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REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, August 7, 2007.
1 Novi, Michigan
2 Tuesday, August 7, 2007
3 7:30 p.m.
4 - - - - - -
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Good evening,
7 everyone. This is the Tuesday, August 7th,
8 2007 meeting. Please bear with us, we are
9 forgetting to turn on our microphone.
10 That's the very first thing.
11 We have four members present out of a
12 seven member Board, plus one alternate. In
13 this instance we do have a quorum so we can
14 conduct a meeting.
15 However, at times, the Applicants prefer to
16 have a full board present.
17 What we will do is give you the
18 opportunity prior to each case of deciding
19 whether or not you want your case tabled to
20 the next meeting, or whether you want it
21 heard here this evening.
22 It has been advertised as a public
23 hearing, so we do have everybody having the
24 opportunity to present and discuss things
1 this evening, but we don't want to put the
2 Applicants at a disadvantage by not having a
3 full Board present for that.
4 Basically what it means with four
5 members present is that everybody would have
6 to vote in favor of something for it to be
7 passed. One negative vote, it would be
9 I want to make sure that's correct, if
10 I could please check with our attorney.
11 MS. KUDLA: That's correct.
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is correct.
13 So, that's the way we are tonight. So,
14 probably right upfront, maybe those of you,
15 especially those who may be late in the
16 agenda the opportunity. Is there anyone
17 here that right now opts to request being
18 tabled until the next month's meeting?
19 MR. DEBRINCAT: I am first on the
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Let's hold off
22 just a minute, because what I want to do is
23 officially open the meeting and then we will
24 ask for that again.
1 Let me -- we have to do several items.
2 And we will get to you. I just wanted to
3 see if there wasn't anybody, then we were
4 going to go ahead and move forward. Since
5 we have several people, there are a few
6 things we would like to do.
7 So, officially I will be calling the
8 meeting to order.
9 And at this time I will call the roll
10 for attendance, please.
11 MS. WORKING: Member Bauer?
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Absent excused.
13 MS. WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Absent excused.
15 MS. WORKING: Member Shroyer?
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Present.
17 MS. WORKING: Member Fischer?
18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Present.
19 MS. WORKING: Member Canup?
20 Member Krieger?
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here.
22 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
23 MEMBER WROBEL: Present.
24 MS. WORKING: We do have a quorum.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. As
2 stated, we do have a quorum, and this is an
3 official meeting and it is now in session.
4 At this time I would like our newest
5 member, Member Wrobel, I know I asked him
6 last month, but I am going to ask him again,
7 to lead us in the pledge of allegiance.
8 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge allegiance to
9 the flag, of the United States of America
10 and to the Republic for which it stands, one
11 nation under God indivisible with liberty
12 and justice for all.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this time,
14 then we would like to read the rules of
15 conduct for the meeting. Mr. Vice-Chair, if
16 would you do that for us, please.
17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you,
18 Mr. Chairman. The rules that are intact for
19 this meeting are as follows:
20 Make sure to turnoff all pagers and
21 cell phones during the meeting. The
22 Applicant and all representatives will be
23 asked to come forth, state their name and
24 address and be sworn in by our Secretary.
1 In the absence of the Secretary the Vice
2 Chair will swear in each Representative.
3 The Applicants and Representatives
4 will be allowed five minutes to address the
5 Board and present their case, and an
6 extension will be granted at the discretion
7 of the Chairperson.
8 Anyone in the audience who wishes to
9 address the Board regarding their case at
10 hand will be asked by the Chairperson to
11 raise their hand and be recognized. Once
12 recognized, the audience members addressing
13 the Board will be sworn in and given
14 three minutes to speak as an individual, or
15 10 minutes to speak if representing a group.
16 Members of the audience will be
17 allowed to address the Board once unless
18 directly questioned by a Board Member or the
20 The Secretary will read the number of
21 public hearing notices mailed pertaining to
22 the case. Objection and approval responses
23 will be made into the record at that time.
24 The Chairperson will ask for input
1 from the Community Development Department,
2 the Ordinance Enforcement Officer, the
3 Planning Department and the City attorney.
4 The Chairperson will turn the case over to
5 the Board for discussion, clarification and
6 entertainment of a Motion when appropriate.
7 Impromptu statements from the audience
8 during discussion by the Board will not be
9 tolerated and will be considered out of
10 order. A roll call vote will be taken to
11 approve or deny the Motion on the table and
12 the next case will be called.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this time I
14 would like to review the agenda for the
15 approval. Is there any additions,
16 corrections, et cetera, to the agenda,
17 bearing in mind that we may be adjusting
18 things based on what was discussed earlier?
19 MEMBER WROBEL: Motion to approve the
20 agenda as stated.
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
23 and a second. All in favor say aye.
24 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Opposed?
2 Am I correct that we have no Minutes
3 to approve?
4 MS. WORKING: That is correct.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is correct.
6 MS. WORKING: But you will next month.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We will next
8 month. So, we have adjusted the agenda to
9 remove the Minutes.
10 At this time here again -- well,
11 actually this is probably the perfect time.
12 Under Public Remarks. Is there anyone
13 who wants to discuss anything regarding the
14 ZBA that is not currently on the agenda? I
15 will ask that first.
16 Seeing none, at this time then, I
17 would like to entertain the discussion as
18 mentioned earlier concerning the Applicants
19 that may want to table their activities
20 until next month.
21 And this gentleman, I believe, would
22 like to be first. Please come forward,
23 state your name and the case that you are
1 MR. DEBRINCAT: My name is Larry
2 Debrincat. I live at 8917 Tavistock (ph) in
4 I am here representing my brother,
5 Joseph Debrincat, and we're going to request
6 that we be tabled.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is case
8 number: 07-047. The first item on the
9 agenda. Do we need to have a roll call vote
10 to do that?
11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Could we
12 get all of them to do it in all one motion
14 MS. KUDLA: If we have all present,
15 all parties present that wants to table, we
16 can do it in one Motion. As of now it's an
17 individual Motion.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Thank
19 you, Mr. Debrincat. We had a second
21 MR. GUIDOBONO: Mark Guidobono with
22 Cambridge Homes. Item number 2 on the
23 agenda request to be tabled. When would the
24 next meeting be?
1 MS. WORKING: The next meeting is
2 September 11th.
3 MR. GUIDOBONO: I will be out of town.
4 Is it possible after this case to be
5 postponed two months, is that possible?
6 MS. WORKING: Until October?
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Certainly.
8 MR. GUIDOBONO: That would be my
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. And
11 we had a third gentleman?
12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Is
13 September okay with the first gentleman?
14 MR. DEBRINCAT: Yes, that's fine.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I was assuming
16 the majority of the people wanted to move
17 forward as quickly as possible.
18 MR. SHORT: William Short with
19 Charisma Salon in the Novi Town Center
20 requesting that this be tabled.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: To the September
22 meeting, sir?
23 MR. SHORT: Yes.
24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there anyone
1 else currently in the audience? What we
2 will do is periodically poll the people
3 present so nobody has to sit through a long
4 meeting, and we will continue before that
7 At this point it appears that we have
8 Case number: 07-047, and Case number:
9 07-049, that are requesting table until our
10 September meeting.
11 And Case number: 07-048, to be tabled
12 to our October meeting. Do we have a motion
13 to grant those tablings?
14 VICE CHAIR FISCHER: Motion to
15 postpone or table as presented.
16 MEMBER WROBEL: Second.
17 VICE CHAIR FISCHER: Due to Board
18 Members absences.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
20 made by Member Fischer and a second by
21 Member Wrobel. And I believe we need a roll
22 call vote on this one.
23 MS. WORKING: Vice chair Fisher?
24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
1 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
3 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
4 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
5 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
7 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 4-0.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you very,
9 gentleman, we will see you in the near
10 future, and our apologies.
11 With the current case, to the City
12 Attorney, as we continue to move forward,
13 with this being a public hearing, are we
14 required to read the notifications and
15 letter of correspondence, the objections and
16 the approvals? Or do we retain those on
17 file for the next month?
18 MS. KUDLA: Not for the ones that are
19 tabled. We do them for the next month.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Since these have
21 been tabled, do I need to go through each
22 case individually in case there are members
23 in the audience who want to speak on that
1 MS. KUDLA: No, because then it will
2 be noticed again and they can speak on
3 behalf at the next one.
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you very
5 good. Well, tonight's agenda isn't going to
6 be quite as long as it was before. We have
7 moved up to case number four.
8 But I do want to say, the Zoning Board of
9 Appeals is a Hearing Board empowered by the
10 Novi City Charter to hear appeals seeking
11 variances from the application of Novi
12 Zoning Ordinances.
13 It takes a vote of at least four
14 members, tonight that's exactly what we
15 have to have, to approve a variance requests
16 and a vote of majority present to deny a
17 request. In this case it would actually, it
18 would have to be even one denial would be a
19 negative. Because we have to have all four
20 in favor.
21 The Board consist of seven regular
22 Members and one alternate Member. The
23 alternate Member has the right to
24 participate in all Board discussions and
1 hearings, but may not vote except in the
2 absence or extension of a regular Board
5 We will go on to the first case which
6 at this point is Case Number: 07-050 filed
7 by Patti Loose of Sign Fabricators for
8 Andiamo Second City located at 42705 Grand
9 River Avenue.
10 Patti Loose of Sign Fabricators is
11 requesting a 21.2 square foot sign variance
12 and a 2-foot height sign variance for the
13 placement of an 8-foot by 6-foot 4-inch
14 ground sign for Andiamo Second City to be
15 located at said address.
16 The requested sign will replace a
17 previously approved ground sign in ZBA
18 97-111. The property is zoned TC-1 and
19 located east of Novi Road and south of Grand
20 River Avenue.
21 The Ordinance Section 28-5(2)a.1
22 states that the area height and placement
23 regulations states of a Ground sign. A
24 ground sign shall not exceed a maximum of 30
1 square feet. As mentioned, the Applicant is
2 requesting a 51.2 square foot ground sign.
3 And also, City Ordinance, Section
4 28-5(2)a.2.ii states: Area height and
5 placement regulations states that: All
6 other ground signs shall not exceed a height
7 of six feet.
8 This Applicant is requesting an 8-foot
9 tall sign.
10 I see the Applicant has stepped
11 forward. Would you please state your name
12 and address and be sworn in by our
13 Vice-chair in the absence of our Secretary
14 in the event that you are not an attorney.
15 MR. BROOK: Robert Brook, 21544
16 Audette, Dearborn, Michigan. I am
17 representing the Sign Fabricators in this
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can you
20 please raise your hand?
21 MR. BROOK: Oh, sure.
22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Do you
23 swear to tell the truth regarding Case
24 number: 07-050?
1 MR. BROOK: Yes.
2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you.
3 MR. BROOK: First off, I want to make
4 sure everybody got a copy of the landlord
5 approval. It came in late today and I got
6 it on an e-mail just before I showed up.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes. Mr.
9 MR. BROOK: Right.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The owner of
11 Main Street East building?
12 MR. BROOK: That's it.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, very good.
14 MR. BROOK: As was stated, this was
15 ZBA'd in the past for the sign that's
16 existing. They just want to basically
17 replace the same size, height, the whole bit
18 with the names of the tenants that are
19 there. Andiamo's Second City and Dirty
20 Martini Lounge.
21 From what I could ascertain it's, the
22 sign itself is in no way intrusive where it
23 is. It's just for I.D.ing these businesses.
24 Currently it's Main Street East identifying
1 their complex, and they want to get the
2 individual customers on here and stay at the
3 same size. That's basically what we are
4 looking at.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. This
6 is a public hearing. Is there any members
7 of the audience that care to comment on this
9 Seeing none, I will close the Public
10 Hearing, and indicate that 22 notices were
11 mailed. We received 0 approvals and one
13 That objection is from a Jeff Kruse,
14 K-R-U-S-E, from Belle Tire, 42409 Grand
15 River and he stated: The Main Street
16 entrance sign already effectively blocks our
17 building. Additional signage is not to be
18 to the benefit of our already
19 visibility-challenged business.
20 The challenge is reading the
21 handwriting. So, that was an objection.
22 At this time is there any comments
23 from the City or Counsel?
24 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer, I just
1 wanted to point out that the approval letter
2 was e-mailed in at 2:42 this afternoon. So
3 I want to make sure you're referencing the
4 correct letter. There was a prior letter
5 that was a little short of detail, so I
6 requested a more detailed approval letter.
7 It's prefaced by the e-mail that Patti Loose
8 from Sign Fabricators attached to send to
9 me. It was in your packet.
10 That should be the approval letter
11 that the Board uses for their standard here.
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Any
13 other comments?
14 MR. FOX: We have no other comment.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At
16 this time I will turn it over to the ZBA
17 Members for discussion. I will look to my
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I move that
20 we don't allow the Chair to make any more
21 jokes tonight, I'll tell you that much.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: To the left, to
23 the left.
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: That's a song.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Well, while
2 we're waiting I'll comment. I really like
3 the current sign. Did the organization look
4 at all about just replacing the verbiage
5 that's on the current sign with maybe the
6 headliner at the top and the other two
7 businesses in the lower section? Step up to
8 the mic, please.
9 MR. BROOK: They looked it over and
10 then they more or less approved this sign
11 that's on the drawing here. They like that
12 as opposed to what's there now.
13 It states it's the Main Street east.
14 This is descriptive of the three businesses
15 that are in that area.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: By the way,
17 while you're up there, if you have a copy of
18 the sign, could you put it on the over head
19 so our audience can see it. And I will
20 mention for those who may be viewing from
21 the home audience, I understand that we have
22 a piece of equipment that is not
23 functioning, so consequently what we get to
24 see here, unfortunately you will not be able
1 to view at home. So, bear with us,
2 hopefully we will have everything back in
3 order for the next meeting.
4 Thank you.
5 MR. BROOK: I believe it is going to
6 be a little more distinctive than the
7 classic monument sign that is there now.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The current sign
9 is 51.2 square feet. It's basically the
10 same size as the one that's in existence.
11 With this not being made of brick or
12 surrounded by brick, what fabrication does
13 this consist of?
14 MR. BROOK: Aluminum structure to be
15 secure to the ground, ground base.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's all the
17 comments I had.
18 Member Krieger?
19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. I agree
20 that the current sign at the Main Street
21 East gives you the downtown spirit, the area
22 that they are trying to create, although the
23 other one is nice. But that one seems more
24 agreeable. Thank you.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Wrobel?
2 MEMBER WROBEL: To the Applicant.
3 Using the existing sign is that creating a
4 hardship for you other than an aesthetic
6 MR. BROOK: Well, with the way you
7 look at this existing sign, there is just a
8 very limited space there for any kind of
9 I.D.ing of these businesses. That little
10 squared-off section in the middle of the
11 concrete. Any business is going to try for
12 a little more visibility, a little more
13 noticeability of their property or their
15 This is more or less like a reader
16 board that the Main Street East would have
17 put something up there maybe saying that
18 there's going to be a 5-K run or who knows
20 MEMBER WROBEL: If I do recall, there
21 is signage on the building currently,
22 correct? Andiamo and also Second City
24 MR. BROOK: Dirty Martini.
1 MEMBER WROBEL: So, there is a
2 differentiation there that exist currently
3 excluding this sign?
4 MR. BROOK: I don't believe so.
5 MS. KUDLA: Can I raise an issue
6 regarding the definition of a ground sign?
7 Looking at the definition of a ground sign
8 it indicates that a ground sign is a sign
9 not attached to any buildings, supported by
10 a monument, placed in the ground surface
11 such as the entire bottom of the sign is
12 affixed to the ground and is not supported
13 by poles, columns or uprights.
14 It hasn't been indicated on the record
15 how this new sign is supposed to be
16 supported. That would, I guess, raise a
17 question of whether or not there would be an
18 additional variance if it's not going to be
19 supported by any of those three means
21 MR. BROOK: I believe they use like
22 the grounding bolts into the ground into a
23 concrete base and bolt it to that. From
24 what I have dealt with in the past anyhow.
1 MR. FOX: Just for a little
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir.
4 MR. FOX: When he comes in for a
5 permit we would require that it has a
6 foundation underneath the entire sign. And
7 our definition what we are looking at is if
8 the entire sign actually touches the ground
9 along the bottom, it would be considered a
10 ground sign.
11 We look at it as if it's raised up and
12 the poles are exposed, so there is actual
13 visibility underneath it, then that would be
14 considered raised up on a post or pedestal
15 or a pole or something like that.
16 As long as the whole thing sits down
17 on the ground the support system is covered
18 up. So, its considered to be attached.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, it appears
20 it would be considered a ground sign in our
21 instance. So, we just need to make sure
22 once everything comes as approved that it
23 meets those requirements.
24 Member Wrobel, do you have any further
2 MEMBER WROBEL: I just would like to
3 reiterate what my colleague said. When this
4 development was set up, they wanted
5 uniformity, hence the existing sign there.
6 I see no hardship by not using that sign
7 since there is recognition on the building
8 itself for Andiamo. I don't think it's
9 necessary. It's not their primary sign.
10 So, I would have a hard time supporting
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
13 Comments from other Board Members?
14 Entertain a Motion? It makes it very
15 difficult without a full Board.
16 Member Krieger?
17 MEMBER KRIEGER: In Case number:
18 07-050 filed by Patti Loose of Sign
19 Fabricators for Andiamo Second City located
20 at 42705 Grand River Avenue, move to deny
21 request for a variance at this time as to
22 the lack of evidence for a practical
23 difficulty or a hardship.
24 MEMBER WROBEL: Second.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
2 by Member Krieger and a second by Member
3 Wrobel. Is there further discussion by the
4 Committee, by the Board?
5 Member Fischer?
6 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might I
7 just clarify that. It is the practical
8 difficulty standard that we apply to this
9 case, hence, strike hardship from the record
10 or from the Motion, if that's appropriate?
11 MS. KUDLA: It's appropriate. Is there
12 any way we can make the Motion a little bit
13 more detailed?
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I was going to
15 talk about maybe some findings. I think the
16 fact that there is already currently
17 existing signage on the building to identify
18 the businesses is one point.
19 The sign makes no effort to fit in
20 with the aesthetics which is not fair to the
21 neighbors, does not do substantial justice
22 to the neighbors of the Main Street area.
23 MS. KUDLA: Is that an Amendment to
24 the Motion?
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Yes,
2 everything I stated would be a recommended
3 Amendment to the Motion.
4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Accepted.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Accepted by
6 Member Krieger and the Seconder as well.
7 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The only other
9 comment I would like to make is, I will
10 state again that I really like the brick, it
11 ties in with everything. And perhaps the
12 Applicant if this does get approved, may
13 want to go back and look at the possibility
14 of reconfiguring the existing sign to make
15 it more marketable or whatever for his or
16 her property.
17 MR. BROOK: It's looking tough if I
18 appealed because we have a limited Board. I
19 sense like four nays on that, and if I had
20 seven I would probably still.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have at times
22 in the past, and I will go to the City
23 attorney again, allowed the Applicant to
24 prior to a vote request tabling. But
1 typically that is done before a Motion is
3 MR. BROOK: I just wanted to present
4 that to the client, that perhaps they want
5 to appeal because of this. I don't know, I
6 tell them what I gleaned from all this.
7 MS. KUDLA: I think you can allow on a
8 Motion to Amend to table, if that's what the
9 Motion was, before the Motion is passed if
10 that's what the Board seeks to do.
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We could do that
12 if we care to. Again, I mentioned to the
13 Applicant, though, I think it's pretty
14 obvious that you have four negative votes
15 here. If you had a four to seven, the sign
16 still would have difficulty.
17 MR. BROOK: I will give them your
18 suggestion of reconfiguring or trying to do
19 something with the existing.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And I am only
21 speaking as one vote in stating that.
22 Because the big thing that we need to look
23 at is practical hardship. We have to follow
24 the Ordinances.
1 MR. BROOK: Right.
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's where to
3 start and where to work with.
4 MR. BROOK: Okay.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this point
6 let's go ahead and call the roll. As soon
7 as we're ready.
8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I have no
9 issue with the denying at this time just
10 because at the next meeting if they do wish
11 to relook at this, we could reconsider the
12 vote at the time. And that's what we have
13 done under Tom Schultz's advice at times
14 prior to this. So, we did give the
15 Applicant at the beginning the opportunity
16 to table due to the Board.
17 Let's move forward with our decisions
18 here. If there are denials that wish to ask
19 to be reconsidered, they can work through
20 Robin and the Chair through the next month
21 to get back on the Board. That would be my
22 suggestion to keep this moving forward.
23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What he is
24 saying is, at the next meeting we have the
1 opportunity to entertain a Motion for
2 reconsideration. But at that time,
3 obviously, we would want to look at a
4 different set of plans, et cetera.
5 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer, would
6 that require a new application to the ZBA?
7 Or would it be under other matters as a
8 special consideration given the
9 circumstances of the meeting this evening,
10 and the Applicant before you is the
11 Petitioner on behalf of his client in this
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: In my opinion,
14 and I will double check with legal counsel
15 on this as well, it should be at no
16 additional cost to the City because we had a
17 quorum and the vote perhaps would be to deny
18 at this point. So, as long as there is no
19 additional cost to the City, I see no
20 problem with going forward.
21 If you're looking at an additional
22 cost to the City, they should have to
24 MS. WORKING: It could come back as
1 reconsideration, we have looked at it as far
2 as noticing requirements as a
3 reconsideration, and voting requirements as
4 a reconsideration, so I think it could be
5 done that way.
6 MS. KUDLA: At no additional cost to
7 the Applicant.
8 MS. WORKING: At no additional cost to
9 the Applicant.
10 MS. WORKING: So, would you like for
11 me to call the roll, Chairman Shroyer?
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please.
13 MS. WORKING: Again, this was a Motion
14 to deny.
15 Member Krieger?
16 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
17 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
18 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
19 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
21 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
22 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
23 MS. WORKING: Motion to deny passes
1 MR. BROOK: Thank you.
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You understand
3 you need to get back with the City?
4 MR. BROOK: Yes.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Moving on to our
8 next case, which is Case Number 07-051 filed
9 by Christine Laikind of Stone City located
10 at 26940 Taft. They are requesting one
11 30.32 square foot sign variance for the
12 placement of a 7-foot 7 inch x 4-foot off
13 premise ground sign to be located at 45500
14 Grand River Avenue. The property is zoned
15 I-1 and located Grand River Avenue and east
16 of Taft Road.
17 Our Ordinance Section 28-8 (1), it
18 says Off-Premises advertised signs permitted
19 according to district states: Ground pole
20 signs and wall signs only shall be permitted
21 in an I-2 district.
22 The Applicant is requesting a ground
23 sign variance to be placed off premises.
24 At this time I see the Applicant has
1 come forward. If you are not an attorney,
2 please raise your hand and state your name
3 and address and be sworn in by our
5 MS. LAIKIND: My name is Christine
6 Laikind, I am here on behalf of Stone City.
7 MR. CEBLARE (ph): I am Roger Ce blare
8 of Stone City.
9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Will you
10 both your hands. Do you swear to tell the
11 truth regarding Case number: 07-051?
12 MR. CEBLARE: Yes.
13 MS. LAIKIND: Yes.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state
15 your case.
16 MS. LAIKIND: We're here to petition
17 for a sign on the corner because we believe
18 that it's time that we have a presence at
19 that corner. We have been at that location
20 for 10 years and right now the customers
21 have a hard time finding us off the main
22 road. The only way they can see us is
23 driving down I-96, and once you get off the
24 highway it's difficult to locate us.
1 We receive a lot of phone calls from
2 customers today trying to locate us. So, we
3 would like to have the opportunity to place
4 a sign at that corner for our business.
5 MR. CEBLARE: We have had a sign in
6 the past granted and my last staff didn't
7 complete the whole base around it and they
8 had a question about it, so we took it down.
9 So, it was permitted before. My management
10 that I had there before didn't complete the
11 landscaping that we were going to do around
12 it. They had a concern, we took it down.
13 We really didn't come back to it for quite a
14 few years. And just recently, even the
15 Mayor came in and said, I couldn't find you.
16 Why don't you get a sign and try to apply.
17 So, we're just kind of like -- we went
18 through a lot of the hardships of the road
19 construction. We've had a lot of problems
20 with the water running down, we corrected
21 that. We are at a pivotal point that we
22 want to rebuild that area and invest and say
23 we like to have a nice stone yard enclosed,
24 but to get a real run for it and see if we
1 can get the business in there.
2 A lot of people once they find us they
3 love us and they want that, and we want to
4 built a state of the art, almost like an
5 English garden type stone facility that
6 would be able to take care of a lot of the
7 new homes in the area.
8 We have a nice facility in Utica that
9 we invested a tremendous amount of money
10 and it's really nice.
11 We believe in that outdoor patio, and
12 we would like to have the opportunity to
13 have a business there to keep growing.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you.
15 This is a public hearing as mentioned. So,
16 is there anyone in the audience who cares to
17 comment on this case?
18 Seeing none, I will close the public
20 And I normally would ask the Secretary
21 to read notices, but I am the Secretary
22 today. So, 19 notices were mailed. We have
23 zero approvals and zero objections.
24 MS. WORKING: Chairperson Shroyer, at
1 the waking hour this afternoon after I was
2 gone, we received one additional approval
3 that I did make copies and will distribute
4 to the Board.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is from Hue
6 L. McVelker (ph) at 27070 Taft Road, Novi.
7 He circled approval and signed it. So we
8 have an approval.
9 Is there any comments from the City or
10 Counsel at this time?
11 MS. KUDLA: No.
12 MR. FOX: If it please the Board, just
13 a little clarification. The variance they
14 are seeking is for the sign being off
15 premises. The area of the sign does meet
16 the sign requirements within the square
17 footage requirement.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I
19 understand perhaps that you have a written
20 document for us indicating approval for --
21 MS. LAIKIND: Yes, I do. I am holding
22 it in my hand. It's after the legal
23 agreement made between the property owner
24 and us, that he granted us permission based
1 on the agreement. I have copies.
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Would you like
3 to pass them out, because we would like to
4 accept them, if you would? Thank you.
5 While the Board is taking a few
6 minutes to glance these over, if you have a
7 picture of your new sign could you put it on
8 the overhead for us so that everyone can see
9 the request except the home audience.
10 MR. CEBLARE: We are going to make
11 that out of a retaining wall material so it
12 looks like a nice monument sign, that's our
13 forte is in the stone work. So, we
14 definitely want to show some nice artistic
15 ability in it.
16 We want it to speak nicely of the
17 Stone products and look like it belongs.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And the size is
19 the same size that you have posted
21 MR. CEBLARE: Correct.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this time I
23 will turn it over to the Board Members for
1 Member Wrobel?
2 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 First off, the distance from the location of
4 the proposed sign to your property, how far
5 is that?
6 MR. CEBLARE: I would say 400 feet,
7 500 feet. We're at the end of Taft, so our
8 property starts at that house down there, so
9 to the building it might be a little
10 further. But to our property line.
11 MEMBER WROBEL: I am noticing from the
12 agreement document that you just passed out
13 that they will allow you to have the sign
14 there for at least one year?
15 MR. CEBLARE: Correct.
16 MEMBER WROBEL: Then after that it's
17 at their discretion?
18 MR. CEBLARE: Correct.
19 MEMBER WROBEL: The sign does meet all
20 the City requirements for signage?
21 MR. FOX: Yes, the area of the sign
22 does meet the City requirement.
23 MEMBER WROBEL: I have seen your
24 place, but as you said, only from I-96. I
1 know where you are, but if I had to find it
2 from Grand River, I couldn't.
3 So, I see this does -- is necessary
4 for a business of this sort. Being set back
5 off the main road and not having any signage
6 that you can see from the road, I think it
7 would be a benefit to your customers, to the
8 City to allow a sign like this to go on.
9 The fact that you are going to put it
10 on another person's property who is
11 cooperative with this, that's a plus in my
12 book too.
13 Thank you, that's all.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Krieger?
15 MEMBER KRIEGER: I agree. Thank you.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer?
17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now, you
18 say that the size is applicable, would that
19 be for that district that you are referring
20 to? The size that they are asking for would
21 be allowed in that district if it was on
22 premise, is that a correct statement?
23 MR. FOX: Correct. The ground sign is
24 allowed to be 30-square feet. It is
1 30-square feet. We don't consider the brick
2 work as part of the sign.
3 That does make it larger than the
4 size, but the sign itself is just where the
5 lettering is. So that part of the sign is
6 within the Ordinance.
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And the
8 setbacks have been reviewed as well and are
10 MR. FOX: As far as I know, I don't
11 know that for a fact. Just the sign itself
12 as far as I know is correct. I don't know
13 if it's in the setback requirements or not.
14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would
16 I see a need as well given your location, it
17 is a very particular location. The only
18 time I've ever known, I think we have had a
19 different case. Have you guys been here for
20 something else, like off, outside storage or
21 something to that affect?
22 MR. CEBLARE: Yeah, a few years ago.
23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I remember
24 it being difficult back then to find.
1 MR. CEBLARE: People have already said
2 that are glad to see the temporary sign.
3 They said we found you.
4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER:
5 (Unintelligible) as shown by the Petitioner.
6 Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have a couple
8 comments. The first one is, it is a very
9 attractive sign, the proposed sign. I did
10 not know you were there and I live less than
11 a half of mile from your store and I drove
12 someplace on 23 and bought all the Stone
13 that I needed, and it makes me sick with the
14 gas prices what it is. However, I will say
15 driving down to your store I had to get my
16 car washed afterwards. That's something to
17 work on in the future.
18 MR. CEBLARE: Paver that street, that
19 would be nice.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I do have a
21 question to the City, and that is regarding
22 the stones painted at their entrance that
23 say Stone City. There is eight stones,
24 however many stores there are. There is an S
1 on one, a T on one, an O on one, an N on
2 one, et cetera. And I believe under our
3 definition that's considered signage.
4 And if that is considered signage,
5 now, are we in a double signage type
6 jeopardy situation whereas --
7 MS. KUDLA: Where we're asking for two
8 signs. Are those existing approved?
9 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
11 MS. WORKING: Our Ordinance officer
12 would be the right person to answer that
13 question, and he is on an approved vacation
14 today. It was not something that was raised
15 to our attention prior to the hearing
16 tonight. I don't feel comfortable answering
17 the question right now without researching
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What I would
20 suggest is the maker of the Motion, if we do
21 go forward with this in approval, that it be
22 contingent upon a review by the sign
23 ordinance officer as to whether or not we
24 can do this, in fact. Or perhaps --
1 MR. CEBLARE: We would be willing to
2 take those out. Some graffiti person came
3 and put that in there, I don't know who did
4 that. We can get rid of those because that
5 was our only way of -- people even down
6 there, they got to the end of the street and
7 they still turned around and went the other
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And I wondered
10 too. I just driving and I went, oh, there
11 you are.
12 MR. CEBLARE: It's just a strange site
13 to do that without pulling the building up
14 and everything else. We would be willing,
15 because that would tell us everything right
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sure. I fully
19 MS. KUDLA: That could be added as an
20 acceptable condition to any Motion too, if
21 you want.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That would be
23 agreeable to me.
24 So, at this time I will entertain a
2 Mr. Fox, did you have anything?
3 Do you have a Motion from any of our
4 Board Members?
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: I will try again. In
6 Case number: 07-051 filed by Christine
7 Laikind of Stone City located at 26940 Taft
8 Road, I move to approve their request for
9 the variance of the ground sign to be placed
10 off premises. That they have a practical
11 difficulty in location. That they have a
12 letter stating the approval of Richard
13 Nummaria (ph) of having the sign on his
14 property, and also the agreement statement
15 that was presented to us.
16 And that, also, that our sign
17 ordinance officer will be investigating the
18 stones with the lettering, and upon his
19 information to approve this.
20 MS. KUDLA: I believe the Motion, I
21 thought the Motion would be that that
22 consideration would be done as a condition
23 rather than having the ordinance officer --
24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Might I
1 suggest to Member Krieger that we make part
2 of the Motion that this approval is
3 contingent upon the removal of the lettering
4 on the stones. I believe that's where most
5 of the Board was going.
6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Additional
8 signage if it's deemed by the ordinance
9 officer that that is, indeed, a sign. Are
10 you okay with that?
11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
12 MS. KUDLA: Did we even clarify
13 whether the ordinance officer is going to be
14 looking at it or whether it is going to just
15 be removed period without the ordinance
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: How does the
18 Motioner want to do it?
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: The
20 Petitioner didn't seem to have an objection
21 to removing it.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, I don't
23 think he had a problem with that.
24 MR. CEBLARE: Yeah, we'll take that
1 off. You can put it on there, we will turn
2 the rocks over.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's contingent
4 upon the removal of the --
5 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Just turn
6 them around.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: -- existing
8 signage --
9 MR. CEBLARE: I get them down to
10 there, they will find the rest of the way.
11 MS. KRIEGER: Yes.
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You can drive
13 out on 96 --
14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
15 MEMBER WROBEL: Second.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Now we have a
17 second. It's been moved by Member Krieger
18 and seconded by Member Wrobel.
19 Any further discussion?
20 Please call the roll.
21 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
22 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
23 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
24 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
1 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
3 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
5 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's been
8 approved. Please get with the City to
9 clarify everything.
10 MR. CEBLARE: Thank you.
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
13 Next case is Case number: 07-052
14 filed by Nels Carlson of 1365 South Lake
15 Drive. He is requesting a variance to the
16 storage requirement for recreational
17 equipment less than six feet in height above
18 the ground in any required side yard or rear
19 yard. Applicant is proposing to store
20 recreational equipment in the front yard
21 adjacent to the road.
22 Property is zoned R-4 and located on
23 the south side of South Lake Drive and east
24 of West Park Drive.
1 The Ordinance for the City Section
2 25042 states: Commercial and Recreational
3 Vehicle Parking and Storage, that the
4 off-street parking or storage of any mobile
5 home or recreational equipment in any
6 residential district shall be subject to the
7 following conditions:
8 Any recreational equipment less than
9 six feet in height above the ground may be
10 stored in any required side or rear yard.
11 And as stated, the Applicant is requesting
12 to store his recreational equipment in the
13 front yard.
14 Before we continue to move forward, I
15 will ask the Applicant, because I am not
16 sure if you were present when we started, do
17 you care to have this case tabled because we
18 do not have a full Board?
19 MR. CARLSON: No, I will take your
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state
22 your name and address, and if you are not an
23 attorney, be sworn in by our Vice-Chair.
24 MR. CARLSON: Nels Carlson, 1365 South
1 Lake. I am an attorney, but I will still
2 tell the truth.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: You are obliged
4 to, I believe. Please state your case.
5 MR. CARLSON: I don't know how many of
6 you folks were present, (unintelligible).
7 This is a very regulated area on South Lake
8 it's both wetlands and woodlands here. The
9 only way we could get our house in was to
10 push it all the way to the back of the
11 property, and that was done.
12 And it as part of that process I came
13 in and requested and I think it's attached
14 to the packet, a variance so we can store
15 our boats back now behind where the garage
16 is to the side. The house actually faces
17 west rather than south. There is no front
18 yard. There is an open. There is a natural
19 open space up in the front where a house
20 would be if the wetlands didn't tail in
21 sufficiently so you couldn't put a house
23 There is no side yard. There really
24 isn't any rear end yard. We are wedged in
1 sideways at the back. If what I am
2 proposing that I be allowed to do is put my
3 boats exactly where they would be if my
4 house could have been where everybody's
5 house on South Lake Drive is, namely in the
6 front of the yard. It's right next to where
7 my neighbor Pete and Grace Light (ph) store
8 their boats.
9 I have talked to them, they have
10 no problem with this. I am only here
11 because the ordinance officer initially told
12 me you have to store those things across the
13 street on the lake front where I put them,
14 and then came back two years later and said,
15 no, no, no, no, no, you got to move them out
16 of there on the 31st of May. They can't be
17 there any more, but you can bring them back
18 in in September or something like that.
19 So I moved them and I moved them over
20 to exactly where they are going to be. I
21 don't know if anybody has traveled by the
22 property or not. They are right where they
23 would be if my house was going to be in the
24 front. They are right next to where my
1 neighbor has his.
2 I know that there are a couple people
3 from Lilly Pond behind us who have filed
4 some kind of objection. But, I am not
5 asking for anything like, I don't want
6 everybody to store boats on the front. I am
7 not trying to set a precedent. This is a
8 unique piece of property.
9 The hardship I have is there is no
10 place to store these boats, zero. I don't
11 know what I will do with the boats if you
12 don't want me to put it there, and I will
13 put it anyplace you want. I just as soon as
14 have them over on the lake front. But
15 that's where they were at, but then I was
16 required to move them by the ordinance
18 I think this is about the only place
19 that they can effectively be. I think there
20 is probably -- probably some of the
21 objections which were filed is because of
22 the way this came out. I didn't say in my
23 request that I wanted to store them in my
24 front yard. My front yard is actually my
1 side yard and faces my neighbor's side yard.
2 And my front door faces the other
3 direction. I don't have a front yard. If
4 it is said that I wanted to store them where
5 everybody is storing them, if I could have
6 built my house where everybody else built
7 their house, which is what my Petition says,
8 I don't think anybody would have objected.
9 The hardship is that I have no place
10 to put them. We had to bring in 600 tons of
11 filter because as it turned out, the water
12 table was 12 inches below, so I couldn't put
13 them back where you guys gave me the
14 variance. I would love to have them back
15 there, but there is a 4-foot retaining wall.
16 I can't put them there. This is the only
17 place on the property I know where they can
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Is that
21 MR. CARLSON: Yeah, I'm done.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you.
23 This being a public hearing, is there anyone
24 in the audience who cares to make a comment
1 on this case?
2 Seeing none, I will close the public
4 MR. CARLSON: One final thing, I'm
5 sorry. You put in a 25 mile an hour speed
6 limit sign. My neighbor tells me it's
7 supposed to right at the property line.
8 It's three feet off the property line. If
9 you could move it to the property line, I
10 would be able to get my boats in.
11 I already cracked open my mail box
12 trying to come around the other way to avoid
13 this 25 mile an hour sign.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. We mailed
15 30 notices. We received 30 approvals and
16 three objections. The
17 objections were one from Jacqueline Kachiney
18 (ph) 29925 Lilly Trail. It states under
19 comments: Please, no.
20 The second letter of objection was
21 from an R. Faust at 29925 Lilly Trail.
22 Objection. The comment was: Then everyone
23 will want to park their boats in the front
24 yard. Ugh.
1 The third letter is from the Lilly
2 Pond Homeowners Association. And the
3 comments are: It is the concern of the
4 homeowners in the Lilly Pond Subdivision
5 with possible subjection. I really wish
6 ordinance was written for the aesthetic and
7 home value protection of all homes in the
8 area. Lilly Pond homeowners object to the
9 variance for this very reason.
10 Also, a great concern to our
11 homeowners is the message this sends to
12 residents in this woodland lake front area.
13 How does Council grant one variance without
14 having it continue the precedence?
15 MR. CARLSON: Do I have an opportunity
16 to respond to those or just make a comment?
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If any of us
18 open it back up to you, sir.
19 MR. CARLSON: Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: At this time I
21 will turn it over to the Board for comments
22 and questions and discussion.
23 To the City first, does the City or
24 Counsel have any comments?
1 MS. KUDLA: I just wanted to comment
2 that the sign issue cannot be part of the
3 zoning matter and to just contact the DPW on
5 MR. CARLSON: I just don't want to
6 have to cut it down and move it myself.
7 (Unintelligible) I want the speed limit to
8 be 25 and I want the sign up. I just don't
9 want to run my boat into it.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have no
11 jurisdiction over that --
12 MR. CARLSON: I wasn't sure whether
13 you did or not. I just thought that I would
14 conclude it so I could remember it before
15 the next time I try to move the boats.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have it
17 highlighted in your letter, actually.
18 Any other comments from the City?
19 MR. FOX: We have no other comments at
20 this time.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. Now,
22 we will turn it over to the Board.
23 Member Krieger?
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a question for
1 the City. Where are boats supposed to be
2 parked on East Lake or South Lake?
3 MR. FOX: I'm kind of looking for that
4 section of the Ordinance right now. There
5 is a provision, I'm just not sure what
6 section of the Ordinance. I can't find the
7 number off the top of my head.
8 But it allows from, I believe it's
9 October to May, storage of boats in those
10 areas which is what they were telling him
11 after a certain date he had to move them.
12 They were allowed to be there through the
13 winter, but not through the summer at the
14 location he has them now.
15 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger, the map
16 that was in your packet shows the
17 Petitioner's parcel, the road that is across
18 the street. The Petitioner owns that segment
19 of property, that is the limited seasonal
20 allowance for parking a boat. In the
21 Ordinance it stipulates that any
22 recreational equipment less than six feet in
23 height above the ground. And it continues
24 as follows on your agenda 2504.2 in required
1 side yard or rear yard. And you have heard
2 the Petitioner's statement as to why he
3 can't meet that requirement.
4 MEMBER KRIEGER: So, this area where
5 he has the boats now that I saw today he has
6 got it next to his neighbor and he has
7 stated the neighbor has no complaints
8 against it at this time.
9 MR. CARLSON: I talked with Pete and
10 he said he has no objection. He has at any
11 given time a large trailer that has
12 motorcycles and off-road vehicles and at
13 least one boat trailer, and sometimes two
14 boats and a number of other things parked
15 right there. It's next to his house. If I
16 put my garage on that side and I could have
17 put my house in front, I would be legal.
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay, that's all I
19 have right now.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: He would have
21 received the mailing also for this.
22 MR. CARLSON: Oh, I know he did. I
23 asked him.
24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer?
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So,
2 technically the neighbor that you speak of
3 that's on the side there, they are not
4 asking for a variance as well; is that
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, Mr. Fox?
7 MR. FOX: I did find that section I
8 was talking about. It's section 2910 of the
9 Zoning Ordinance. It says for the parcel of
10 land on the water, on the water front there,
11 that you are allowed to have winter storage
12 of boats and docks on October 1st to May
13 31st. So, that was where he was originally
14 storing them and he was asked to move them.
15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Got you.
16 Looking at the maps and listening to the
17 Petitioner's request, Mr. Chair, I really
18 don't see that there is any other way to do
19 this. Oftentimes with cases such as this I
20 would look around and I will say where else
21 can it be. What can he do to not need this
22 variance. And in this situation there is
23 none due to the 4-foot retaining wall, due
24 to the variance being granted no longer
1 being accessible.
2 I don't think we would want the
3 Petitioner to keep it across the street
4 either. I don't think that that would be
5 appeasing to his neighbors or good for
6 property values. So, I think that keeping
7 it in line with where his neighbors must
8 keep their recreational vehicles is the
9 optimum place for the city. Telling him no,
10 is not an option. Telling him not to keep
11 him own recreational vehicles on his
12 property is not an option to me. So, given
13 all those facts I would be in favor of this
14 Petitioner. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any further
17 Member Wrobel?
18 MEMBER WROBEL: I agree with Mr.
19 Fischer's comments. But, on the other hand
20 I look at it as, this was a self-imposed
21 hardship by building on this land. You knew
22 what the parameters were when you built on
23 it. So, you are asking us to relieve
24 something that you knew could be a potential
1 problem before you built it.
2 So, that's what I'm having trouble
3 going back and forth with. I understand
4 your problem, I sympathize with you, but I'm
5 not a hundred percent sold yet, that relief
6 should be provided because this is a
7 pre-existing condition that you knew about.
8 So, I am still on the fence right now.
9 MR. CARLSON: Well, the hardship would
10 be the retaining wall. Because I sought and
11 received the variance to put them where they
12 would normally be. I didn't know the water
13 table was going to be a foot below the land
14 and I was going to have to put in 4 feet of
15 fill everywhere on the property to build a
16 house and then put in a retaining wall to
17 hold it up.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Are you through,
19 Mr. Wrobel?
20 MEMBER WROBEL: That's all I have, Mr.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
23 Member Krieger, did you have a comment?
24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Not yet.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's a difficult
3 MR. CARLSON: I agree.
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: To me, that's
5 why we're here. This epitomizes the reason
6 to have the Zoning Board of Appeals to look
7 at individual cases. I agree with the
8 comments that came in, please don't put them
9 in the front yard, and please don't open up
10 a can of worms and all this type stuff. I
11 totally agree with that, but we need to look
12 at every case on an individual basis and how
13 does it apply to them. And we always have
14 difficulty up around lake properties due to
15 the wetlands and the woodlands and the
16 narrowness of the property, et cetera, et
18 If your neighbor did not park his
19 vehicles in a similar location, I probably
20 too would be opposed to this. But with the
21 neighbor parking his -- and they were there
22 or there was something there at least when I
23 went by the other day, and I agree with
24 Member Fischer, I don't see where else it
1 could be done.
2 You have tried. You have come forth,
3 you requested a variance and was granted a
4 variance, but unfortunately it didn't work.
5 It probably cost you big dollars to try to
6 do that.
7 MR. CARLSON: It did. My wife calls
8 it my retirement dirt.
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Your retirement
10 dirt. So, in this case, to me, as I
11 mentioned that's why we're here is to look
12 at the individual cases. And I am in favor
13 of allowing this variance.
14 Did you have a comment, Mr. Fox?
15 MR. FOX: If it pleases the Board, I
16 would make a suggestion that any Motions, if
17 you decide to vote in favor of this, that
18 any Motions include that it meet all the
19 Zoning Ordinance requirements for the
20 location. There are other individual
21 requirements that need to be met.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you very
23 much. Any further comments?
24 If not, I will entertain a Motion.
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Could you
2 further elaborate on that a little bit?
3 Like, so I know why we are putting it in the
5 MR. FOX: Well, there are other things
6 as far as the condition of tarps, covers,
7 registration, things of that nature that
8 need to be satisfied that he could still get
9 ticketed even if though he has permission to
10 park there.
11 I just wanted that all to be a part of
12 the Motion so that he is aware of all those
14 MR. CARLSON: I am definitely aware of
15 those items. It has current registration. It
16 has a tarp on it. It's -- I'm well aware of
18 MR. FOX: Thank you.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir?
20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would
21 move that in Case Number: 07-052 filed by
22 Nels Carlson for 1365 South Lake Drive that
23 the Board approve the request as requested
24 due to the fact that an undue hardship has
1 been established by the Petitioner.
2 MS. KUDLA: Practical difficulty. We
3 are just looking for a location or
4 dimensional variance where he is putting the
5 boat. We're not looking at this as a use
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Okay. At
8 first I thought it was.
9 Practical difficulty has been
10 established by the Petitioner and the fact
11 of trying to preserve the wetlands and
12 woodlands when building his residence.
13 Previously obtaining a variance for a less
14 visible area, but fortunately to other
15 circumstances that did not work out. And he
16 proved that this would not be a detriment to
17 the surrounding areas as the neighbors also
18 put their boats in a similar position on
19 that lot.
20 It also has to do with the difficulty
21 of where his house was placed on the lot and
22 the configuration of said lot. Let me also
23 make a condition that all other City
24 ordinances must be met in accordance with
1 these recreational vehicles equipment.
2 MS. KUDLA: That's fine.
3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
5 by Member Fischer and a second by Member
7 Any further discussion?
8 Ms. Working, please call the roll.
9 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
11 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
13 MS. WORKING Chairperson Shroyer?
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
15 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
16 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
17 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 4-0.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Your request has
19 been granted, sir.
20 MR. CARLSON: Thank you, Board
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
24 Our next case is Case Number:
1 07-053 filed by Igor Kacmarcik of Marygrove
2 Awnings for Whirly Ball located at 4150
3 Grand River Avenue.
4 That they are requesting one 40-square
5 foot canopy sign variance for the placement
6 of an 8-foot by 3-foot 7-inch front facing
7 canopy sign, and a 3-foot 4-inch by 3-foot
8 7-inch side facing canopy sign to be located
9 at 41540 Grand River for Whirly Ball.
10 The property is zoned NCC, and located
11 north of Grand River Avenue and west of
12 Meadowbrook Road.
13 The Novi Ordinance states under
14 Section 28-5(1)d, types of signs permitted
15 in each district states: In an NCC, on
16 premises advertising signs as follows: 1.
17 Business sign: Ground sign, or wall sign.
18 The Applicant is requesting a
19 canopy sign over the entrances of the
21 Under Section 28-5(2)c: Canopy sign
22 states Area: Maximum 24 square feet on
23 either side or both sides of the canopy.
24 The Applicant is requesting a total of
1 40 feet in canopy signage.
2 I see the Applicant has come forward.
3 Please state your name and address. And if
4 you're an attorney you don't have to be
5 sworn in. If you are not an attorney, we
6 need to swear you in.
7 MR. BUSSEY (ph): Well, I am an
8 attorney, Charles Bussey, representing
9 Whirly Ball and the Applicant, Igor
10 Kacmarcik of Marygrove Awning. My address
11 is 1235 North Main Street, Rochester,
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And you do care
14 to move forward with this case as opposed to
15 requesting it to be tabled?
16 MR. BUSSEY: Well, Mr. Chairman, I
17 appreciate you raising that point because
18 this request has some uniqueness, and I
19 recognize that I would need to get a
20 unanimous vote this evening.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Correct.
22 MR. BUSSEY: I have appeared in front
23 of Zoning Boards a time or two, and some
24 Boards are reluctant in midstream, jump up
1 in a Motion in trouble and offer a tabling.
2 Others are very comfortable in doing that to
3 offer the Petitioner an opportunity to
4 proceed and try to resolve the matter, but
5 not force the Petitioner to refile if the
6 votes aren't there in this situation.
7 So, I might ask, Mr. Chairman, if that
8 might be an option that if things aren't
9 quite unanimous where folk feel like it's
10 the right thing to do tonight, if I might be
11 able to secure a tabling and revisit this
12 thing in -- is September the next meeting?
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, sir.
14 MR. BUSSEY: When there is a greater
15 attendance. I recognize that with summer
16 schedules it's a natural thing that folks
17 would not be in full number.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What we will do
19 is, with permission, make sure we cover all
20 our legal grounds, we can move forward with
21 this, allow the public to speak and continue
22 and get comments, et cetera, but prior to a
23 Motion, offer the tabling option to the
1 MS. KUDLA: Prior to a Motion we can
2 do that, or if the Motion was made, we could
3 do -- what we do with a person regarding
4 reconsideration, the chain of standard.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: My preference
6 would be prior to the Motion, and the reason
7 for that is you will be able to tell the
8 feelings of the Members present as to the
9 direction they would be going based on the
10 comments and questions. So, you should be
11 able to make an intelligent decision at that
13 MR. BUSSEY: Thank you, Mr. Chair. I
14 appreciate the flexibility. In brief, in
15 this particular case because of the request
16 for the canopy, the City has asked for us
17 not just for us to put a photograph together
18 or something along those lines, which I
19 don't have with me, it asked us to actually
20 install it so that your staff can view the
21 actual canopy as it would appear because
22 this sort of request doesn't come around all
23 that often. So, we have
24 installed it. As we were preparing to do
1 that, we worked very closely with your
2 Building Department in a couple of areas.
3 One, the texture and durability of the
4 fabric. There was a concern that if,
5 indeed, the canopy made sense by this Body,
6 that it not be of such a wear-through fabric
7 that a few rain storms and maybe a good wind
8 might tatter the thing.
9 So, we worked very closely with a
10 grade of durable fabric and came to an
11 agreement with the Building Department about
12 the right sort of strong weatherproof
13 durable fabric. So, that's the kind of
14 fabric we put up. Additionally,
15 there was a concern that if our goal truly
16 be to sign our facility to offer some
17 signage to the public where there is
18 currently none, that it not be so
19 aggressive to the eye. That it be somewhat
20 of a not so aesthetic offer.
21 Significantly to that point, we did
22 want to interior light the fabric so that as
23 the evening hours approached, which, of
24 course, with Whirly Ball this is an adult
1 function by many business groups and clubs,
2 that there be evening hours, of course. And
3 certainly with the sports center there is
4 evening hours as well. We wanted to add
5 interior light and back light. The City
6 didn't want that. So, we also agreed not to
7 install any lighting. So, there is no back
9 The awning is there as it appears
10 during the daylight hours and offers
11 daylight signage which really was our goal.
12 Because as, Mr. Chair, you cited into the
13 record, the Ordinance allows under the
14 business signage for our zone, either a
15 ground sign or a wall sign. Currently
16 neither option is available -- well,
17 certainly the ground sign is not available
18 to us.
19 If you are familiar with where we are
20 located on the site, we are further back on
21 the property. It's a viable site. And the
22 sports complex there with families is
23 certainly a very busy and active place, is a
24 ways back, and a ground sign was not
1 available to us.
2 And we simply didn't pursue the wall
3 signage because on one occasion, on one hand
4 we thought it would be really not very
5 effective at all. Plus, to be even a bit
6 eye catching, it would have to be so
7 dramatic in color that we really felt it
8 would be aesthetically unappealing. This
9 would be our only signage available. The
10 greater visibility as well.
11 We asked for the additional
12 square footage for really only one reason,
13 and that is at this site, the way the
14 parking is situated, there really is no way
15 to adequately canopy without a canopy on the
16 side of the building and on the front of the
17 building where parking is all available.
18 So, if we only did one side of the building,
19 we miss the side where most of the parking
20 actually is on the west side of the
22 And if we only put the signage canopy
23 there, then we wouldn't have any signage
24 where there is actually the thoroughfare,
1 Grand River and the side street. So, this
2 really is the practical difficulty that we
3 found ourselves in. How to provide signage
4 that is adequate, satisfactory and eye
5 catching, but not the standards available to
6 us. The wall signage or the ground signage
7 which I have shared with you, really don't
8 seem to work with this location.
9 We do otherwise meet all the other
10 Ordinances. We have worked, as I said, with
11 the Building Department to make sure we did.
12 We have even conferred regarding the types
13 of graphics that we are using so that they
14 are not a gaudy or anything more than
15 legible to the eye.
16 Overall, I think we certainly for
17 this kind of signage and our location, I
18 know you are obviously under the Ordinance
19 you need to review on a case-by-case basis,
20 I think the uniqueness of this site provides
21 a basis for a positive vote this evening.
22 There wouldn't be any detriment. We
23 are located in that zone, that is currently
24 an industrial zone, if you will, although we
1 do have a condominium to the far side. They
2 really provides -- that's not the site where
3 the canopies would be. And we do think that
4 about meeting all Ordinances, that we do
5 offer one addition to our patrons, and that
6 is, that there, of course, is some
7 protection from the elements, which
8 currently there is no awning or over guard
9 on that building at this time.
10 I am certainly very willing to answer
11 any questions, Mr. Chair, and Members, that
12 you might have this evening.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. With
14 this being a public hearing, is there any
15 members of the audience who care to comment
16 on this case?
17 Seeing none, I will close the public
18 hearing and move on to talk about the
19 notices at this point. 307 notices were
20 mailed with zero approvals and one
22 The objection is: That the property
23 is not maintained and upkeep properly now,
24 so any additions would only add to the
1 current problem. That was from Linda Krause
2 at 41606 Grandview (ph) Lane.
3 Was there additional letters in the
4 packet? I don't remember. I think that was
5 the only one. That's the only one.
6 Any comments from the City or
7 Counsel regarding this case?
8 MS. KUDLA: None from Counsel.
9 MR. FOX: We have no comments.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
11 At this point we will open it up to
12 the Board for discussion.
13 Member Wrobel?
14 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
15 I have been to this location and I can't
16 find it. I have no problem with the sign
17 whatsoever. It's larger than what is
18 allowed, but given the size of the building,
19 it is in proportion to the building. So, as
20 far as having a larger sign, I see no
21 problem with it.
22 And given the way the building sits on
23 the property and the entrance and egress
24 from it, both signs, I understand why both
1 signs are needed. So I can support this
2 easily. Thank you.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
4 Other comments? Okay, I will
5 make mine.
6 I was there last week and didn't
7 see the awnings up. When were they
9 MR. BUSSEY: Just a day or two ago.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That doesn't
11 help us much.
12 MR. BUSSEY: Well, I know some of the
13 Building folk were there. In all candor,
14 Mr. Chairman, we, not really knowing what
15 you folk might think, to really go ahead and
16 write the check and get it built and get it
17 up there in the event that we might have to
18 take it down was a little bit of a concern
19 that we internally negotiated and discussed.
20 But it just seemed that frankly, you know,
21 the City was so good to work with when we
22 went in there.
23 You might recall a couple years back
24 when the City really just wanted because of
1 the patrons, wanted us to have separate
2 entrances and we sort of had to do work with
3 the landlord, which we are not -- and, by
4 the way, the resident that has asked about
5 the upkeep, I will send correspondence to
6 the landlord tomorrow to ask that that be
7 addressed. That the summer months, a lot of
8 grass can grow when folk aren't looking.
9 But the City was so great to work
10 with, we thought, you know what, let's go
11 ahead. And so we put it up. So, that's
12 why it didn't get up much earlier. But it's
13 up there now.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And this is
15 totally separate from Soccer Zone?
16 MR. BUSSEY: Yep, a separate entrance.
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Explain to me
18 which entrance is which. Without the
19 awnings I didn't know where to look.
20 MR. BUSSEY: We are best entered on
21 the west side of the building. So, Soccer
22 Zone is on the south side. And if you --
23 once you are in Soccer Zone you can't get in
24 our facility unless you go around outside
1 because we have a liquor license as you know
2 and we wanted to protect the families.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So your awnings
4 are over the west side entrance. And where
5 is the second awning?
6 MR. BUSSEY: West and south.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Beside Soccer
9 MR. BUSSEY: Down further from the
10 Soccer Zone entrance.
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Further west?
12 MR. BUSSEY: Yes.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I am trying to
14 picture it in my mind, trying to understand.
15 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer, a
16 point of clarification through the Chair.
17 The Applicant, Igor Kacmarcik on behalf of
18 Whirly Ball employed by Marygrove Awning,
19 was well aware that a mock sign made of not
20 awning material, but another fabric or
21 material that wasn't permanent was permitted
22 to be at ground level as long as it was the
23 exact dimensions on two sides as the awning
24 would be installed on the building itself.
1 Several conversations ensued with the
2 actual applicant, Igor Kacmarcik, as well as
3 the people at Marygrove who construct these
4 awnings about the practicality of doing
6 They were advised that should they
7 move forward with actually producing this
8 awning, that that was a contractual
9 relationship with their client, Whirly Ball,
10 and that the City did not encourage them to
11 do that should they be denied.
12 It was my understanding that a mock
13 sign, whatever they did come up with was
14 going to be out for your inspection, they
15 were well aware 7 to 10 days before the
16 Hearing, and then brought in in the evening
17 so that there wouldn't be any damage or
18 possible theft of the mock signage, whatever
19 it was determined to be. That was just a
20 point of clarification.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you very
22 much for that clarification.
23 Do you by chance have with you this up
24 there? If not, could you put this on the
1 overhead for our audience?
2 MR. BUSSEY: I sure can if I could
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We don't have a
5 picture of the building with it on it, at
6 least they can see what the logo would look
8 And the other question that I would
9 have just to make sure, It's my
10 understanding that the logo itself is not
11 repeated on the awning. It's once in the
12 center in the front and on each end or just
13 one end?
14 MR. BUSSEY: One end as I recall when
15 I took a peek at it.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, the logo is
17 centered on the front and on one end which
18 would be the entrance end, on each of the
19 two awnings?
20 MR. BUSSEY: That's correct.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And the lighting
22 is only now it's not from the inside, it's
23 the normal exterior lighting in the building
24 in the parking lot?
1 MR. BUSSEY: That's correct. I think
2 the City's concern was that it not look
3 like, you know, sometimes the convenience
4 stores will have the all night thing going
5 on. And we respect that.
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I
7 have no further comments. I am not opposed
8 to this. I think the colors being basic and
9 reading through the information I think the
10 colors are appropriate and it's not to the
11 size where it would be gaudy or
12 unattractive. And I fully understand that
13 this is a location that is difficult to find
14 without any type of signage, so I would be
15 in favor of this variance.
16 Member Fischer?
17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Are both
18 awnings over public entrances?
19 MR. BUSSEY: They are.
20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: So, they
21 public can enter both entrances?
22 MR. BUSSEY: Into the Whirly Ball
24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I just
1 wanted to make sure one wasn't just up there
2 for fun and it's just a private employee
3 entrance or something to that effect, so,
4 that's where I was going with that question.
5 I agree with you, Mr. Chairman. Thank
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other
8 comments? I will entertain a Motion?
9 Member Krieger?
10 MEMBER KRIEGER: In Case number:
11 07-053 filed by Igor Kacmarcik of Marygrove
12 Awnings for Whirly Ball located at 41540
13 Grand River Avenue, I move to approve the
14 Applicant's request for a sign to be -- the
15 Applicant is requesting a canopy sign over
16 the entrance to the building. And it to be
17 a total of 40 square feet in canopy signage.
18 And the uniqueness of the area and the
19 difficulty, the practical difficulty in
20 finding this area and to be created as
21 design as presented.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there a
23 second to the Motion?
24 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Second.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, it's been
2 moved by Member Krieger. Seconded by Member
4 Any further discussion?
5 MS. KUDLA: I believe that we just
6 have a comment on some of the pictures
7 submitted, there may be an existing sign,
8 and that there may need to be a condition
9 that additional signage be removed.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I thought that
11 was understood. It would make more sense to
12 have it clarified in a Motion.
13 MEMBER KRIEGER: That when this sign
14 is placed up and under the conditions, that
15 any previous signs will be removed.
16 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Agreed.
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
18 Under further discussions I will make a
19 comment. And I appreciate your comment that
20 the City has been very good to work with.
21 We are hearing more and more of that
22 all the time and it makes me proud to be
23 affiliated with the City. However, anything
24 that comes forward to us in the future,
1 please make sure that the Applicant
2 understands that he needs to get a mock-up
3 up prior to, I believe seven to ten days is
4 the request because we're very busy people
5 as well and it's not very fair to us to have
6 to make multiple trips back to the location.
7 MR. BUSSEY: So acknowledged, Mr.
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If you would do
10 that, I would appreciate it.
11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Not only
12 that, Mr. Chairman, but also, and I know
13 Robin works very hard keeping the rules
14 intact, and, so, we don't want to get
15 involved in any situation where a permanent
16 sign is put up by mistake. When
17 (unintelligible) as soon as the material is
18 presented, a mock-up cardboard, I don't care
19 if it's paper that your kid might have drawn
20 on, as long as it's the same dimensions.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Many of us are
22 very visual. We need to see those. With a
23 four Member Board in which you have to have
24 all four approved tonight, it could have
1 been touchy and may still be touchy.
2 So, at this point, please call the
4 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
6 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
8 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
10 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
11 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
12 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve passes
14 MR. BUSSEY: Thank you kindly, Board
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have always
17 operated under the policy that after the
18 meeting is approximately 90 minutes old, we
19 try to take at least a 5-minute break to
20 give us a breather before we move on. It
21 started at 7:30, it is now 9:00. So, I
22 would like to call a 5-minute break before
23 we move on to the next case. Thank you.
24 (A recess was held.)
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We are going to
2 reconvene. And at this time I will ask as
3 we did earlier, if there is anyone in the
4 audience that is here to represent a case
5 that cares to have the case tabled until
6 next month or after that since we do only
7 have four members and do not have a full
8 Board this evening?
9 Nobody is raising their hands, so we
10 will continue to move forward.
12 Our next case is Case number:
13 07-054 filed by Sarah Gardner of Coy
14 Construction for 23485 Winthrop Court.
15 They are requesting a 5 and a half
16 foot rear yard setback variance for the
17 construction of a screened and enclosed
18 gazebo on an existing deck to be located at
19 23485 Winthrop Court. The property is zoned
20 R-4 and is located south of Ten Mile Road
21 and east of Novi Road.
22 The Ordinance Article Section 24 --
23 Article 24 Section 2400 Schedule of
24 Regulations requires a minimum rear yard
1 setback of 35 feet. As mentioned, they are
2 requesting 5.5 feet.
3 The Applicant I see has come forward,
4 so please state your name and address, and
5 if you are not an attorney, be sworn in by
6 our Vice Chair.
7 MS. GARDNER: I'm Sara Gardner with
8 Coy Construction and it's 4214 Martin Road
9 in Commerce Township, Michigan.
10 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Would you
11 raise your hand? Do you swear to tell the
12 truth regarding Case number: 07-054?
13 MS. GARDNER: Yes.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state
15 your case.
16 MS. GARDNER: I guess I'm just here to
17 request a 5 and a half foot rear yard
18 setback for a screened in porch. If Chris
19 was sitting there he could vouch that we do
20 a lot in the City of Novi, screened in
21 porches, that is. I am here just to
22 represent my company and the homeowner and
23 myself. That's all I got.
24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I like those
1 short and sweet presentations.
2 This is a public hearing, so at this
3 time I will ask if there is anyone in the
4 audience who cares to speak on this case?
5 Seeing none, we will close the public
6 hearing and indicate that we have sent out
7 42 notices. We received three approvals and
8 zero objections.
9 The approvals were from Steve and
10 Jeannine Paige 23452 Winthrop Court. It
11 says: We have no issue with this request.
12 The second one was from a J. Michael
13 Johnson, 44180 Winthrop Drive. He states: I
14 approve of any capital improvements to my
15 neighbors' homes. This particular neighbor
16 has good taste, and I am confident that it
17 will only improve the value of his property
18 and the surrounding properties.
19 Where is the third one? It's the
20 letter from a Linda V. Lamb, 23496 Winthrop
21 Court states: To whom it may concern. My
22 wife and I have lived at 23496 Winthrop
23 Court since 1980. We feel that the addition
24 of a deck and screened room at 23485
1 Winthrop Court is a favorable addition and
2 will help to increase property values for
3 the residents of Orchard Ridge Estates
4 Subdivision. We are in favor of your
5 acceptance of this requested 5 and a half
6 rear setback variance.
7 In addition, I happen to be the
8 chairman of the Architectural Committee for
9 our subdivision. We reviewed the drawings
10 for this project and accepted them as
11 submitted. We look upon this project as a
12 favorable addition to our neighborhood.
13 And, again, that was Lynn W. Lamb.
14 MS. GARDNER: Can I just say that I
15 like all three of the letters.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is there any
17 comments from the City or Counsel?
18 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, in
19 place of Chris Fox who is looking into the
20 matter for the case coming up, number 9 on
21 the agenda. This deck has been fully
22 permitted to be built without the screened
23 in porch, but because the Applicant is now
24 requesting to screen in the gazebo, it
1 becomes an accessory structure by our
2 Ordinance and does require the setback
3 variance because it then encroaches too far
4 into the rear yard setback.
5 So, Coy Construction has followed all
6 the requirements from the City in pulling
7 the proper permits and having the plans
8 reviewed, it just now requires the variance
9 that is before you.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I
11 will turn it over to the Board for comments
12 and questions. Member
14 MEMBER WROBEL: I have no problem with
15 this. The screened in porch portion only
16 extends 11 feet behind the back of the house
17 which is well within normal range.
18 I just have a comment. Why didn't you
19 come out for the homeowner for me when Coy
20 built my home? I had to come out myself and
21 plead my case.
22 MS. GARDNER: You know, I was there
23 when we built yours, yeah.
24 MR. WROBEL: Other than that, I guess
1 I have no problems with it. I know that
2 they will do good work and it will be done
3 correctly. (Unintelligible)
4 MS. GARDNER: Thank you.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: She wouldn't
6 have said much for you either.
7 MR. WROBEL: I know.
8 MS. GARDNER: It would have been short
9 and sweet.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other
12 MS. KUDLA: At this point I would just
13 like to indicate that the Applicant has the
14 burden of proving the practical difficulty
15 in putting facts on the record regarding
16 whether there is a practical difficulty.
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Member Fischer?
18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can you put
19 this map on the overhead for us?
20 MS. GARDNER: Sure.
21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Now, this
22 house in question it is built on a
23 cul-de-sac; is that correct?
24 MS. GARDNER: Yes.
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And it is
2 built in kind of a pie shaped lot?
3 MS. GARDNER: Yes.
4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Does that
5 make it a little more difficult to meet the
6 Ordinance? Is that part of the difficulty
7 that you are establishing today?
8 MS. GARDNER: I imagine it's part of
9 the difficulty.
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The answer is
12 MS. GARDNER: Yes, sorry.
13 MS. KUDLA: It's something to
15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Any other
16 unique characteristics?
17 MS. GARDNER: No. His brother-in-law
18 lives across the street and we just finished
19 his yesterday.
20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That's
22 Seeing no other comments being made by
23 the Board at this time, I would move that we
24 approve Case number: 07-054 as requested
1 due to the practical difficulty shown by the
2 Petitioner. That it has been built, in
3 fact, on an existing deck foundation. The
4 unique lot shape being built on a cul-de-sac
5 makes it more difficult to meet the
6 Ordinances of the City of Novi.
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
9 by Member Fischer and a second by Member
11 Any additional comments or discussions
12 from the Board or the attorney?
13 MS. KUDLA: No.
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We're okay?
15 Please call the roll.
16 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
17 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
18 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
20 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
21 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
22 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
24 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 4-0.
1 MS. GARDNER: Thank you very much.
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
4 The next case on the agenda is
5 Case number: 07-055 filed by Richard
6 Sinkevics of 1430 West Lake Drive.
7 The Applicant is requesting one front
8 yard setback variance and one exterior side
9 yard setback variance for the construction
10 of the new home to be located 1430 West Lake
11 Drive in the John Hawthorne Sub No. 2. The
12 property is zoned R-4 and located south of
13 Pontiac Trail and east of West Park Drive.
14 Under our City Ordinances Article 24
15 Section 2400 Schedule of Regulations
16 requires a minimum front yard setback at
17 30 feet and a minimum exterior side yard
18 setback of 30 feet.
19 As mentioned, the variances requested,
20 he is looking for a 16.75-foot front yard
21 setback variance. And a 15.08-foot side
22 yard setback. So, the two setback variances
23 are requested for the construction of the
24 new home.
1 Is the Applicant present?
2 MS. WORKING: Mr. Chair, if I may,
3 Chris Fox was just looking into this matter.
4 He has contacted the Applicant. He was
5 under the mistaken impression that he was to
6 attend the Wednesday, August 8th, Hearing
7 which he was then informed that it was a
8 Planning Commission meeting. He was a bit
9 confused. He is on his way here now. If
10 the Board would consider hearing him last
11 and allowing the next case on the agenda, if
12 they are present to be heard. It is your
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any objections
15 from any of the Board Members? We are all
16 in favor of allowing him to be placed last
17 on the agenda of the public hearings.
19 All right. Then we will move forward
20 to the last public hearing, which is Case
21 number: 07-056 filed by Dave Nona of
22 Triangle Main Street, LLC for Main Street
23 Phase I.
24 The Applicant is requesting 11
1 variances for the construction of two
2 buildings to include a medical office
3 building with a restaurant and retail space
4 as well as a parking garage.
5 They are requesting two building
6 setback variances for the construction of
7 the medical office building and parking
8 garage; one parking lot setback variance for
9 on-street parking; one variance for the
10 requirement that a screen wall be installed
11 along parking in an exterior side yard; one
12 variance from the loading zone location
13 requirement; one variance for the dumpster
14 location in an exterior side yard; one
15 setback variance from the required ten foot
16 minimum for a dumpster, and one variance
17 from the minimum sidewalk width of 12.5'
18 along Paul Bunyan.
19 The property is zoned TC-1 and located
20 south of Grand River Avenue and east of Novi
22 I am not going to repeat all the
23 variances since I've covered them briefly in
24 the previous statement.
1 Is the Applicant present? This one is
3 Please come forward, state your names
4 and addresses, and if you are not attorneys,
5 be sworn in by our Vice Chair.
6 MS. TRAXER (ph): I am Sarah Traxer
7 with McKenna & Associates of 235 East Main
8 Street, Suite 105, Northville, Michigan
10 MR. NONA: And I am Dave Nona of
11 Triangle Main Street, L.L.C. Our address is
12 30403 West 13 Mile Road, Farmington Hills,
14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: If you
15 could raise your hand. Do you swear to tell
16 the truth regarding Case number: 07-056?
17 MS. TRAXER: I do.
18 MR. NONA: I do.
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Proceed with
21 your case.
22 MS. KUDLA: Mr. Chairman, do we want
23 to give them the opportunity to table this?
24 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you very
1 much for bringing that up at this point. We
2 have been trying to ask the Applicants if
3 they want it tabled, knowing that we do not
4 have a full Board present and that you be in
5 a need of requiring all four approvals of
6 the people present to pass.
7 MS. TRAXER: We do appreciate that
8 offer and Mr. Nona and I have discussed it
9 and I think as you will see during our
10 presentation, are eager to move forward with
11 the project, so I think we are going to go
12 ahead and move forward this evening. Thank
14 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
15 And thank you for reminding me.
16 MS. TRAXER: My name is Sarah Traxer
17 as I stated before. I work for McKenna &
18 Associates which is the planning and design
19 department that is assisting Mr. Nona and
20 Triangle Main Street, L.L.C., in this Main
21 Street Novi Development.
22 I know that you all have seen us in
23 front of you before, and we appreciate your
24 patience in being able to see us again
1 tonight. We do have additional requests for
2 variances for this unique Main Street Novi
4 Acknowledging that you had have a long
5 night, I am going to keep it brief, as I
6 know you have had your packets for a while
7 to review, and I imagine that you have
8 questions, and I figure that may be the
9 right forum in which to present why we think
10 that the variances are necessary and valid
12 However, I would just like to
13 state as that you have presumed from the
14 staff review or the agenda that was
15 presented to you tonight, you can see that
16 the variance requests in front of you are
17 related to the planned Phase I of
18 construction for the Main Street Novi
20 There have been some change conditions
21 surrounding the location of Paul Bunyan
22 Drive, which on the plans in front of you is
23 labeled as Memorial Street.
24 Essentially where we were going to move
1 forward with vacating the street, at this
2 time that has been removed from the table,
3 although, we are still trying to get that
4 done which necessitates us coming in front
5 of you for most of the variances here
7 It's very important for me to state to
8 you that the overall plans and designs have
9 not changed whatsoever. The plan that you
10 are seeing tonight is the same in both
11 concept and the actual detail as the ones
12 that you have had presented to you before
13 and have also been preliminarily approved by
14 the Planning Commission.
15 I already expressed that this was part
16 of the construction of Phase 1, the variance
17 requests in front of you tonight. And as
18 was noted on the agenda, the planned work,
19 the site work meant the construction of a
20 medical office building with restaurant and
21 retail. And that's Building 800 in front of
22 you and a parking deck which is Building 700
23 on the plan.
24 We are very eager to receive all the
1 planning and building approvals for this
2 project to move forward. We think it's an
3 exciting project that really encapsulates
4 what the City is looking towards in their
5 Main Street area, downtown area and the TC-1
7 So, I presume that you will have
8 questions moving forward with the individual
9 variance requests and we will be happy to
10 hopefully address all of those at that time.
11 Thank you.
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
13 Any comments, sir?
14 MR. NONA: I would just like to add
15 that even though now Memorial Street, half
16 of it is still public and the setback
17 requirements in the TC District apply to
18 public road. And, in fact, it does not go
19 to be the street where pedestrians would be
20 moving or any of the retail shops would be
21 fronting. So, it's more like an alley, a
22 back alley. And that's why we believe that
23 the setback requirements of the building as
24 well as the requirements with the width of
1 the sidewalk fronting this public street are
2 not as critical as they would be, let's say
3 on Main Street or the other streets where
4 pedestrians would be walking.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
6 With this being a public hearing, is
7 there anyone in the audience who cares to
8 make a comment on this case? Please come
10 MS. TARKEY: Come here?
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, ma'am.
12 Please come up to the microphone and state
13 your name and address and you got to be
14 sworn in too.
15 MS. TARKEY (ph): My name is Violet
16 Tarkey and I am representing Novi Auto
17 Parts, Tommy's Tire and Dan's Auto Repair
18 who you all right next to each other on the
19 front of the development.
20 I have a letter. I have no problem
21 with any of the variances, none of us have a
22 problem with any of the variances. It's a
23 big piece of property. It's a great
24 development, we're all excited about it.
1 But we just want to address this thing, and
2 maybe this isn't the place to do it, maybe
3 it is.
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Hold on a second
5 just a second if you would. Does she need
6 to be sworn in as well?
7 MS. KUDLA: No.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I didn't think
10 MS. TARKEY: I'm not going to lie.
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay.
12 MS. TARKEY: This is regarding, in
13 effect they have known about it and he has
14 assured me that everything will be okay, and
15 I just want to put in the record someplace
16 about the water drainage, because when the
17 original property from the first building
18 they dug the tunnels and the parking garage
19 and the basement and then they pile the dirt
20 up there, then we get all the runoff, and
21 it's come into our buildings when there has
22 been big floods.
23 So, he has assured me that that's
24 going to be handled, but I guess I just want
1 it put in the record. Can we do that? Is
2 this the time and place to do it or not?
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: By making the
4 statement it is in the record.
5 MS. TARKEY: Okay. Should I read this
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Can we
8 place the letter in the record just by
10 MS. WORKING: Through the Chair, in
11 the December case of Main Street requesting
12 variances before you, Violet did submit a
13 record in response and it did begin, I will
14 be out of town. And she indicated her
15 concerns, and it is an official part of that
17 I will be happy to duplicate the
18 letter that you sent to us to be a formal
19 part of this record in addition to the
20 transcription minutes if it pleases the
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I think that
23 would be appropriate.
24 MS. TARKEY: Then should I read this
1 one too? This is from my brother-in-law.
2 Now, he is Up North.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Sure, go ahead.
4 MS. TARKEY: Again, I am doing this on
5 the behalf of the three property owners
6 there on the front. And it just says: We
7 are currently troubled by how the storm
8 water runoff from the project will be
9 handled. The problems were originally
10 caused by the huge hill that was created
11 when the dirt from the basement and parking
12 garage on the original Main Street project
13 were disposed of.
14 We are driven around the property and
15 checked on the wall that separates the two
16 levels of parking lots on the north side as
17 large relief holes cut through to allow
18 runoff. But the runoff then flows down
19 toward our property. So, there is just one
20 storm drain on the north corner of Tommy's
21 Tire, but the water that's flowing that way
22 is diverted right downhill towards Tommy's.
23 We had a very bad flood a few years
24 ago that affected all of us and we have been
1 told more than once that it would be
2 corrected, but nothing has been done. So,
3 we are just trying to make sure the new
4 project will not bring more problems if it's
5 not addressed at the beginning.
6 So, he kind of wanted a written
7 statement. This is my brother-in-law's
8 wording covering the following: That the
9 proposed masonry screen wall shown on, it's
10 one of the big plans, form WL 1A be
11 completed now not at some later date. And
12 that no relief holes be cut through that
13 wall that would allow storm water to flow
14 onto our properties to the north. And that
15 the storm water catch basins along this wall
16 be installed.
17 And Mr. Nona has just told me they are
18 going to do that. But here is the letter.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: The letter is
20 part of the record having been read. But I
21 do want to make sure that you do understand
22 that it is out of the scope of the
23 jurisdiction of the Zoning Board of Appeals.
24 MS. TARKEY: I figured it was. But I
1 just come to every meeting so we don't end
2 up with what we did before where somebody
3 just put a hill and let the water come in.
4 But he is not going to do that.
5 Then do you need this letter?
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: If you care to
7 give it to our Secretary, we would like to
8 include it.
9 MS. TARKEY: But, again, we have no
10 problem, and none of us have a problem with
11 any of the zoning variances that he is
12 requesting. It's a big piece of property.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Are you through,
15 MS. TARKEY: Um-hum.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I am going to
17 close the public hearing, but at this time
18 does the Applicant care to comment further?
19 MR. NONA: I just wanted to say that
20 when this issue was first brought to our
21 attention I went to the site, I looked at it
22 and directed our engineers to take some
23 elevations. And this issue has been taken
24 into consideration in the design and
1 engineering plans. And if I were to go and
2 check the engineering plans, I would be
3 happy to share those plans with you.
4 So, we have attempted to put in some
5 catch basins to a piece of the property line
6 to take care of this issue.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, thank you.
8 We have mailed 43 notices and received zero
9 approvals and zero objections.
10 Any comments from the City or Counsel?
11 Oh, our Planner wants to speak.
12 MS. KAPELANSKI: Yes. Just through
13 the Chair. First off, I just wanted to let
14 everyone know that I will talk with our
15 engineer tomorrow about the runoff of storm
16 water comments to make sure he is aware of
17 the issue.
18 And also, I just wanted to
19 reiterate the fact that these variances that
20 are being requested tonight are a result of
21 Paul Bunyan not being vacated. And that in
22 order to keep the street uniform and kind of
23 maintain the look of the Main Street
24 development, the Applicant is requesting the
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
3 MS. KUDLA: I would just like to add
4 that, in the event that the Board is
5 considering granting the variances, a single
6 motion could be made to grant all variances
7 with denial as being considered. You want
8 to consider each individual variance on its
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
11 MS. KUDLA: And grounds for a Motion
12 could be the basis that the variances are
13 necessitated because of the inability to
14 vacate Paul Bunyan Drive.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is it an
16 inability or is it a decision not to vacate?
17 MS. KUDLA: It was a difficulty. It
18 was not a complete inability. It was a
19 difficulty in determining what would happen
20 to the property after it was vacated. So,
21 at this time it was determined to proceed
22 forward without vacating it. While at the
23 same time we are still considering whether
24 it could be vacated in the future.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. Very
3 MR. NONA: May I make a comment?
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Hold on a
6 Any further comments from the City?
7 MS. KUDLA: No.
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Go ahead, sir.
9 MR. NONA: As to the issue of the
10 vacation, I know we encountered some
11 difficulties, but we are still in the
12 process right now in negotiations to pursue
13 back the vacation, so I think this is still
14 doable. Very doable, I would say.
15 In the meantime, we did not want to
16 delay the project for that. We are trying
17 to break ground this season.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I understand.
19 MS. TRAXER: If I may, as a procedural
20 matter, were Paul Bunyan to be vacated it
21 would essentially render most of the
22 variances in this batch moot, I would say.
23 We are trying to cover all the bases, and
24 like Mr. Nona said, before this fall.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: To the Planner,
2 is there any of the variances that would not
3 be affected?
4 MS. KAPELANSKI: Yes. Just to
5 confirm, all the variances are a result of
6 Paul Bunyan not being vacated.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
8 At this time I will open up it up to the
9 Board for discussion to my left. No one
10 wants to talk about this.
11 Well, I will begin. One of the
12 questions that I would have -- well, the
13 first one is, I didn't know where Paul
14 Bunyan was. Because none of the information
15 we received showed or listed Paul Bunyan on
16 the paperwork. But now that you said that,
17 it actually makes more sense.
18 In looking through all of them. I
19 didn't have any major problems. I did have
20 a question, if a traffic study was done or
21 needed on Paul Bunyan?
22 MR. NONA: A traffic study, a fairly
23 extensive traffic study was done by
24 (Unintelligible). It was fairly extensive.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And the results?
2 MR. NONA: Basically the results, they
3 had some concerns about whether you can make
4 left turns from Memorial, that type of
5 thing. I think most of those issues had
6 been resolved.
7 MS. TRAXER: All of those results were
8 reviewed, I believe, by the Planning
9 Commission when they gave their preliminary
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: What is the
12 current speed limit? I assume it's 25, and
13 what would it be once it's completed?
14 MR. NONA: We want it to be as slow as
16 MS. TRAXER: Yes.
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Drop down to 15.
18 MR. NONA: Exactly.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have no
20 control over that if it's not a public
21 street. Where do we stand on that?
22 MS. KAPELANSKI: Can you repeat that?
23 MR. NONA: No, we want the speed limit
24 to be as slow as possible. These are going
1 to be Town Center streets whereby traffic is
2 going on at the same time as pedestrians, so
3 we want traffic to be going very slowly.
4 MS. KUDLA: It would be a city street
5 and it could be considered by the City
6 traffic engineer, the traffic controller
8 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: As long as it's
9 a dedicated street. Once it's vacated --
10 MS. KUDLA: Once it's vacated as a
11 private street they have the right to set
12 the speed limit to whatever was appropriate.
13 MR. NONA: By the way, even though we
14 do have some other streets that are
15 technically private, we are providing some
16 kind of an agreement with the city that
17 those all can be used by the public.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Obviously my
19 reason for that question is public safety,
20 walking from a parking building to the
21 adjacent, even though it's a medical
22 building, if they get hit I guess they got
23 somebody to take care of them.
24 Obviously we don't want ever want
1 to have any type of accident in the city.
2 MR. NONA: Excuse me, also one of the
3 other requirements was we are trying to also
4 provide a maintenance agreement to the City
5 so that the maintenance of this section of
6 the road would be our responsibility.
7 Because Paul Bunyan doesn't extend all the
8 way. It's only half of that Memorial Street
9 is public and half of it is private.
10 MS. TRAXER: Up to here is public if
11 you can see that.
12 MR. NONA: Up to this point from here
13 to here is public. From here to here is
15 MS. KUDLA: The Applicant would have
16 the right to have --
17 MR. NONA: From here to here is
18 public. That's the only portion. From here
19 to here is private. So, our plan was to
20 basically vacate this so that it's all
21 private and we provide some kind of an
22 agreement for access and what have you,
23 public use.
24 MS. KUDLA: At the request of the
1 property owner, the motor vehicle code can
2 be enforced on private property by the City
3 police department.
4 MS. KAPELANSKI: Just to let you know,
5 the traffic consultant would have reviewed
6 all aspects of safety as far as the roads
7 are concerned with geometry of the roads,
8 pedestrian safety, so that would involve a
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Likewise with
11 the sidewalk, because I do have a concern
12 from cutting back from 12 and a half to
13 seven feet.
14 MS. KAPELANSKI: Our usual streets
15 along public streets we require 5 to 8-foot
16 sidewalks. Residential developments would
17 require 9-foot sidewalks. The Applicant has
18 requested a 11-foot sidewalk, so that would
19 above the usual standards for a residential
20 type street.
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. The
22 only other comment I had on Building 800 and
23 Building 700, one of the comments or one of
24 the discussions was initially to require
1 that a two and a half foot brick wall or a
2 landscape berm be placed. And if I remember
3 reading it correctly, you are asking that
4 that be waived as well?
5 MS. TRAXER: I believe that the
6 requirement is is that landscape berm be
7 placed adjacent to the parking area which in
8 this case is just a little.
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Can you show us
10 where that is?
11 MS. TRAXER: Yes. Are we speaking
12 along Paul Bunyan here?
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
14 MS. KAPELANSKI: Just to clarify, the
15 Ordinance is very silent on on street
16 parking and doesn't really address it at
17 all. So, the landscaped wall will be
18 required for off street parking and parking
19 in general. But since the Ordinance doesn't
20 address on street parking it would be
21 technically be required bordering the on
22 street parking spaces.
23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Is required?
24 MS. KAPELANSKI: Yes.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So, we don't
2 have to address that this evening?
3 MS. KAPELANSKI: They would need a
4 variance to say that the screen wall is not
5 required to shield the parking spaces. If
6 they were to meet the requirements, a wall
7 would have to be along the edge of the
8 sidewalk shielding the parking spaces from
10 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And also
11 providing a safety barrier for pedestrians?
12 MS. KAPELANSKI: I think the intent of
13 the Ordinance is not necessarily a safety
14 barrier, but more as a landscape screening
15 aesthetic system.
16 MS. TRAXER: Mr. Chair, if I may.
17 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes, ma'am.
18 MS. TRAXER: In urban environments
19 what we are trying to achieve here, and we
20 think the intent of the TC-1 district really
21 is, it's often used to angle on street
22 parking or parallel parking spaces actually
23 serve as their own buffer between moving
24 vehicular traffic and the pedestrian
1 traffic. So, while (unintelligible) on this
2 matter, we think that the on street parking
3 stalls would effectively serve the same
4 purpose as that berm or stone wall.
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. I
6 personally like the idea of having a two and
7 a half foot wall. I don't think there is
8 enough room for a berm, but I think the wall
9 would be attractive and actually add to the
10 aesthetics. And actually that's what the
11 intent was of the Ordinance anyway.
12 I don't have any further comments.
13 Member Wrobel?
14 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you, Mr. Chair.
15 Does our esteem Planner wish to add
16 anything else? I know I sound like Victor.
17 Because I know we talked this to death in
18 the Planning Commission before we sent this
19 out to the ZBA, and were very happy what we
20 came out with. And I just wanted to know if
21 you wanted to add anything else for their
23 MS. KAPELANSKI: No, I don't have any
24 other comments.
1 MEMBER WROBEL: I am quite pleased
2 with this. I can support it.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Other comments?
4 Entertain a Motion?
5 And as the attorney recommended, if
6 we're motioning to approve, let's look at
7 the possibility of all of them. And if we
8 are looking at the possibility of denying
9 something, we need to look at them
10 individually. Or at least the ones that we
11 want to deny individually, and then we lump
12 the rest together for an approval.
13 If we don't get a Motion it's going to
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Last I read by
17 Robert's Rule, I am not allowed to make a
18 Motion, so it's got to be one of you guys.
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Why is
21 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I don't know.
22 Why is that?
23 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I thought
24 the Chair could.
1 MS. KUDLA: I don't know. I could
2 suggest a Motion.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That would be
4 wonderful. If you verbalize it, then maybe
5 somebody will take ownership.
6 MS. KUDLA: I could suggest a Motion
7 that the Board grant the variance in this
8 case sought by Triangle Main Street because
9 the Petitioner has established practical
10 difficulty in complying with the strict
11 letter of the restrictions of the Ordinance.
12 It would unreasonably prevent the use of the
13 property as it has been planned to great
14 detail and approved by the Planning
15 Commission already in its present condition
16 to go back and change these 11 relatively
17 minor items simply based on the fact of the
18 difficulty created by the public versus
19 private road issue. Essentially nothing is
20 changing from approved site plan if the
21 variance is granted.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That is so moved
23 by Member Wrobel.
24 MEMBER WROBEL: So moved.
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I will
2 second it.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: And seconded by
4 Member Fischer. Any further discussion?
5 Seeing none, please call the
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That's what
8 I was trying to think of.
9 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's exactly
10 what I had written down, but I didn't think
11 I was allowed to make a Motion.
12 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
13 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
14 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
15 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Aye.
16 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
17 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
18 MS. WORKING: Chairman Shroyer?
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
20 MS. WORKING: Motion to approve all 11
21 variances passes 4-0.
22 MS. TRAXER: Thank you very much.
23 MR. NONA: Thank you.
24 MEMBER WROBEL: That's why the City
1 attorney gets the big bucks.
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's exactly
4 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Mr. Chair,
5 I might also comment on that last case as
6 well one last thing.
7 Can the Zoning Board get a copy of the
8 letter that -- I'm sorry, Violet was her
10 MS. WORKING: Yes.
11 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Could we
12 get a copy of her letter maybe in our next
13 packet just as a reference point? We also
14 want to make sure a get copy gets to whoever
15 in the Building Department you may see fit,
16 the Planning Commission as well.
18 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: She is the
19 greatest, she will take care of it.
21 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: That would
22 be Mr. Hines or whomever if he could get
23 that to the Planning Commission, that would
24 make me greatly happy.
1 MS. WORKING: Absolutely.
3 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay, moving
4 backwards, I believe our Applicant has
5 arrived, so I assume your Mr. Sinkevics?
6 MR. SINKEVICS: Yes, sir.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please come
8 forward, state your name and address and be
9 sworn in by our Vice Chair.
10 MR. SINKEVICS: Richard Sinkevics,
11 1430 West Lake Drive, Novi, Michigan 48377.
12 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Sir, do you
13 swear to tell the truth regarding Case
14 number: 07-055?
15 MR. SINKEVICS: Yes, sir.
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Please state
17 your case.
18 MR. SINKEVICS: My case is, I have a
19 residential home at the address 1430 --
20 MS. KUDLA: To the Chairman, do you
21 want to give him the opportunity to table
22 this matter?
23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I'm sorry, very
24 good. You weren't here for our previous
1 discussion. Our Board consist of seven
2 members and we need four to have a quorum,
3 we have four here, so the meeting is
4 official this evening.
5 However, any approval would
6 require an approved vote by all four
7 members. We have been giving the Applicants
8 the opportunity to have their case tabled
9 until the next month or the month after to
10 have an opportunity to present their case in
11 front of a full Board.
12 Would you care to have it tabled for
13 the others, or do you want to move forward
14 and hope that you get all four votes?
15 MR. SINKEVICS: No. I think I will go
16 ahead and move forward and hope that I get
17 all four if possible.
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
19 Please state your case.
20 MR. SINKEVICS: I had a residence at
21 1430 West Lake Drive. Back in January we
22 broke into the house, into the structure of
23 the house. We had some rotted beams and as
24 it ended up, the whole crawl space is
1 completely deteriorated and rotted and it's
2 been cleaned by the insurance company and it
3 collapsed due to unseen rot as we were
4 living in the home. And since then we have
5 been dealing with the insurance company and
6 all kinds of different procedures to get to
7 this point to rebuild this house.
8 The insurance company put us up in a
9 rental property in Novi as well. I have a
10 wife and two children and we are just trying
11 to get this thing knocked down and rebuilt.
12 It's kind of an emergency situation. I
13 myself am a landscape contractor, so I am
14 taking this project on as a homeowner and I
15 do know some contractors in the area.
16 I am trying to get a variance to have
17 the new build sit basically where the
18 existing house is collapsing now sits. The
19 two problems are, one off of West Lake
20 Drive. There is a setback that's 30 feet
21 off of West Lake Drive and also off of
22 Faywood is 30 feet. Where the house sits
23 now is approximately 12 feet off the corner
24 of Faywood and West Lake Drive.
1 What I am trying to do is get a
2 variance from 13 some odd feet from West
3 Lake Drive and 13 some odd 5 off of Faywood.
4 I'm trying to keep the general aesthetics of
5 the property in the yard or the back,
6 otherwise my house would be back in the
7 corner 30 feet off of the street which would
8 expose my whole yard to several houses
9 around the whole neighborhood. That is why
10 we have (unintelligible). So, I am trying
11 to keep that back area as my yard area.
12 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That's it?
13 MR. SINKEVICS: Basically, yeah,
14 that's the nature of the whole thing.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay. With this
16 being a public hearing we will open it up to
17 members of the audience.
18 And seeing no one coming forward,
19 we will indicate that 56 notices were
20 mailed. We received three approvals and
21 zero objections.
22 The approvals was from Michelle and
23 James Wood at 1418 West Lake Drive. No
24 comments, but they indicated an approval.
1 A Bryan and Becky Kozahin at 1523 West
2 Lake Drive. The comment was: I strongly
3 approve Mr. Sinkevics' variances. His new
4 house will add to the improvement in the
6 And the third approval with no
7 comments was from a Raymond C. Ott at 1425
8 West Lake Drive.
9 I guess I didn't close the public
10 hearing. So, the public hearing is closed.
11 Make sure we do that.
12 Is there any comment from the City or
14 MS. KUDLA: No comment from Counsel.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Okay.
16 MR. FOX: Just a little bit of
17 clarification. This is very similar to a
18 lot of the other cases that we see along the
19 lake here for a building lot that's very
20 small with two streets on this case where we
21 have a very small building envelope
22 available for this lot. The owner, he
23 didn't state this, but there is an existing
24 detached garage on the property that he
1 intended to keep and reuse. So, he won't
2 have any driveways right up adjacent to the
3 street where you only have 12-foot of
4 driveway. He will be reusing a building on
5 site. That's all I have.
6 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you. At
7 this time I will open it up to Board
9 Member Wrobel?
10 MEMBER WROBEL: Looking at the one
11 drawing here. Right down the line over the
12 house, is that the existing house location?
13 MR. SINKEVICS: Can I take a look at
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: In fact, if you
16 would, please put it on the overhead so our
17 one audience member can view it so she knows
18 what we are talking about as well. Thank
20 MR. SINKEVICS: Yes, the red dotted,
21 dashed line is the existing structure.
22 MEMBER WROBEL: Thank you. So, in
23 essence the new footprint you propose you
24 would like if the variances would be
1 granted, you would be sitting further back
2 from the road at this point than the
3 existing house was?
4 MR. SINKEVICS: Yes.
5 MEMBER WROBEL: That's all I have, Mr.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other
8 comments? Member Krieger?
9 MEMBER KRIEGER: I would agree with
10 this plan. Thank you.
11 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Comments, Mr.
13 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: None.
14 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: I have none
16 either, other than no objections. In
17 particular since it is not any closer to the
18 road than the existing home.
19 At this point I will entertain a
21 Member Fischer?
22 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: It is two
23 front yards, is that correct, given the two
1 MR. SINKEVICS: Yes.
2 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I would
3 move that in Case number: 07-055 filed by
4 Richard Sinkevics of 1430 West Lake Drive,
5 that we approve the Petitioner's request as
6 submitted given the practical difficulty
7 shown and the unique configuration of the
8 lot, the lot size and the fact that the home
9 actually has two front yards making the
10 envelope possible for a structure even
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
13 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: We have a Motion
14 by Member Fischer and a second by Member
15 Krieger. Any further discussion?
16 Seeing none, please call the
18 MS. WORKING: Vice-Chair Fischer?
19 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER? Aye.
20 MS. WORKING: Member Krieger?
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
22 MS. WORKING: Chairperson Shroyer?
23 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
24 MS. WORKING: Member Wrobel?
1 MEMBER WROBEL: Yes.
2 MS. WORKING: Motion passes 4-0.
3 MR. SINKEVICS: Thank you very much.
4 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: It's been
6 MR. SINKEVICS: Thank you.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
8 MS. WORKING: Glad you could make it.
9 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: I am glad
10 it didn't collapse on you.
11 MR. SINKEVICS: I looked at the
12 website today and it was another meeting
13 tomorrow at the same time at --
14 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Not a
16 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: This is the
17 important one.
19 MR. SINKEVICS: Thank you.
20 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: That ends the
21 public hearings for this evening.
22 We move on to other matters, and one
23 item on other matters is Sub Committee
24 Report. Member Fischer?
1 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thank you,
2 Mr. Chair.
3 First of all, I would like to thank
4 Robin for all of her assistance as usual.
5 She was able to send myself and the other
6 two members much information regarding
7 Bylaws and everything. We are planning to
8 meet Monday, August 13th, to go over that.
9 We will develop an agenda by the end of this
10 week. Myself and the two committee members
11 will have read all the information and be
12 ready to discuss my plan for a response to
13 you by next meeting.
14 We can meet on August 13th. We can
15 meet maybe two weeks thereafter which would
16 be right before our next September 11th,
17 Zoning Board meeting and make any
18 recommendations to the Board.
19 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Thank you.
20 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Thanks
21 again to Robin, how great she is.
22 MS. WORKING: I would like to go on
23 record and say I have not paid Mr. Fischer
24 to make those comments. I do appreciate
2 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other
4 MEMBER WROBEL: I just have a
5 question. What exactly is the Sub Committee
6 going to be looking at? I came in kind of
7 late in the picture.
8 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: In
9 discussions with Mr. Shroyer, there were a
10 couple things that came up regarding the
11 recent law changes. In fact, having you on
12 the Board and the role and responsibility of
13 the alternate as well given those law
14 changes and a couple of other items as well.
15 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Looking at what
16 changes may need to be made to our Bylaws is
17 the primary reason and how it affects our
18 alternate committee member, how it affects
19 the additional member being yourself that
20 has dual membership of the Planning
22 One of the other things was looking at
23 was the number of meetings that people
24 attend and the requirements centered around
1 that. So, we are looking at revising the
3 MEMBER WROBEL: So, it's basically
5 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Yes.
6 MEMBER WROBEL: Okay, thank you.
7 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: And, in
8 fact, you might as well go ahead and send it
9 to the rest of the Board Members the bylaws
10 for their review and recommendations by the
11 second meeting. So, I will do that as well
12 and make sure that everybody has it. And
13 I'll even do that, I won't bother you with
15 MEMBER WROBEL: Mr. Wrobel has just
16 received a copy in his welcome aboard
18 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Did Member
19 Wrobel get a copy of the training packet as
21 MS. WORKING: Yes, he did.
22 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Very good.
23 MEMBER WROBEL: ZBA Meetings for
24 Dummies by Tom Schultz.
1 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: Any other
2 comments by anybody?
3 VICE-CHAIRPERSON FISCHER: Motion to
5 MEMBER WROBEL: Second.
6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Third.
7 CHAIRPERSON SHROYER: So moved.
8 Meeting adjourned.
9 (The meeting was adjourned at
10 10:01 p.m.)
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby
5 certify that I have recorded
6 stenographically the proceedings had and
7 testimony taken in the above-entitled matter
8 at the time and place hereinbefore set
9 forth, and I do further certify that the
10 foregoing transcript, consisting of (114)
11 typewritten pages, is a true and correct
12 transcript of my said stenographic notes.
19 Mona L. Talton,
20 Certified Shorthand Reporter
22 August 31, 2007