| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, March 6, 2007. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY: 1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, March 6, 2007 3 7:30 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: The time is 7:30 7 and I would like to call to order the 8 March 2007 meeting of the City of Novi 9 Zoning Board of Appeals. 10 Would you please rise and join me 11 in the pledge of Allegiance. 12 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge 13 allegiance to the flag of the United States 14 of America and to the Republic for which it 15 stands, one nation under God indivisible 16 with liberty and justice for all. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 18 Ms. Working, would you please call the roll. 19 ROBIN WORKING: Member Canup? 20 Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Present. 22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 23 MEMBER GATT: Here. 24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
4 1 MEMBER BAUER: Here. 2 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here. 4 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 5 MEMBER SHROYER: Here. 6 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here. 8 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson, 9 we have one absentee, Member Brent Canup. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. But 11 we do have a quorum and the meeting now is 12 in session. 13 I would like to go over the rules 14 of conduct and you can find them on the 15 agenda. 16 Just a friendly reminder that to 17 please turn off all your cell phones and 18 pagers. 19 Individual applicants may take 20 five minutes and groups may take up to ten 21 minutes to address the Board. 22 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a 23 Hearing Board empowered by the Novi City 24 Charter to hear appeals seeking variances
5 1 from the application of the Novi Zoning 2 Ordinance. And it takes a vote of at least 3 four members to approve a variance, a 4 variance request. And a vote of the 5 majority of the members present to deny a 6 variance. 7 Tonight we have are full vote so 8 all decisions made will be final. 9 Are there any changes in the 10 agenda, Ms. Working? 11 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson, 12 for Case number: 07-007 which would be the 13 seventh case on the agenda, Mr. Chawney 14 informed us this afternoon that he would be 15 unable to attend and he requested to be 16 tabled to the April hearing. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, so noted. 18 Anything else? If there is nothing 19 else -- 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: I have maybe two 23 requests. Robin, we were going to talk 24 about training sessions. Are we going to
6 1 wait until Tom give us some dates? 2 ROBIN WORKING: Yeah, he wasn't 3 able to give me any dates for that to be 4 considered. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: And also, Mr. 6 Chair, if we could put before or whatever 7 you would like actually, I would like a 8 quick comment on Glendas at the end. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, let's put 10 it at the end. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: At the very end? 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: All right. 14 Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I will move to 15 approve as amended. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. The 18 Motion has and made and seconded to approve 19 the agenda. All those in favor please 20 signify by saying aye. 21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed 23 same sign. We have now an agenda. 24 And moving on. At this point the
7 1 meeting is open for any public comments, 2 remarks section. 3 Is there anybody in the audience 4 who would like to address the Board 5 regarding any issue other than that is being 6 presented that is on the agenda tonight? 7 Seeing none, we will close that. 8 And next one we will go into the 9 -- next thing on the agenda is approval of 10 the minutes for December 2006. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Move that it be 12 accepted. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, the Motion 14 has been made to accept the Minutes as 15 presented. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Seconded. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Seeing no 18 objection or corrections coming in, I will 19 entertain a Motion. We have already a 20 Motion so all in favor of accepting the 21 Minutes please signify by saying aye. 22 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 24
8 1 This bring us to the first case. 2 And that is Case number: 07-001 filed 3 Etkins Equities for Hilton Garden Inn 4 located at 27355 Cabaret Drive. 5 Is the applicant here? Please 6 come forward to here. State your name and 7 address and be sworn in by our Secretary 8 unless you are an attorney. 9 MR. BEDNESS: My name is Robert 10 Bedness (ph) with Etkin Equities, 29100 11 Northwestern Highway, Southfield. I am the 12 appellant in this case. 13 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise 14 your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to 15 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-001? 16 MR. BEDNESS: I do. 17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please proceed. 19 MR. BEDNESS: Just in brief 20 summary of our appeal in this case. The 21 purpose of the appeal is we intend to 22 construct a 147 room Hilton Garden Suites 23 hotel on the site and because of mitigating 24 situation and circumstances that occurred
9 1 over the development of this property over 2 the last five years, when the property was 3 -- can I use this? I have a board, but if 4 this is better. That's not very good 5 either. 6 At the lower part of the page is 7 Cabaret Drive, the property under 8 consideration is this property to the south. 9 And there is an existing four story 10 residence and hotel on the property to the 11 north. 12 I also have a larger board with 13 me if that would help. But basically what 14 happened is when this property was acquired 15 by us five or six years ago there were, 16 there was a master plan developed for the 17 site that included three sites, but actually 18 only two parcels of land. So there was this 19 Residence Inn Hotel and an office building 20 to the north which is a Telcom Credit Union. 21 And then ultimately there was going to be an 22 office a Flex Tech office building on this 23 third site that we have on consideration 24 tonight.
10 1 But when that plan was filed five 2 or six years ago for site plan approval, the 3 ownership of both what is now the Residence 4 Inn and what is now this vacant site under 5 consideration was under one ownership. So 6 there never was a formal lot split or two 7 parcels created at the time. 8 The site plan was approved that 9 way. In fact, the City is still holding 10 bonds until the second building project is 11 completed on the site. 12 But what happened during the 13 course of development is the Residence Inn 14 Hotel was completed about three, three and a 15 half years ago. And near the closing the 16 lender for that property required that the 17 property be broken out separately from the 18 rest of the parcel. 19 So at that time this property 20 line was created which basically splits the 21 driveway between the two parking areas. And 22 actually created this, I guess, 23 non-compliant side yard setback for not only 24 the Residence Inn but also this property.
11 1 So the history is kind of created 2 the circumstance that needs to be corrected. 3 Now about a year and a half ago, maybe it 4 was longer than that, in December and 5 January of, December of '04 and January of 6 '05, there was a development that didn't 7 materialize on our Hilton Garden Inn site 8 for Sally Mae and the same article was 9 brought before the Zoning Board of Appeals 10 at that time to try and rectify that 11 situation. 12 At that time the Board approved 13 that appeal. I believe it still stands 14 properly in place for the Residence Inn 15 property, but because no action was taken to 16 develop the third site that we are 17 considering today, the variance expired for 18 that site. 19 As a consequence when we went 20 before the Planning Commission a few months 21 ago for approval of the site plan they 22 brought it to our attention that we needed 23 to bring this matter back before you for 24 consideration for the variance.
12 1 I think the important thing to 2 notice here is that overall the respective 3 layout of the parking areas, the entrance 4 driveways and relationships of the buildings 5 has not changed at all from the original 6 site plan that was approved about five years 7 ago even though they were different 8 buildings or the Hilton was a different 9 building, the basic site configuration has 10 not changed from that site plant approval at 11 that time. 12 So what we are asking for at this 13 time does not materially change what was 14 previously approved in the essential 15 character and nature of the site, this 16 landscaping and everything else remains 17 unchanged from that plan. 18 That pretty much summarizes the 19 case. I would be very happy to answer any 20 questions. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. 22 Thank you. Does anybody in the audience 23 like to make any comments about this case? 24 Seeing none, I will inform the Board that
13 1 there were six notices were mailed, one 2 approval, zero objections. 3 Just one approval, Mr. Secretary? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Mr. Hankin. An 5 objection. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Oh, he has put 7 it in the wrong way. 8 MEMBER BAUER: An approval. 9 That's it. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Building 11 Department, any comment? 12 MR. FOX: I guess he covered it 13 pretty well, I don't think there is really 14 anything else outstanding. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good, no 16 comments from the Building Department. 17 I will open it to the Board for 18 discussion. Yes, Mr. Shroyer, I know you 19 raised your hand. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 21 Chair. I had a question for our attorney. 22 The applicant's letter, part of the 23 applicant's letter states that this goes 24 back to the previously approved variance.
14 1 It's on page two down toward the bottom of 2 the attachments. It says: With respect to 3 the 27477 Cabaret Drive clarification is 4 required as to whether the previously 5 approved variance is still valid. If it is 6 not, then a determination should be made to 7 make it permanently valid. 8 Can you give us some direction as 9 to, first of all, is it still valid? And if 10 it is no action is needed I assume? If it's 11 not, do we as a Board need to make it 12 permanent? 13 MS. OZGA: Right now the 14 applicant is only requesting a 20-foot north 15 side yard parking lot setback with regard to 16 the Hilton Garden Inn. That's the only 17 thing that was noticed before the ZBA, so 18 that's the only one that's before the ZBA 19 right now. 20 The previous variance I haven't 21 fully looked into it, but a variance 22 normally runs with the land and that one had 23 to do with the Residence Inn Hotel so that 24 one is not relevant today before the Board.
15 1 It's only the one that was noticed with 2 regard to the Hilton Garden Inn property. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 5 That's the only question I had, Mr. Chair. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. 7 Anybody else? There doesn't seem to be any 8 interest here in the discussion part of 9 this. 10 As far as I am concerned I don't 11 think things have changed very much from the 12 previous time and I have personally no 13 objection to granting your request myself. 14 But I would -- yes, Mr. Fischer? 15 MEMBER FISCHER: I would agree as 16 well. I would have pretty much said the 17 same thing you did, looking through the 18 previous minutes not much has changed, so if 19 there are no further questions for the 20 Applicant, I would be willing to make an 21 affirmative Motion, Mr. Chair. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please go ahead. 23 MEMBER FISCHER: I would move 24 that in Case number: 07-001 filed by Etkins
16 1 Equities for Hilton Garden Inn located at 2 27355 Cabaret Drive we grant petitioner's 3 request given that he has shown the elements 4 of practical difficulty. And that this lot 5 will be developed in accordance with the 6 site plan. 7 The physical reality of the 8 sitting placement and orientation will 9 remain unchanged from said site plan. That 10 the land unit division was required by the 11 lender in order to finance the property and 12 that favorable consideration will not alter 13 the essential character of the land or the 14 environment. 15 I would also move that the 16 Applicant be granted 210 days to get their 17 permit and the paperwork. 18 MEMBER BAUER: I second. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion has made 20 and seconded. 21 Any further discussion? 22 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson, 23 who seconded the Motion, please? 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Bauer.
17 1 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Bauer, thank 2 you. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Seeing none, Ms. 4 Working will you please call the roll. 5 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Fischer? 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 7 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 9 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 11 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 14 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 15 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 16 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 17 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes 18 6-0. 19 MR. BEDNESS: Thank you very 20 much. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good luck. 22 MR. BEDNESS: Thank you. 23 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Moving on to the
18 1 next case. Case number: 07-002 filed by 2 Autumn Park L.L.C. for Autumn Park III 3 located on the Southeast corner of White 4 Planes Drive and Beck Road. 5 Applicant is requesting an extension for the 6 Subdivision business sign to remain on the 7 property. 8 Please identify yourself. State 9 your name and address and be sworn by our 10 Secretary. 11 MR. COLLINS: Good evening, 12 Members of the Board. My name is Chet 13 Collins, I represent Autumn Park, L.L.C. My 14 address is 32600 Telegraph Road. That's in 15 Bingham Farms, Michigan. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your hand 17 please. Do you swear or affirm to tell the 18 truth regarding case number: 07-002? 19 MR. COLLINS: Yes, I do. 20 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. 21 MR. COLLINS: Members of the 22 Board, I'm here again this evening to 23 request an extension of our current 24 temporary subdivision sign that's currently
19 1 located on Beck Road outside the Autumn Park 2 Subdivision, basically that subdivision. We 3 are currently maintaining a sales model in 4 the community and have ten sites that remain 5 for sale in that community. 6 Most of our current traffic is 7 driven from potential sales from the drive 8 by traffic which obviously that's what our 9 sign is for. We are making every effort to 10 wrap up sales in this community in a timely 11 basis but with the current economy obviously 12 it's taking a little bit longer than we 13 expected. 14 We completed two sales since our 15 last extension. I was here about six months 16 ago and you granted us a six-month extension 17 at that time. 18 Basically without the sign our 19 ability to sell the remaining home sites 20 would just take a little bit longer and we 21 just request your consideration for an 22 additional six months at this time. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is 24 there anybody in the audience who would like
20 1 to address the Board regarding this case? 2 Seeing none, Building Department? 3 MR. FOX: I have no comment, sir. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. Thank 5 you. We had 25 notices were mailed. Zero 6 approval, zero objections. 7 Open for the Board for discussion. Mr. 8 Fischer? 9 MEMBER FISCHER: What percent 10 built out are you or sold? 11 MR. COLLINS: There are 41 home 12 sites in Phase Three of the community. We 13 have ten sites left, so we're about 75 14 percent at this time. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: And in the last 16 six months you have sold two homes? 17 MR. COLLINS: Correct, closed on 18 two homes, yes. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: How long has 20 this sign been on this property? 21 MR. COLLINS: I don't exactly 22 know, but I would imagine probably three 23 years. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Amolsch?
21 1 MR. AMOLSCH: The permit was 2 issued in May of 2000, the original permit. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Now, when 4 it was originally put up you said this was 5 for Phase Three. 6 MR. COLLINS: We originally had 7 two signs. One on Beck Road and one on 9 8 Mile for the first two phases of the 9 community. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: So this did 11 serve back in 2000 as part of Phase One and 12 Phase Two? 13 MR. COLLINS: This was erected as 14 the other two -- we were asked to take the 15 other two down and this one was erected in 16 its place. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Given the 18 economic issues we are having in Michigan. 19 Me being a Ford employee and Comerica 20 leaving today and our Governor on TV tonight 21 trying to assure us things are okay, I don't 22 see an issue with the sign, especially given 23 that the nearby residents don't seem to have 24 too much concern with it, I would be willing
22 1 to support another six months. 2 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 4 Fischer. 5 Anybody else? See none, the 6 Chair will entertain a Motion from any one 7 of the Members. 8 Mr. Fischer, you are I think 9 drafted. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Am I being 11 chosen by the Chair? Great. 12 I would move that in Case number: 13 07-002 filed by Autumn Park L.L.C. for 14 Autumn Park III located on the southeast 15 corner of White Planes Drive and Beck Road 16 that we grant Petitioner's request for a 17 six-month extension on the sign listed as a 18 variance request. 19 I would do this because the 20 Petitioner has established practical 21 difficulty in that failure to grant relief 22 will unreasonably and substantially result 23 in more than a mere inconvenience. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. The
23 1 Motion has been made. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Bauer has 4 seconded. 5 Any further discussion? 6 Seeing none, Ms. Working will you 7 please call the roll. 8 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer? 9 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 10 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Aye. 12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 13 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 14 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 16 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer? 17 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 20 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes 21 6-0. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Good 23 luck. 24 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Members
24 1 of the Board, I appreciate your time. Thank 2 you. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 4 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, 6 moving along to the next case. Is the Case 7 number: 07-003 filed by Rick Scavo of 14 8 Mile Associates, L.L.C., located at 39525 9 West 12 Mile Road. 10 And the Applicant is requesting 11 to allow date, time, temperature and a 12 message to alternately display on an 13 existing sign. 14 Is Mr. Scavo here? 15 MR. SCAVO: Yes. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please kindly 17 come and -- 18 MR. SCAVO: Sir, I have some 19 drawings, if I could approach the Board I 20 would like to present them to you. I 21 apologize for this not being timely, but it 22 would be easier for you to see the original 23 approval that was done to the sign -- 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's fine.
25 1 Let's first get you sworn in and then we 2 will to get on with that. Thank you. 3 Will you please identify yourself, your 4 name, address and phone number. 5 MR. SCAVO: Yeah, I'm Richard 6 Scavo, 39525 West 14 Mile, Suite 202, Novi, 7 Michigan. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you raise 9 your right hand and be sworn in by our 10 Secretary. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or 12 affirm to tell the truth regarding Case: 13 07-003? 14 THE WITNESS: I do. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Now 16 you can give those things whatever you want 17 to pass out. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: I can take them 19 and pass them out if you would like. 20 MR. SCAVO: Thank you very much. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: No problem. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please go ahead, 23 make your presentation. 24 MR. SCAVO: Okay. Originally
26 1 about three and a half years ago we had 2 approval for the sign with a message center. 3 And the way the sign was designed there are 4 sensors for temperature, atomic clock and a 5 built in calendar so that the sign can 6 display the day, date, the time, the 7 temperature outside and a message. 8 And if you notice the letters on 9 the message center are quite large. It's 10 just one line of characters about 22 11 characters long. So it's difficult to 12 create any kind of a sentence. 13 But the understanding that I had 14 from the gentleman who designed and sold the 15 sign to us was that we had an approval for a 16 message to alternate with the day and date 17 and time as long as the message wasn't 18 scrolling. That was how the sign was 19 designed and the message center would have 20 the temperature, day, date and time and then 21 some kind of message. 22 And for the last three and a half 23 years it's been operating and we haven't had 24 any problems, but I got a letter from Mr.
27 1 Amolsch about a month ago stating that he 2 thought that the sign was out of compliance 3 with the original approval and he asked me 4 to come before the Variance Board to see if 5 we could be allowed to continue as the sign 6 has for the last three and a half years. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is 8 there anybody in the audience who would like 9 to address the Board regarding this case? 10 Seeing none, Mr. Amolsch? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: I have no comment, 12 sir. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments, 14 very good. Let's see. Nineteen notices 15 were mailed. Zero approval. One objection. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Hillers: No, we 17 see no need for sign. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. There you 19 are. Open it up for the Board for 20 discussion. 21 Yes, Mr. Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: On the description 23 right here on the August 18th applied for 24 this states: Digital message displayed must
28 1 have static message. Does not constantly 2 move or scroll. It can't be any plainer 3 than that. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. 5 Shroyer? 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 7 Chair. 8 Mr. Scavo, you indicated that 9 back when you initially applied for this you 10 were told that this was okay? 11 MR. SCAVO: Yes, sir. 12 MEMBER SHROYER: Were you told by 13 the person who installed the sign or by 14 somebody from the City or? 15 MR. SCAVO: Well, I talked with 16 Mr. Amolsch about it and he said that to 17 have a sign that changed showing date and 18 time would be okay, but the message couldn't 19 scroll. And I have in the computer software 20 that controls the sign, the ability to do 21 all kinds of interesting graphics with 22 moving words and your exploding signs and 23 things like that to be able to display a 24 message alternate with the time and date as
29 1 long as the sign was just changing in what 2 we have it now is at five second intervals. 3 The window with the setback that we have on 4 the sign is about 160 linear feet along 14 5 Mile Road. It runs parallel to the road. 6 And the traffic in the area, the speed limit 7 is 45 but the traffic typically because it's 8 near an intersection travels at around 9 40 miles an hour. At 40 miles an hour 10 you're traveling at approximately 60 feet 11 per second. And given that you the window 12 up to a perpendicular that's about a second 13 and a half to view the sign as you drive by. 14 The only people that would have a longer 15 opportunity to view would be the people in 16 Hiller's parking lot waiting for an 17 opportunity to turn out. They could 18 actually see two or three sign changes. 19 I find it interesting if -- you don't mind 20 if I elaborate? 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, I do. If 22 you don't mind. 23 MR. SCAVO: Oh, sure. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: It's going to be
30 1 a long agenda this evening. 2 MR. SCAVO: No problem. 3 MEMBER SHROYER: And there is 4 going to be questions from all of us, I 5 believe. 6 So in your interpretation a 7 static message is one that doesn't scroll? 8 MR. SCAVO: Correct. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: It's just 10 stationary even though it changes 11 periodically it doesn't scroll. How much 12 time is in between each activity? 13 MR. SCAVO: Four seconds. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Four seconds. 15 MR. SCAVO: But I can adjust it 16 to six or eight. We were just trying to 17 make it so that the average person driving 18 by probably wouldn't notice a sign change. 19 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand. 20 One of the things that I had written here 21 was the same as Mr. Bauer had noted. It 22 explicitly states the sign must be static 23 and not move in any manner. But I 24 understand where you are coming from with
31 1 that. You indicated that you received a 2 letter just last month or so. We show a 3 record of at least three notices going back 4 a year that you have been sent. And all of 5 it has to do with the changeable copy 6 portion of the sign. 7 MR. SCAVO: Well, the original 8 letter that I got when I contacted Alan, and 9 Robin was kind enough to try to review to 10 see if there was any addendums attached to 11 the approval of the sign because even Alan 12 had kind of remembered that he knew that it 13 was going to have a time, date stamp, 14 temperature and some kind of message. But 15 how can you have that with 23 letters and 16 not have it change? The time has to change. 17 The temperature changes dramatically in this 18 state. The day would have to change at 19 least daily. So a totally static message 20 you wouldn't even really have day-to-day 21 change of the day. 22 So, I guess I was under the 23 impression and it may have been the salesman 24 who was taking some liberties with the
32 1 definition of that because it was a $14,000 2 sign. 3 MR. SHROYER: And it's a very 4 attractive sign. 5 What are the options that you 6 would look at? If we do not approve this 7 tonight would you make the sign state one 8 thing at the bottom? 9 MR. SCAVO: I will do whatever 10 you tell me to do. 11 MEMBER SHROYER: Can you put down 12 vote Republican for president? 13 MR. SCAVO: Absolutely. Actually 14 I got Bill Balestrina elected to Walled Lake 15 School Board. 16 MEMBER SHROYER: I think those 17 are the main questions that I have right 18 now, Mr. Chair. Thank you. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 20 Yes, Ms. Ozga? 21 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just 22 wanted to note one sort of discrepancy. In 23 the materials that were just provided to you 24 under the permit under the description it
33 1 says that digital message display must have 2 a static message that does not constantly 3 move or scroll. In the materials that were 4 provided in your agenda packet it states 5 that the digital message display must have a 6 static message that does not move in any 7 manner. So I'm not sure if what was in your 8 agenda packet was something that was 9 initially drafted and that something 10 different got sent out. They essentially say 11 the same thing because they both say that it 12 cannot -- 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Does not change. 14 MS. OZGA: Does not constantly 15 move. So I just wanted to point out that. 16 MEMBER SHROYER: Thanks very 17 much, I appreciate that. Thank you. 18 Yes, Mr. Fischer? 19 MEMBER FISCHER: I will take a 20 stab. Speaking of discrepancies, on the 21 application it says number six it says: 22 Appeal based on notice of violation or 23 citation issued? And the answer is, No. 24 Does this not constitute as a violation or?
34 1 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, it does. 2 Notice of violation is a violation. There 3 was no legal action taken. But there was a 4 notice. Actually our informant letter is 5 actually notice in itself, what we call a PR 6 letter. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. My second 8 little note here is exactly what my two 9 previous speakers stated. And that's the 10 letter here or permit, whatever this is that 11 states right in the description that it must 12 constantly move or scroll. When I drove by 13 today it was changing quite quickly as you 14 stated every five seconds. 15 I cannot be in support of 16 anything moving that often in that area. I 17 would be in support, I don't see a problem, 18 I feel that the intent of the Ordinance 19 would allow for the date and the time and 20 the temperature. However, the constant 21 messages that are being sent out every five 22 seconds I feel are a distraction and I feel 23 for the safety of the residents and visitors 24 to our city that are driving by. So I don't
35 1 think that the intent is met when it's 2 changing every five seconds. 3 So I cannot be in support of 4 something of that manner. But I would be 5 willing to support allowing and interpreting 6 this to state message, time, date and 7 temperature. 8 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 10 Anybody else? 11 I see this as a two-fold issue 12 here. Number one issue is whether there 13 should be any moving sign at all. 14 Unfortunately, but when you change the date 15 and the time and the temperature it does 16 become a changing sign. It doesn't remain 17 steady any more. So from what I hearing we 18 don't have a major problem with changing the 19 date and the time and the temperature. 20 Then it brings us to the question 21 then we have a problem with the changing of 22 the message they are putting in, the name of 23 the doctors and their specialty and that 24 seems to be the primary issue here.
36 1 So if you agree to change the 2 date and the time and the temperature, which 3 seems to be a reasonable thing to do, we are 4 including an issue of a sign which is a 5 destination sign and identifying the 6 business is one thing. And advertising at 7 the same time with the changing scroll is 8 another issue. 9 So my personal feeling will be in 10 favor of continuing with the changing of the 11 date and the temperature and the things, but 12 advertising portion does create a different 13 issue. It needs to be addressed. 14 Yes, Mr. Shroyer? 15 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 16 Chair. I think that's a point well taken. 17 And you had indicated you would do whatever 18 the Board pleases. 19 The one picture that you provided 20 us which showed the temperature and the 21 date, it doesn't show the day, it shows the 22 date, that would 20. And the temperature in 23 this case was 38 degrees. Would you be 24 amenable to limiting the sign to something
37 1 like that if we were to approve that by 2 Motion this evening? 3 MR. SCAVO: Yeah, I mean, I will 4 do whatever. It's just a $14,000 expenditure 5 for something that, I mean, I wish I would 6 have known that that was exactly what was 7 meant before we paid for it. 8 I don't mean to vary, but we have 9 had a huge problem with Hillers being they 10 pack fliers in all of their shopping carts 11 for their clients and they blow across the 12 street into our parking lot. And weekly 13 over the summer I was taking out 33-gallon 14 trash bag full of their plastic bags and 15 fliers over to their manager and handing it 16 to them every single week, so now -- 17 MEMBER SHROYER: That's not 18 applicable to this evening's case. 19 MR. SCAVO: No, no. I just 20 noticed that they were the one objection. 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Understood. 22 This would change, obviously the temperature 23 is going to change any time the temperature 24 change and the date obviously would change
38 1 on a daily basis. 2 MR. SCAVO: And then the time of 3 day you wouldn't want on there? 4 MEMBER SHROYER: If you are going 5 to make it, try to make it a static sign 6 that's not constantly changing, to me this 7 would be the most amenable solution. 8 MR. SCAVO: Okay. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: I don't know 10 about the time or the date, maybe the time 11 and the temperature, or maybe we could give 12 you the option of two of those three to be 13 displayed at all times. But you need to 14 make a decision and not be alternating it 15 everyday or whatever because I think the 16 intent is if you were told time, 17 temperature, et cetera initially, and I 18 can't dispute that because I wasn't there, I 19 don't know what was said and what wasn't 20 said. 21 MR. SCAVO: What I was told was 22 we would have an opportunity to have a 23 message that wasn't scrolling alternating 24 with time and date.
39 1 MEMBER SHROYER: And I think the 2 written information that was distributed is 3 very clear that there is no such message to 4 be moving. It says static in manner. So if 5 you wanted to have Dr. Scavo as one of the 6 pictures say and that's the only thing up 7 there 24/7 that's fine. But it may be 8 better advertisement, I guess, if you are 9 showing everybody the temperature and the 10 time or something like that. It's likely to 11 draw attention to the sign more than a 12 person's name or more than an advertisement 13 saying Orthodontist or something like that. 14 MR. SCAVO: I agree. 15 MEMBER SHROYER: So I believe 16 that I would be open to bits of information 17 on this which appears appropriate, either 18 time and temperature or date and temperature 19 or date and time. Is that right? So that's 20 what I would be open to if somebody would be 21 interested in a Motion. 22 Member Gatt has some information 23 here. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Gatt?
40 1 MEMBER GATT: Well, I mean just 2 detailing on what everyone else has 3 previously stated. I think that a lot of 4 the things that have been scrolling across 5 as I sat there and watched for ten minutes. 6 The biggest concern about that to begin with 7 is that some of it is sort of redundant. I 8 mean this Dr. Scavo or Scavo, what is that, 9 eight inches above it says Dr. Scavo, DDS. 10 I think a lot of this stuff is pretty much 11 in plain sight to begin with. I really 12 liked this sign to begin with and attracting 13 attention to it with the date and the 14 temperature and the time or whatever, that 15 is plenty enough to attract a person's 16 attention to the sign and say, hey, oh, 17 there is a dentist in there, I didn't know 18 that. I think that is enough to make it 19 worth your while. 20 In fact, this is a very unique 21 sign to begin with and taking away the 22 scrolling and just leaving it as a static 23 sign that will comply with the Zoning 24 Board's variance, then I think that's plenty
41 1 enough to have this sign the way it is now 2 with just the time and date or the time and 3 temperature, whatever you choose. And I 4 think that if you want to change it to one 5 thing and another thing on a weekly basis or 6 something like that at a given time, that 7 is, that's fine with me. That I don't have a 8 problem with. But I think to change it to 9 show which doctors and what they do is sort 10 of silly considering right above the 11 scrolling part it says what they do anyway. 12 So, that's my feeling. And I would support 13 having it be as a static to say a couple 14 things like time and date on the same 15 portion of the sign, but that's all I would 16 be in favor of. Thank you. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 18 Gatt. 19 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Amolsch has 20 something. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, sir? 22 MR. AMOLSCH: Just to clear up a 23 matter here and inform the Board. I don't 24 know if Mr. Scavo intends on continuing the
42 1 scrolling message as part of sign which is 2 definitely not permitted by the new 3 Ordinance. We adopted the new Ordinance in 4 September which allows what we call 5 changeable copy sign. They can be changed 6 four times an hour. But they cannot scroll 7 or move in any manner. And also time and 8 temperature are not considered an animated 9 sign which is what the scrolling sign is 10 considered under the new Ordinance as an 11 animated sign. 12 So, Mr. Scavo's sign can change 13 four times an hour as long as it doesn't 14 scroll under the new code. If that helps 15 the Board at all. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 17 That's interesting. 18 Yes, Mr. Fischer? 19 MEMBER FISCHER: I definitely 20 thank you for that. I think that's exactly 21 kind of where we're going. Time, date and 22 temperature fine. I was even thinking if he 23 wanted to change it once a day, fine. But 24 if the Ordinance allows four times an hour
43 1 then that's what he is allowed. So I would 2 move along with the denial of this variance. 3 I believe that would be a way to handle it. 4 MEMBER BAUER: Good. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: But I am looking 6 confused a little. 7 MS. OZGA: I'm sorry, Mr. 8 Fischer, can you clarify what you just said? 9 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. What I was 10 saying was that I think the Board was going 11 towards agreeing with the time, date and 12 temperature which apparently through the new 13 Ordinance is allowed and maybe allowing for 14 some type of change once a day or something 15 I would have been okay with that. But it 16 sounds like he can do it four times an hour 17 through the Ordinance anyway, correct? 18 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: So, there is no 20 point in entertaining anything more with 21 this. I think the Ordinance speaks for 22 itself. And it was just recently passed and 23 that was the intent of the Ordinance as it 24 stands.
44 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 2 I just have a question for you. Are you 3 aware of the change in the Ordinance we were 4 just talking about? 5 MR. SCAVO: No, sir. But I will 6 make the changes to the sign. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Because as you 8 see everything becomes (unintelligible) if 9 you go by that you can change it four times 10 an hour these three things. 11 MR. SCAVO: Yes. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: We don't need to 13 discuss anything further. 14 MR. SCAVO: Can the sign not 15 change any faster than that? Just do it 16 every 15 minutes? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Amolsch, 18 will you kindly explain to him the new 19 Ordinance so he understands. Explain it to 20 the Applicant what is the new Ordinance. 21 MR. AMOLSCH: The sign can 22 change. It cannot change more than four 23 times an hour otherwise its regarded as an 24 animated sign. Less than four times an hour
45 1 is called changeable copy sign which is now 2 allowed under the new Ordinance. It just 3 cannot go scrolling across. It's got to 4 just change and then another time it should 5 change without scrolling or moving. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: But that's with 7 a message, Mr. Amolsch. If he has the 8 temperature or the time that could change 9 according to the temperature and the time. 10 MR. AMOLSCH: Of course. That's 11 never been prohibited. The issue wasn't 12 with the time and temperature. It was with 13 the scrolling message sign. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Is that 15 clarified for you, sir? 16 MR. SCAVO: Yes, it is. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. 18 MR. AMOLSCH: Sorry, I misspoke 19 myself. That's only for certain uses. They 20 have the changeable copy sign only for 21 schools and that sort of thing. So we still 22 need a variance. I'm sorry. 23 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the 24 Board, if you recall the discussion about
46 1 the educational centers, the worship centers 2 and the section of the sign Ordinance that 3 has to do with changeable copy signs, that 4 might be something that you could consider 5 in approving a variance for a changeable 6 copy sign. The issue here is that this an 7 animated sign which is prohibited by the 8 Ordinance. 9 MR. AMOLSCH: I forgot about the 10 new -- only for certain uses like schools 11 and churches and things like that. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Are 13 you saying something? 14 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, yeah, I 15 just wanted to point that out because under 16 the Ordinance the signs are only permitted 17 for places of worship, schools, movie 18 theatres and similar entertainment venues 19 which would be for purposes like when movies 20 change at the movie theatre, things like 21 that. 22 Here you could have a health and 23 safety issue if you just have a business 24 that's going to have a changing sign all the
47 1 time, an animated sign would be prohibited. 2 But in certain cases you could grant a 3 variance for a changeable copy sign. In 4 this instance it seems like it's a little 5 bit confusing as to what's going to go on 6 the sign and how often it's going to change. 7 I am not sure if the Applicant would want to 8 take a look at that and see what he could do 9 and come back to the Board or whatever the 10 Board wishes. But we just wanted to point 11 out the change in the Ordinance. 12 MR. AMOLSCH: That's why the 13 original sign was approved under the old 14 Ordinance which allowed a changeable copy 15 sign, again, as long as it didn't scroll or 16 move. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a 19 question? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: So could we 22 table this until the next meeting that he 23 could review the Ordinance and come back to 24 us with information what it would be under
48 1 the changeable sign? 2 MEMBER BAUER: I don't think so. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, I don't 4 think that would solve the major problems. 5 Because the problem here is interpretation 6 of the second part, the advertising aspect 7 of it. 8 I think under the circumstances, 9 Mr. Scavo, my suggestion would be to start 10 all over again after having another 11 discussion with Alan here, and in the 12 meantime we get on with this particular 13 request and deny it, okay? So that you have 14 a responsibility to redo everything all 15 over. 16 MR. SCAVO: Okay. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm still a 19 little confused. So he is now not allowed 20 to change every 15 minutes? 21 MR. AMOLSCH: That is correct. I 22 misspoke myself. The original sign was 23 granted under the old Ordinance which 24 allowed a changeable copy sign, but never
49 1 did allow it to move or scroll in any way. 2 In regards to the new Ordinance it does 3 allow copy sign to change four times an 4 hour, but not for this use, only for uses of 5 schools. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, go ahead. 7 MS. OZGA: There are some looks 8 of confusion. Under the old Ordinance the 9 Applicant still was not allowed to have a 10 scrolling sign which is currently what is 11 there. The Board could grant a variance to 12 allow a changeable copy sign in this 13 particular case because it would be varying 14 from what the Ordinance dictates now which 15 would be a movable, a changeable copy sign 16 at a business that is not something that is 17 listed under the Ordinance. So that would 18 be a variance that the Board could grant if 19 the Board wished to do so. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Would we have to 21 renotice? And while we are reviewing that, 22 Mr. Amolsch, changeable copy does that mean 23 every 15 minutes? Is that the term every 15 24 minutes?
50 1 MR. AMOLSCH: It's four times an 2 hour. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Four times an 4 hour, every 15 minutes. 5 MEMBER BAUER: For that 6 particular listing of items. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Gatt? 8 MEMBER GATT: I still feel that 9 regardless of whether or not it's a 10 changeable copy or a moving sign, for this 11 particular business because it doesn't fall 12 under the place of worship or the movie 13 theatre, things like that it's not necessary 14 for us to grant the variance. In this 15 instance I think the sign that is currently 16 in place does a lot of good for having 17 people notice what is in the facility, and 18 it is unnecessary. 19 In the previous cases that we had 20 looked at there was a unique circumstance. 21 I don't think that this is unique enough to 22 warrant a variance for it to become an 23 acceptable changeable copy sign. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
51 1 Thank you, Mr. Gatt. I agree. 2 All right, so, where are we now? 3 Entertain a Motion from somebody? 4 Go ahead, Mr. Gatt. 5 MEMBER GATT: I would like to 6 make a Motion to deny the applicant in Case: 7 07-003 filed by Rick Scavo of 14 Mile 8 Associates L.L.C., located at 39525 West 14 9 Mile Road due to the fact that he has not 10 displayed a reasonable amount of practical 11 difficulty in this particular case. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 14 Motion has been made and seconded. 15 Yes, Mr. Shroyer? 16 MEMBER SHROYER: Now that that's 17 on the table I would like to get a 18 clarification to make sure that if this is 19 denied he would still be permitted to have 20 the time and temperature because it's not 21 part of an animated sign? 22 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct. As 23 long as it remain static. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, they have
52 1 to change. You wouldn't be changing it from 2 (unintelligible) back? 3 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Anybody 6 else? Any other discussions? 7 Seeing none. Did you get the 8 Motion? 9 ROBIN WORKING: I did. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you please 11 call the roll. 12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 13 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 14 ROBIN WORKING: To deny? 15 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 17 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 19 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 20 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
53 1 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 2 ROBIN WORKING: Motion to deny 3 passes 6-0. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 5 MR. SCAVO: Thank you for your 6 time. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: But you know 8 where we are coming from, don't you? What 9 we are suggesting is that you try and work 10 within the new Ordinance so you don't have 11 to go (unintelligible). Thank you. 12 13 Okay, moving on. Next Case 14 number: 07-004 filed by Mike Fellows for 15 Mozart Homes L.L.C., located at 51395 West 16 Ten Mile Road. Applicant is requesting to 17 allow a motor vehicle with advertising to be 18 parked on the private property. 19 Is the applicant here? Please come forward. 20 Identify yourself, state your name and 21 address and be sworn in by our Secretary. 22 And then make your presentation. 23 MR. FELLOWS: Good evening. My 24 name is Mike Fellows from Mozart Homes. We
54 1 are now at 45326 Jacob Drive here in Novi. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise 3 your hand, please. Do you swear or affirm 4 to tell the truth regarding Case: 07-004? 5 MR. FELLOWS: I do. 6 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 7 MR. FELLOWS: Thanks for letting 8 me speak. I will be very quick. We have a 9 small moving van that we use, moved as a 10 kind of courtesy van to move customers if 11 they buy a house or to store some of their 12 furniture. 13 We had been parking it where we 14 had an office building in the Industrial 15 Complex on Joe Drive for a little while, but 16 we are no longer in that facility. Like 17 many other builders we have cutback on quite 18 a lot of things and we are now operating out 19 of one of our model homes, in fact, the only 20 model home that we have. 21 The truck had been parked at the 22 Provincial Glades job which is on 9 Mile 23 Road a little bit east of Napier. It's a 24 fairly remote area and there had been a
55 1 couple of instances of some vandalism to the 2 truck while parked there. There are no 3 lights. At night it's kind of just 4 unwatched, unprotected. 5 And it came to my attention 6 through a former employee who actually went 7 to a service at the church at 10 Mile and 8 Napier that they were looking for someone to 9 build them a new building. So we went over 10 there to talk about that. And actually had 11 the truck that day and another question came 12 up where they said what about this van, can 13 we use this van for some of our members to 14 move and I said sure. 15 And they offered actually as I 16 got to talking with the pastor and told him 17 about the truck being the subject of some 18 vandalism they offered to let us park it 19 there. And naturally there is a sign on the 20 truck advertising the project at 9 and 21 Napier which is remote and hard to see. So 22 we thought, sure, it would be great to have 23 it parked there. 24 And so we are proposing right
56 1 now, working on a proposal I should say to 2 build a new building for them. And in the 3 meantime they have given us permission which 4 I believe you should have a copy of to park 5 the truck there. 6 And that's basically all we're 7 doing. We have permission, as I say, the 8 truck is not intrusive in any way to either 9 traffic or visibility. It is simply a truck 10 parked in a parking lot, albeit with a sign 11 on it. So we are just here requesting to be 12 permitted, to allow, I guess, to get a 13 variance to be able to keep it there. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's it. 15 Thank you. 16 MR. FELLOWS: That's it. Thank 17 you. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is there anybody 19 in the audience who would like to address 20 the Board regarding this case? 21 Seeing none, Building Department? 22 MR. FOX: No comment, sir. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments. We 24 sent out ten notices. One approval, zero
57 1 objections. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Mr. Francis 3 Ferguson approval. I do approve of a 4 variance. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 6 That's about it. So I open it to the Board 7 now. 8 While we are looking at it, this 9 is a very interesting situation. This is an 10 off the premise sign so-to-speak, and kind 11 of an arrangement between the church and its 12 builder so-to-speak. I went there but I 13 didn't see your van. 14 MR. FELLOWS: I apologize for 15 that. It had been there for a while and it 16 was to serve as a mock-up sign but over the 17 weekend we had a customer out in a job we 18 did in Milford who needed the van to move 19 some furniture and I couldn't say no. If it 20 is your wish I can put it back there and we 21 can come back next month -- 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 23 MR. FELLOWS: I just want to do 24 whatever I can. But, yeah, I do apologize.
58 1 I intended for it to be there and it was for 2 two straight months. 3 ROBIN WORKING: The Applicant 4 just likes visiting us at the Building 5 Department. 6 MR. FELLOWS: Well that may be 7 true. I don't know if they like me visiting 8 them. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. 10 Shroyer? 11 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr. 12 Chair. We could all take a road trip. No, 13 it sounds like it's a win-win for several 14 people. And my initial response was if it 15 was okay and no complaints or objections 16 were received it would be okay with me. And 17 I still pretty much feel that way. 18 But I did want to ask what 19 building is being constructed and what's the 20 time frame we are looking at? Or what's the 21 size of the building and what's the time 22 frame? 23 MR. FELLOWS: They are hoping for 24 a building that is in the neighborhood of
59 1 80 feet by a 100 feet. They are very 2 uncertain of their time frame. They kind of 3 have uncertain funding at this point. 4 But I just -- my last meeting with the 5 reverend which was about a week ago he did 6 say there was some good news and some 7 benefactor, somebody had some money for 8 them, so I don't know if that's true. 9 To actually build the building with the site 10 plan approval and all the procedures here in 11 Novi is probably a year's process from the 12 time that they pull the trigger. I would 13 think at a minimum. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: I was trying to 15 figure out can it be parked behind the 16 building while it's under construction? So 17 that if we don't know when the construction 18 is going to begin, you don't know the time 19 frame. 20 MR. FELLOWS: Right, right and a 21 lot of things are uncertain. The building 22 that's there now is right on the corner as 23 you probably all know. The existing parking 24 lot is kind of behind or to the side of the
60 1 church. And it's a very small parking lot. 2 That thing fills up. They only have 3 services on Wednesdays and Sundays. 4 And they have a septic field which they very 5 much expressly forbade me to be driving that 6 thing anywhere over there. So kind of where 7 we put it was where they had asked me to put 8 it. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: And once the 10 building is finished what are you going to 11 do with your truck? Are you going to be 12 coming back in front of the Board again? 13 MR. FELLOWS: I don't know. I 14 would hope that we have an enough sales by 15 then that the project gets a little momentum 16 and I don't need to have any extra 17 advertising like that. 18 I would be more than happy to 19 agree to when the building is complete that 20 we either get it out of there or do come 21 back and then at your leisure tell me yes or 22 no for any extensions at that time. 23 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, I do have 24 some concerns because the City is very
61 1 explicit in their guidelines as to what's 2 approvable and what's not. And we are 3 always very cautious in looking at things 4 like that so we don't open any type of flood 5 gates or whatever. 6 But as I mentioned before as long 7 as nobody else has any complaints, I'm not 8 going to be opposed to it. However, I would 9 look for in a Motion that it does have some 10 kind of language in it that would indicate 11 that if a complaint is received then this 12 variance or granting that we would provide 13 here tonight would become null and void, it 14 would have to be moved. At least that's my 15 thoughts. 16 And I will open it up to the rest 17 of the Board. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 19 Shroyer. 20 Yes, Mr. Gatt? 21 MEMBER GATT: I agree with the 22 previous speaker. I don't see a problem 23 with it now, for the time being. I would 24 like to even go a step further and put a
62 1 stipulation that says maybe come back to the 2 Board within in a year or when the site is 3 complete, whichever comes first, just so in 4 case things go south with the church 5 building fund, that this won't just be free 6 advertising. It won't necessarily be as 7 copastetic a year from now. So that would 8 be my only wish for a Motion to approve. 9 Thank you. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 11 Yes, Mr. Bauer? Did I see your hand up? 12 MEMBER BAUER: I just have one 13 problem. This has nothing to do with the 14 church. So it's an off site sign and 15 blatantly prohibited. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Off premises, 17 yes. 18 MEMBER BAUER: That bothers me. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga? 20 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just have 21 a comment with regards to a comment that was 22 made about receiving any complaints. I 23 would hesitate you in putting in a Motion 24 that you are simply granting it because you
63 1 received no complaints, but if you receive 2 complaints it would be null and void. How 3 it affects the surrounding neighbors is a 4 factor that can be looked at under the 5 practical difficulty standard, but it's not 6 the only factor to be looked at. 7 So I just wanted to put that out 8 there that I wouldn't recommend putting that 9 in a Motion and relying solely on that. 10 You could, however, put a stipulation in if 11 you were to grant it for a time frame. 12 MR. FELLOWS: May I also add 13 something? You made me think about -- no? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Just wait a 15 minute, sir. 16 MR. FELLOWS: Okay. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: How are we doing 18 here? Anybody wants to make any Motion? 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Can you go with that 20 stipulation that you would suggest one more 21 time? I was -- because I agree with Member 22 Shroyer that I would like to put some type 23 of comment that although I know that it's 24 not our only thing that we look at, but if
64 1 there are any complaints I would like the 2 Petitioner to come back so we can look at 3 the full facts of the case at that time. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga? 5 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, if the 6 Board was looking to grant a variance, 7 because ordinarily motor vehicle signs are 8 not allowed. You could put a stipulation in 9 the approval that is good for six months. 10 And then after six months the Petitioner 11 would come back because perhaps construction 12 has started or another sign might be more 13 relevant or something there. Then that 14 would give a time frame so that you could 15 determine whether there are any health and 16 safety issues or anything like that. That 17 would be aside from any complaints that 18 might be received or something. 19 We could just take a look at it 20 and after six months or however long, or 21 like the Petitioner said, once construction 22 begins or something like that. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Where on the
65 1 site, I kind of drove by when it was dark 2 out a little bit, so I couldn't see the van. 3 I don't think the van was there. 4 Where on the site would it be? Or where 5 have they asked you to place it? 6 MR. FELLOWS: It's east of the 7 church. There is a parking lot that is 8 immediately adjacent right next to the 9 church on the east side and they asked me to 10 keep it all the way to the eastern end of 11 that parking lot so they could still have 12 two aisles for their cars to park. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: And how would 14 you be parking it? Would it be 15 perpendicular or parallel to 10 Mile? 16 MR. FELLOWS: It really only fits 17 perpendicular to 10 Mile. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: That's what I 19 thought. So it doesn't even look like 20 they're going for the full extent. If it 21 was up to me I would place it parallel to 10 22 Mile, you know, blocking a couple driveways. 23 And so it is a win-win situation. And I 24 think that given the elements of vandalism
66 1 and also that they are working with other 2 people in the community I think that it's a 3 great deal that you have going on that they 4 are allowing you to store it. 5 So I don't particularly see an issue. I 6 would like to see a six month situation and 7 I would also like the comments that Mr. Gatt 8 made with the findings he would like to 9 make. 10 And you can tell the reverend that I am 11 going to win 370 million dollars tonight in 12 the Big Game, so I would be more than 13 willing to build a new building for him. 14 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 15 MEMBER FISCHER: She knows how to 16 get ahold of me. Thank you, Mr. Chair. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All 18 right. 19 Well, it's time to have a Motion 20 and move on with this particular case. 21 MR. FELLOWS: Mr. Chair, I don't 22 mean to -- but Mr. Shroyer had brought up a 23 question about objections and I had a 24 thought that I would like for you to
67 1 consider prior to your Motion, if I may. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. 3 MR. FELLOWS: If there is a way 4 to stipulate that any objection be grounded. 5 Like it's blocking traffic or -- I mean, not 6 just some builder five miles away going, 7 well, he has one and I don't kind of 8 objection. You know, I don't know. I would 9 hope that the objection is a real objection. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: (Unintelligible) 11 I think it would be premature to make 12 comments about it. Thank you. 13 MR. FELLOWS: Thank you. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. All 15 right, you were making a Motion? Yes? 16 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to 17 try. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. 19 MEMBER SHROYER: And ask for help 20 along the way if I am saying something that 21 needs help with, I guess. 22 In Case number: 07-004 filed by 23 Michael Fellows and Mozart Homes L.L.C., 24 located at 51395 West 10 Mile Road I move to
68 1 approve the request to allow said motor 2 vehicle to be parked on the property 3 identified until such time as the church 4 begins construction a period of six months, 5 or until a complaint is registered with the 6 City by a neighboring property owner, 7 whichever comes first. 8 MEMBER BAUER: With reason. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: That's why I 10 want help with this and some other -- 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Given the 12 recommendations that we did receive I would 13 prefer to leave the last part out and just 14 stick with six months. If a complaint is 15 lodged then we can review that in six 16 months. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: In six months, 18 yes. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: I would, 20 however, ask you to include that as long as 21 Free Will Baptist Church is going to allow 22 it to be parked there as well. 23 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, strike the 24 portion about a neighboring property owner
69 1 and add to the Motion as long as permission 2 is still valid from the church. 3 Does that cover everything you 4 wanted, Mr. Gatt, as well? 5 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Do we need to 7 have a reason for something like this, a 8 finding? 9 MS. OZGA: I believe you should 10 have something in there establishing. As you 11 know under the sign Ordinance there is a 12 different standard for practical difficulty 13 as with other variations. But if you wanted 14 to add something based on what the Applicant 15 has said, that would be advisable. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Shroyer 17 could suggest something along the lines that 18 substantial justice is being done to the 19 Applicant and the adjacent homeowners as 20 well the community at large. I would go 21 over those grounds. 22 MEMBER SHROYER: I think that 23 along with improving safety due to recorded 24 vandalism of the property and goodwill for
70 1 the church as well as the membership. Would 2 that help? 3 MS. OZGA: Yeah, that sounds like 4 that would be appropriate. 5 MEMBER GATT: I will second. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, the Motion 7 has been made and seconded. And I believe 8 we have discussed -- Yes? 9 ROBIN WORKING: Who seconded the 10 Motion? Thank you. 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you please 12 call the roll. 13 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 15 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 16 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 17 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 19 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 21 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer? 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 23 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
71 1 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes 2 6-0. 3 MR. FELLOWS: Thank you. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good luck. 5 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to 6 make one final comment if I may. 7 We granted this for six months. 8 Please look at other options because as 9 talked, it is against the City guidelines, 10 Ordinances, etcetera. Because we gave it to 11 you for this six month period, when you come 12 back we ought to have an option to look at. 13 MR. FELLOWS: No problem there. 14 I have been around long enough to know what 15 happens today isn't necessarily going to 16 stick. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. 18 MEMBER SHROYER: Very good. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 20 MR. FELLOWS: I don't mean that 21 in a bad way. 22 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Moving on. Case 24 Number 5. Case Number: 07-005 filed by Gary
72 1 F. Gebhardt of Apex Sign Company Technology 2 located at 45065 Pontiac Trail in the Novi 3 Square Shopping Center. 4 Would you please identify 5 yourself. 6 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Gebhardt was 7 unable to attend tonight. I am his partner, 8 Denny O'Reilly. I own Apex Sign 9 representing Dollar Tree. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you be 11 sworn in by our Secretary. 12 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right 13 hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to 14 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-005: 15 MR. O'REILLY: I do. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 17 MR. O'REILLY: Thank you. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please make your 19 presentation. 20 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Chairman, 21 before I begin I got some pictures here of 22 some mock-up that we have done on the size 23 of the signs we are asking for. I would 24 like to pass them out to the Board. I
73 1 didn't get enough sets, I'm sorry. You will 2 have to share if you don't mind. 3 What we did was we put together 4 some banners with the actual size of the 5 signage letters and the logo that we are 6 proposing to be granted a variance for for 7 this site for Dollar Tree at the Plaza. 8 A couple of the issues there is 9 there is no tenant sign at the plaza 10 identifying all the tenants in there. 11 And it sits quite a ways back from the road. 12 As you can see from some of the pictures 13 there we have got issues with trees, we have 14 got issues with cars that are parked, this 15 and that. 16 Our client has over 150 foot of 17 actual building frontage that would be 18 considered for signage if you were going by 19 building frontage. And compared to the 20 other tenants which probably have between 20 21 and 30 feet. So there's probably never been 22 anyone that asked for a variance in this 23 plaza anyway because they didn't have room 24 to put a bigger sign up.
74 1 We have a lot of room which you 2 can see and what we're asking for really 3 doesn't overcome the building, if you will. 4 It fits up there very nicely. Dollar Tree 5 has a logo that they like to show which 6 actually fits very well with this 7 architecture of this building over the front 8 door. 9 And, again, we've got a pretty 10 big tenant there. We're not asking for more 11 than one sign as far as identifying the 12 business. We are asking for a little bit 13 bigger sign than the actual Ordinance 14 allows. And then we're asking for a logo 15 which is something that Dollar Tree likes to 16 do. 17 Again, it's not overwhelming the 18 property, if you will. And actually in my 19 opinion as a sign guy it looks pretty good 20 up there over the front door, the logo, 21 anyway. And would like to ask the Board to 22 grant a variance for us to build the actual 23 channel letters to be 42 inches high and put 24 them up there as opposed to 30 inch that's
75 1 up there now. 2 I appreciate your understanding 3 on this and it would not be any type of an 4 overwhelming situation. And would give us 5 the exposure we need from the road. Thank 6 you. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 8 Is there anybody in the audience who would 9 like to address the Board regarding this 10 case? 11 Seeing none, Mr. Amolsch? 12 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments. 14 Sixteen notices were mailed, zero approval, 15 zero objections. 16 Open it up to the Board. Yes, Mr. 17 Bauer? 18 MEMBER BAUER: Whether we approve 19 it or not he still has to get a letter from 20 his property owner. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's right. 22 That was going to be my question. Who is 23 the owner of this property? 24 MR. O'REILLY: That's a good
76 1 question. I don't know. I am just the sign 2 guy. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: You can't make 4 all these changes -- 5 MR. O'REILLY: I can get a 6 letter. I think they have already been 7 approved by the landlord because the people 8 that were in there before had bigger signage 9 than what we have up, but we can get a 10 letter. If you want to base your approval 11 upon us getting an approval letter from the 12 landlord it wouldn't be a problem. 13 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, the 14 application states Barrington West Real 15 Estate LLP, and we can contact them for that 16 approval. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you. 18 MR. O'REILLY: Thank you. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. Yes, 20 Mr. Shroyer? 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Would you like 22 me to start? 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Why not. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Why not. A
77 1 couple of questions. The 30-inch letter 2 sign that were there currently, how many 3 square feet does that constitute for the 4 entire sign? 5 MR. O'REILLY: That's up there 6 now? 7 MEMBER SHROYER: Correct. 8 MR. AMOLSCH: It's 58 square 9 feet. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: It's 58 square 11 feet. 12 MR. AMOLSCH: It's 23 feet, two 13 inches by 30 inches. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: And they are 15 allowed up to 65 square feet? 16 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct. 17 MEMBER SHROYER: So right now you 18 are seven square feet under, so obviously 19 under the current Ordinance you would be 20 permitted to enlarge the sign a little bit 21 anyway, so that's one good statement here. 22 A second statement is I kind of 23 like the logo. Like you say the 24 architecture kind of blends itself to it.
78 1 But make no mistake, the logo is considered 2 a sign as well. So your request for an 3 enlarged sign and an additional sign. And 4 if my math is correct, the current request 5 for the new sign is approximately 72 percent 6 increase over what is approvable going from 7 65 square feet to 112 square feet if my math 8 is right. 9 So what I am looking at is I can 10 go either way with the logo sign. I kind of 11 like it, it is a second sign, but I don't 12 see any way that I could approve a 72 13 percent increase or a 112 square foot 14 signage. It's just too big compared to our 15 current Ordinance and the guidelines that we 16 try to follow. 17 I may be amenable to a percentage 18 increase 15, 20, 25 even perhaps, but I 19 would like to hear what the rest of the 20 Board has to say about this and how they 21 feel. That's where I currently stand. 22 Thank you, Mr. Chair. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 24 Shroyer.
79 1 Yes, Ms. Krieger? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Mr. Amolsch, how 3 big is the coin laundry sign? 4 MR. AMOLSCH: I can find that out 5 if you would like. There was a variance on 6 that sign and I believe the chinese 7 restaurant also had a variance to their sign 8 as was the old Ordinance which only allowed 9 a 40 square feet maximum sign. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Anybody else? 11 Mr. Fischer? 12 MEMBER FISCHER: If the Chair 13 will allow. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will 14 make a couple comments while we're waiting 15 for those answers. 16 I was kind of wondering too, 17 Member Krieger, what the sign is relative. 18 I agree with the previous speaker concerning 19 the logo, I feel that it is esthetically 20 pleasing. I think it does fit well up 21 there. I'm I not on? They keep knocking the 22 door on me. 23 So I'm fine with the logo sign. 24 I feel that it does lend itself to the
80 1 building. What I am also happy to see about 2 this Petitioner, just to comment to the 3 other Board members is that, oftentimes 4 since they have the corner store they would 5 be in here asking for two Dollar Tree Signs. 6 Instead they are willing to go with a logo 7 as well as an increased sign, which I am 8 very happy to see as well. I am glad you're 9 not looking to put a second sign on that 10 other side. 11 However, as Member Shroyer did 12 say, I feel that the Dollar Tree sign does 13 sort of engulf at its current size the 14 building and I don't think it is as pleasing 15 on the eye as the logo is. So I would be 16 willing to look at some of the percentages 17 that Member Shroyer suggested. 18 Are you willing to look at some 19 smaller sizes? 20 MR. O'REILLY: No, no. 21 MR. FISCHER: So it's either all 22 or nothing? 23 MR. O'REILLY: Well, the sign 24 that's up there is 30 inches. We're just
81 1 asking to go another 12 inches higher. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. But at 3 the same time the City calculates its square 4 footage the same all over. And that's how 5 it's calculated, it's how it's calculated. 6 Given that, I am not willing to support the 7 increase to 112. I'm willing to still 8 support the logo. But thank you very much, 9 Mr. Chair. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. We 11 are waiting for Alan to tell us. In the 12 meantime -- yes, Mr. Gatt. 13 MEMBER GATT: I tend to agree 14 with both previous speakers. I am for the 15 logo sign to be placed in the location that 16 is mocked up right now. I like it, I think 17 it's a nice addition to the building. I 18 think that if that was placed along with a 19 smaller percentage increase in the Dollar 20 Tree lettering sign, I think that would do 21 wonders for recognition of the store front 22 and the store itself to travelers by. 23 But I cannot agree with a Motion 24 to grant a variance of a 112 square foot
82 1 sign. It is engulfing to the building and 2 to that side of the building. So I tend to 3 agree with the previous speakers that the 4 logo I like, I like the way that it looks. 5 I like the way that it compliments the 6 building. However, the wall sign, the 7 lettering is too big in its proposed state. 8 Thank you. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: While we are 10 waiting I might ask you a question. The 11 sign that you got on the wall now is a 12 regular sign, it's not a mock-up, is it? 13 MR. O'REILLY: The sign that's up 14 there? 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: The sign that's 16 up there now on the wall is not a mock-up? 17 MR. O'REILLY: No, no, it's an 18 actual lighted channel letter sign. It's 30 19 inch sign. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: It's a regular 21 sign. On the photograph here you view it in 22 the photograph of a mock-up sign. 23 MR. O'REILLY: It is a mocked up 24 sign. It's over the regular sign because
83 1 that where it would go. 2 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, it was 3 brought to my attention that the Petitioner 4 was unable to have the mock-up sign on the 5 building for your viewing prior to the 6 hearing so they are here tonight to beg for 7 forgiveness and to submit these photographs 8 of the mock-up sign as it was installed 9 today was it or yesterday? 10 MR. O'REILLY: Yesterday or today, 11 I'm not sure what day the guys put it up. 12 ROBIN WORKING: So that's why you 13 might be confused on your visit. You did see 14 the actual sign that was approved by permit 15 and fits our Ordinance and the picture he 16 brought you this evening is the sign that 17 they're asking for now. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: I see. Thank 19 you for clarifying because to me the sign 20 that is already existing looks pretty 21 adequate. Thank you. 22 All right. You got some answer, 23 Mr. Amolsch? 24 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, the coin
84 1 laundry sign was granted by a variance and 2 it is 25 feet by two for 50 square feet. 3 And the chinese restaurant was granted 4 26 feet by 30 inches for 65 square feet. 5 Those are both the variances. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Okay. 7 So you got the information that you wanted. 8 Are there any further discussion? If not, 9 the Chair will entertain a Motion. 10 Yes, Mr. Fischer? 11 MEMBER FISCHER: With the City 12 Attorney it appears that I would making a 13 Motion to approve the logo and deny the 14 additional square footage. (Unintelligible) 15 the City Attorney should address two 16 separate Motions? Or one large one? 17 MS. OZGA: You can basically do 18 it either way. It may be more clean to do 19 two separate Motions. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 21 I would move that in Case number: 07-005 22 filed by Apex Sign for Dollar Tree located 23 at 45065 Pontiac Trail, that we grant the 24 Petitioner's request for logo sign as stated
85 1 in the packet due to the fact that the 2 Petitioner has established that this 3 addition will not be a detriment to public 4 safety and welfare. 5 It will not diminish the 6 surrounding properties and it is fair and 7 provides substantial justice to this 8 Petitioner as well as the others within this 9 shopping center. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: Support. 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion has been 12 made and seconded. 13 If there is no further 14 discussion, please call the roll. 15 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Chair, I have 16 one question -- 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Not now, sir. 18 MR. O'REILLY: Okay. 19 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer 20 seconded? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 22 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you. 23 Member Fischer? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
86 1 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 4 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 5 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 6 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 7 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 9 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 11 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes for 12 the logo sign approval 6-0. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Okay. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair, I 15 would move that in Case number: 07-005 16 filed by Apex Sign Company for Dollar Tree 17 located at 45065 Pontiac Trail, I move that 18 we deny the Petitioner's request as stated 19 on our packet for the additional 47 square 20 feet variance with verbiage of Dollar Sign 21 due to the fact that Petitioner has not 22 established the elements of practical 23 difficulty. 24 Saying that, the Petitioner has
87 1 not established that this request is based 2 upon circumstances or features that are 3 exceptional or unique to the property and do 4 not result from conditions that exist 5 generally in the city. 6 The Petitioner has not 7 established that the use requested would 8 unreasonably interfere with adjacent or 9 surrounding properties. And the Petitioner 10 has not established that substantial 11 injustice is being done to both the 12 Applicant and the adjacent property owners. 13 Lastly the Petitioner has not established 14 that this variance request would be 15 consistent with the spirit and intent of the 16 Ordinance as stated. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr. 18 Fischer. 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second. 21 (Unintelligible) 22 MEMBER BAUER: You second? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, it was
88 1 seconded. Thank you. 2 All right. Any further 3 discussion? 4 Seeing none, please call the 5 roll. 6 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer? 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 8 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger? 9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 10 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 13 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 14 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 15 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 18 ROBIN WORKING: Motion to deny 19 the additional 47-square foot variance 20 request passes 6-0. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Let's 22 move on to the next one. 23 24 Okay, the next one on the line.
89 1 Case Number: 07-006 filed by John W. 2 Carpenter for 1328 East Lake Drive. The 3 Applicant is requesting variances for 4 building a new home. 5 Is anybody here? Is the 6 Applicant here? Is Mr. Carpenter here? 7 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, I 8 believe you will find in the file a note 9 that I personally spoke to the Applicant 10 about appearing here this evening and he 11 assured me that he would be here. I would 12 possibly entertain that perhaps there is a 13 problem that he has maybe tried to call the 14 Building Department. We could maybe 15 entertain a Motion on the table. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Well, we'll call 17 the next one and see if he shows up. 18 ROBIN WORKING: Would you like me 19 to check and see if there is a message, sir? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, let's move 21 on to the next one. And in the meantime if 22 he comes we will put him at the end of the 23 list. 24
90 1 All right, let's go on to Case 2 Number: 07-007 filed by -- oh, he is also 3 not here. 4 5 So we move to the next one, Case 6 Number 8. 7 MEMBER BAUER: We're moving right 8 through this. 9 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Right. Case 11 number: 07-008 by John Dionne of Beacon 12 Sign Company for Novi Big Boy located at 13 26401 Novi Road. The Applicant is 14 requesting a variance to allow a 15-foot 15 ground pole sign. 16 Would you please identify 17 yourself. State your name and address and 18 be sworn in by our Secretary and make your 19 presentation. 20 MR. DURANI: Good evening. George 21 Durani (ph) at 26401 Novi Road, Novi, 22 Michigan. 23 MR. EVANS: John Evans with 24 Beacon Sign, 19460 Mount Elliott in Detroit.
91 1 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise 2 your right hand. So you swear or affirm to 3 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-008? 4 MR. DURANI: Yes. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. 6 MR. DURANI: We are here 7 requesting basically two variances. We want 8 to put up a sign in front of the Novi Big 9 Boy. The pictures have been submitted. 10 There is a mock-up sign in front as it would 11 be if no variance is granted. 12 And what we're looking for is two 13 variances. One to raise the sign would be 14 the equivalent of 15 feet to the top. And 15 the reason we need that variance is our land 16 is below grade. And to have our sign equal 17 to grade of the road plus the six feet that 18 we're allowed we're asking to go 15 feet 19 because we're like nine feet below grade. 20 And I don't know if anybody drove by and saw 21 the mock-up sign, but we are below grade to 22 be even with all the other signs on the 23 road, that's why we're asking it to be 24 raised, the sign.
92 1 And further to raise it we have 2 to put it on something and so we ask for a 3 pole to raise the sign. And those are the 4 two variance requests we're asking for 5 today. 6 Do you have any questions? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is 8 there anybody in the audience who would like 9 to address the Board regarding this case? 10 MR. TOUMI: I would. 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, please 12 come forward. State your name and address 13 and continue. 14 MR. TOUMI: My name is Mark Toumi 15 and I am representing the Melting Pot 16 Restaurant at 26425 Novi Road. And what I 17 would like to suggest is, it's a unique 18 situation where that place is located at 19 with that roundabout turn in there. I too 20 have been having comments from my guests, my 21 customers and stuff that they cannot find 22 where to turn in to go to the Melting Pot 23 Restaurant especially if you are coming from 24 the Grand River side heading towards I-96.
93 1 By the time you get past the little turn at 2 the stop light and you actually go past to 3 see the restaurant you can't make that turn 4 there. So the only choice you have to do is 5 to go back and turn around near Twelve Oaks 6 Mall and come back the other way. 7 And even in the other direction it's very 8 hard to know where you make the access 9 because that's to be honest is why that sign 10 was put there originally to let people know 11 where to make the entrance into the old Novi 12 Expo Center. 13 What I would like to suggest if I 14 can get approval and agreement with Big Boy 15 and the sign company is to actually make 16 that sign on the post available to both the 17 Melting Pot and Big Boy for, A, to help with 18 the traffic safety with people slowing down 19 trying to figure out where to turn out, and 20 also to make it a little more practical for 21 people to gain access to both my facility 22 and Big Boys. 23 And I would be willing to 24 monetarily work out a deal between the two
94 1 if we could get the variance taken care of. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All 3 right. Building Department? 4 MR. FOX: No comment, sir. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments. 6 Okay, 28 notices were mail. Zero approval, 7 zero objections. Thank you. 8 Okay, go ahead, Mr. Fischer. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: I guess my first 10 question would be would you be willing to 11 entertain a -- 12 MR. DURANI: Like I said, we've 13 always had a good relationship since he's 14 moved in. I am willing to sit down with 15 him, but I don't know what does with square 16 footage and all that. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: And that would 18 be my next question -- 19 MR. DURANI: That's up to Alan -- 20 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the 21 Board -- 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Well, we 23 wouldn't be able to act on the case. 24 MR. DURANI: Not now, right.
95 1 MEMBER FISCHER: Right. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Right. 3 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the 4 Board we did not notice for this. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. So 6 that's why I headed -- 7 (Interposing) (unintelligible) 8 MR. DURANI: We have a fine 9 relationship. I am sure we can talk about 10 it. 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: We can only 12 discuss what we have before us. Thank you. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: So, first off it 14 looks like I think if we were to do anything 15 as a Board I would like to see something 16 intermingled like that. I think that is a 17 great idea. 18 Living in Novi being from here I 19 know where to go and I can do that, but 20 you're right. You guys are on the corner. 21 You have 96. You have visitors. You have 22 people coming from long ways to go to 23 restaurants. So I would be willing to 24 entertain something.
96 1 One comment I would like to make, 2 Mr. Amolsch. See this picture here? 3 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: Is this too 5 close to the road for them to place 6 something on top of the grade? 7 MR. AMOLSCH: They are allowed to 8 be three feet inside the property line. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm sorry? 10 MR. AMOLSCH: They are allowed to 11 be three feet inside the property line. 12 That's where the sign can be located. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. I am not 14 a big fan of pole signs, that's my issue. 15 The only time that I remember allowing a 16 pole sign is Harold's Frame Shop and that 17 had such exceptional circumstances because 18 they had a huge bridge built over the 19 railroad tracks that you couldn't see them 20 whatsoever unless they were on a pole. And 21 I would hate to see any pole signs on Novi 22 Road. 23 MR. DURANI: Let me see what you 24 are looking at. Oh, all right. I was just
97 1 talking to the sign guy coming in. That we 2 can shroud that with like, I don't know, a 3 shroud. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: I guess where 5 I'm going is that I would like to see if we 6 can get any closer to the grade increase 7 here and not only that, what we could do 8 about a monument sign at that time. So that 9 would be much more, I think that would be 10 much esthetically more pleasing. 11 MR. DURANI: I can address that, 12 Mr. Fischer. What happened is is because of 13 the road going and this is way before my 14 time. But the strip of property that 15 actually is up to my road and actually some 16 of my parking is on it doesn't belong to us. 17 It belongs to us, you, the Department of 18 Transportation, there is all kinds of 19 variances on it. 20 Because my original intent was to 21 put a sign, build up the flower bed that's 22 there and put my sign there. But I 23 couldn't. It has to go into the lot. 24 See, I can't go where you would want me to
98 1 be because I don't own that property. It's 2 an easement. A mutually -- I think Robin 3 can explain it. 4 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the 5 Board, it is an easement owned by the State 6 of Michigan being granted permission for use 7 by the City of Novi. 8 Mr. Durani has been trying for 9 almost a year now. 10 MR. DURANI: A year. 11 ROBIN WORKING: To try and remedy 12 the sign situation for his business and he 13 has run into one road block after another on 14 having to do with the property ownership and 15 easement issue as well as what's going on 16 with the old Novi Expo Center. 17 MR. DURANI: It is, again, a very 18 unique situation where that property was 19 there, has been taken. Now it used as a 20 reciprocal easement through Novi, through 21 the State of Michigan, through our parking, 22 through a number of things. So now we are 23 forced back into our parking lot which again 24 is even lower than that grade. So somehow we
99 1 have to get the sign up. 2 So, again, we talked about it. If a pole is 3 the issue what we will do is we will shroud 4 it so it doesn't look -- and eventually, 5 sure, I would like to throw some dirt around 6 there and stuff. Until I know what I'm 7 putting I can't. 8 And I think since I have been 9 there a year and a half now, I don't know if 10 any of you have been to the corner, but I 11 have made a lot of improvements over there 12 inside and out. I want to continue doing 13 it. And this is the way I have to do it. 14 It's the only place it can go. 15 And, again, there are some 16 problems with people pulling in there. I 17 did a big mistake and Alan and I worked it 18 out. That sign that was there was falling 19 apart. And I fixed that Novi Expo sign, it 20 turned out it's not mine and I couldn't do 21 it. I fixed it. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: I understand. 23 And I'll wrap up with is, I would like to 24 see it tabled. I would like to see
100 1 something that encompasses both of you guys 2 because I feel that you both have the same 3 issue. 4 And I would like to see it 5 created closer to that encompassing that you 6 have discussed. 7 ROBIN WORKING: I might point out 8 to the Board also that there is a sewer 9 improvement project that will be initiated 10 with the Novi Big Boy as well as the City of 11 Novi. I don't know if Mr. Toumi is aware of 12 that or not, what his thought was on a time 13 frame for this, but the current Petitioner 14 I think is the person that would agree to 15 the table. 16 MR. DURANI: If that's what you 17 need us to do. What I would like to see to 18 help you out, is I would like to see this go 19 and then bring him back and I will be happy 20 to come with up and then we can take my sign 21 and then figure out where his would fit on 22 that pole basically, you know, to put it 23 there and with some directional signage to 24 it, that would be fine.
101 1 But what I would like to do is 2 get mine moving because there is all these 3 issues going on with the City with Benny 4 over in Public Works and with Alan and it's 5 just everything has been all surrounding 6 this sign. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Understand. And 8 I am actually going to let some other Board 9 members say their mind. I am not the only 10 guy here to make the decision and see if 11 they have any questions for you and also 12 hear their thoughts. So, thank you. 13 MR. DURANI: All right. Thanks. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Yes, Mr. 15 Gatt? 16 MEMBER GATT: I have a question 17 for you. When you say shrouding this pole, 18 what exactly do you mean? 19 MR. DURANI: Well, it would look 20 like a it's a solid wall. I mean, it would 21 look like a solid sign. We can make it any 22 size. 23 MEMBER GATT: Okay. 24 MR. DURANI: We would square it
102 1 off or you wouldn't just see this round 2 metal pole. So it would be square, it would 3 be hollow on the inside, but it would be 4 square or rectangle. 5 MEMBER GATT: To dress it up as 6 much as you can a pole. 7 MR. DURANI: It would be putting 8 clothes on the pole. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: Pants on the 10 pole. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Pants on it. 12 MR. DURANI: Pants on the pole, 13 right, or a skirt. 14 MEMBER GATT: I truly do feel for 15 you in this particular situation. I think 16 this is the best solution for the problem at 17 hand for your particular piece of property 18 now knowing that there is some State land 19 involved. And I am sure you looked into 20 every option possible beyond this to try to 21 come to a peaceful resolution for it. I 22 think that this idea due to the heavy 23 traffic volume and the possibility for a lot 24 of customers to be able to be more
103 1 directionally apt to figure out where this 2 place is, I think that this is a good idea. 3 I think that you should look into helping -- 4 MR. DURANI: I would love to help 5 him. We talked about this a long time ago. 6 MR. TOUMI: And I tried to get 7 ahead of you today. 8 MR. DURANI: Did you? 9 MR. TOUMI: But they wouldn't 10 give me your number (unintelligible). 11 MR. DURANI: They're not supposed 12 to give my cell out. They did a good job. 13 MEMBER GATT: I think that would 14 be good for the City as a whole instead of 15 creating another big mess. In that 16 situation I would support a Motion to pass 17 this variance as requested because of the 18 unique circumstances of your property. 19 MR. DURANI: Thanks. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 21 Thank you, Mr. Gatt. 22 Yes, Mr. Shroyer, were you saying 23 something? 24 MEMBER SHROYER: I don't know.
104 1 I'm not in favor of pole signs either. I 2 don't like the idea of putting pants on the 3 pole or whatever we were discussing as a 4 possibility. I'm a little disappointed that 5 we don't have a topography type pack of 6 information where we could see the road 7 grades or actual pictures or something. 8 I have eaten there so many times that I 9 didn't even go over to check out the site 10 because I thought I knew it by heart. But 11 it never dawned on me that it would be nine 12 feet below grade. 13 MR. DURANI: If you go by -- 14 well, I know you can't now, but maybe I 15 could give you a visual. When you're at our 16 site the tops of the cars that are parked in 17 that front are at the top of the road. 18 MEMBER SHROYER: On the corner? 19 MR. DURANI: If you park in my 20 parking lot facing Novi Road, the top of the 21 car is at the road. 22 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Well, 23 that's not nine feet. Five-foot -- 24 MR. DURANI: Except the grade is
105 1 the middle of the road, so we're talking at 2 the -- 3 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, the middle 4 of the road. 5 MR. DURANI: You know what I'm 6 saying? 7 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand 8 that, yeah. At the end of the crown where 9 the curbing it's a lot lower, well, not a 10 lot lower -- 11 MR. DURANI: Well, substantially 12 lower. When I found out it's substantially 13 lower. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Because I agree 15 with one of the previous speakers, Member 16 Fischer, pole signs are -- and I would be 17 more apt to have something that would look 18 like a monument sign so that if the road 19 crowns down, if the bottom of the sign was 20 at curb level where it looked like it was a 21 monument sign, I probably would be more open 22 to that then having it -- 23 MR. DURANI: It has to get above 24 the cars that park in the lot obviously and
106 1 above the berms to the right of this. Did 2 you go see the temporary sign I put up? 3 MEMBER SHROYER: No, I didn't. 4 That's what I said, this is one of the few I 5 didn't go to. 6 MR. DURANI: Maybe you went by it 7 and you couldn't see it because it was so 8 low. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those of you 10 that have been around long enough to know 11 that it was a ditch in the old days. 12 MR. DURANI: Yeah. 13 MEMBER SHROYER: One of the 14 things I wanted to ask is, Member Bauer, if 15 you could enlighten us as to a little bit of 16 the history of signage on Bob Evans and the 17 Expo and, of course now the Melting Pot? 18 Because it seems like from what I have heard 19 that's changed quite a few times over the 20 years. And I believe you sat on the Board 21 for a while and might be able to enlighten 22 us on that. 23 MEMBER BAUER: When Evans was in 24 there they had a sign that met the Ordinance
107 1 and that Melting Pot going in is going along 2 with that same sign. 3 The Expo sign is on state property. In 4 fact, you should have the State take it down 5 because we can't, they can't. 6 MR. DURANI: Is that what it is, 7 the State has to take it down? Oh. 8 MEMBER BAUER: And the Big Boy 9 used to have a sign on the far end, the 10 north end. 11 MR. DURANI: They used to have a 12 highway sign the big one with the Big Boy on 13 it. They used to have a giant sign. It's 14 ashame it's not still there or we wouldn't 15 be here -- 16 (Interposing) (Unintelligible) 17 MEMBER BAUER: But that left just 18 the Expo sign. And that was for 19 identification. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: The entrance. 21 Thank you, I appreciate that. And that's 22 probably where I'm a little hesitant because 23 I see it as a bigger issue than Big Boy. 24 And even though I love your sign, I love
108 1 your new logo and everything, I think it's 2 sharp. 3 MR. DURANI: Thank you. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: But the whole 5 issue is the entry way to your property and 6 to the Melting Pot and to whatever is going 7 to be in the Expo. And if we put a pole 8 sign up there is it going to be blocking 9 other signage? 10 MR. DURANI: Well, why don't we 11 do this to help address your issue. If you 12 grant my variance now I can start moving 13 ahead with the engineering and the things. 14 The Melting Pot can come in and make their 15 own petition because they are going to have 16 to come in and ask for a sign. 17 They can come in and make their own 18 Petition. I won't object to allowing him to 19 add on something to my pole and maybe we can 20 get some direction at that point. But at 21 least I could move forward then and get all 22 this stuff worked out where the sewer line 23 issue and the engineering issues and all 24 that because it's going to take me at least
109 1 30 days to do that. 2 I don't know, how long does it take for him 3 to get on the agenda? 4 ROBIN WORKING: If the Petitioner 5 needs to appear before the ZBA, the next 6 hearing he would be eligible for is in May. 7 MR. DURANI: In May. This is 8 March. 9 ROBIN WORKING: The May 8th 10 hearing and the cutoff date to submit 11 information or an application and that's the 12 cutoff date, not the due date is April 9th. 13 MR. DURANI: Would you be able to 14 do that? 15 ROBIN WORKING: He would first 16 have to apply for a sign permit request and 17 see where that goes. And I'm ostensibly 18 assuming that he would be denied because he 19 would be applying for something that's not 20 allowed by Ordinance. 21 MR. DURANI: Right, because it's 22 not on his property, right? 23 ROBIN WORKING: Well, I think 24 there would probably be more than one issue.
110 1 MR. DURANI: Yeah, for sure that 2 would be one issue. But then in the 3 meantime I could have the engineering and 4 all that because it really wouldn't affect 5 him, because all he would be doing is adding 6 to what I have. And then he can then, we 7 can address that issue and maybe even get 8 some more direction going, but in the mean 9 time I could get that going. 10 MEMBER BAUER: May I ask him a 11 question? 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, 13 please. 14 MEMBER BAUER: When is the sewer 15 going to go in? And on your property? 16 MR. DURANI: Well, what's 17 happening is to make the long and short of 18 it, my property attaches to a sewer that's 19 about a half a mile long that is, I'm the 20 only one using it for the City. They want 21 to abandon a lot of sewer line. 22 So what has to happen is they 23 will abandon that sewer and then we will 24 reattach to a different area. I met with
111 1 Benny McCuster and a couple people from 2 there and I'm awaiting, they are supposed to 3 get to me. They are bringing in their 4 engineers now to figure out how they want to 5 do it. And then they are going to come to 6 me. We have been working on this issue for a 7 year or so. 8 So whenever they come to me 9 that's what I'm waiting for. But, again, we 10 just met on Tuesday and where the sign is 11 going now doesn't affect them, that portion 12 of the site. 13 MEMBER BAUER: That's what I want 14 to make sure. 15 THE WITNESS: Yes, that portion. 16 What they were afraid of is the grade would 17 change there and it doesn't. They were 18 saying, well, what if we change, it doesn't 19 go over there. Because if you look at the 20 picture the sewer is actually going the 21 opposite way of where we're putting it and 22 we're abandoning what goes out to the front. 23 MEMBER BAUER: At one point you 24 said it was going to be in your parking lot
112 1 too. 2 MR. DURANI: What? 3 MEMBER BAUER: Part of the sewer. 4 MR. DURANI: The sewer has two 5 choices. It can either go -- is that running 6 north and south -- east and west. 7 (Unintelligible) Either it's going to go 8 west or east, not north or south. It's 9 going to go west or east. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga? 11 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, there has 12 been a lot of comments about another 13 Petitioner or something coming forward and 14 another request. Right now we just have 15 this one request for this applicant before 16 you which is what you should be looking at. 17 If the Petitioner ask to table it for some 18 reason you can entertain that. Or if you 19 wanted different mark ups or something of 20 this sign you could table it. But right now 21 you should only be looking at this. And 22 then down the line you may get other 23 requests that could be affected. But right 24 now you are just looking at this particular
113 1 request. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: I agree a 3 hundred percent. Thank you. 4 Okay, so, what is the pleasure of 5 the Board? Do you want to deal with this 6 particular sign now? And if so lets 7 entertain a Motion regarding the case on 8 hand. 9 Yes, Mr. Gatt? 10 MEMBER GATT: I have a comment. 11 Other members of the Board have shown issues 12 with a pole sign and they are recommending 13 other choices, other options. I am 14 wondering what other options there are. I 15 am wondering in this particular circumstance 16 if there are any other types of options that 17 would be able to because of the grade of the 18 land and the low sites that we're dealing 19 with, that I can't think of any other way to 20 get a sign up. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is visible. 22 MEMBER GATT: That people can see 23 from the road. I know that pole signs aren't 24 necessary the greatest things you have in a
114 1 particular situation for the City. However, 2 in this situation the variance requested is 3 really at its heart a very very serious 4 practical difficulty because of this plot of 5 land. 6 If I can understand a type of 7 monument sign or what other options there 8 might be I might be able to change their 9 minds. But in this particular situation I 10 can't see how because the spot where I put a 11 sign is owned by the State I don't 12 understand how there could be any other 13 possibility. 14 MR. DURANI: Mr. Gatt, I can show 15 you a little picture. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Just wait for a 17 moment, sir. 18 MR. DURANI: All right. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Fischer? 20 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree that 21 there's practical difficulty. I agree that 22 the grade does not allow for a sign to be 23 perfectly just set on the ground. And that 24 there does need to be height. I definitely
115 1 agree with that, I guess. I'm not a sign 2 expert so I don't know. But it's always 3 been my role up here to make sure that they 4 have looked at all the opportunities. So I 5 would almost take that question you asked 6 and direct it to the sign maker and say, 7 what else have you looked at and why can't 8 do you it? 9 MR. DURANI: Let me show you a 10 picture here. That is the monument sign. 11 It's upside down. That is the monument sign. 12 That's a pole sign with a reader board. So 13 forget the reader board, we're not putting 14 that on there. If we took the pole sign and 15 see this little tiny shroud here and we just 16 made it longer here we can bring it down and 17 make it look like this. That's what I'm 18 talking about as a shroud. So actually it 19 would look like a tall monument sign. Is 20 that what you're looking for? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: And there you 22 go. That picture shows a lot to me. I 23 don't want one little 24 pole --
116 1 MR. DURANI: Right, that's how I 2 figured you were meaning it, so -- 3 MEMBER FISCHER: And I like how 4 it looks like that shroud will kind of match 5 up with the bottom layout of the sign. 6 MR. DURANI: Yeah, we can do 7 that. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Something 9 similar -- 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Was there any 11 height recommended? 12 MR. DURANI: Level with the road 13 and then you set your sign on top and you 14 got your -- 15 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the 16 Board please keep in mind that we will 17 require an extraordinary variance to what is 18 allowed by the Ordinance as it is currently 19 stipulated. 20 MR. DURANI: Would that be part 21 of the sign or something? 22 ROBIN WORKING: Well, it would be 23 exceed. I will let Alan -- 24 MR. AMOLSCH: The sign has got to
117 1 be a monument which has to serve to the 2 ground by the new Ordinance. You can't have 3 any poles, uprights or columns of any kind. 4 THE WITNESS: Either way you 5 wanted it. I can do full, I can do the 6 shroud, I can make this thing skinnier, I 7 can make it wider. Do you want that left up? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. May I 9 suggest we stick to the Applicant's variance 10 request and move on with it if it is okay 11 with everybody. 12 So, where are we at now? He is 13 requesting a variance to involve 15 foot 14 ground pole sign. And what is the pleasure 15 of the Board? 16 MS. KRIEGER: Considering their 17 unique circumstances and the practical 18 difficulties that they have explained I 19 would not be opposed with their request. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, all right. 21 Mr. Gatt? 22 MEMBER GATT: I'm just concerned 23 about what other extreme variances there 24 would be with what was just put on?
118 1 MR. AMOLSCH: The height 2 variance, of course, and then like I said 3 the monument sign has to be affixed to the 4 ground with a monument under the current 5 Ordinance. So a shroud or anything like that 6 does not meet the code. So you need a 7 variance for that too. 8 (Interposing) (Unintelligible) 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga? 10 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just 11 wanted to mention that if the Applicant 12 wanted to look at doing something like that 13 I believe it would take an amendment of his 14 application and renotice because that would 15 be requesting or you would be looking at 16 different variances, so it would have to be 17 renoticed. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All 19 right. Anybody wants to make any Motions 20 now? Or do you still want to discuss 21 further? 22 MEMBER SHROYER: I have another 23 question. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, ask
119 1 the question. 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Amolsch, 3 can't we consider this a ground sign, a 4 ground monument sign and give the variance 5 to the height? 6 MR. AMOLSCH: No, it's not a 7 ground monument sign. I'll read the 8 definition in the Ordinance. A ground sign 9 means a sign not attached to any buildings 10 supported by a monument placed in the ground 11 surface such that the entire bottom of the 12 sign is affixed to the ground and is not 13 supported by poles, columns or uprights. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: That's what it 15 says here. So we would have to consider the 16 sign itself as being the bottom of the 17 illuminated portion and the shroud cannot be 18 part of the sign, that's part of the upright 19 column. 20 MR. AMOLSCH: It has to be on a 21 monument affixed to the ground. 22 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: 24 (Unintelligible).
120 1 MR. AMOLSCH: Correct. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think that's 3 where we should direct our attention to. 4 Yes, Mr. Gatt. 5 MEMBER GATT: All things 6 considered, I would move to in Case: 07-008 7 filed by John Dionne of Beacon Sign Company 8 for Novi Big Boy located at 26401 Novi Road. 9 I would move to grant the variance requested 10 for the 15-foot ground pole sign based on 11 the fact of the practical difficulty of the 12 Applicant and due to the location of the 13 property. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Second. 15 MEMBER BAUER: What's the size of 16 the sign? (Unintelligible) 17 MR. DURANI: No, no, that's to 18 the top. 19 MEMBER SHROYER: To the top of 20 the sign. 21 MEMBER GATT: That's what he's 22 asking for. He doesn't need the variance 23 for the sign. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: He just needs
121 1 more height. 2 Okay, so the Motion has been made. 3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Justin seconded. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second. 5 Go ahead. 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Just a comment 7 then at this point because it appears that 8 this may be approved at least I will be in 9 support of it. But I would want to continue 10 to encourage you to work with the Melting 11 Pot and perhaps come back to us with some 12 type of additional request that you may be 13 able to make everybody happy. 14 MR. DURANI: That's great. I'm 15 happy to work with him. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: And even when 17 they come back -- sorry, Mr. Chair. When 18 they come back, should they come back with 19 Melting Pot could they make any additions to 20 -- I would encourage you to talk to the City 21 to see if at that time you could look at 22 what type of enclosure. But I will be... 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, that will 24 be a totally different issue than what we
122 1 are discussing tonight. So let's stick to 2 what we have, we agenda. 3 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, the 4 Petitioner currently and what was publically 5 noticed is requesting two variances. One 6 for a pole and one for a height. I do not 7 believe I heard both variance requests in 8 your Motion, Mr. Gatt. So I would ask if 9 maybe you could re-paraphrase? I know 10 probably won't be able to say it word for 11 word, but -- 12 MEMBER GATT: Okay. To move to 13 grant the request for a pole measure 14 15 feet. 15 MEMBER SHROYER: Just read these 16 two. 17 MEMBER GATT: Okay, okay, I 18 understand. 19 I would move to approve that the 20 request for a variance to allow a ground 21 sign supported by a pole. 22 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you. 23 MEMBER GATT: And also to approve 24 a variance to allow the pole to be 15 feet.
123 1 MEMBER BAUER: In height. 2 MEMBER GATT: In height. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. 4 ROBIN WORKING: It's important. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 6 Absolutely. 7 Anybody seconded yet? 8 MEMBER FISCHER: I concur with 9 everything he just said. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All 11 right. So Mr. Fischer has seconded. 12 Now, the Motion has been made and has been 13 seconded. If there is no further discussion 14 can you please call the roll. 15 (Interposing)(Unintelligible). 16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt? 17 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer? 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 20 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer? 23 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
124 1 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 2 ROBIN WORKING: And Member Bauer? 3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 4 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes 5 6-0. 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you and 7 good luck. 8 MR. DURANI: Thank you very much. 9 Thanks, Alan. Thanks, Robin. 10 ROBIN WORKING: Good luck. 11 MR. DURANI: Thanks. 12 ROBIN WORKING: That's step one. 13 Mr. Chair, if I may? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. 15 ROBIN WORKING: The Petitioner 16 for the sixth case on your agenda which 17 would be Case number: 07-006 filed by John 18 Carpenter for 1328 East Lake Drive was 19 unable to rush over here. Our building 20 representative did make a call and he and 21 his wife for whatever reason transcribed 22 March 6th to March 8th and they were going 23 to be here on March 8th. So they did 24 request that if it would be okay with the
125 1 Chair and with the Board that they could 2 please be heard in the April meeting. 3 MR. SOLOMON: May I respectfully 4 address the Board about that matter? I have 5 been sitting here for two hours to address 6 the Board and I have been noticed. 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Sure, we will 8 hear you out regardless. 9 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you so much. 10 My name is Robert Solomon and I live at 11 1326 -- 12 (Unintelligible). 13 MR. SOLOMON: I live at 1326 East 14 Lake Drive. I live next to the Carpenters. 15 And they are lovely people, but I 16 respectfully request that my rights and my 17 concerns be addressed as well. 18 I have lived there for over ten years and I 19 bought this house because of the view. And 20 it obviously cost a lot more to buy a house 21 on the lake with a good view than the same 22 house located somewhere else. 23 And at least a good portion of my view is to 24 the south. And the request by the
126 1 Carpenters to build a house that's far in 2 excess size of the Zoning Ordinances will 3 essentially destroy my view, and thus the 4 value of my property and my quality of life. 5 And, therefore, I respectfully request that 6 the Board deny any variance in the Zoning 7 Ordinance in this matter. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 9 MR. SOLOMON: You're welcome. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Your point is 11 well taken. 12 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you. Can I 13 answer any questions about that? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: May I request 15 you send a letter to this effect. 16 MR. SOLOMON: I did. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: You have. We 18 have it on the record. 19 MR. SOLOMON: But I wanted to come 20 and express myself. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: I am sorry the 22 way things turned out and I appreciate your 23 spending the time here listening to other 24 exciting things.
127 1 MR. SOLOMON: May I respectfully 2 request the Board tell me whether or not my 3 presence will be required at the next 4 meeting regarding this matter seeing as I 5 did comply with the notice? 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Your very 7 presence here today and your presentation 8 will be taken into consideration and you 9 need not come in person yourself if you so 10 choose. 11 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you, sir. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, sir. 13 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, Mr. 14 Solomon's objection is in the file. 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. 16 Thank you. 17 MEMBER SHROYER: We want you on 18 TV. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. That 20 finishes all the cases we have, right? 21 ROBIN WORKING: I'm sorry? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is the end 23 of all the cases we have on the agenda? 24 ROBIN WORKING: That is correct.
128 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: So moving on to 2 the other matters. Oh, number one item on 3 other matters is the election. The Chair 4 will entertain a Motion, a proposal for 5 Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Secretary. 6 Yes, Mr. Fischer? 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair, first 8 off I want to say what an excellent job 9 you've done in the last year. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: I personally 12 like your swiftness most of all, you were 13 always willing to help us move along and 14 probably got us out the earliest we've ever 15 been. 16 Having said that I'd like to keep 17 the offices moving around. We have been 18 doing that for quite a few years now. 19 And with that I would nominate Mr. Shroyer 20 as Chair. 21 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, Mr. 23 Shroyer has been nominated proposed and 24 seconded.
129 1 Is there any further nominations? 2 Seeing none. 3 (Interposing)(Unintelligible) 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is it acceptable 5 for you to take over the duty? 6 MEMBER SHROYER: It would be my 7 honor to follow in your foot steps. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, we 9 declare Mr. Shroyer elected as the Chair for 10 next year. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Should we vote? 12 ROBIN WORKING: Do we need a 13 vote, Mr. Chair? 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: He is no longer 15 elect, there is nothing to vote here. This 16 is uncontested. 17 MS. OZGA: We should still have a 18 vote. 19 ROBIN WORKING: Do you need to 20 entertain any other nominations for this 21 particular position? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: We asked for any 23 other nomination but nobody else has been 24 nominated, so he has been elected unopposed.
130 1 Thank you. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: I believe the 3 City Attorney still would like to see a 4 vote. I see her squiggling over there, 5 so... 6 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's an 7 unusual situation but I have no problems. 8 All those in favor of selecting Mr. Shroyer 9 as the Chair for next year please signify by 10 saying aye. 11 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed 13 same sign. Deafening silence. Thank you. 14 Next one now for the Vice-Chairperson. All 15 right, go ahead. 16 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Chair, I 17 would like to nominate Justin Fischer as our 18 Vice-Chair for next year. 19 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, a 21 nomination has been made and seconded. And 22 Mr. Justin Fischer is the Vice-Chair. 23 Is Mr. Fischer agreeable? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes, sir.
131 1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, he's 2 agreeable. Both the Chair. Any more 3 nominations? None coming, none forthcoming? 4 So all those in favor of electing Mr. Justin 5 Fischer as the Vice-Chair please signify by 6 saying aye? 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed 9 same sign. 10 Now the secretary's position. 11 May I hear a nomination for secretary? Yes? 12 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to 13 nominate our newest member, Mr. Bobby Gatt. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Second. 15 (Unintelligible) 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Gatt has 17 been nominated and seconded. Is Mr. Gatt 18 available? 19 MEMBER GATT: Yes. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: He's available. 21 Are there any further nominations? Seeing 22 none. All those in favor of electing Mr. 23 Gatt as the Secretary of the Board for next 24 year please signify by saying aye.
132 1 BOARD MEMBERS Aye. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed 3 same sign. 4 The elections are over. Congratulations and 5 thank you very much for relieving me. 6 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, may I 7 please just review this to make sure that I 8 have it correctly? 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer will 11 be the new ZBA Board Chair. Mr. Fischer, 12 Member Fischer will be the new ZBA 13 Vice-Chair. And Member Bobby Gatt will the 14 ZBA recording secretary? 15 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is correct. 16 ROBIN WORKING: ZBA secretary. 17 (Interposing) (Unintelligible). 18 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Now, are we 20 going to talk about the By-Law updates? 21 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, it was 22 discussed that at the time when you were 23 provided dates to choose from for the ZBA 24 training schedule that we build in a time
133 1 frame also to look at the existing by-laws 2 which were adopted in 1998 for any updates 3 that may be needed. So it was just a 4 reminder that you keep that in mind. 5 You all have a copy of the by-laws that I 6 provided for you two months ago. And if you 7 would like to review those and if you see 8 any changes that you think may be needed and 9 let me know ahead of time that might be 10 better for Mr. Schultz and the office to 11 come up with ideas of how to have you come 12 up with a language for those by-laws. 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 14 Anything else for the good of the 15 (unintelligible). 16 Yes, sir? 17 MEMBER FISCHER: My last -- 18 Glendas, I wanted to discuss that. 19 I don't know if anyone on the Board has 20 driven by lately, but the fence is in 21 essence is in ruins. And I remember 22 specifically telling them. I told them 23 about a little tool you can get that will 24 crimp it and you can lock it in and it
134 1 shouldn't fall out of the rails that we 2 requested. So I would ask that maybe if Ms. 3 Working would be willing to send a note 4 of -- 5 MEMBER SHROYER: Concern. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: -- concern from 7 the Zoning Board. And I believe we also 8 have that, I would also state in that note 9 that we are able to bring them back 10 according to our Motion that we made. This 11 is a warning. If we don't see this cleaned 12 up soon that we will request their presence 13 in front of us. 14 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Fox and I 15 will speak with the building official 16 tomorrow at your request regarding the fence 17 situation at Glendas and I will keep the 18 board apprised. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: I knew you 20 would, you are the greatest. 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. If 22 that brings to an end this evening's 23 meeting, I want to thank you all for your 24 very great cooperation. I have enjoyed
135 1 working with you all and continue to do so 2 in the future. Thank you very much. 3 And I will entertain a Motion to adjourn. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to 5 adjourn. 6 (Unintelligible) 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: All those in 8 favor of the Motion to adjourn say aye. 9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good bye. Thank 11 you. 12 (The meeting was adjourned 13 at 9:42 p.m.) 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
136 1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify 5 that I have recorded stenographically the 6 proceedings had and testimony taken in the 7 above-entitled matter at the time and place 8 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further 9 certify that the foregoing transcript, 10 consisting of (112) typewritten pages, is a 11 true and correct transcript of my said 12 stenographic notes. 13 14 15 16 17 18 _____________________________ 19 Mona L. Talton, 20 Certified Shorthand Reporter 21 22 March 30, 2007 23 24
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