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REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
CITY OF NOVI
TUESDAY, October 13, 2009

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, October 13, 2009.

BOARD MEMBERS
Mav Sanghvi, Chairperson
Wayne Wrobel, Vice-Chairperson
Gerald Bauer
Victor Cassis
David Ghannam
Rickie Ibe
Linda Krieger

ALSO PRESENT:
Elizabeth Kudla, City Attorney
Charles Boulard, Building Official
Melinda Martin, Senior Customer Service Representative

REPORTED BY:
Mona L. Talton, Certified Shorthand Reporter.

1 Novi, Michigan

2 Tuesday, October 13, 2009

3 7:00 p.m.

4 - - - - - -

5 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Good evening. I

6 would like to call to order the October 13,

7 2009 meeting of the Zoning Board of Appeals

8 for City of Novi.

9 Mr. Wrobel, would you kindly lead us

10 in the pledge of allegiance.

11 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to

12 the flag of the United States of America and

13 to the republic for which it stands, one

14 nation under God indivisible with liberty

15 and justice for all.

16 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Ms.

17 Martin, will you please call the roll.

18 MS. MARTIN: Member Bauer?

19 MEMBER BAUER: Present.

20 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Sanghvi?

21 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Here.

22 MS. MARTIN: Member Wrobel?

23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Here.

24 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?

 

4

1 MEMBER GHANNAM: Here.

2 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?

3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here.

4 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?

5 MEMBER IBE: Present.

6 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?

7 MEMBER CASSIS: Here.

8 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That's you.

9 MEMBER CASSIS: I said here.

10 MS. MARTIN: Oh, okay, I'm sorry. I

11 didn't hear you.

12 And Member Skelcy will be absent

13 tonight.

14 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you, Ms.

15 Martin. We do have a quorum and the meeting

16 is now in session.

17 I would like to go over the rules of

18 conduct. Just a friendly reminder to please

19 turn off all your cell phones and pagers.

20 Individual applicants may take up to five

21 minutes and groups may take up to ten

22 minutes to address the Board.

23 Zoning Board of Appeals is a hearing

24 board empowered by the Novi City Charter to

 

5

1 hear appeals seeking variances from the

2 application of the Novi Zoning Ordinances.

3 It takes a vote of at least four members to

4 approve a variance, and a vote of the

5 majority of the members present to deny a

6 variance. Tonight we have a full Board so

7 all decisions made will be final.

8 Let's look at agenda. Are there any

9 changes to the agenda?

10 MS. MARTIN: No, there is not.

11 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: May I have a

12 motion to accept the agenda as presented?

13 MEMBER BAUER: So moved.

14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Second.

15 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. All

16 those in favor of accepting the agenda

17 please signify by saying aye?

18 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.

19 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All opposed same

20 sign. Very good. Now we have an agenda.

21 We do have minutes also. Are there

22 any changes, additions, deletions, omissions

23 to the minutes? Seeing none, I would

24 entertain a motion to approve the minutes.

 

6

1 MEMBER BAUER: Move to approve the

2 minutes of September.

3 MEMBER IBE: Second.

4 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All those in

5 favor please say aye?

6 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.

7 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All those

8 opposed same sign.

9 Thank you. At this point the meeting

10 is open for public remark section. Anybody

11 in the audience may address the Board

12 regarding any subject other than the items

13 on the agenda.

14 (No response.)

15 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Seeing none,

16 we'll close the public remarks section, and

17 move on to our first case on the agenda.

18 Is the Applicant here? Will you

19 please come forward, identify yourself.

20 Give your name and address, and if you are

21 not an attorney please be sworn in by our

22 Secretary.

23 MR. MITSEFF: I am not an attorney.

24 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise your

 

7

1 right hand. Do you swear or affirm to tell

2 the truth regarding case: 09-038?

3 MR. MITSEFF: Yes.

4 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.

5 MR. MITSEFF (ph): My name is Joseph

6 Mitseff. My address is 2541 Commerce in

7 Commerce Township, and I am here on behalf

8 of Singh Management for the item. Mike Kahn

9 is the one who sent in this request for the

10 two-year extension of the real estate sign

11 for Main Street Phase II. He could not be

12 here today so I was asked to come forward.

13 The request for the real estate sign

14 which is in the packet is basically -- is a

15 need base request. The property, Phase II,

16 has not surpassed 80% occupancy this entire

17 year. It's been at -- obviously you all

18 know as Mike says in his letter, it's very

19 tough, a very tough market. We continue to

20 have a slow down in international traffic

21 which has been one of the lifelines for Main

22 Street Village in the past. There is common

23 misconception for many of Singh properties,

24 especially Main Street Village that it is a

 

8

1 condominium community. And to have some

2 sort of sign present on the property that

3 identifies it has apartments or townhomes is

4 very helpful.

5 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That's it?

6 MR. MITSEFF: That's all I have.

7 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Just to remind

8 the people at home, we are talking about

9 case number: 09-038 at 25300 Constitution in

10 Main Street Village. The Petitioner is

11 requesting an extension to the variance of

12 ZBA08-034 to allow the continued placement

13 of the existing real estate sign located

14 south of Potomac Drive in Main Street

15 Village.

16 Is there anybody in the audience who

17 would like to address the Board regarding

18 this case?

19 (No response.)

20 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Seeing none,

21 we'll close the public remark section. And

22 Mr. Boulard?

23 MR. BOULARD: I have nothing to add

24 beyond the comments in your packet, with the

 

9

1 exception of noting that the entrance to the

2 development is quite a ways off of Grand

3 River and off of Novi Road.

4 And then lastly, one question. I

5 understand this is a leasing community and,

6 so, there is always going to be vacancies,

7 and I guess my concern is there is repeated

8 extensions and variances and so on. Is

9 there an end date in sight?

10 MR. MITSEFF: Typically if we can get

11 to a sustained occupancy of 90% and try to

12 maintain that occupancy, I would say there

13 would no longer be a need. We have not

14 achieved that type of occupancy at that

15 property.

16 MR. BOULARD: Nothing else.

17 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Mr.

18 Secretary, do we have any correspondence

19 regarding this?

20 MEMBER BAUER: No, we don't. We have

21 22 mailed notices. Three returns and no

22 response.

23 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good. Then

24 I will open this up to the Board for

 

10

1 discussion.

2 You know, the sign has been around for

3 quite a few years and have had a few

4 previous extensions. And sometimes I wonder

5 whether it is effective to have your other

6 sign at all. Does it do anything for you,

7 the one sign on Main?

8 MR. MITSEFF: Sure it does. Like I

9 said, people who do visit the downtown area,

10 the Post Bar, they do see that sign. And

11 also like I said, when people drive into the

12 community, and it is seen once you drive

13 into the community rather than being outside

14 of the community, you are immediately hit

15 with it that they are apartments or they are

16 townhomes. They are not condominiums.

17 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Yes,

18 Mr. Cassis?

19 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you, Mr.

20 Chairman. You know, in the letter that the

21 Petitioner has sent us, he concludes that,

22 "Unfortunately now that the auto industry is

23 downsizing, a significant amount of the

24 transferee market has dried up further

 

11

1 aggravating the leasing and marketing

2 efforts. The occupancy rates have fallen

3 over the past year."

4 Needless to say, this has been going

5 on for quite a while and it's all over.

6 It's taking place all over our town, all

7 over the state. But if we do not allow this

8 Petitioner to put that sign in the area,

9 what's the alternative? The alternative is

10 that he cannot lease the spaces and,

11 therefore, we have a worse situation in our

12 city. Now, I know our -- Mr. Boulard there

13 says, you know, you keep having extensions.

14 Well, economic conditions in this state and

15 in this city have been having extensions,

16 extensions. So, Mr. Chairman, due to that

17 really chronic situation that we are

18 experiencing in this state and in our

19 community, I would be voting for this.

20 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

21 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Yes,

22 Mr. Bauer?

23 MEMBER BAUER: What's your percentage

24 now of occupancy?

 

12

1 MR. MITSEFF: Phase II is about 78%.

2 Phase I is slightly above that, 81%.

3 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.

4 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Wrobel?

5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Thank you,

6 Mr. Chair. This is very similar to the

7 request that Mr. Kahn came before us for the

8 senior housing at the Twelve Oaks Mall.

9 Multiple times with extensions because the

10 occupancy rate is not at the desired level.

11 I understand the market and I know you need

12 to get it out there. But at that time we

13 gave him a suggestion in that case, and I

14 will give you the same suggestion this time.

15 Why don't you try to incorporate this

16 information for leasing on your monument

17 sign out front. That would eliminate the

18 need for this sign in the future. I would

19 seriously like you to consider that. I

20 could go along with an extension this time,

21 but next time this -- you know, we have four

22 already, this would be the fifth extension.

23 And as was mentioned, when does extension

24 become a permanent sign basis?

 

13

1 MR. MITSEFF: Certainly. And I

2 understand that and I was here last time

3 when Mr. Kahn was talking about Walden at

4 Twelve Oaks. And I do remember those

5 remarks, and they didn't fall on death ears.

6 We are talking about -- obviously there is a

7 cost that goes into that kind of thing, but

8 we are trying to come up with ways to better

9 identify our communities as rental

10 communities within our monument sign.

11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Okay.

12 That's all, Mr. Chair.

13 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

14 Yes, Mr. Ghannam?

15 MEMBER GHANNAM: I also have an issue

16 with the timing and the multiple requests.

17 However, I would be willing to grant an

18 extension, but you mentioned two years in

19 your presentation. I personally would not

20 go along with that. I would consider a

21 one-year extension just like you received in

22 the past.

23 MR. MITSEFF: Okay.

24 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good. Do I

 

14

1 entertain a motion from somebody? Go ahead.

2 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will go ahead and

3 make a motion, Mr. Chair. In case number:

4 09-038 for 25300 Constitution, I would move

5 to approve the sign as requested for a

6 period of one year. Although it wasn't

7 mentioned in the presentation, we did

8 receive information in the packet showing

9 that this is a little bit of unusual

10 circumstances in terms of positioning of the

11 sign as well as the property. So,

12 therefore, it's based on circumstances of

13 features that are exceptional and unique to

14 the property. The failure to grant relief

15 would unreasonably prevent or limit the use

16 of the property, and will result in

17 substantially more than a mere

18 inconvenience. And that the grant of relief

19 will not result in the use of a structure

20 that is incompatible with or unreasonably

21 interferes with adjacent properties.

22 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

23 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: The motion has

24 been made and seconded. Do I see any

 

15

1 further discussion? Seeing none, Ms.

2 Martin, will you please call the roll.

3 MS. MARTIN: Member Bauer?

4 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.

5 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?

6 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.

7 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?

8 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.

9 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?

10 MEMBER IBE: Yes.

11 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?

12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.

13 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Sanghvi?

14 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes.

15 MS. MARTIN: Member Wrobel?

16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Yes.

17 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

18 MR. MITSEFF: Thank you.

19 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good.

20 Moving on to the next case, case number:

21 09-039, 26050 Novi Road, Novi Town Center.

22 The Petitioner is requesting a variance to

23 allow installation of one additional 58

24 square foot wall sign on the east elevation

 

16

1 of the multi tenant building located at

2 26050 Novi Road for AT&T. The property is

3 zoned TC and located north of Grand River

4 and east of Novi Road.

5 Is the petitioner here? Would you

6 please come forward and -- yes, Mr. Wrobel?

7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Mr. Chair, I

8 will put this out to my fellow Board

9 members. I am an employee of AT&T and if

10 you desire I will recuse myself from this

11 case.

12 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: As far as I am

13 concerned AT&T has hundreds of employees and

14 I don't think this is going to make any

15 difference in your decision-making process,

16 but I will leave it to the rest of the

17 Board.

18 MS. KUDLA: I would say a motion to

19 recuse is in order.

20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.

21 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will move to have

22 Member Wrobel recused.

23 MEMBER IBE: I will second.

24 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All those in

 

17

1 favor say aye?

2 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.

3 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay, we will

4 see you in a few minutes. Thank you.

5 MEMBER BAUER: But don't go home.

6 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Would you please

7 identify yourself, state your name and

8 address, and if you are not an attorney be

9 sworn in by our Secretary, please.

10 MS. DEMLOWE (ph): I am not an

11 attorney.

12 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand.

13 Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth

14 regarding case: 09-039?

15 MS. DEMLOWE: I do. My name is Carrie

16 Demlowe. I work for Allied Signs. My

17 address is 33650 Giftos Drive, Clinton

18 Township, Michigan.

19 I am here before you today to request

20 a variance for a second sign at the AT&T

21 store located on Novi Road. We recently

22 installed the letter set that is fronting

23 Novi Road, and the second letter set that we

24 are requesting for is on the east elevation

 

18

1 which would have visibility coming, going

2 westbound on Grand River and then within the

3 shopping center. The banner was installed,

4 so I am sure that all of you have already

5 driven by it and got a chance to look at it.

6 The basic hardship would be the lack,

7 the obvious lack of visibility coming off of

8 Grand River going westbound, and then within

9 the shopping center.

10 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That's it?

11 MS. DEMLOWE: That's it.

12 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Is

13 there anybody in the audience who would like

14 to address the Board regarding this case?

15 (No response.)

16 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Seeing none, we

17 will close the public remark section. Mr.

18 Boulard?

19 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. This is a

20 request similar to the Bagger Dave's request

21 and several others that we have seen

22 previously. These are buildings where the

23 frontage is on Novi Road, or some of the

24 adjacent ones is on Grand River, but the

 

19

1 actual entrance is on the other side. So,

2 it's not dissimilar to previous variance

3 requests you have seen.

4 One housekeeping note. The

5 application that you have in your packet

6 does not show the property owner's

7 signature, but I believe the original that's

8 in the Chairman's packet now has that. So,

9 that issue is resolved.

10 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good. Thank

11 you. Mr. Secretary, do we have any

12 correspondence?

13 MEMBER BAUER: Seventy-two notices

14 were mailed. Six returned. One approval.

15 "We have no problem with the

16 additional sign. In today's economic

17 climate businesses need all the help they

18 can get." And that is from Novi Auto Parts.

19 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

20 I will open it up to the Board.

21 Yes, Mr. Ghannam?

22 MEMBER GHANNAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair.

23 Is this a move from the other location on

24 Grand River, the AT&T store?

 

20

1 MS. DEMLOWE: You know, I'm not really

2 sure. I heard you guys talking about that

3 before the meeting had started and I'm not a

4 hundred percent sure if they are moving or

5 exactly what their plan was. Or maybe that

6 one is a company owned one and this is a

7 franchise one. I'm not --

8 MEMBER GHANNAM: This is a wireless

9 store?

10 MS. DEMLOWE: Yes, an AT&T wireless

11 store, yes.

12 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yeah, there is one on

13 the opposite side of Grand River on the

14 southeast corner maybe a block off of Novi

15 Road. Also, the two signs will be identical

16 obviously, correct?

17 MS. DEMLOWE: Yes.

18 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yeah, also as Mr.

19 Boulard mentioned there has been a number of

20 businesses at that corner and it is a very

21 unusual corner and there is very heavy

22 traffic going both ways. So, I don't see

23 any problem with the sign as requested. I

24 think it is within the same type of

 

21

1 circumstances of surrounding businesses and

2 that, so I would be willing to support it.

3 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. All

4 right.

5 MEMBER CASSIS: Just a clarification.

6 Mr. Boulard, do you know more than this lady

7 knows about whether those people are moving?

8 Or would this be the third sign for AT&T

9 within 50 feet?

10 MR. BOULARD: I don't know what the

11 status is of the store's ownership. I would

12 assume that AT&T would not want their stores

13 within 50 feet of each other. But I can't

14 say for sure.

15 MEMBER CASSIS: Well, she mentioned a

16 very significant fact. I know there was a

17 franchisee in Twelve Oaks Mall and they just

18 shut down. So, this could be a franchisee

19 while across the street is the main AT&T

20 outlet. I have a problem with three signs

21 within 50 feet of each other, I really do.

22 Because how much can you expose AT&T in that

23 corner? I would like more clarification on

24 it.

 

22

1 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

2 Anybody else? Yes, Mr. Bauer?

3 MEMBER BAUER: Would you prefer

4 holding off on this until we find out?

5 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes, I mean, that's

6 what I would like to know. I mean, if they

7 are moving, then my deliberation would take

8 a different course. But if it is three

9 signs now for AT&T, not for a franchisee

10 with a different name, but it's the same

11 company. That's what troubles me. And you

12 should have known, I would say, I mean,

13 didn't you put the other sign too? Are you

14 the people that put the other sign?

15 MS. DEMLOWE: We did the one that's

16 existing at this location that we're talking

17 about. As far as knowing what AT&T's plan

18 is with other stores that we have had

19 nothing to do with, I wish I could tell you,

20 but I really have no information. And I am

21 not privy to information like that as far as

22 their moving plans and what they are doing.

23 It is something that, though, that if it's

24 dependent upon the decision we could

 

23

1 certainly find that out for you. That's

2 just a matter of asking the end client,

3 AT&T.

4 And just as a general rule of thumb

5 when they go out and look for sites or scout

6 sites out, I would find it hard to believe

7 that they would not close one if they are,

8 in fact, that close. That just doesn't make

9 good business sense.

10 MEMBER CASSIS: You see, Mr. Chairman,

11 that's the clue for me to indicate that

12 these are two different parties. Because if

13 it was the same AT&T, they would have

14 indicated some way to Mr. Boulard or to the

15 City that this is what's happened. That we

16 are moving or we have a second store. But

17 when we have a franchisee and AT&T and now

18 we have three signs for the same company,

19 I -- thank you, Mr. Chair.

20 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: You are

21 welcomed.

22 MEMBER CASSIS: My colleagues might

23 have different opinions.

24 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay. I have a

 

24

1 question for you. Is there any way for us

2 to find this out?

3 MS. KUDLA: Well, unfortunately it's

4 not something that I can check property

5 records for because it's a lease and leases

6 generally are not recorded, so it's not by

7 any standard means could we find out. It

8 would require some just calling and

9 voluntary information giving on the part of

10 AT&T.

11 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay. So, there

12 you are. You have a choice to make now.

13 Either we table this and find out about it,

14 or deny it at this meeting. Because I have

15 a feeling that the group is not going to

16 have three signs just so close to each other

17 for the same particular establishment. So,

18 which way would you like us to go? I am

19 just giving you an option.

20 MS. DEMLOWE: I guess we'll have to

21 table it because if I go back to them and

22 say they denied it, and that is, in fact,

23 the case, then I'm going to find myself in a

24 world of hurt.

 

25

1 But, just to the same point. I

2 completely understand where you are coming

3 from, but like I said before, it's just not

4 something that they would naturally just

5 say, hey, this is what our plans are as far

6 as their general operations. We get the

7 location, the information, this is what we

8 want you to do, and that's what we run with.

9 And that's the information that you have

10 before you.

11 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Chairman, if I may

12 say.

13 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Go ahead.

14 MEMBER CASSIS: I see your predicament

15 and I am sorry that we have to go through

16 that procedure,

17 at least I do. I don't know about

18 eventuality. But, you see, the

19 proliferation of signs, I mean, we have to

20 somehow just control that situation to a

21 certain degree. And we have been generous.

22 We have been generous with many of the

23 applicants. You saw what we did just a

24 moment ago. And let me repeat for the

 

26

1 record because my microphone wasn't on.

2 But, you know, I am sorry that we put

3 you through this, at least I am, but we've

4 got to be a little bit more discriminatory

5 in how many signs we can put out there for

6 the same person. Thank you.

7 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Yes,

8 Mr. Bauer?

9 MEMBER BAUER: Can you find out for

10 us?

11 MS. DEMLOWE: Oh, yeah, that should

12 definitely not be a problem. I mean, the

13 client that we have is the sign

14 manufacturer, but the end client, it should

15 just be a matter of calling them up and

16 talking to them, because even if it was a

17 franchise versus a corporate owned, I

18 wouldn't image that they would just let them

19 get franchised and not know what it is they

20 are doing.

21 MEMBER CASSIS: How can they compete

22 with AT&T across the street?

23 MS. DEMLOWE: Yeah, right --

24 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Unless they are

 

27

1 moving to one place and close the other

2 place that we don't know about. So, I think

3 we need to have little more information than

4 what we have. And I would entertain a

5 motion to table this.

6 MEMBER BAUER: Motion to table and

7 have the gal from the sign company find out

8 for us for this next meeting.

9 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay. We will

10 see you again next --

11 MEMBER IBE: Second.

12 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All those in

13 favor of -- yes, Mr. Boulard?

14 MR. BOULARD: Excuse me. In order to

15 keep from having to re-notice this again if

16 it would be possible to table it to the next

17 meeting.

18 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That's what we

19 are talking about.

20 MR. BOULARD: Do you know the date of

21 that meeting?

22 MS. MARTIN: November? December?

23 MR. BOULARD: November.

24 MS. MARTIN: November 10th.

 

28

1 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: So, I will

2 entertain a motion to table this to the next

3 month's meeting.

4 MEMBER BAUER: So moved.

5 MEMBER IBE: Second.

6 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Seconded by Mr.

7 Ibe. I don't believe there will be any

8 further discussion, so will you please call

9 the roll.

10 MS. MARTIN: Member Bauer?

11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.

12 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?

13 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.

14 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?

15 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.

16 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?

17 MEMBER IBE: Yes.

18 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?

19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.

20 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Sanghvi?

21 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes.

22 Okay, we will see you next month with

23 some more information. Thank you.

24 MS. DEMLOWE: November 10th, right?

 

29

1 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes. Thank you.

2 All right. Moving on to the next

3 case. This is case number: 09-041 at 44455

4 Grand River Avenue for Wrenchers. The

5 Petitioner is requesting minimum lot area,

6 front and side yard parking, overhead door

7 facing major road, parking setback and

8 parking space variances to permit an

9 automobile service facility in an existing

10 tenant space in a building located at 44455

11 Grand River Avenue. The property is zoned

12 I-1, light industrial and is located at the

13 southeast corner of Grand River Avenue and

14 Lannys Road. The building is designed to

15 accommodate more than one tenant and is

16 currently partially occupied by Tim's Glass

17 and Marino Cutlery.

18 Is the Applicant here? Would you

19 please come forward and identify yourself,

20 give your name and address. And if you are

21 not an attorney please be sworn in. If you

22 are the only one who is going to be talking,

23 then you should be the only one who would be

24 sworn in. If anybody else is going to be

 

30

1 participate they might as well be sworn in

2 right now.

3 MR. HOFFMAN: My name is Stefan

4 Hoffman, I'm the architect, 22339 Roberts

5 Drive, Northville, Michigan.

6 MR. BAKER: My name is Roy Baker I

7 reside at 479 River Ridge in Waterford

8 Township. I am the Applicant.

9 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right hand.

10 Do swear or affirm to the truth regarding

11 case: 09-041?

12 MR. HOFFMAN: I do first.

13 MR. BAKER: I do.

14 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.

15 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All right. Go

16 ahead and make your presentation.

17 MR. HOFFMAN: I am here with owner,

18 Mr. Baker and his three partners and the

19 landlord of the building. And these

20 gentleman as the tenants wanted to open up a

21 very exclusive high end automobile repair

22 business. It doesn't cater to just brakes

23 or mufflers or -- it caters to hundreds of

24 thousand of dollars worth of custom old hot

 

31

1 rods. So, in that respect we don't have a

2 lot of traffic. There is only four

3 gentlemen that are working in there, the

4 four partners.

5 The landlord also is a tenant of the

6 building, he owns Tim Glass who he also has

7 very little employees on site. And then

8 there is a kitchen equipment supply company

9 that basically has one employee. So

10 altogether the building is very lightly

11 occupied.

12 Currently it has all the overhead

13 doors facing the road as it was designed

14 back 35 some odd years ago. All the parking

15 is used in the front. The back is gravel

16 and not used but for deliveries and general

17 trailer use for the vehicles. We are

18 proposing to try to use the building with

19 the overhead doors as an integral part of

20 the business. We can't really change

21 architecturally or the site plan being that

22 it's shy of the required two acres, but we

23 are proposing to enhance the area, provide a

24 wonderful landscape and parking plan for the

 

32

1 front of the building. And when the use

2 arises for paving and using the back as

3 parking, we are proposing to do that at a

4 later date when we have the need for it.

5 Like I said, there is no public or

6 commercial mercantile people coming and

7 going.

8 Usually the tenants park and either go

9 off site with a van or otherwise. The

10 building is not really occupied by a lot of

11 tenants so we don't need a lot of parking.

12 Furthermore, you know, economic times don't

13 really allow the landlord to, you know, do a

14 lot for as come basis. We like to use it

15 as, and renovate the back as needed. So,

16 with that said, they have a great business.

17 They have a great plan. The tenant and

18 landlord have been there for many years and

19 we would like to improve the corridor with

20 the enhancement with a nice landscaping and

21 parking and maintain the use of the building

22 as it was designed.

23 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good.

24 Anything else? Is there anybody in the

 

33

1 audience who would like to address the Board

2 regarding this case?

3 (No response.)

4 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Seeing none, we

5 will close the public remark section. And,

6 Mr. Boulard?

7 MR. BOULARD: Thank you. This is a

8 somewhat unique situation. You have got an

9 existing building with parking in the,

10 parking in the front adjacent to the

11 roadway. And, in fact, the roadway has, I'm

12 sure, become more widely used and heavy

13 traffic since the building was built. So,

14 you have got a business that wants to move

15 into this location. It requires a special

16 use and some other, some other requirements

17 be met, and it's difficult to do. So, in

18 your packet is a number of pages of review.

19 This project has been reviewed by the

20 Planning Staff. It has been to the

21 Commission for preliminary approval. And

22 Mr. Spencer is here if you have got any

23 questions regarding the interplay of the

24 variance request and the site plan approval,

 

34

1 or any other questions that would be

2 pertinent too. So, thank you.

3 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

4 Mr. Secretary, do we have any

5 correspondence?

6 MEMBER BAUER: There were 27 notices

7 sent. One return. No responses.

8 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

9 Before I open it up to the Board, I had a

10 question. What exactly is the nature of

11 your business there?

12 MR. BAKER: The nature of our

13 business, sir, is the repair and restoration

14 of classic automobiles and muscle cars.

15 Vehicles belonging to collectors.

16 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay. So, this

17 is not a bump shop for regular accidents and

18 all that kind of stuff?

19 MR. BAKER: No, sir.

20 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

21 Okay, all right. I will open it up to the

22 Board. Yes, Mr. Bauer?

23 MEMBER BAUER: Is there present

24 parking in the front?

 

35

1 MR. BAKER: Yes.

2 MR. BOULARD: Yes.

3 MEMBER BAUER: That's all I have.

4 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Wrobel?

5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Mr. Spencer,

6 since you cared to join us this evening I

7 wouldn't want you to miss your opportunity

8 to give us your perspective.

9 MR. SPENCER: Good evening. Well, in

10 our respect, this is an existing

11 nonconforming site. There are several of

12 them along Grand River as you are well

13 aware. The Applicant has proposed to

14 improve the site considerably in the front

15 and the side. We commend the Applicant for

16 doing that. And you saw in the packet

17 material that staff supported variances for

18 the use and the parking in the front setback

19 and parking on the side of the building.

20 The parking that's there in front of

21 the building now is not even the layout that

22 was presented on the site plan, it's

23 actually closer to Grand River Avenue. They

24 would be removing some of the green space in

 

36

1 front of the building and pushing the

2 parking a little bit closer to the building.

3 Therefore, they would have room to put a

4 landscape island in between the parking and

5 the street. So, those portions of the

6 variance as we mentioned in our staff review

7 we support it.

8 The parking space variance we did not

9 present an opinion on that, but I would say

10 a couple things on that at this time. The

11 rear area from our observations appears to

12 be used on a sporadic or a low use amount

13 for trailer or equipment storage, and

14 occasional vehicle passes. So, we don't see

15 a lot of use to that with the two current

16 businesses that are located there. The

17 Applicant is proposing some landscaping

18 screening from that rear yard which we also

19 think will be beneficial to the

20 neighborhood.

21 My only concern would be on granting

22 variances that if this is an automobile

23 repair place and some other automobile

24 repair place supersedes this business, that

 

37

1 you may have parking issues. It is

2 considerably, the amount of variance that

3 they are requesting is considerable, but

4 that's based on a typical automobile repair

5 place which as you know, usually when you

6 take your car into somebody to repair it

7 they say, well, I can get to it in a week.

8 It's hard to get it repaired that same day,

9 so there's typically vehicles stacked up in

10 the parking lot area for repair. And there

11 is also cars waiting to be picked up because

12 people may not have the money to pick it up

13 today. They got to wait until tomorrow if

14 they find out how much the bill is, et

15 cetera, et cetera.

16 We think that this particular business

17 could work very well on this site given the

18 low volume that we anticipate with this

19 site. Like I said, my only caution would be

20 some future repair shop in this location.

21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Thank you.

22 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you.

23 MEMBER GHANNAM: May I ask him some

24 questions, Mr. Chair?

 

38

1 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Go ahead.

2 MEMBER GHANNAM: Just a couple of

3 questions. Are there any issues from the

4 City's perspective regarding fire or safety

5 issues?

6 MR. SPENCER: Well, the fire and

7 safety issues would be taken care of through

8 the building permit process. They will

9 finalize building permits. The fire marshal

10 requires flammable liquids to be stored

11 safely. The volume of flammable liquids

12 that they propose to store there is very

13 minor compared to some garages, so we don't

14 anticipate any real problems. The fire

15 marshal has reviewed the plan. Before plans

16 are approved by the Planning Commission, the

17 fire marshal is one of the reviewers of our

18 site plan.

19 MEMBER GHANNAM: The second question

20 would be, if you're concerned about a

21 potential future business at this spot,

22 would you suggest that we, if we are going

23 to grant these variances, limit it to this

24 particular tenant for the duration of their

 

39

1 tenancy?

2 MR. SPENCER: I would say if our

3 attorney concurs that that's what you might

4 want to do with this particular business.

5 MS. KUDLA: That could be possible if

6 you wanted to do that.

7 MEMBER GHANNAM: I don't have any

8 other questions for you, sir. Thank you.

9 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Go ahead.

10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: If anyone

11 has any other questions?

12 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes. Can I?

13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Go ahead.

14 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, go ahead.

15 MEMBER CASSIS: Mr. Spencer, are you

16 privy as to whether there will be painting

17 of vehicles? And how, if such, how would

18 they handle the fumes and the noise from any

19 --

20 MR. SPENCER: That's a very good

21 question. And we asked those questions to

22 the Applicant because the Zoning Ordinance

23 puts body shops in a different category.

24 This is not a body shop, a body shop where

 

40

1 they have to have extensive equipment,

2 ventilation systems. And typically we like

3 to see them located in our I-2 district.

4 MEMBER CASSIS: So, this is strictly

5 mechanical repair?

6 MR. SPENCER: Strictly mechanical

7 repair. I can't -- you know, I mean, maybe

8 if there is a scrape you get the spray paint

9 out or something, but that's not what we

10 call a body shop.

11 MEMBER CASSIS: Okay.

12 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.

13 Cassis.

14 MEMBER CASSIS: Thank you Mr. Chair.

15 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Wrobel?

16 Go ahead.

17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Thank you.

18 To the Applicant. How many vehicles can you

19 fit inside the body shop at one time?

20 MR. BAKER: Our business model

21 provides for four stalls, work stations if

22 you will.

23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: The cars,

24 the incoming cars, outgoing cars, that was

 

41

1 mentioned that people may have to pick up or

2 waiting to be worked on, would those be

3 stored inside or outside? And if stored

4 outside, how many do you anticipate at one

5 time being outside?

6 MR. BAKER: The type of vehicles that

7 we're dealing with, I'm quite certain that

8 our clients would be very displeased with us

9 if we theft these vehicles outside. So, the

10 answer is, no, they are going to be inside

11 the building.

12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: So, there

13 wouldn't be any additional parking required

14 for that?

15 MR. BAKER: No.

16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Thank you.

17 That's all, Mr. Chair.

18 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Anybody else?

19 Yes, Ms. Krieger?

20 MEMBER KRIEGER: I wanted to confirm

21 the screening in the rear from Grand River,

22 that you intended as well to put screening

23 around the back area since further down the

24 street there is more residential homes

 

42

1 there?

2 MR. HOFFMAN: We have arborvitaes

3 columnar along the whole side on Lannys

4 Drive. Not so much on Grand River.

5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay, thank you.

6 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay, very good.

7 Anybody else? My question was what was the

8 exact nature of the work they will be doing,

9 and I think that has been adequately

10 answered by our questions. And I personally

11 don't see any problem with inviting a

12 business like that on Grand River myself.

13 But I would entertain a motion regarding

14 this case any time anybody is ready. Yes,

15 Mr. Ghannam?

16 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will go ahead and

17 make a motion, Mr. Chair. I will go ahead

18 and move in case number: 09-041 for 44455

19 Grand River Avenue for Wrenchers, that we

20 approve the six variances that were

21 requested, and I won't list each and every

22 one of them, but I would do that for a

23 number of different reasons. Number one, I

24 think all the issues regarding setback and

 

43

1 frontage and so forth, density requirements

2 unreasonably prevent the use of the property

3 for the permitted purpose. The variance

4 will provide substantial justice to

5 petitioner and surrounding property owners

6 in the zoning district. This property is

7 unique in terms of the way it's situated.

8 It's certainly not a self created problem.

9 There is no issues with light or air.

10 Problems to adjacent properties. Fire

11 danger or public safety issues will be

12 resolved through Planning Commission and so

13 forth. And no issues with regard to

14 property values in the area. And I think

15 the Zoning Ordinances would be observed.

16 I would also make it part of my motion

17 that we limit the variance to the duration

18 of this particular tenant and its tenancy.

19 In other words, if this tenant for some

20 reason leaves, the variance would terminate

21 upon the event.

22 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Very good.

23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Second.

24 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: The motion has

 

44

1 been made and seconded. Any further

2 discussion? Yes, Ms. Krieger?

3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Mr. Spencer, did you

4 have something to add?

5 MR. SPENCER: This might be a little

6 unusual for me so speak at this time, but to

7 clarify my remarks, the only part of the

8 variance request that we felt that you may

9 want to condition would be the number of

10 parking spaces. The other variances for the

11 setback for the parking and the location of

12 those things we think that those don't need

13 to be conditioned on that occupant. Because

14 once they are in place underground they are

15 there. They are going to be there. So, you

16 don't want somebody else coming in to occupy

17 the building to be faced with variances that

18 were already created and underground. That

19 would be unnecessary for them to come in.

20 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Your

21 point is well taken.

22 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Can I speak?

23 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: I think the time

24 has passed for you to say anything.

 

45

1 UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER: Just as the

2 owner.

3 MEMBER GHANNAM: Actually I had a

4 question for him. I wasn't sure what

5 condition you were referring to.

6 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: The parking.

7 MEMBER GHANNAM: Were you referring to

8 the condition for a variance for the parking

9 for this particular tenant?

10 MR. SPENCER: For this particular

11 tenant because my concern was if another

12 automobile repair place went in there that

13 had a greater parking demand, there would be

14 a shortage of parking spaces on this site.

15 MEMBER GHANNAM: I understand.

16 MR. SPENCER: The other variances I

17 think work good with the site.

18 MEMBER GHANNAM: I understand that,

19 and I will go ahead and adopt that and amend

20 my motion to reflect that suggestion.

21 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay, very good.

22 So, the motion has been made and has been

23 seconded. And I don't see any further

24 discussion, so, Ms. Martin, would you please

 

46

1 call the roll.

2 MS. MARTIN: Member Bauer?

3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.

4 MS. MARTIN: Member Cassis?

5 MEMBER CASSIS: Yes.

6 MS. MARTIN: Member Ghannam?

7 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes.

8 MS. MARTIN: Member Ibe?

9 MEMBER IBE: Yes.

10 MS. MARTIN: Member Krieger?

11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.

12 MS. MARTIN: Chairman Sanghvi?

13 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Yes.

14 MS. MARTIN: Member Wrobel?

15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Yes.

16 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Thank you. Well,

17 congratulations and best of luck.

18 MR. BAKER: Thank you.

19 MR. HOFFMAN: Thank you.

20 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: That brings us

21 to the other matters.

22 Yes, Mr. Boulard?

23 MR. BOULARD: Real quick. You have

24 got the packet for the AT&T store, if you

 

47

1 would like to leave that and save the

2 copies.

3 Also, tomorrow evening at 6:30 is the

4 Master Plan Open House starting in here and

5 out in the atrium, so please let folks know,

6 and you are welcome to come. All the

7 contributions are very valuable.

8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON WROBEL: Is it a

9 formal presentation or just a come and see?

10 MR. BOULARD: It's very short, very

11 short discussion.

12 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay. Anything

13 else? Yes, Ms. Krieger?

14 MEMBER KRIEGER: I would like for next

15 month meeting to be excused.

16 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: Okay.

17 MEMBER KRIEGER: I am going south of

18 the equator.

19 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: May I entertain

20 a motion to adjourn.

21 MEMBER BAUER: So moved.

22 MEMBER IBE: Second.

23 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: The motion has

24 been made and seconded. All those in favor

 

48

1 of the motion please signify by saying aye?

2 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.

3 CHAIRPERSON SANGHVI: All those

4 opposed same sign. Thank you. All right,

5 we are done for the evening.

6 (The meeting was adjourned at

7 7:45 p.m.)

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1 C E R T I F I C A T E

2

3

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5 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify

6 that I have recorded stenographically the

7 proceedings had and testimony taken in the

8 above-entitled matter at the time and place

9 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further

10 certify that the foregoing transcript,

11 consisting of (41) typewritten pages, is a

12 true and correct transcript of my said

13 stenographic notes.

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17

18

19 _____________________________

20 Mona L. Talton,

21 Certified Shorthand Reporter

22

23

24 October 13, 2009