| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD
OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, July 8, 2008. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, July 8, 2008 3 7:00 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would like to 6 call to order the Tuesday, July 8th, meeting 7 of the Zoning Board of Appeals for the City 8 of Novi. 9 Ms. Working, will you please call the 10 roll. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 12 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absent excused. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer? 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absent excused 17 as well. 18 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye, present. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 21 MEMBER GHANNAM: Present. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Present. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
4 1 MEMBER WROBEL: Present. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 3 MEMBER IBE: Present. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If we can please 5 have Member Bauer please lead us in the 6 Pledge of Allegiance. 7 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to 8 the flag of the United States of America and 9 to the Republic for which it stands, one 10 nation under God indivisible with liberty 11 and justice for all. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 13 Member Bauer. 14 We do have a quorum present here 15 tonight so the meeting is now in session. 16 The rules of conduct for the City of Novi 17 Zoning Board of Appeals can be found in the 18 back on the agenda and also on the City of 19 Novi's website, but I will ask that 20 everybody please turn off their cell phones 21 and pagers. 22 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a 23 hearing board empowered by the Novi City 24 Charter to hear appeals seeking variances
5 1 from the application of the Novi Zoning 2 Ordinance. It takes a vote of at least four 3 members to approve a variance request and a 4 vote of the majority present to deny our 5 request. 6 Today we do have six members, so a 7 full Board is not present. And since at 8 least four votes are required, those 9 Petitioners who wish to table their request 10 until the next meeting or when a full Board 11 is present may do so now. Is there anyone 12 interested in doing that? 13 Seeing none, we will move on to the 14 approval of the agenda. Are there any 15 amendments? 16 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair? 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: I would like to add 19 under other matters ZBA07-047 for 1339 East 20 Lake Road. You have the request for an 21 extension for 90 days to the variance 22 approval previously granted in your file 23 folder this evening. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Let's go ahead
6 1 and make that number two. 2 MS. WORKING: Under other matters, 3 okay. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then we'll move 5 the Rules of Procedure to the last one. 6 MS. WORKING: Okay. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then under three 8 I would like to discuss the City Council's 9 decision or at least make the Board aware of 10 the City Council's decision regarding that 11 exact topic, the pulling the permit how long 12 after a variance. That will be number 13 three. 14 And then number four will be Rules of 15 Procedure. 16 Any other changes? 17 MS. WORKING: Not that I am aware of. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then I will -- 19 MEMBER WROBEL: Motion to approve the 20 amended agenda. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All in favor say 23 aye? 24 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
7 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay, we have an 2 agenda. On the agenda is the approval of 3 the minutes from June of 2008. Are there 4 any amendments to the minutes? Or is there 5 a motion to approve? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Move to approve. 7 MEMBER GHANNAM: Second. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All in favor? 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. So, 11 both have been approved. 12 We'll move to the public remarks 13 portion of the meeting and I will ask anyone 14 that wants to make a comment related not to 15 a case on the agenda tonight to come 16 forward. All comments related to a case on 17 the agenda should be held until that case is 18 called. However, if anyone else wishes to 19 address the Board at this time they may. 20 Seeing none, I will close the public 21 remark section and move to our first case. 22 But it appears that no one is present until 23 what case number? 24 MS. WORKING: Case number three or
8 1 item number three. Case number: 08-027. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Point of order, 3 I don't need to call the cases out loud we 4 can skip right to that? 5 MS. KUDLA: Correct. 6 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. Then 8 we'll call case number: 08-027 filed by 9 Donna Skelcy of 301 Duana. The Board 10 Members will remember this was tabled from 11 6-10-2008. The Petitioner is requesting a 12 variance from the strict requirement of the 13 Zoning Ordinance which prohibits fences on 14 lots of record in the front yard setback. 15 MS. KUDLA: Since the lasting meeting 16 our office had an opportunity to look at the 17 section of the Ordinance more closely and 18 come to the determination that it's not 19 required for the ZBA to make the 20 determination on whether the fence is 21 decorative or not, it's the City's place to 22 make that interpretation first before 23 bringing something like this before the ZBA. 24 At this point the Applicant did visit
9 1 with the city landscape architect as 2 suggested and he has issued a memo 3 indicating that in his opinion it is a 4 decorative fence. So, given that the City 5 has now determined it's a decorative fence, 6 there is no need for us or the ZBA to make a 7 determination and the case can just be 8 withdrawn, and she is fine with the fence as 9 is based on the memo dated June 11th, 2008. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Perfect. Do we 11 need any formal motion from the Board or can 12 we move on? 13 MS. KUDLA: We can just withdraw the 14 case. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. For the 16 Board to motion to withdraw the case? 17 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Based on the 19 City's determination of it being a 20 decorative fence. I'll make that motion. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Bauer 23 seconded that motion. 24 If you can call the roll.
10 1 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 2 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer? 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 6 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 10 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 12 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Motion to withdraw the 14 case from consideration of the Board passes 15 6-0. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It turns out 17 that we don't have just jurisdiction over 18 it. The City landscape architect basically 19 said it fits within the Ordinance if I am 20 correct, so you should be all set, I 21 believe. 22 MS. KUDLA: That's correct. 23 MS. SKELCY: Thank you. It was an 24 interesting process.
11 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We aim to 2 please. All right. 3 4 I will go ahead and jump back to case 5 number one on the agenda. Case number: 6 08-019 filed by RMJ Development for 25280 7 Seeley Road. Is that Petitioner present? 8 9 All right. Anthony Schmitt of 10 LaKritz-Weber & Company for Providence Park 11 Village. Come forward. So, we will go 12 ahead and call case number: 08-026 filed by 13 Anthony Schmitt of Lakritz-Weber & Company 14 for Providence Park Village located at 47601 15 Grand River Avenue. 16 Board Members will remember this was 17 tabled from the June 10th, 2008 meeting. 18 The Applicant is requesting one 112 square 19 foot sign variance for the placement of a 20 128 square foot double sided real estate 21 sign to be located at Providence Hospital 22 property at stated address. 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Mr. Chair, I need to 24 recuse myself.
12 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. I will 2 make a motion to allow Member Krieger to 3 recuse herself due to her working for 4 Providence. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All in favor say 7 aye? 8 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: At this time if 10 you can raise your hand and be sworn in for 11 us. Will you please raise your hand and 12 swear to tell the truth in case number: 13 08-026? 14 MR. SCHUCHMAN: I swear to tell the 15 truth. I am not Anthony Schmitt. I am Gabe 16 Schuchman. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I was just going 18 to say give your name and address and 19 proceed with presenting your case. 20 MR. SCHUCHMAN: I didn't want to start 21 off on a bad foot. My name is a Gabriel 22 Schuchman. LaKritz-Weber address is 29100 23 Northwestern Highway, Suite 240, Southfield, 24 Michigan 48034.
13 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead and 2 proceed with any facts of the case you want 3 to present to the Board. 4 MR. SCHUCHMAN: We are the marketing 5 company, the retail leasing company for the 6 subject property. This is really the 7 ancillary phase is probably the best 8 description for the Providence Park 9 Development. There is only two phases to 10 the project. The hotel Staybridge Suites, 11 which has already been constructed. And 12 then we are representing the leasing for the 13 remainder of the property which would 14 encompass office, retail sources and other 15 commercial components. 16 Currently the hotel is up and 17 constructed. The developer is working with 18 Providence Hospital, Whitehall Development. 19 We're in the midst of going through the site 20 planning process on it. What we're asking 21 the ZBA for today is the current sign is 22 allotted at least a four by four sign. 23 Given the fact that the property because is 24 not a hundred percent entitled yet, we're
14 1 not in the construction. We expect that to 2 take place over the next few months. We are 3 hoping to keep the development sign up at 4 this time as opposed to having to take it 5 down and then put it back up the same sign 6 in a few months. That's our request at this 7 time. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: At this time is 9 there anyone in the audience that wishes to 10 make comment on this case? Seeing none, I 11 will read the correspondence. 12 I will let the Board know that in this 13 case there were 60 notices mailed and zero 14 approvals and zero objections. 15 Anyone from the Building Department? 16 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 17 MR. FOX: City staff, we are not in 18 support of this particular request. As far 19 as the construction identification sign goes 20 they are allowed to be a 64 square foot sign 21 with a stipulation that once the first C of 22 O has been issued they have to take it down 23 and then it can be a real estate, but not a 24 construction identification sign per the
15 1 Ordinance. 2 They are requesting a 112 square foot 3 sign versus a 64. The original sign that 4 was up was a two-sided sign the same length, 5 but it was not split in that particular 6 fashion. A double sided sign is considered 7 one sign as long as the signs are within two 8 feet of each other. Once you spread them 9 apart they become two separate signs which 10 is why you are so much larger in square 11 footage in this particular case. 12 Since there is already a C of 0 issued 13 we're considering it to be a real estate 14 only sign which is a four by four sign. We 15 don't believe that it does substantial 16 justice to the adjoining properties since 17 there is a property across the street 18 advertising with a four by four sign in the 19 same conditions. And that's it. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you very 21 much. And I will go ahead and open it up 22 for Board discussion and comments. Member 23 Wrobel? 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
16 1 First off as we know, this property has not 2 yet received the site plan approval from the 3 Planning Commission, therefore, in my 4 opinion this is premature to go ahead and 5 ask for a larger sign. Once that is 6 approved I think at that time would be more 7 appropriate to come in and ask for a larger 8 sign than is allowed at this time. 9 Therefore, I cannot support this 10 request. Thank you. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 12 Member Wrobel. 13 Other Board Members? Member Bauer? 14 MEMBER BAUER: I too will have to 15 agree with the previous speaker. It's too 16 early to propose that sign. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 18 Member comments? 19 MEMBER GHANNAM: I just have a 20 question. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. 22 Member Ghannam? 23 MEMBER GHANNAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 24 From the City's perspective once a C of F is
17 1 issued they can have a sign no larger than 2 16 square foot, is that your position? 3 MR. FOX: That is correct. You are 4 allowed a construction identification sign 5 only up until the first C of O is issued for 6 that particular property. After that they 7 are allowed a real estate sign up to 16 8 square feet. 9 MEMBER GHANNAM: And the proposed sign 10 that you see is? 11 MR. FOX: It is an eight by eight. 12 They are calling it a construction 13 identification sign, and since it has two 14 sides spread apart it's actually 64 square 15 feet per side. 16 MR. SCHUCHMAN: A 112 square feet. 17 MEMBER GHANNAM: Do you know, how, 18 sir, that the Petitioner qualifies under our 19 Ordinance to get the sign approved? 20 MR. SCHUCHMAN: From our perspective 21 -- and I stand to be corrected. 22 MEMBER GHANNAM: Absolutely. 23 MR. SCHUCHMAN: This is because this 24 project is being built in phases, so even
18 1 though we're right now working on the 2 entitlement process for this next phase, we 3 still view this as an active construction 4 site and we are marketing it as an active 5 construction site. With regards to right 6 now there is two phases to the sign as per 7 the Ordinance, but as Mr. Fox pointed it out 8 to us because it is separated more than two 9 feet comes to 128 square feet. Right now I 10 brought a few photos with me. 11 One of the faces is currently blocked 12 by a tree. We would have no problem just 13 making it a one face sign to reducing it 14 down so it could be the correct sign size 15 for a construction sign. If you move it any 16 closer to 64 square feet we could do that if 17 we have the correct mathematics. That is 18 from our perspective. This is an active 19 construction site. That's how we are trying 20 to get tenants to come to this project. 21 There is things happening. The hotel is 22 opening up. We are trying to keep the 23 synergy and energy at this project. 24 And I think given the distance off the
19 1 road that the property sits, reducing it 2 just down to a leasing sign is enough to 3 create a really hardship for the project and 4 future leasing of it. That's from just a 5 marketing perspective. 6 MEMBER GHANNAM: In the meantime 7 because there has been a C of O issued and 8 you are only entitled to a 16 square foot 9 real estate sign, my question is what is the 10 practical difficulty? 11 MR. SCHUCHMAN: The practical 12 difficulty is 60 square feet is a difficult 13 sign for people to observe, potential 14 tenants, just the distance that it sits off 15 the road, that's our practical difficulty. 16 People just will notice a vacant land and 17 they won't notice what's going on to see 18 that there is future opportunity for them to 19 be here in the community of Novi. And that 20 is what our difficulty is. 21 MEMBER GHANNAM: Thank you. I don't 22 have any other questions. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, 24 Member Ghannam.
20 1 Member Ibe? 2 MEMBER IBE: Just real quickly. 3 Member Wrobel had mentioned something about 4 the Planning Committee. Are you aware how 5 soon that you might be before the Planning 6 Committee to get the approval that you might 7 need? 8 MR. SCHUCHMAN: I can't speak 9 specifically. Better than myself with 10 regards to where the project is. My 11 understanding is that they have had a 12 plethora of meetings talking about this 13 project with Providence, with Whitehall to 14 get the point of getting this project 15 entitled. Our understanding is it's not a 16 question of years, but a question of a few 17 months of getting the project entitled. It 18 seems that it's a project that everyone 19 wants to see. That's my understanding. I 20 couldn't speak to specific dates and times. 21 MEMBER IBE: Is there anyone from the 22 City or Planning that can answer that 23 question for me? 24 MR. FOX: There is nobody here from
21 1 the Planning Department that can answer that 2 at this time. 3 MEMBER IBE: Thank you, Mr. Chairman. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. 5 Member Wrobel? 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Just because it comes 7 before the Planning Commission there is no 8 guarantee that the Planning Commission is 9 going to recommend it or proceed with what 10 the applicant proposes. So, that's another 11 thing to keep in mind. 12 MR. SCHUCHMAN: Just a thought if I 13 could interrupt just a second. If there is 14 a consideration that this project may take 15 two years for site plan approval, if we have 16 to reappear again in front of the Zoning 17 Board two or three months, a number of 18 months that you folks feel comfortable with 19 to reevaluate if the sign is still 20 appropriate, we would be willing to do that. 21 And maybe at that point we might be in a 22 better situation of how close we are to 23 actually reaching the point where maybe 24 we're at that point by right, have the right
22 1 to put up a construction sign. So, that's 2 something else that we would be more than 3 happy to do. 4 And obviously we will be more than 5 happy to take down one of the faces to at 6 least reach what the requirements are for 7 the City of Novi. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 9 Members? I too, this early in the game 10 don't feel comfortable approving a sign this 11 large. The two faces are just too much. It 12 takes eight times of what is allowed by the 13 Ordinance. If the Petitioner wanted to come 14 back at some other time and reapply with 15 something I think this Board would be more 16 amicable with, I think that would be another 17 option. 18 But as far as providing synergies and 19 this and that, the Zoning Board has already 20 approved several Providence Park signs. 21 Everyone knows it's coming along. This 22 whole entire project, all the phases. So, I 23 too am going to be forced to deny this 24 request.
23 1 So, if there is no other discussion or 2 if someone would care to make a motion? 3 Member Ibe? 4 MEMBER IBE: I move that in the case 5 of -- I move that the Board deny the use 6 variance in the case number: 08-026 filed 7 by Anthony Schmitt for Providence Park 8 Village Center because the Petitioner has 9 not established a necessary hardship and the 10 Petitioner has not demonstrated that 11 granting the variance will impact the 12 adjacent properties next to it. 13 And also that the request made by the 14 Petitioner at this time is premature in 15 light of the discussions raised by the Board 16 Members. Accordingly, I would move that the 17 request be denied at this time. 18 MEMBER BAUER: Second the motion. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If I could just 20 say or ask you to amend the motion to say 21 that the Board used practical difficulty as 22 its determination in this matter. 23 MEMBER IBE: That's fine. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the seconder
24 1 agrees? 2 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We have a motion 4 and a second by Member Bauer. If you could 5 please call the roll. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 7 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 10 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 11 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger is 13 recused. 14 Member Wrobel? 15 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Motion to deny passes 17 5-0. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: At this time the 19 variance has been denied. 20 MR. SCHUCHMAN: Thank you. Can I ask 21 you a quick question? 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We might be able 23 to answer it. 24 MR. SCHUCHMAN: You made a statement
25 1 that maybe we could consider a different 2 size of sign. Would that be the leasing 3 sign only or would you want to take a look 4 at a few different proposals? 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I was going to 6 say basically that you can look at what's 7 allowed by Ordinance and if you still didn't 8 feel that that was what you needed and you 9 felt that there was a practical difficulty 10 still that you needed above that square 11 feet, that you could be reapply to the 12 Zoning Board with a different sign. 13 MR. SCHUCHMAN: Thank you. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Welcome back, 15 Member Krieger. 16 17 I'll go back to case number one, 18 RMJ Development. Is that Petitioner here at 19 this time? 20 MR. COUCH: Yes. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We'll go ahead 22 and call case number: 08-019 filed by RMJ 23 Development for 25280 Seeley Road. As Board 24 Members may have remembered this case was
26 1 tabled from the June 2008 meeting. Donny 2 Couch is representing the development and is 3 requesting a variance to continue the 4 nonconforming use of outdoor storage for 5 building materials, contractor's equipment 6 and supplies and to park RMJ Development 7 vehicles on the property located at said 8 address. The property is zoned I-1 and 9 located north of Grand River and east of 10 Seeley Road. 11 And you were sworn in at the last 12 meeting as I remember. 13 MR. COUCH: Yes. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And you are 15 still under oath. Go ahead and proceed with 16 any comments. 17 MR. COUCH: Just in regards to the 18 last meeting we were at a standstill because 19 I think you guys were trying to find out 20 whether it was zoned before and if it was 21 right after the previous tenant closed down 22 and it was always for lease. I believe that 23 was the last thing we left at, and you guys 24 were going back to your records to check
27 1 according to that, I believe. 2 And I think I had Jim Harrigan (ph) 3 from Signature Associates forward something 4 to the City of Novi or Robin Working's 5 e-mail. Is that right, Robin? 6 MS. WORKING: The Board Members have 7 it in their packet. 8 MR. COUCH: Okay. 9 MS. WORKING: Either from this month 10 or last month. That is correct. 11 MR. COUCH: Stating that the building 12 was, they always have been trying to lease 13 it since the other occupants moved out. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. 15 Anything else? 16 MR. COUCH: No. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: At this time I 18 will ask the Board Secretary to read any 19 correspondence into the record. 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: For case number: 21 ZBA-08-019 there are no changes. Twenty-one 22 notices mailed and zero approvals and zero 23 objections. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, Madam
28 1 Secretary. 2 Is there anyone in the audience that 3 wishes to make a comment on this case? 4 Seeing none, we'll close the public comments 5 and ask the Building Department and City for 6 their comments. 7 MS. KUDLA: We looked at the issue and 8 the issue with the abandonment. We did 9 receive and we reviewed the letter that was 10 forwarded indicating that the property owner 11 had continued leasing. What would be before 12 the Board tonight would be first to look at 13 that letter and determine whether or not in 14 your opinion that's enough evidence to 15 indicate that the use was not abandoned. 16 In the event that you determine that 17 it was abandoned, then the matter is in 18 front of you as a use variance and you have 19 to consider the undue hardship standard as 20 to whether or not to grant the use variance 21 to continue to use storage outside in an I-1 22 district. 23 If you do decide that it is not 24 abandoned, then you go back to the original
29 1 consideration of whether the use is -- in 2 the event that you determine that the use is 3 not abandoned, the original consideration 4 was whether or not the use, the 5 nonconforming use of the same or no 6 classification provided, that the Board of 7 appeals make a finding that the proposed use 8 is equally appropriate or more appropriate. 9 So, that would be in the event you 10 find it was not abandoned. What you need to 11 consider is whether the use that is proposed 12 is equally appropriate or more appropriate 13 in the district than the existing 14 nonconforming use. So, you would not be 15 looking at standards such as practical 16 difficulty or undue hardship. You are just 17 trying to determine whether the use is 18 equally appropriate or more appropriate. 19 In the event if you find the use is 20 abandoned and we're considering use 21 variance, then you are back to the undue 22 hardship standard to consider. 23 So, the first issue to consider is 24 whether or not the Board based on the
30 1 evidence presented thinks the use was 2 abandoned or not abandoned. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you very 4 much. Anyone else from the City? 5 MR. FOX: I think we are all set. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then I will open 7 it up for Board comments. Member Ghannam? 8 MEMBER GHANNAM: I just have a 9 question for our counsel. Do we have to make 10 that discussion first or make that finding 11 first before we make a motion? 12 MS. KUDLA: Correct. The abandonment 13 issue would have to be addressed first 14 before you can move on to whatever the 15 second question would be depending on what 16 that would be. 17 MEMBER GHANNAM: What would you 18 require or suggest? That we make a formal 19 motion on that? 20 MS. KUDLA: Correct. 21 MEMBER GHANNAM: Make that decision 22 and then move on to step two? 23 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board
31 1 Members have any questions at this time? 2 Can you go one more time? 3 MS. KUDLA: Say that again? 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can you go one 5 more time through that for us? 6 MS. KUDLA: Sure. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Kind of slower. 8 MS. KUDLA: The first thing you need 9 to consider is whether the use has been 10 abandoned. The abandonment standard is the 11 necessary elements of abandonment are intent 12 or some act or omission on the part of the 13 owner or holder that clearly manifest the 14 voluntary decision to abandon. The 15 abandonment of the nonconforming use and a 16 consequent termination of any legal right 17 thereto results from the concurrence of 18 facts, circumstances and intention of the 19 owner of the premises or other person 20 entitled to the use. 21 So, what you first need to consider is 22 whether in having the building vacant for an 23 amount of time longer than 18 months 24 resulted in an abandonment, but, in addition
32 1 to the time period you also have to consider 2 at the same time the intent of the property 3 owner. And some evidence of the intent of 4 the property owner to continue that use was 5 presented in the form of a letter indicating 6 that marketing of that building for the same 7 use continued from the time that the 8 building was vacated until the present time. 9 So, first, you would need to consider 10 whether there was or was not abandonment of 11 the use. In the event that you determine 12 there was abandonment of the use, then what 13 the Petitioner would be seeking and what has 14 also been noticed as of a potential use 15 variance is to permit outside storage in an 16 I-1 district. 17 In the event that you find that the 18 use was abandoned, then you need to consider 19 the undue hardship standards of a use 20 variance. 21 In the event that you find the use was 22 not abandoned, you need to go back to the 23 standard that we were originally discussing 24 which is not a practical difficulty or undue
33 1 hardship, but just whether or not the Board 2 finds that the proposed use is equally 3 appropriate or more appropriate to the 4 district and the existing conforming use -- 5 existing nonconforming use, I should say. 6 MS. WORKING: Nonconforming use? 7 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. That time 9 it flowed a little bit better for me. So, I 10 appreciate you going through that again on 11 that second time. 12 MS. KUDLA: No problem. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, it looks 14 like as Member Ghannam had pointed out, our 15 first decision is to basically decide if 16 this property was abandoned or not 17 abandoned. So, I will open up comments at 18 this time for anyone who wants to make a 19 comment regarding that particular piece of 20 the case. Member Bauer? 21 MEMBER BAUER: From all the 22 correspondence and everything, there is no 23 proof that it was abandoned by the 24 Ordinance.
34 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Ibe? 2 MEMBER IBE: I will concur with the 3 last Board Member because based on the 4 elements on what it would need to determine 5 abandonment, the intent of the previous 6 owner I think carries more weight here. And 7 the letter written tells us that they have 8 been trying to market this property 9 consistently. And the parties who abandoned 10 that continued in that light. So, it is in 11 my opinion of the facts as presented that 12 there was no abandonment in this case. 13 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. I 15 would very much tend to agree, the evidence 16 that was presented shows an intent to not 17 abandon the property. So, if someone wants 18 to make a motion to that effect. I see a 19 lot of head nodding. Member Ibe? 20 MEMBER IBE: I move that the Board 21 find that the previous owner did not abandon 22 the variance that was previously granted. 23 MS. KUDLA: The existing. 24 MEMBER IBE: The existing
35 1 nonconforming use. Thank you very much. 2 MS. KUDLA: You are welcome. 3 MEMBER IBE: The existing 4 nonconforming use of the property as was 5 indicated in the document before us. The 6 facts point to a great intent of 7 non-abandonment, thus I would move that the 8 Board rule that the property was not 9 abandon. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will second 11 that motion. There is a motion by Member 12 Ibe and a motion by myself. 13 If you could please call the roll on 14 that motion. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 16 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 20 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 24 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
36 1 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 2 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now, the Board 4 has before us, as I understand it, basically 5 whether or not we find this proposed use 6 equally as appropriate as the prior use, the 7 proposed use by this applicant. 8 MS. KUDLA: Equally or more 9 appropriate. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Equally or more 11 appropriate? 12 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Of course. Any 14 comment? 15 MEMBER IBE: I guess it's one or the 16 other. 17 MEMBER GHANNAM: I was going to ask a 18 question. How would you address that 19 particular question that we have to rule on? 20 MR. COUCH: If I can brief your memory 21 of the surrounding areas of the property. 22 Across the street is fuel refinery where 23 trucks are 24/7 trucking, gas in and out all 24 night long onto Grand River. It's directly
37 1 across the street. 2 Kitty-corner to that property there is 3 a U-Haul dealership with big U-Haul trucks 4 parked out front. Behind us, the adjacent 5 property there is multi-tenant spaces across 6 the field and there are cube vans parked 7 back there. They have their own cube vans. 8 There are vehicles parked back there all the 9 time. 10 If you go to the south of the 11 property, there is a poured wall company and 12 a foundation company that has been there for 13 40 years and they have cranes and excavators 14 parked in there for the last 30 years. 15 You go two more lots down from that or 16 three more down there is an RBC Industries, 17 I believe it's called. It's a machine and 18 tool factory. They are open at 5:00 in the 19 morning and they are open until 10:00 p.m. 20 Across the street from that you have 21 all multi-tenant spaces where there are 22 semis back in the loading docks several 23 hours of the day. So, my use of this 24 property is not going to be for selling to
38 1 the public or manufacturing products or 2 anything like that. It's going to be for my 3 personal company vehicles to maybe pull my 4 trucks in here if they're not on the job, 5 which hopefully business will be good and 6 we'll be on the job. So, just to park there 7 and have a nice shop. 8 There is a nice home in the front. 9 We're going to beautify the home in the 10 front and we're also intending to put a 11 privacy fence all the way around the whole 12 chain link fence that exist. We'll go eight 13 feet tall. You won't even be able to see 14 into our yard. We will do a natural earth 15 tone color. Stain the fence so that it 16 probably will be less of an eye sore than 17 anything around the whole area. 18 MEMBER GHANNAM: If we approve this, 19 would you agree with the requirement that 20 everything would have to have to be stored 21 within the fenced or gated area of your 22 premises? 23 MR. COUCH: Yes. It's a three acre 24 yard. If I fill that up I am doing pretty
39 1 good. 2 MEMBER GHANNAM: I got one question 3 for our counsel. If we also approve this 4 would this be indefinite, this variance? 5 MS. KUDLA: It will be, yes. It runs 6 with the land. 7 MR. COUCH: I also want to make this 8 more comfortable. I have been around the 9 city of Novi. I have done a lot of work in 10 the City of Novi at Twelve and Haggerty 11 areas and Beck west of North Corporate Park. 12 So, Robin knows me as well as CJ and Maureen 13 and Al know me very well. I comply with all 14 the rules they have had over the last six 15 years very well. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you, sir. 17 We should bring character witnesses in. 18 Then I could just go off that. 19 I appreciate the answer regarding the 20 surrounding community, but it appears that 21 what we are really looking at is how your 22 use will compare to the prior use. It being 23 equally appropriate or more appropriate than 24 that prior use and I think that's where
40 1 Member Ghannam was trying to go as well as 2 the consistency with the surrounding area. 3 So, can you comment on that a little 4 more? 5 MR. COUCH: It would be more 6 appropriate. Actually it would be not 7 nearly as any traffic. The last people that 8 were there they would sell to big companies 9 pipe and catch basins and manholes. So, 10 they had semis in and out of there all day 11 long from 7 a.m. to 4:30 p.m., six days a 12 week. I won't be doing that because I am 13 just using it to park vehicles. I am not 14 using it to sell product and material. All 15 my things are delivered on-site, so I don't 16 store anything other than my trucks there 17 and maybe a couple things. 18 I won't be having people coming 19 in and buying stuff and then loading their 20 trucks. It will all be private use for my 21 company. So, does that answer it a little 22 better? 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 24 MR. COUCH: Then also, we're going to
41 1 beautify it so it's not going to be like a 2 Home Depot running in and out. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 4 Member comments? 5 Then, I'll go ahead and make a motion 6 that in case number: 08-019 filed by RMJ 7 Development for 25280 Seeley Road that we 8 find that the Petitioner, the proposed use 9 of the Petitioner is equally or more 10 appropriate than the previous use based on 11 his testimony tonight, site visits and the 12 documentation provided to us by the City and 13 the Petitioner. 14 MEMBER GHANNAM: Second that. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other 16 comments on that motion or any issues from 17 our counsel? Or are the findings of fact 18 correct? 19 MS. KUDLA: I would add more, a little 20 bit more to the findings of fact indicating 21 that there was various consistency with 22 surrounding, current surrounding conditions 23 and that the previous use had more traffic 24 and storage outside of this use.
42 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Then I will 2 amend the motion to state also that the 3 Board finds that the proposed use will also 4 be consistent with the surrounding area and 5 that part of the reason we find that the 6 proposed use is equal or more appropriate 7 than the prior use is because of the lower 8 amount of activity at the site, the traffic 9 and the sales being lower as well, sales in 10 terms of numbers not dollars hopefully. 11 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will agree with 12 that and second that. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the seconder 14 agrees. 15 Mr. Fox? 16 MR. FOX: Maybe we should add 17 something as far as the condition that is 18 script into the comments about all storage 19 must be maintained within the fenced in area 20 as part of that motion. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And we will 22 condition it upon the storage of any 23 equipment, the vehicles and building 24 materials insofar as being contained within
43 1 the fenced in area of the property. 2 MEMBER GHANNAM: I will agree with 3 that too. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Krieger? 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: The Petitioner stated 6 that he would beautify the front area and 7 enclose the area with a fence. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And that 9 beautification of the property also lends 10 the Board to believe that this proposed use 11 is equal or more appropriate than the prior 12 use. 13 MEMBER GHANNAM: I'll second that too. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Was that Book 2? 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sorry? 16 MEMBER BAUER: Was that Book 2? 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yeah. Do you 18 need another piece of paper? All right, if 19 there are no other comments I'll ask Ms. 20 Working to call the roll. 21 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 23 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 24 MEMBER GHANNAM: Aye.
44 1 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 2 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: And Member Bauer? 8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes 10 6-0. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You are all set 12 with your interpretations and everything 13 else from the Board and best of luck to you. 14 MR. COUCH: Thank you very much. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Robin, did you 16 get the conditions or would you like me to 17 write them down as well? 18 MS. WORKING: I have them, thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I even lost 20 track of the conditions. 21 22 We'll call case number: 08-029 23 filed by Mr. Chawney for Villagewood 24 Condominiums. Is the Petitioner here
45 1 tonight? We'll move that to the end of the 2 agenda. 3 4 We'll call case number: 08-033 5 filed by Michael Kahm of Singh Development 6 for 27475 Huron Drive, Waltonwood at Twelve 7 Oaks. The Petitioner is requesting a two 8 sign extension variance for one real estate 9 construction sign and one leasing sign. 10 Sign A is located on Huron Circle and Sign B 11 is located north side of Mackinac Boulevard. 12 The property is zoned RM-1 and is located 13 south of Twelve Mile and east of Novi Road. 14 Good evening. 15 MR. KAHM: Good evening. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Would you raise 17 your hand and be sworn in by our Board 18 Secretary. 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Do you swear or 20 affirm in case number: 08-033, to tell the 21 truth or affirm in this case? 22 MR. KAHM: I do. 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead and
46 1 state your name and address and proceed with 2 your case. 3 MR. KAHM: Michael Kahm, Singh 4 Development Company. 7125 Orchard Lake 5 Road, West Bloomfield, Michigan 48322. 6 As many of the Board may recall, this 7 is not the first time that we have been 8 before you to ask for an extension of our 9 signage, and I guess I don't like being here 10 any more than you like me being here. 11 Unfortunately the market from last year when 12 I came before you to ask for an extension 13 has actually gotten worse. So, we are here 14 this evening to ask for your consideration 15 to allow us to continue to keep the two 16 signs that we have at Waltonwood facility at 17 the mall. One is the ring road and one is 18 on the finger road. 19 We continue to have them for, I think 20 I asked two years, but I think it was 21 published as one year. Al, is that right? 22 I noticed in the advertisement it was 23 different than what I asked for. We had 24 this conversation last year and you may not
47 1 remember it, about the two years versus one 2 year. That's why I asked for two years. 3 MS. WORKING: I don't see it in the 4 notice. I don't see a time frame in the 5 notice. 6 MR. KAHM: Maybe I misread it. But 7 anyway, we were asking for two years only 8 because you get sick of seeing me. I am 9 just throwing it out there because we 10 discussed it last year. 11 If I may, not to complicate this any 12 more than it already is, Al and I had a 13 conversation about this idea and I don't 14 know if it's appropriate to discuss it on 15 this agenda, but at least I am going to ask 16 in case it might be. We own the property 17 adjacent to this that fronts on Twelve Mile 18 Road, and we would like if it's possible to 19 discuss this evening or at a different time 20 to move the sign that is currently on the 21 ring road up to that location. We think we 22 might get a better traffic and better 23 exposure on Twelve Mile than on the ring 24 road.
48 1 We seem for some reason to get pretty 2 good traffic on the finger road, but not on 3 the portion of the ring road that we are on. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I don't believe 5 we are able to discuss that, but I will let 6 our counsel go ahead and answer that for 7 you. 8 MS. KUDLA: No, we wouldn't. You have 9 to first make a determination to the 10 administration whether or not that was 11 permitted under the sign ordinance to post 12 this sign on another property. If they 13 found that it wasn't, you have to come back. 14 If he is still proposes wanting it on 15 another piece of property, come back as 16 another variance proposing it on this other 17 piece of property. 18 MR. KAHM: Okay, I thought I would 19 ask. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We'll decide 21 what we have before us and you can take that 22 back and decide if that option is another 23 thing you want to pursue. 24 I will pass this along to our Board
49 1 Secretary and ask her to read any 2 correspondence into the record. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 4 08-033, 14 notices were mailed, zero 5 approvals and zero objections. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there anyone 7 in the audience that wishes to make a 8 comment on this case? Seeing none, we'll 9 close the opportunity for comments and open 10 it up for the City to make comments. 11 MR. FOX: City staff has looked at 12 this and we're not in support of this 13 variance request due to lack of practical 14 difficulty, demonstrable practical 15 difficulty. They have been granted seven 16 extensions on one sign already. Five 17 extensions on the other sign that they are 18 requesting at this time. 19 It's also noted that there is already 20 permanent signage on the property in two 21 locations as well as the two temporary signs 22 that they are asking for. And by the 23 Ordinance a temporary sign is only good 24 until 30 days after the property has been
50 1 leased or sold, which that property has been 2 leased for quite a while. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. 4 Anyone else from the City? 5 Then I will open it up for any Board 6 questions, comments or action. Member 7 Ghannam? 8 MEMBER GHANNAM: I would ask you the 9 same question, sir. What is your practical 10 difficulty in this case? It appears that 11 you have been granted multiple variances 12 over a period of time for the two signs. 13 You already have permanent signage, so what 14 is the practical difficulty? 15 MR. KAHM: The operative word there 16 that Chris mentioned was leased. At this 17 point we're not leased. Our occupancy is in 18 the low 80s unfortunately and we are in an 19 unusual location because we're on the ring 20 road of the mall, so the traffic we get is 21 precious to us. We're not in a major 22 thoroughfare where we might get far more 23 exposure on the signage that we have. So, 24 any signage that would identify the fact
51 1 that we are offering senior housing options 2 is very important to us. 3 Unfortunately, as we discussed last 4 year, the economy has been pretty tough on 5 us, so anything we can get to help us get 6 the property up to a sustainable lease 7 occupancy, that's all we're trying to do. 8 And I agree, once it's leased we should take 9 the signs down. We're just not at a 10 sustained occupancy. 11 MEMBER GHANNAM: Is your 12 interpretation it has to be fully leased 13 before you take it down? 14 MR. KAHM: No, usually sustained is 15 identified as 90, 95 percent. I know in 16 other communities we were at 95 percent, but 17 I don't know if Novi has a definition. 18 Canton as an example is 95, but I am not 19 trying to use their standards for Novi, I am 20 just giving you an example. 21 MS. KUDLA: Administration is 22 indicating that there is no definition of 23 leased in the Ordinance. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: As long as I
52 1 remember having these discussions regarding 2 leased and how many houses in a subdivision, 3 there has never been a definitive answer. 4 So, I will leave it open to your 5 interpretation, Member Ghannam. 6 Any other comments or questions? 7 MEMBER GHANNAM: I don't have any 8 other questions. Thank you. 9 MEMBER BAUER: Not being continually 10 leased, isn't it an actual factor that since 11 this living memory care is close to the last 12 thing you want to do on earth, so you are 13 going to have a continued turnover? 14 MR. KAHM: Well, at some point you 15 reach a point where the continuing turnover, 16 your people leaving generally equals the 17 people coming in. We haven't reached that 18 point yet. That's what we are trying to get 19 to. 20 Under normal circumstances I agree, we 21 should have reached that point. In an 22 economy that we started in we probably would 23 have been there, but unfortunately we are 24 victims of -- a lot of our tenants the
53 1 children help them in the rent payments. 2 Children are having difficulty of their own 3 and a lot of what is happening is a lot of 4 parents are going back and living with the 5 kids at home. 6 On the other side of the spectrum, a 7 lot of the people who will want to move in 8 who are independent are in single family 9 homes they no longer can take care of by 10 themselves. So, we are kind of in a little 11 vicious spiral in both ends of our continuum 12 and just we're victims of economic 13 circumstances. 14 So, that's a considerable hardship. 15 Whether or not that's considered by the 16 Board as justifiable, I'll leave that up to 17 you. That's the situation. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Ibe? 19 MEMBER IBE: Sir, on the sign that you 20 talk about, could you please shed some more 21 light for us on any other activities, 22 marketing activity that your company do to 23 promote the product that you are trying to 24 sell here?
54 1 MR. KAHM: You may notice we have 2 flyers in the newspaper. Why advertise 3 regularly. We send out mailers regularly. 4 We actually had the zealous staff at our 5 project actually put a banner on the 6 building and didn't realize that they 7 weren't allowed to do that and it had to be 8 taken down. Actually it was very effective. 9 What it does is it draws attention. 10 That's all we are trying to do is draw 11 attention for a product to get people in the 12 door. Once we get them in the door, it's 13 our job to sell them. We just want to get 14 them in the door. And it's a challenge in 15 that location, so we have to try to capture 16 as much traffic as we can. Actually the 17 banner worked wonderfully. But we 18 understand it's not allowed. 19 MEMBER IBE: Just a brief followup. 20 Do you keep records of the magic of 21 marketing in terms of how you get your 22 clients? Do you find that people generally 23 come there simply because of the sign or do 24 they respond better to the, say, the use of
55 1 the other marketing activities? Is there 2 any data you have to help me or this Board 3 compose what you looking for? 4 MR. KAHM: Yes. And actually we do 5 track that. When people come in the door we 6 ask them how did you find out about us. The 7 data that we have and, in fact, I looked it 8 up before I came because I thought you might 9 ask that question. It is predominantly the 10 signage. 11 MEMBER IBE: I have nothing further, 12 Mr. Chair. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I'm sorry? 14 MEMBER IBE: I have nothing further. 15 Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Wrobel? 17 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 18 Most of the questions I was going to ask Mr. 19 Ibe asked already. How can you really tell? 20 You are saying that this is how you are 21 getting the -- people are knowing about the 22 place, but I don't see any documentation on 23 that or anything presented. So, until I see 24 something like that I am skeptical, being a
56 1 real world person. 2 I understand the need for a sign. 3 Eighty percent to me is high is good in 4 today's market, but I understand what you 5 are saying, there is another 20 percent 6 there. Unfortunately we in Novi do not have 7 that Ordinance. I think that is something, 8 hint, hint, that we should look at down the 9 road in establishing levels so we know what 10 to deal with. 11 But all these things being said, I 12 find it difficult to allow two signs. I 13 could maybe support one sign, which one I am 14 not sure yet. I know it's a difficult time, 15 but it's been up there a long time. 16 Perpetually in this type of industry it 17 could be up there forever. You can never 18 hit a hundred percent even when times are 19 good. So I would find it difficult to 20 support two signs. 21 I will listen to what the rest of my 22 colleagues say before I make a decision. 23 Thank you. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you,
57 1 Member Wrobel. 2 Is there a question? Is there a 3 question? I am thinking along the same 4 lines as Member Wrobel. I definitely 5 understand the economic hard times right 6 now. Can you explain a little more how the 7 economy would kind of depend on your -- your 8 occupancy would depend on the economy? I am 9 trying to figure that out a little more. It 10 seems like either people would need this 11 type of assistance and memory care and 12 independent living or they don't. 13 So, I am kind of having a hard time 14 understanding how the economy would play a 15 role in that. 16 MR. KAHM: Well, you are right. Our 17 use is pretty much a need driven sort of a 18 facility. What happens as I mentioned 19 earlier is because we are -- this is a 20 high-end development. This is not 21 subsidized housing. So, people, if 22 economics are a constraint for them they 23 could choose something of a lesser cost. 24 We deliberately designed a high-end
58 1 development here. We felt the location in 2 the city warranted it. On the independent 3 side typically when we get people coming in 4 on the independent departments, they're at 5 the point in their lives where they really 6 can't take care of typically a single family 7 home. Normally one of the spouses has 8 passed away unfortunately, and they really 9 can't handle all the maintenance, so they 10 need to get in a facility that has more of 11 their needs taken care of daily, has 12 security. They don't have to worry about 13 all those things. But they need to sell the 14 house because of the money they are going to 15 use to pay the rent is in the inequity in 16 the home. And in our economy homes just 17 aren't selling. That's on the one side. 18 On the more need driven side, the 19 assisted living, those people definitely 20 need to be there, but a lot of times because 21 it's fairly costly because of the staff 22 involved, the children are assisting the 23 parents in the payments. When the children 24 are strapped for money they have to make a
59 1 choice, and what's happening with us is a 2 lot of the parents are now moving back. I 3 mean, going back 50 years ago that used to 4 be very common. The parents are moving in 5 with the children and the children are 6 taking care of them. And that phenomenon is 7 fairly recent and it's all driven by the 8 economic conditions here in Michigan. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: How long has 10 each sign been up? Seven years, and we're 11 talking about one year extensions that we 12 have made for each time? 13 MS. WORKING: They are all listed in 14 the agenda. The signs were called out and 15 identified as Sign A and B and each of them 16 are called out separately for how many 17 extensions that they have been granted. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Am I assuming 19 that ZBA 99 would be 1999? 20 MS. WORKING: Correct. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And it would 22 have been up before that even. 23 MS. WORKING: Well, the ZBA granted a 24 permanent variance, you will see in your
60 1 packet in 2000 for this sign, Waltonwood at 2 Twelve Oaks. This sign in your packet the 3 ZBA did not have to grant a variance because 4 it was allowed by Ordinance. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Correct. I am 6 talking about the leasing signs. 7 MS. WORKING: Right. The leasing sign 8 -- 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Before the ZBA 10 would have even seen the leasing signs they 11 would have been up for a period of time. 12 MR. AMOLSCH: One was a construction 13 identification sign was permitted by the 14 code -- 15 MS. WORKING: They converted to a 16 leasing sign. 17 MR. AMOLSCH: Then the other real 18 estate sign was approved by the Board in 19 2000 or so. 20 The construction identification sign was 21 valid until the last certificate of 22 occupancy. They eventually combined the two 23 signs into one case. 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The point being
61 1 that it's been earlier than even in the 2 Zoning Board? 3 MR. AMOLSCH: Correct. The Ordinance 4 now permits apartment complexes to have one 5 16 square foot 5 foot high real estate sign. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 7 comments? 8 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer, part 9 of a discussion we were having is that with 10 the approved signage the City doesn't 11 regulate verbiage, and that we often 12 encourage applicants to think about what 13 they are saying on their signs so that it 14 does have an impact on the community since 15 it's permanent. And I don't know if this 16 Petitioner has thought about that, so that 17 these temporary signs, which is what they 18 were intended to be, and considering they 19 have had a length of time here in the City, 20 but perhaps revisiting the permanent signage 21 verbiage might be a consideration by this 22 Petitioner. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other Board 24 Members? Member Krieger?
62 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: Have you thought of 2 that? 3 MR. KAHM: No, but we could. I think 4 you are indicating that we could put, as an 5 example, independent living, assisted living 6 memory care right on the permanent sign as I 7 understood what you were saying. 8 MS. WORKING: Of course, keep in mind 9 that within the approved square footage of 10 the existing sign. 11 MR. KAHM: Sure, I understand. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Unless they 13 would want to come back for the permanent 14 sign. 15 MS. WORKING: We were trying to 16 creatively think out of the box so that this 17 isn't another case in 2009 for the Board to 18 consider. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am having a 20 very difficult time looking to approve these 21 signs, when at the same time I understand 22 the economic impact that things are having 23 on our community and all communities in 24 Southeast, Michigan. So, I would almost be
63 1 willing to extend the signs for six months 2 for the purpose of exploring other marketing 3 tactics as well as exploring the creative 4 suggestion of the City and others that may 5 be done. 6 As far as how long these have been 7 here, I think it is time for the sign to 8 come down. I am not sure after this long 9 that the elements of practical difficulty 10 start to diminish very rapidly and they do 11 become more or less permanent signs, which I 12 have an issue with. So, that would be my 13 recommendation to the Board at this time 14 with a six-month extension with the 15 understanding that unless they can prove 16 some real, real hard core practical 17 difficulty at that time, I am not sure that 18 I would be able to support it any further 19 after that, and I would ask them to explore 20 other marketing campaigns. 21 Member Wrobel? 22 MEMBER WROBEL: I agree with you 23 somewhat on that. Mr. Kahm, if I remember 24 right you said the ring road sign location
64 1 doesn't do you much good, it was the other 2 sign? 3 MR. KAHM: That was the reason we were 4 asking if you could move it. Of the two 5 signs that's the one we like to relocate. 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Given that and given 7 your six-month option which I can live with, 8 I would like to see just a six month option 9 on Sign B, whereas the applicant himself 10 said the sign, Sign A isn't really doing 11 much good, so why extend it for six months 12 there. I could live with that if we just 13 allowed six months on B and deny A. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. Did you 15 want to make the motion or would anyone 16 else? Or would you like me to? 17 MEMBER WROBEL: Sure. 18 MR. KAHM: Am I allowed to speak? Or 19 no? 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Not at this 21 point. The Board is deliberating towards a 22 decision. 23 In this case, case number: 08-033, I 24 would move that the Board approve the
65 1 request for Sign A. 2 MEMBER BAUER: B. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sign B for the 4 time period of six months given that the 5 Petitioner has established some marketing 6 practical difficulties regarding the site 7 due to the layout of the road. The sign not 8 being on the frontage of Twelve Mile, and 9 given the fact that the granting of this 10 late of an extension would provide 11 substantial justice to this Petitioner as 12 well as surrounding property owners. 13 MEMBER WROBEL: Second. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 15 motion and a second. Any other comments? 16 MS. WORKING: Would you restate that 17 one more time for me? 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sure. Grant 19 approval for Sign A. 20 MEMBER BAUER: B. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: B, in this case 22 for a time period of six months given the 23 Petitioner establishing a practical 24 difficulty regarding the ring road and not
66 1 being fronted on a main thoroughfare as well 2 as the economic difficulties presented. 3 MS. WORKING: Sign B is located not on 4 the ring road. So, I'm not sure whether 5 that practical difficulty would be 6 applicable there. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am applying 8 Twelve Mile Road as my thoroughfare in that. 9 In my thoughts if I am allowed to do that. 10 I think that was the general consensus of 11 the Board that it's not on a main artery of 12 the City of Novi. 13 MEMBER WROBEL: I have a question to 14 our legal staff. If we go ahead and allow 15 Sign B for six more months to give them an 16 opportunity to look at other options, can we 17 say this will be the final time we will 18 extend it and at that time that sign has got 19 to come out whether they determine other 20 options or not? Do you want to address 21 that? 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If I might 23 reiterate my comments from earlier when I 24 basically stated that unless a higher
67 1 practical difficulty can be found since the 2 length of time that this has been on that 3 site, that practical difficulty of trying to 4 market it kind of diminishes. It seems like 5 there needs to be other things out there, so 6 unless substantially more facts come out, I 7 would be hard pressed to extend it after 8 that length of time after another six 9 months. So, I am not necessarily saying 10 that I wouldn't, but I would need to see 11 some more evidence. 12 MEMBER WROBEL: I just don't want to 13 see further Boards get this again and, say, 14 well, this is the first time someone is 15 seeing it, let it go another six months. 16 Let it go another six months. I am trying to 17 put an end to it one way or another. 18 MS. KUDLA: There is no way that we 19 can ever technically put an end to it. If 20 he wanted to come back and apply for the 21 same thing over and over, he could do that 22 under the Ordinance. Whether or not we 23 would deny it, you can deny it every time, 24 but you can't limit him from coming back.
68 1 MEMBER WROBEL: Okay, thank you. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the minutes 3 could be part of the case too that we have 4 had this discussion before which Robin is 5 very good at doing. 6 Member Bauer? 7 MEMBER BAUER: Are you going to turn 8 down A? 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I was going to 10 make that separate motion. But I can make 11 that. 12 MS. WORKING: Can we do A and B 13 together on this motion, please? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We can. 15 MS. WORKING: Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would also 17 move that in this case we deny Sign A, given 18 the fact that the Petitioner has not 19 established a practical difficulty in that 20 there is another sign on the property that 21 markets the similar products as well as the 22 fact that there are permanent signs, two of 23 them, one granted by this very Board to 24 identify the property.
69 1 MEMBER WROBEL: I will second that 2 also. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now is everybody 4 happy? 5 MEMBER BAUER: No, but... 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Please call the 7 roll. 8 MS. WORKING: For Sign A the approval 9 for the six month extension. Chairman 10 Fischer? 11 MEMBER IBE: That's Sign B. 12 MS. WORKING: I'm sorry, Sign B. See, 13 I'm starting to say that. I'm sorry, Sign 14 B. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Are we calling 16 the motion separately now? 17 MS. WORKING: It's going to be one 18 motion, but I am going to take -- 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Two roll calls? 20 MS. WORKING: Two separate votes. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It's one motion. 22 MS. KUDLA: One motion one vote. 23 MS. WORKING: Okay. I apologize. 24 It's just that I notified them by calling
70 1 them A and B. 2 MS. KUDLA: You can just make a motion 3 to approve B -- 4 MS. WORKING: Approve B and deny A. 5 MS. KUDLA: Correct. 6 MS. WORKING: So, I am going to do it 7 backwards for you. Motion to deny A and 8 approve B for a period of six months. 9 Chairman Fischer? 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 11 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 12 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 13 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 14 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 15 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 16 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 17 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 18 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 19 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 21 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 6-0. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You are granted 23 a little relief. 24 MR. KAHM: Thank you.
71 1 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am hoping 2 things turn around for you. 3 MR. KAHM: Let me ask a quick 4 question. I still have the option of coming 5 back and discussing with you the Twelve Mile 6 sign? 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Absolutely. 8 From what the City Attorney says you can 9 come back every meeting if you want. We 10 haven't seen you in a while, so I feel a 11 little neglected by you. 12 MR. KAHM: Okay. 13 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We'll go 15 ahead and move on to case number: 08-034 16 Singh Development for Main Street Novi 17 located at 2300 Constitution. 18 The Petitioner is requesting Main 19 Street Village to have a one sign extension 20 variance for an existing real estate sign 21 located south of Potomac Drive in Main 22 Street Village. The property is zoned TC-1 23 and is located south of Grand River Avenue 24 and east of Novi Road.
72 1 If you could be sworn in for this 2 case, please, by our Secretary. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 4 08-034, that you swear or affirm to tell the 5 truth in this case? 6 MR. KAHM: I do. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Name and address 8 again and go ahead. 9 MR. KAHM: Michael Kahm, Singh 10 Development Company, 7125 Orchard Lake Road, 11 West Bloomfield, 48322. 12 Well, the situation at Main Street 13 Village is not that different. I think we 14 pick all the sites in the city that are hard 15 to get to. We had a sign on Grand River for 16 some time and that eventually expired and 17 was no longer granted an extension. So, the 18 sole leasing sign is the one we have on 19 Potomac just south of the intersection of 20 Main and Market streets. It's primarily in 21 front of our second phase of Main Street 22 Village and we are still in that initial 23 lease up stage there. 24 Again, pretty much for a lot of the
73 1 reasons that I just mentioned. Leasing is 2 slower than we like. Again, this is a 3 high-end development relatively speaking in 4 the city and the clientele that is 5 traditionally attracted to Main Street type 6 product, higher-end townhome apartments has 7 been people who were transferees into the 8 area who have come here for temporary living 9 until they find a permanent home and that 10 has traditionally been the large source of 11 our occupancy. 12 Unfortunately, those transferees are 13 coming in for the most part related to the 14 automobile industry, and I don't have to 15 tell you what condition that's in. So, that 16 source of our potential occupants has dried 17 up considerably. So, we are, again, looking 18 to have that lone exposure to our product to 19 be maintained there if we could for an 20 additional year. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will ask the 22 Board Secretary to read any correspondence 23 into the record. 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number
74 1 08-034, 24 notices were mailed with zero 2 approvals and zero objections. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there anyone 4 in the audience that wishes to make a 5 comment on this case? Seeing none, I close 6 any opportunity for comments and open it up 7 to the City. 8 MR. FOX: Again, from the City Staff, 9 we were not in support of this variance 10 request due to similar issues as we did on 11 the last one, the lack of demonstrable 12 practical difficulty. The sign has been 13 granted three extensions, a sixth-month 14 extension in '05, and two 12-month 15 extensions in '06 and '07. Also there is on 16 this property as well, permanent signage 17 along Grand River for this particular 18 project. Thank you. 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you very 20 much. Board Members? Member Wrobel? 21 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 22 What occupancy do you have there right now? 23 MR. KAHM: About 75 percent. 24 MEMBER WROBEL: I don't have as much
75 1 of an issue to extend this for no more than 2 a period of a year based upon they do have 3 an existing sign, but that's on Grand River. 4 This is like the back door entry and driving 5 by there quite often, it's not even a 6 presence on 12 Mile -- excuse me, the Grand 7 River entrance it's not like it's even part 8 of this over here. So there is no 9 identification for coming in off of Main 10 Street. You don't know what you are getting 11 if you are coming from the west or from the 12 north. So, I think there is more of a need 13 for sign there. I understand its need for 14 that occupancy rate, but I wouldn't approve 15 it for more than a year. Thank you. 16 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you. 17 Other Board Members? You kind of stole the 18 words right out of my mouth in that sense 19 given the location of this sign. 20 And given the use for me, I think it's a 21 different use than the prior signs we are 22 talking about too, whereas before it seemed 23 like people would seek out some of the 24 products that were offered on the previous
76 1 case. But in this case it's the apartment 2 market and townhouse market is very 3 competitive in these times. So, I would be 4 willing to support this as well. 5 Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah, under the 7 conditions I back you up and say maybe 8 another year. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: My only one 10 comment would be do we need "The developer 11 of the year" on top? What year was that 12 for? 13 MR. KAHM: 2006, I believe. If you 14 like we can take that down. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will move that 16 in case number: 08-034 filed by Michael 17 Kahm of Singh Development for Main Street of 18 Novi located at 2300 Constitution that we 19 approve the Petitioner's request given the 20 fact that the sign is tucked away from a 21 major thoroughfare of the city and that the 22 problem is not self-created in the current 23 market at this time due to the economic 24 downturn of the state. That there is no
77 1 increase of fire, danger or public safety 2 given the location of this sign, and that 3 property values will not be diminished 4 within the surrounding area. I would move 5 that this variance is good for a period of 6 one year and it is conditional upon the 7 removal of the developer of this sign -- 8 "developer of the year" portion of the sign 9 which takes away from the signs aesthetics. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 12 motion by Member Fischer and a second by 13 Member Bauer. 14 MS. KUDLA: Can we interrupt before 15 the vote? We were discussing that there is 16 a provision that would allow a reduction in 17 sign size that would then make it a 18 permissible sign. We just wanted to make 19 the Board aware of that Ordinance. 20 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead. 21 MS. KUDLA: You were seeking to 22 regulate verbiage in the motion, was that 23 part of the motion? 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: No, we are
78 1 asking that the top portion be taken off 2 because it's an extremity and it's 3 aesthetically not very pleasing. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Attachment. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. So, we're 6 not regulating the verbiage. We're just 7 taking off a piece of the sign. If they 8 want to put it somewhere else they can. 9 Is there something you wanted to share 10 with us then? 11 MS. WORKING: No, that was it. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The provision 13 piece? 14 MS. KUDLA: There is a section in the 15 Ordinance. Was it 16 square feet? 16 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, this is the same 17 case as the Waltonwood case. The Ordinance 18 allows a 16 square 5 foot high real estate 19 sign. Of course, that's why he is here 20 today because he needs a variance for size. 21 This originally started out as a 22 construction sign like the Waltonwood sign 23 did, then eventually construction stopped, 24 therefore, now we call it just a real estate
79 1 sign. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Got you. 3 MEMBER GHANNAM: What is the variance 4 between what is allowed and what is 5 currently there? 6 MR. AMOLSCH: The sign is 64 square 7 feet and we allow 16, so whatever the math 8 is there. 9 MS. KUDLA: So, by reducing it it 10 could be permanent? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, they could have it 12 as long as they have a real estate sign. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am comfortable 14 given the size of the complex with the size 15 at this point. Maybe that's something, once 16 again, that they might want to look at 17 before coming before the Board again would 18 be my comments to that recommendation. 19 Please call the roll. 20 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam?
80 1 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 3 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 7 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 6-0. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: You have another 10 year for that sign. Best of luck. 11 MR. KAHM: Thank you. 12 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: At this 14 time we'll call case number: 08-035 filed 15 by Larry Kelly and Greg Hudas of Signature 16 Associates. The petitioner is present 17 today? We'll put that at the end of the 18 agenda. 19 20 We'll call case number ZBA 08-036 21 filed by James Rohlfing of the Gaman Group. 22 The Petitioner is requesting a temporary 23 special land use permit renewal for the 24 placement of a temporary construction
81 1 trailer located at 39675 12 Mile Road from 2 July 8th, 2008 through July 8, 2009. 3 Petitioner was issued the first temporary 4 use for twelve months and a twelve month 5 renewal as well. The property is zoned B-2 6 and located south of 12 Mile Road and east 7 of M-5. 8 If you can raise your hand and be 9 sworn in by the Secretary of the Board. 10 MEMBER KRIEGER: In case number: 11 08-036 do you swear or affirm to tell the 12 truth in this case? 13 MR. ROHLFING: I do. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: State your name 15 and address and proceed with your case. 16 MR. ROHLFING: James Rohlfing. 21000 17 Ryan Road, Warren, Michigan 48091. 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Go ahead. 19 MR. ROHLFING: We still don't have a 20 building permit for that Holiday Express. 21 It will be two years in September. That's 22 the reason I am back before the Board to get 23 an extension for the construction trailer. 24 They are threatening to give us a permit by
82 1 the end of this week so that will certainly 2 speed things along. That has kind of been 3 the scenario up until this point. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Anything else? 5 MR. ROHLFING: That's it. 6 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will ask the 7 Board Secretary to record any 8 correspondence. 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: In the case number: 10 08-306, nine notices were mailed. Zero 11 approvals and zero objections. 12 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will ask is 13 there anyone in the audience that wishes to 14 make a comment in this case? Seeing none, I 15 will close the opportunity for comments and 16 ask the City if they have any comments? 17 MR. FOX: City staff would just like 18 to reiterate that this is a request for an 19 extension, the building official has the 20 power to give them two years worth of 21 temporary use of the construction trailer. 22 They are now at the end of that two year 23 time period. They have to go now to the ZBA 24 and request an extension of that time.
83 1 Based on the phase of the construction 2 going on on that project, we are inclined to 3 request that maybe that be a six month time 4 frame instead of a 12 month. We don't think 5 the construction trailer is going to be 6 necessary, the construction is going to go 7 on necessarily long enough for a 12 month 8 extension. That is our recommendation, our 9 comment. 10 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can you clarify 11 that a little bit? What do you mean by 12 that? 13 MR. FOX: Based on where the project 14 is at this point and what they are going to 15 be required to do and what we are going to 16 need them to do, we are going to be pushing 17 them for site work and things of that nature 18 before the end of the year before it gets 19 cold again. The last few month of this 20 variance it's going to be all frozen. The 21 site work should be completed by that time. 22 This particular project, this 23 construction trailer is going to have to be 24 moved all over the place during the site
84 1 work. We think in the six month time frame 2 the building should be pretty much done. The 3 site should be pretty much taken care of by 4 then. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other 6 comments? I'll open it up for Board 7 discussion. Member Ghannam? 8 MEMBER GHANNAM: Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9 How long will you need this trailer for, 10 sir? 11 MR. ROHLFING: Probably four months, 12 three to four months, depending on the 13 issuance of the actual building permit. 14 It's been almost two years since we first 15 applied. 16 MEMBER GHANNAM: So, you think by the 17 end of the year as the building official 18 suggest would be sufficient? 19 MR. ROHLFING: Oh, definitely, yes. 20 MEMBER GHANNAM: Say by December 31st? 21 MR. ROHLFING: Yes, by all means. 22 MEMBER GHANNAM: And if you didn't 23 have this variance would it create a 24 hardship for you in terms of completing the
85 1 work that you have there? 2 MR. ROHLFING: At the state of 3 construction, and yeah, we are not able to 4 move inside of the building yet due to codes 5 and just the pace of the construction, we 6 are not quite there yet. We still need it 7 for a short time. 8 MEMBER GHANNAM: Is your construction 9 on track in terms of timing? 10 MEMBER GHANNAM: No, no. We are about 11 a year and a half behind. We have got 12 issues with the franchise. Like I say, it's 13 been -- this project should have been 14 probably an eight to ten month project from 15 start to finish. But there has been a few 16 issues. We hopefully worked through 17 everything with the planner. We should be 18 good to go. 19 MEMBER GHANNAM: I have no problems 20 supporting your request. That's all the 21 questions I have. Thank you, sir. 22 MS. KUDLA: I just want to point out 23 that it is a practical difficulty not undue 24 hardship standard.
86 1 MEMBER GHANNAM: Right. 2 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have no 3 comments other than what Member Ghannam 4 said. 5 Member Bauer? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Since he agrees by the 7 end of the year let's make it that. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Member Ghannam? 9 MEMBER GHANNAM: I am ready to make a 10 motion if you are ready. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All you. 12 MEMBER GHANNAM: I'll move that in 13 case number: 08-036 filed by James Rohlfing 14 for the Gaman Group for 39675 Twelve Mile 15 Road that we approve the request for a 16 variance until December 31st, 2008, given 17 the practical difficulty that the petitioner 18 has established in that there have been 19 delays due to franchise issues, not the 20 creation of the Petitioner themselves and 21 that it will need longer than that period of 22 time to complete their work to move inside 23 the building. I think it meets the spirit 24 of the zoning Ordinance. Certainly will
87 1 have no effect on the property values or 2 diminishing property values. There would be 3 no increase of fire, danger or public 4 safety. There would be no issues with light 5 or air provided to agent properties and they 6 are unique circumstance as I just suggested. 7 MR. WROBEL: Second. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 9 motion by Member Ghannam and a second by 10 Member Wrobel. 11 Any further comment on the case or 12 motion? Seeing none, Ms. Working, will you 13 please call the roll. 14 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve an 15 extension for a temporary land use permit. 16 Member Ghannam? 17 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 19 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 21 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 22 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe?
88 1 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: Motion is granted 6-0. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There you go for 6 six months. Best of luck to you guys. 7 MR. ROHLFING: Thank you. 8 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right. 10 I will call one last time for ZBA 08-029, if 11 Villagewood Place Condos is in the atrium 12 area? It appears not. As Board Members 13 will remember that this case was tabled in 14 June because the Petitioner was not present. 15 So, it's the second time that he has not 16 shown up. I would -- 17 MS. WORKING: Excuse me, Chairman 18 Fischer? 19 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Just to solidify our 21 records, may I look at the file to make sure 22 that he was sent a new notification letter? 23 I did speak with the gentleman, but I would 24 like to see that we documented it as well.
89 1 Thank you. 2 I would like the record to reflect on 3 June 12th that Mr. Chawney was mailed a 4 letter indicating that he would appear at 5 7:00 p.m. on July 8, and that he or a 6 representative should attend the meeting to 7 have this case heard. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, it appears 9 we have given him two chances. I would just 10 for discussion sake, I would prefer at this 11 point to see a denial of this case given the 12 lack of practical difficulty that he didn't 13 show up to prove. 14 So, seeing people agree with that, I 15 will go ahead move that in case number: 16 ZBA-08-029 filed by Mr. Chawney of 17 Villagewood Place Condominiums that the 18 Board deny the request as stated due to the 19 Petitioner not showing up or sending a 20 representative to explain the case. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 22 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It's a motion by 23 Chairman Fischer. Seconded by Member Bauer. 24 Ms. Working, will you please call the
90 1 roll. 2 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 4 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 5 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 7 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 8 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 9 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 10 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 11 MS. KRIEGER: Yes. 12 MS. WORKING: And Member Wrobel? 13 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Motion to deny request 15 passes 6-0. 16 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Our last case is 18 case 08-035. Is that case here? Seeing no 19 one, what is the Board's pleasure with this 20 case? 21 MEMBER BAUER: (Unintelligible). 22 MS. WORKING: That was the first time. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Correct. So, we 24 would want to table this and ask Robin to
91 1 touch base and send a letter for this case? 2 Is that appropriate for you, Robin? 3 MS. WORKING: Yes. 4 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Would you care 5 to make that motion? 6 MEMBER BAUER: Right, I did. 7 MEMBER WROBEL: Second. 8 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay, all right. 9 We have a motion to table this case with 10 those directions from Member Bauer and a 11 second from Member Wrobel. If Ms. Working 12 could please call the roll. 13 MS. WORKING: That's 035? 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 15 MS. KUDLA: Yes. 16 MS. WORKING: Motion is by Member 17 Bauer? 18 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Correct. And the 19 second by Member Wrobel. 20 MS. WORKING: Thank you. 21 Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 24 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
92 1 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 2 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 4 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 8 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Motion to table passes 10 6-0. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That wraps up 12 the cases that the Zoning Board has before 13 it and we will move to other matters. 14 15 First item under other matters is 16 ZBA08-015 for 1195 West Lake Road. And 17 let's also go ahead and combine item number 18 two which is also a request of an extension. 19 Do you wish to make any comments on those 20 cases or shall we? 21 MS. WORKING: I believe that the 22 Petitioner submitted letters to you 23 indicating what their request was and why, 24 which they are required to do. So we have
93 1 two requests for 90 days. 2 MS. KUDLA: Are they two different 3 case numbers? 4 MS. WORKING: Yes. 5 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes. 6 MS. KUDLA: Do them separately. 7 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there any 8 discussion on the request for a 90-day 9 extension? 10 MEMBER BAUER: I would make a motion 11 in case: 08-015, request a 90-day extension 12 be approved. 13 MEMBER IBE: Second. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is a 15 motion by Member Bauer and a second by 16 Member Ibe. 17 Ms. Working, please call the roll. 18 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 20 MS. WORKING: Chairman Fischer? 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 22 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 23 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 24 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe?
94 1 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 2 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 4 MS. WORKING: And Member Wrobel? 5 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 6 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve 7 extension request for ZBA08-015 passes 6-0. 8 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do you have the 10 case number for the other one? I didn't 11 write it down. 12 MS. WORKING: It's 07-047 for 1339 13 East Lake Road. 14 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is there any 15 other discussion on the request for this 16 case? If not, will someone make a motion? 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: So move in case 18 number: 07-047 that 1339 East Lake is 19 granted a 90-day extension. 20 MEMBER IBE: Second. 21 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There a motion 22 by Member Krieger and a second by Member 23 Ibe. 24 Please call the roll.
95 1 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 3 MS. WORKING: Member Ibe? 4 MEMBER IBE: Yes. 5 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel? 6 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes. 7 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer? 8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 9 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer -- or 10 Chairman Fischer? I apologize. 11 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye. 12 MS. WORKING: Member Ghannam? 13 MEMBER GHANNAM: Yes. 14 MS. WORKING: Motion to grant 15 extension in ZBA07-047 for 90 days at 1339 16 East Lake passes 6-0. 17 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have been 18 called worse, Ms. Working, probably by 19 people at this table. 20 MS. WORKING: Got to give all due 21 respect. 22 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: We will move to 24 item number three which is an update on a
96 1 request we sent to review the 90-day time 2 limit to pull the permit after variance is 3 granted. Did one of you guys want to 4 summarize? 5 MS. KUDLA: I can summarize. 6 Yesterday City Council, I am assuming did 7 pass on the second meeting the amendment to 8 make it 180 days to get a building permit. 9 It will be 15 more days before they actually 10 that becomes effective. Actually 15 days 11 from yesterday before that becomes 12 effective. 13 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, that's good 14 news on that front. Hopefully we'll see 15 less of these requests. 16 17 And then the last item on the 18 agenda is Rules of Procedure update. 19 MS. KUDLA: Yes. I did research and 20 put together a draft opinion regarding the 21 alternate member and what the alternate 22 member can do when they are not sitting as a 23 voting member. Tom Schultz said I can now 24 submit it to you. I will put it in format
97 1 to submit to the Board for the next meeting. 2 You can consider what you want to do 3 once you read the opinion letter and then 4 make a decision which way you want to go and 5 then you can revise the rule accordingly. 6 And then once that is taken care of we 7 should go over the rules. I will get you a 8 red line draft and approve it. 9 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: All right, that 10 sounds good. 11 MS. KUDLA: You probably would want 12 some time to consider it. So I don't think 13 you what would want to consider it earlier 14 than that. 15 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Depending on we 16 get it we can have Robin put it on the 17 agenda. You are usually good at keeping us 18 on track. 19 Seeing no other business before us I 20 will entertain a motion to adjourn. 21 MEMBER WROBEL: Motion to adjourn. 22 MEMBER BAUER: Motion to adjourn. 23 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: There is two 24 motions which is good enough for a second
98 1 for me. All in favor aye? 2 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 3 CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The Board is 4 adjourned. 5 (The meeting was adjourned at 6 8:34 p.m.) 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
99 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify 5 that I have recorded stenographically the 6 proceedings had and testimony taken in the 7 above-entitled matter at the time and place 8 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further 9 certify that the foregoing transcript, 10 consisting of (82) typewritten pages, is a 11 true and correct transcript of my said 12 stenographic notes. 13 14 15 16 17 18 _____________________________ 19 Mona L. Talton, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 22 July 17, 2008 23 24
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