
22 in the past where there is concerns of the
23 surrounding property owners, the Board if
24 there is opportunity while it's being
1 tabled, the Board has made suggestions that
2 the parties get together and perhaps discuss
3 some acceptable or more acceptable
5 MEMBER CASSIS: I am sure that would
6 be another solution.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: That's certainly
8 something that you and your school and
9 faculty could potentially arrange.
10 FATHER ELMER: We certainly have gone
11 through this quite a bit, especially after
12 we were denied the north entrance. There
13 aren't many options as far as I can see that
14 we could come up with.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would tend to
16 agree. Multiple signs at one entrance, you
17 were denied that and now you have an
18 entrance with no signage.
19 FATHER ELMER: And I must say that it
20 looks much better in the second entrance
21 than it did when we had it up for the first.
22 It was crowded there.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I understand.
24 Your preference is to adjourn this meeting
1 to another month?
2 FATHER ELMER: Well, my feeling is
3 that, yes. If we need four votes, I'm not
4 sure that we would...
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Would
6 anybody like to make --
7 MS. KUDLA: As far as looking at the
8 north entrance sign, again, if we are going
9 to re-notice it for the exact same sign, in
10 the circumstance where you were already
11 denied a variance request, in order to look
12 at the exact same variance request again,
13 you have the applicant having to show that
14 there is some kind of changed circumstance.
15 So, keeping that in mind either the proposal
16 would have to be a different proposal or the
17 circumstance would have to be changed in
18 order to bring it back before this Board.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You understand
20 that, Father?
21 FATHER ELMER: Yes. And I don't see
22 any justification on our part to ask for it
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I mean, this is
1 just simply one sign proposal at the south
2 entrance, that's all we're going to consider
3 for adjournment.
4 FATHER ELMER: Yes.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
6 would like to make comments before we take a
7 motion? Ms. Krieger?
8 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, tabling in
9 regards of giving the opportunity for it to
10 have a full board, and then to have the
11 applicant and the homeowners association of
12 Island Lake or the parties maybe to
13 communicate with each other.
14 FATHER ELMER: Fine.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
17 MS. KUDLA: The only thing we would
18 want to add is a specific date that it's
19 being tabled to.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Right. When is
21 the February meeting?
22 MS. MARTIN: February 9th.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Would you like
24 the February 9th meeting date or a later
2 FATHER ELMER: No, I would prefer it
3 the sooner the better.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Can I get
5 a motion to table this matter until February
7 MEMBER IBE: Yes. Mr. Chair, may I?
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes.
9 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair. In
10 case number: 09-052, 27225 Wixom Road,
11 Catholic Central High School, I move that
12 based on the applicant's request that the
13 application be tabled to the February 9th,
14 2010 meeting.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Do I hear a
17 MEMBER CASSIS: Second.
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
19 discussion? If you can take the roll,
21 MS. MARTIN: Can I ask one question?
22 Is it coming back as submitted now?
23 MEMBER IBE: Correct.
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's the same
2 MS. MARTIN: Okay.
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is that correct
4 for the motion maker?
5 MEMBER IBE: Yes, Mr. Chairman. Thank
7 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
8 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
9 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
10 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
13 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
14 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
15 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam?
16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes. You are
17 adjourned until February 9th, and we will
18 see you then.
19 FATHER ELMER: Thank you very much.
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Next case, case
21 number: 09-053 for 24099 Wintergreen
22 Circle, Giggle Gang. Nicole Karr of Giggle
23 Gang is requesting three variances to permit
24 the licensing of a group day care home
1 accommodating six to twelve children at her
2 residence located at 24099 Wintergreen
3 Circle. The petitioner is requesting waiver
4 of the required fenced play area, required
5 lot size and waiver of the request for
6 frontage on a major thoroughfare or section
7 line collector. The property is zoned R-1
8 and is located south of Ten Mile Road
9 between Beck and Taft Road.
10 Will the applicant please come
12 Please state your name and address.
13 MS. KARR: Hello, I'm Nicole Karr.
14 And my address is 24099 Wintergreen Circle.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you can raise
16 your right hand and you have to be sworn in,
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
19 09-053 on 24099 Wintergreen Circle-Giggle
20 Gang, LLC, do you swear to tell the truth in
21 this case?
22 MS. KARR: Yes.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Go ahead, you
24 may proceed.
1 MS. KARR: I currently run a day care
2 in my home. I have lived in Wintergreen
3 Park for 12 years and have run the day care
4 for those 12 years. I have been licensed
5 for six children. And I currently would
6 like to move my license from six children
7 which is a family license to a group license
8 which is carrying up to 12 children. My
9 intentions are to care for approximately
10 eight children with two assistants. And in
11 order to do that I need to request variances
12 from you, the three variances.
13 Well, I guess I can explain my
15 I operate the day care three days a week.
16 Monday, Tuesday, Thursday from 7:30 to 5:30.
17 I have been doing it for 12 years and we
18 have a great little program with a little
19 bit of a structure. Activity is circle
20 time, nap time. And everybody is very
21 friendly, kind of a close knit little
23 I do need to seek three
24 variances. One is I do not have a fence
1 around my yard and that is mainly because my
2 neighborhood does not allow it. And
3 licensing does not require it. We have been
4 doing the daycare without it and we play in
5 the backyard and we have quite a bit of
6 landscape along the perimeter of our yard,
7 that's just how we've operated.
8 The next variance is my lot size is
9 only, I guess here it says approximately .34
10 acres rather than a half acre. So for
11 obvious reasons I need to ask for a variance
12 for that because I can't change that.
13 And the last variance is that my home
14 does not abut a major thoroway. My house,
15 my neighborhood is right off of Ten Mile
16 Road and my house is very easy to access.
17 We are about four houses in off of Ten Mile
18 Road in Wintergreen Park, so it's close to
19 Ten Mile, but not right on Ten Mile. So,
20 those are the variances I am requesting.
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you,
23 I'll ask the secretary to see if there is
24 any correspondence.
1 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
2 09-053, 31 notices were mailed. One
3 returned. No responses.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up
5 for public remarks on this particular case.
6 Is there anybody that would like to make any
7 comments on this case?
8 (No response.)
9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none,
10 I'll close the public remarks and ask the
11 City if they have any comments or issues?
12 MR. BOULARD: Just as a -- for our
13 information a group day care has a special
14 land use in this zoning district and the
15 special land use permit was granted by the
16 Planing Commission at a previous meeting
17 subject to the variances that are before
18 this Board. Kristen Kapelanski is here from
19 the Planing Commission. If you have any
20 questions I would defer to her.
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If we can have
22 Kristen come up and explain the position of
23 the City.
24 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman, while
1 she is coming up. I did hear this case on
2 the Planning Commission side. Can I still
3 hear it here?
4 MS. KUDLA: You should not hear it.
5 Right now we need to have a motion to
6 recuse you from this vote.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: So, can I have a
8 motion to recuse Mr. Cassis?
9 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair -- I'm sorry,
10 go ahead.
11 MEMBER SKELCY: Will we still have a
12 quorum if he is recused?
13 MS. KUDLA: We don't have a use
14 variance, so we still have four votes.
15 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay.
16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Mr. Ibe, would
17 you like to make a motion?
18 MEMBER IBE: Yes, Mr. Chair. I'll
19 move that Mr. Cassis be recused from case
20 number: 09-053.
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Second?
22 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor?
24 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
2 Seeing none, Mr. Cassis, you are excused and
3 you can exit, please.
4 MEMBER CASSIS: Okay.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'm sorry,
7 MS. KAPELANSKI: As Mr. Boulard
8 mentioned, this is a special land use in the
9 R-1 District. It did appear before the
10 Planing Commission. The R-1 District has
11 several conditions listed that are required
12 in order for a special land use permit to be
13 granted. Three of those conditions have not
14 been met by the applicant. One that was
15 mentioned was the fence. Staff does not
16 have any concerns related to the lack of a
17 fence. The applicant did mention they do
18 have significant landscape along the rear of
19 the yard. If I can zoom in.
20 The applicant has also agreed to put
21 in some additional landscaping in the side
22 yard for screening purposes. There are
23 evergreens here along the back of the rear
24 yard and they have agreed to landscape
1 minimal amounts in the side yard. So, the
2 staff does not have any issue with that.
3 As far as the size of the property,
4 the required half acre, this property is
5 approximately .34 acres. Considering the
6 fact the applicant is only proposing eight
7 children, staff doesn't have any concerns
8 regarding the amount of space for the
9 children to play on the outside.
10 Lastly, the condition regarding the
11 property abutting a major thoroughfare or
12 section line collector road, as the
13 applicant mentioned, they are quite close to
14 Ten Mile Road. You see Ten Mile Road right
15 up here. They are the fourth house in. I
16 think the intent of the ordinance with
17 regards to abutting a major thoroughfare or
18 section line collector road was to make sure
19 that you didn't have large amounts of
20 traffic winding through the neighborhood.
21 Given the fact that they're the fourth house
22 in, staff doesn't have any concerns related
23 to traffic as well.
24 I would be happy to answer any
2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would think a
3 major thoroughfare would be like you are on
4 the other side of Ten Mile or adjacent to
5 Ten Mile, that would be a major
6 thoroughfare. Or would the main entrance to
7 the subdivision be considered a
9 MS. KAPELANSKI: The ordinance reads
10 that you either have to have access off a
11 major thoroughfare which I think is what you
12 are referring to, or you have to abut it.
13 So, for example, the houses right here where
14 the rear yard backs up to Ten Mile we still
15 consider it abutting to Ten Mile even though
16 the entrance is off a local collector
17 street. And the ordinance would permit the
18 entrance to be off of a local street.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Any other
20 questions for you? Ms. Krieger?
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. How is this
22 different than the case regarding the church
23 and having a fence?
24 MS. KAPELANSKI: It's very similar.
1 When you have a day care use, there does
2 have to be a fenced in area. Generally the
3 zoning ordinance require a fenced in area,
4 especially with the church day care use,
5 that was a significant more number of
6 children. The fenced in area is required by
7 the State when you get above twelve
8 children. So, the zoning ordinance tries to
9 be complimentary to the State requirements.
10 In this case it doesn't require a fenced in
11 area because it's in a home and it's only
12 twelve children.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
14 questions? Okay, thank you. Ma'am, if you
15 can come forward.
16 Did the City have any other questions
17 or issues?
18 MS. KUDLA: We have none.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, then I'll
20 open it up for the Board for discussion.
21 And actually before I do that, you
22 understand that since we have four members
23 left you have to have a unanimous vote? And
24 you are okay with that?
1 MS. KARR: Okay, yes.
2 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Go ahead,
3 Ms. Skelcy.
4 MEMBER SKELCY: What are the ages of
5 the children that you plan to have at your
7 MS. KARR: Three months to age five,
8 until kindergarten.
9 MEMBER SKELCY: And what do you do to
10 make sure that the children don't run out
11 into the front yard and into the street
12 since there is no fence?
13 MS. KARR: We play in the backyard and
14 in 12 years I have never had any children
15 run away from me. Usually there is probably
16 at least two or three that are in strollers
17 or bouncy seats in the backyard with us and
18 we have two baby seats on our swing set and
19 we have a playhouse and a play structure and
20 teeter-totter and they just all stay right
21 in the backyard with us.
22 And as Kristen explained, our
23 backyard is all pines and then to get to the
24 front of our house you either have to go,
1 like from our play area you have to go
2 through, one side of our house it's quite a
3 long distance up the steps, and the other
4 side is a big hill, so we are pretty much
5 enclosed in between landscaping and the hill
6 and the steps. And the kids are little. I
7 mean, I guess little kids can be pretty
9 MEMBER SKELCY: They can.
10 MS. KARR: And for whatever reason the
11 State licensing does not require fences
12 unless you have a bigger day care center
13 with over 12 children.
14 MEMBER SKELCY: And you are certain
15 that you only going to have eight at any one
17 MS. KARR: Well, less than 12. The
18 reason for me switching from a family
19 license to a group license is because I have
20 six children currently. But my issue comes
21 when I have a two or three-year-old and then
22 the mother has a baby and I don't have room
23 to take the infant because I already have
24 six children. I have a few moms that are
1 pregnant and expecting babies and I want to
2 be able to care for those babies. I already
3 have assistants that are willing to work
4 with me. I do think eight or nine would be
5 perfect for my home. I am not looking to do
6 a big day care. And I'm only three days a
8 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay, thank you.
9 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
10 questions? Mr. Ibe?
11 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
12 How many assistants do you currently have?
13 MS. KARR: Definitely one has to work
14 with me at all times and there will be two
15 girls. One will be with me all times
16 probably alternating, one main assistant,
17 and then another one as a backup in case one
18 of us cannot be available. But they have to
19 be certified and go through clearance,
20 background checks. There is a big list with
21 State licensing for myself and assistant
23 MEMBER IBE: So, is it fair to say
24 that at all times there will be at least two
1 of you?
2 MS. KARR: There has to be. If there
3 are more than six kids there has to be two
5 MEMBER IBE: And when the kids our
6 outside what does the State licensing
7 require? How many adult supervision per
8 children are out there?
9 MS. KARR: There has to be both of us
10 outside if there is more than six. But like
11 in the winter if one of us would like to
12 take a group of them outside and one of us
13 would like to stay inside with the infants,
14 we can do that and split the group evenly.
15 Like four go outside with one adult and four
16 stay inside with the younger ones we can do
17 that too.
18 MEMBER IBE: So, as long as you have
19 less than six, one adult?
20 MS. KARR: Um-hum.
21 MEMBER IBE: So, if it is above six
22 you have to have two adults?
23 MS. KARR: Yes. I'm under six with one
24 adult and that's how I have been running the
1 day care for all these years. But like I
2 said, there are instances where I would like
3 to be able to go over six, and I have an
4 assistant that's more than willing to work
5 with me at all times.
6 MEMBER IBE: What about your
7 neighbors, do they have any problems with
8 any number of --
9 MS. KARR: No.
10 MEMBER IBE: Are they aware that you
11 are going to be increasing the --
12 MS. KARR: Yes, they have all received
13 letters from the City, at least for the
14 first meeting that I had, and I'm not sure
15 about this meeting, but all of them received
16 notices and were very supportive to me. In
17 fact, many of the neighbors have come to my
18 day care in the past over the years. And
19 the neighbors on both sides, their kids are
20 often playing with us and visiting with us
21 during the day care and they are very
22 supportive. And we are very considerate too
23 of our neighbors. We are very, very
24 conscious of that. And in the evenings when
1 the day care is all over we put everything
3 Our kids are little, they are not
4 super loud. They are not any louder than
5 our neighbor boys playing hockey with all of
6 their friends, so we try to be very
7 considerate with the neighbors.
8 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. Thank you,
9 Mr. Chair.
10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
11 questions? Yes, Ms. Krieger?
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, for the
13 assistants they fill out the State
14 requirements and they give them to you or
15 you all give to the State like infant CPR?
16 MS. KARR: They have to have their CPR
17 and their first aid and there is a lot of
18 training, infant sleep training. I have to
19 have records on file for me when my
20 licensing agent comes to my house, but the
21 files all have to be turned into the State.
22 And then there are also, they have to be
23 fingerprinted and have a TB test and medical
24 clearance from the doctors.
1 They are pretty strict on all of
2 those type of records for myself and for any
3 assistants that are working with me.
4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do the neighbors,
5 does anybody have a dog that's ever come
6 running into your yard?
7 MS. KARR: Our neighbor does have a
8 dog, but it's an invisible fence. They do
9 have an invisible fence. We have never had
10 any problems with the dog.
11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay, thank you.
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Actually you
13 have answered all my questions, ma'am, and I
14 have no problem supporting it. I usually
15 have more than six kids at my house at any
16 time, so with all my kids and their friends,
17 so I think it's a great idea and I have no
18 problem with it.
19 Any other questions or concerns? Or
20 can I hear a motion? Ms. Skelcy?
21 MEMBER SKELCY: In the case of 09-053,
22 24099 Wintergreen Circle, the Giggle Gang, I
23 propose that we approve the three variances
24 requested which is the waiver of a fenced in
1 play area. The waiver of the minimum parcel
2 size. A waiver of the fact that it does not
3 abut a major thoroughfare. And I recommend
4 it because the setback, frontage, height,
5 bulk, density requirements will unreasonably
6 prevent the use of the property for the
7 permitted purpose. The variance will
8 provide substantial justice to the
9 petitioner and surrounding property owners
10 in the zoning district.
11 There are unique circumstances at the
12 property. The problem is not self created.
13 There is adequate light and air provided to
14 adjacent properties. There is no increase
15 of fire danger or public safety. Property
16 values will not be diminished within the
17 surrounding area. And the spirit of the
18 zoning ordinance is observed.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I would just
20 have one friendly amendment if we can agree
21 to grant these variances so long as this
22 petitioner owns the home and is running this
23 day care. If that's acceptable?
24 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
2 question? Any second?
3 MEMBER IBE: Yes, I'll second that.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You can call the
5 roll, Ms. Martin.
6 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
7 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
8 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
10 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
11 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
12 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam?
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes.
14 Congratulations, ma'am.
15 MS. KARR: Thank you.
16 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Good luck to
17 you. Mr. Cassis, you are welcomed back in.
18 For the next case, case number:
19 09-054, 26054 Novi Road Bagger Dave's. The
20 petitioner is requesting a revised variance
21 to allow installation of one additional 48
22 square foot wall sign on the west elevation
23 of the multi tenant building located at
24 26054 Novi Road for Bagger Dave's. The
1 property is zoned TC and located north of
2 Grand River and east of Novi Road.
3 Are you the petitioner?
4 MR. KRIEGER: I am.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: State your name
6 and address, please.
7 MR. KRIEGER: My name is Jason Krieger
8 with Krieger Associates. The address is
9 1412 East Eleven Mile Royal Oak, Michigan
11 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: If you could
12 raise your hand and be sworn in if you're
13 not an attorney.
14 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
15 09-054, 26054 Novi Road for Bagger Dave's do
16 you swear to tell the truth in this case?
17 MR. KRIEGER: I do.
18 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Go ahead and
19 proceed, please.
20 MR. KRIEGER: We were here a month or
21 so ago, a few months ago and we were
22 previously granted a variance for a sign on
23 Novi Road. Where originally a sign was not
24 allowed we were given that variance for a 7
1 foot diameter sign which is 38.4 square
2 feet. After the variance was granted Bagger
3 Dave's changed their menu to include
4 breakfast. So, that made us go back and
5 say, okay, we need to advertise breakfast in
6 this restaurant or else it will be for
8 So, we're before you looking for a
9 revised variance and we have a proposal
10 here. And our proposal we feel is thought
11 out and just. The initial variance was for
12 38.4 square feet and what we are proposing
13 is a round sign that is 30.7 with a
14 rectangular serving breakfast sign below
15 which is 7.3. Together those will be 38
16 square feet which would be less than the
17 previous variance. But because of the
18 complex shape we have to calculate the
19 square footage like a rectangle whereas
20 before we had the diameter, now we have to
21 calculate the entire rectangle, the entire
22 shape. Keeping in mind that up to 10 square
23 feet would be brick. That would be the area
24 right here that is not signage at all.
1 So, that's our proposal. We do have
2 the mock-up on the building. To me it
3 looks, the circle is smaller, but I still
4 think that it's visually appealing. It's
5 legible which is important. The letters
6 serving breakfast are really only about
7 eight to nine inches tall, so there is
8 concern about drivers going by, so we made
9 sure that we thought carefully about it. We
10 feel we made the sign small as we can.
11 Again, we're below the previous variance but
12 at the same time it's lighter and it works
13 for the restaurant.
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you.
15 Any correspondence from the Secretary?
16 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number:
17 09-054, 77 notices were mailed. Five
18 returned. No responses.
19 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I'll open it up
20 for public remarks. At this time if there
21 is anybody from the public that would like
22 to make a comment on this specific case?
23 (No response.)
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Seeing none,
1 we'll close the public remark section and
2 ask any questions of the City if they have
4 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. No
5 additional comments beyond what are in the
6 staff report. I would be happy to answer
7 any questions.
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: I will open it
9 up for the Board for any questions. While
10 you all are thinking I will make my
11 comments. First of all, I have no problem
12 with this. I understand that this is a
13 change in I presume corporate strategy in
14 terms of serving breakfast and so forth. I
15 think this still fits within the spirit of
16 what we previously granted, so I really have
17 no problem with this.
18 Any other questions or comments? Ms.
20 MEMBER KRIEGER: I drove by and I like
21 the new sign. That it's proportional with
22 the building and with the neighbors. And it
23 also reminds me of the Novi sign, the circle
24 inside the square. And I was wondering,
1 though, if there was an additional sign, if
2 you wanted one on the west elevation, that
3 you also wanted one on the east? Or do you
4 not on that side?
5 MR. KRIEGER: East would be the
6 parking lot side, correct?
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Correct.
8 MR. KRIEGER: There is one on the
9 parking lot side. I don't know if it's up
10 yet, but it will comply with the ordinance,
11 so we're not seeking a variance for that.
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Ms. Skelcy?
14 MEMBER SKELCY: What are you going to
15 do if you stop serving breakfast?
16 MR. KRIEGER: Ask the owner, he is
17 right here. We will probably take it down.
18 I think it's technically two separate signs.
19 MEMBER SKELCY: Okay. I just know
20 about that, I remember years ago Wendy's was
21 doing breakfast and then stopping.
22 MR. ANSLEY: Well, yeah --
23 MEMBER GHANNAM: Hold on, sir, if you
24 are going to speak you need to be sworn by
1 our secretary if you are not an attorney.
2 MR. ANSLEY: My name is Michael
3 Ansley, 21751 West Eleven Mile Road, Suite
4 208, Southfield, Michigan.
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, in case number:
6 09-054 for 26054 Novi Road, Bagger Dave's,
7 do you swear to tell the truth?
8 MR. ANSLEY: Yes.
9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.
10 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Proceed.
11 MR. ANSLEY: We don't have any plans
12 to stop serving breakfast. It's a very
13 unique concept that we're coming up with.
14 We're a full service restaurant so it's not
15 quite the same as Wendy's. But if we did I
16 guess we would have to come up with
17 something else to go into the serving
18 breakfast square. Something that would
19 represent our menu. But we have no plans.
20 Actually it's taken us about a year to
21 come up with this menu. We had to go back
22 to Simon Properties and give up our
23 exclusive on the property to allow us to
24 serve breakfast, which has been rather
1 interesting, but they did sign off on it.
2 It's going to be build your own
3 breakfast sandwich which we don't know that
4 anybody allows you to do that. So, you can
5 come in and pick from a variety of items and
6 build your own sandwich. We are using a lot
7 of Michigan products, Michigan coffees,
8 premium coffees. We're not going to do the
9 lattes and things like that, but it's
10 similar to the Einstein format where you go
11 in and there will be flavors and you go
12 serve it yourself as far as the coffee goes.
13 But, yeah, we're real excited about
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Anybody else
16 have any questions? Mr. Cassis?
17 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. Is this -- to
18 our City attorney, is this one sign or two
20 MS. KUDLA: It would depend how they
21 are attaching it. But the intent is for it
22 to be one sign.
23 It was measured by the Community Development
24 Department as one sign.
1 MEMBER CASSIS: I'm not having
2 problems with the measurement. I am having
3 problems with two individual signs
5 MS. KUDLA: That was their proposal.
6 There is a way they do a size determination
7 and they are attaching it as one single
8 sign. I suppose if you --
9 MEMBER CASSIS: I mean, I would
10 probably be okay and I would vote for two
11 signs, but, I mean, for the sake of
12 consideration of this application it would
13 seem to me that these are two signs, not
14 just one sign.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Let me ask you a
16 question. Are these two pieces connected?
17 MR. KRIEGER: I think that technically
18 they are. Actually when they go up there
19 are connected, it's not two individual
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: It's an
22 illuminated sign, right?
23 MR. KRIEGER: It's a back lit
24 illuminated sign.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Both of them are
2 provided or supplied by the same power
3 source, I presume?
4 MR. KRIEGER: Correct.
5 MEMBER CASSIS: Maybe my eyes aren't
6 serving me. I don't know.
7 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: When it's
8 installed it's installed in one piece, is it
10 MR. KRIEGER: I believe so, yes. Our
11 understanding is that it's one sign. It's
12 not two separate signs.
13 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay. Mr.
15 MR. BOULARD: Typically where signs
16 are in this close proximity, the Community
17 Development Department and our folks that
18 look at these would consider this one sign.
19 It's actually worse for the applicant
20 because the space in between. The other way
21 to think of it is if we have a sign that's
22 separate letters that is this far apart that
23 are attached, we would draw a box around all
24 of them. So, in a sense I think it would be
1 consistent with past practice since it's one
2 sign and it's actually worse for the
3 applicant in terms of the size.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
6 MEMBER CASSIS: No. Our Chairman here
7 seems to go along with it, fine. I mean, I
8 have no objection. I would vote for this
9 thing. My problem was considering that's
10 one sign when there are two unattached
11 things. That's all. But if you say it's
12 past practice.
13 MS. KUDLA: For the intent for it to
14 be one sign in past practice, in my opinion,
15 from a legal opinion that's fine to consider
16 it as one single sign.
17 MEMBER CASSIS: Fine. I'm okay with
19 MS. KUDLA: From a practical
20 perspective the bottom sign by itself
21 wouldn't make any sense.
22 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Mr.
24 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other
1 questions or discussion? Then I'll wait for
2 a motion. Someone have a motion, please?
3 MEMBER IBE: Mr. Chair, I think I will
4 go ahead.
5 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Thank you, Mr.
7 MEMBER IBE: Thank you. Mr. Chair, in
8 case number: 09-054 for 26054 Novi Road,
9 Bagger Dave's, I move that we grant the
10 petitioner's request for a revised variance
11 to allow the installation of one additional
12 48 square foot wall sign on the west
13 elevation of the multi tenant building
14 located at 26054 Novi Road for the reasons
15 that the request is based on circumstances
16 or features that are exceptional and unique
17 to the property and do not result from
18 conditions that exist generally in the City.
19 And that the problem is not self created.
20 And that failure to grant relief will
21 unreasonably prevent or limit the use of the
22 property and will result in substantially
23 more than a mere inconvenience to achieve a
24 higher economic financial return.
1 That the grant of relief will not
2 result in the use of structure that is
3 incompatible with or unreasonably interferes
4 with adjacent or surrounding properties. And
5 that granting this request is consistent
6 with the spirit of the ordinance.
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any further
9 discussion? Ms. Martin, can you call the
11 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?
12 MEMBER IBE: Yes.
13 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?
14 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.
15 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?
16 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
17 MS. MARTIN: Member Skelcy?
18 MEMBER SKELCY: Yes.
19 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Ghannam?
20 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yes.
22 MR. KRIEGER: Thank you.
23 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Any other issues
24 we need to cover before we move to adjourn?
1 MS. KUDLA: Nothing else on the
3 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Okay, can I hear
4 a motion to adjourn?
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Before that, for
6 other matters, if there are any other public
8 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Is there any
9 other public -- well, wait.
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Public audience
12 MEMBER SKELCY: I believe we did that
13 at the beginning.
14 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: Yeah, we opened
15 up public remarks --
16 MEMBER KRIEGER: A complimentary one
17 at the end then like at the Council meeting?
18 If the people in the audience if there is
19 anybody that had any comments before we
21 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: You mean on
22 matters outside of what we already went
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
1 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: We usually don't
2 do that, do we?
3 MS. KUDLA: No.
4 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: We have done
5 that at the beginning, open it up to public
6 remarks unrelated, and then each case have
7 their own public remarks section. So, I
8 will go ahead and conclude. Is there any --
9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Motion to adjourn
11 MEMBER SKELCY: Second.
12 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All in favor say
14 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
15 CHAIRPERSON GHANNAM: All opposed?
16 Seeing none, the meeting is adjourned.
17 (The meeting was adjourned at
18 8:33 p.m.)
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
5 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify
6 that I have recorded stenographically the
7 proceedings had and testimony taken in the
8 above-entitled matter at the time and place
9 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further
10 certify that the foregoing transcript,
11 consisting of (80) typewritten pages, is a
12 true and correct transcript of my said
13 stenographic notes.
20 Mona L. Talton,
21 Certified Shorthand Reporter
24 January 15, 2010