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REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, March 6, 2007.
1 Novi, Michigan
2 Tuesday, March 6, 2007
3 7:30 p.m.
4 - - - - - -
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: The time is 7:30
7 and I would like to call to order the
8 March 2007 meeting of the City of Novi
9 Zoning Board of Appeals.
10 Would you please rise and join me
11 in the pledge of Allegiance.
12 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge
13 allegiance to the flag of the United States
14 of America and to the Republic for which it
15 stands, one nation under God indivisible
16 with liberty and justice for all.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
18 Ms. Working, would you please call the roll.
19 ROBIN WORKING: Member Canup?
20 Member Fischer?
21 MEMBER FISCHER: Present.
22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
23 MEMBER GATT: Here.
24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
1 MEMBER BAUER: Here.
2 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here.
4 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
5 MEMBER SHROYER: Here.
6 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here.
8 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson,
9 we have one absentee, Member Brent Canup.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. But
11 we do have a quorum and the meeting now is
12 in session.
13 I would like to go over the rules
14 of conduct and you can find them on the
16 Just a friendly reminder that to
17 please turn off all your cell phones and
19 Individual applicants may take
20 five minutes and groups may take up to ten
21 minutes to address the Board.
22 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a
23 Hearing Board empowered by the Novi City
24 Charter to hear appeals seeking variances
1 from the application of the Novi Zoning
2 Ordinance. And it takes a vote of at least
3 four members to approve a variance, a
4 variance request. And a vote of the
5 majority of the members present to deny a
7 Tonight we have are full vote so
8 all decisions made will be final.
9 Are there any changes in the
10 agenda, Ms. Working?
11 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson,
12 for Case number: 07-007 which would be the
13 seventh case on the agenda, Mr. Chawney
14 informed us this afternoon that he would be
15 unable to attend and he requested to be
16 tabled to the April hearing.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, so noted.
18 Anything else? If there is nothing
19 else --
20 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair?
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
22 MEMBER FISCHER: I have maybe two
23 requests. Robin, we were going to talk
24 about training sessions. Are we going to
1 wait until Tom give us some dates?
2 ROBIN WORKING: Yeah, he wasn't
3 able to give me any dates for that to be
5 MEMBER FISCHER: And also, Mr.
6 Chair, if we could put before or whatever
7 you would like actually, I would like a
8 quick comment on Glendas at the end.
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, let's put
10 it at the end.
11 MEMBER FISCHER: At the very end?
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
13 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.
14 Thank you, Mr. Chair. And I will move to
15 approve as amended.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. The
18 Motion has and made and seconded to approve
19 the agenda. All those in favor please
20 signify by saying aye.
21 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed
23 same sign. We have now an agenda.
24 And moving on. At this point the
1 meeting is open for any public comments,
2 remarks section.
3 Is there anybody in the audience
4 who would like to address the Board
5 regarding any issue other than that is being
6 presented that is on the agenda tonight?
7 Seeing none, we will close that.
8 And next one we will go into the
9 -- next thing on the agenda is approval of
10 the minutes for December 2006.
11 MEMBER BAUER: Move that it be
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, the Motion
14 has been made to accept the Minutes as
16 MEMBER FISCHER: Seconded.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Seeing no
18 objection or corrections coming in, I will
19 entertain a Motion. We have already a
20 Motion so all in favor of accepting the
21 Minutes please signify by saying aye.
22 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
1 This bring us to the first case.
2 And that is Case number: 07-001 filed
3 Etkins Equities for Hilton Garden Inn
4 located at 27355 Cabaret Drive.
5 Is the applicant here? Please
6 come forward to here. State your name and
7 address and be sworn in by our Secretary
8 unless you are an attorney.
9 MR. BEDNESS: My name is Robert
10 Bedness (ph) with Etkin Equities, 29100
11 Northwestern Highway, Southfield. I am the
12 appellant in this case.
13 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise
14 your right hand. Do you swear or affirm to
15 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-001?
16 MR. BEDNESS: I do.
17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please proceed.
19 MR. BEDNESS: Just in brief
20 summary of our appeal in this case. The
21 purpose of the appeal is we intend to
22 construct a 147 room Hilton Garden Suites
23 hotel on the site and because of mitigating
24 situation and circumstances that occurred
1 over the development of this property over
2 the last five years, when the property was
3 -- can I use this? I have a board, but if
4 this is better. That's not very good
6 At the lower part of the page is
7 Cabaret Drive, the property under
8 consideration is this property to the south.
9 And there is an existing four story
10 residence and hotel on the property to the
12 I also have a larger board with
13 me if that would help. But basically what
14 happened is when this property was acquired
15 by us five or six years ago there were,
16 there was a master plan developed for the
17 site that included three sites, but actually
18 only two parcels of land. So there was this
19 Residence Inn Hotel and an office building
20 to the north which is a Telcom Credit Union.
21 And then ultimately there was going to be an
22 office a Flex Tech office building on this
23 third site that we have on consideration
1 But when that plan was filed five
2 or six years ago for site plan approval, the
3 ownership of both what is now the Residence
4 Inn and what is now this vacant site under
5 consideration was under one ownership. So
6 there never was a formal lot split or two
7 parcels created at the time.
8 The site plan was approved that
9 way. In fact, the City is still holding
10 bonds until the second building project is
11 completed on the site.
12 But what happened during the
13 course of development is the Residence Inn
14 Hotel was completed about three, three and a
15 half years ago. And near the closing the
16 lender for that property required that the
17 property be broken out separately from the
18 rest of the parcel.
19 So at that time this property
20 line was created which basically splits the
21 driveway between the two parking areas. And
22 actually created this, I guess,
23 non-compliant side yard setback for not only
24 the Residence Inn but also this property.
1 So the history is kind of created
2 the circumstance that needs to be corrected.
3 Now about a year and a half ago, maybe it
4 was longer than that, in December and
5 January of, December of '04 and January of
6 '05, there was a development that didn't
7 materialize on our Hilton Garden Inn site
8 for Sally Mae and the same article was
9 brought before the Zoning Board of Appeals
10 at that time to try and rectify that
12 At that time the Board approved
13 that appeal. I believe it still stands
14 properly in place for the Residence Inn
15 property, but because no action was taken to
16 develop the third site that we are
17 considering today, the variance expired for
18 that site.
19 As a consequence when we went
20 before the Planning Commission a few months
21 ago for approval of the site plan they
22 brought it to our attention that we needed
23 to bring this matter back before you for
24 consideration for the variance.
1 I think the important thing to
2 notice here is that overall the respective
3 layout of the parking areas, the entrance
4 driveways and relationships of the buildings
5 has not changed at all from the original
6 site plan that was approved about five years
7 ago even though they were different
8 buildings or the Hilton was a different
9 building, the basic site configuration has
10 not changed from that site plant approval at
11 that time.
12 So what we are asking for at this
13 time does not materially change what was
14 previously approved in the essential
15 character and nature of the site, this
16 landscaping and everything else remains
17 unchanged from that plan.
18 That pretty much summarizes the
19 case. I would be very happy to answer any
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.
22 Thank you. Does anybody in the audience
23 like to make any comments about this case?
24 Seeing none, I will inform the Board that
1 there were six notices were mailed, one
2 approval, zero objections.
3 Just one approval, Mr. Secretary?
4 MEMBER BAUER: Mr. Hankin. An
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Oh, he has put
7 it in the wrong way.
8 MEMBER BAUER: An approval.
9 That's it.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Building
11 Department, any comment?
12 MR. FOX: I guess he covered it
13 pretty well, I don't think there is really
14 anything else outstanding.
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good, no
16 comments from the Building Department.
17 I will open it to the Board for
18 discussion. Yes, Mr. Shroyer, I know you
19 raised your hand.
20 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr.
21 Chair. I had a question for our attorney.
22 The applicant's letter, part of the
23 applicant's letter states that this goes
24 back to the previously approved variance.
1 It's on page two down toward the bottom of
2 the attachments. It says: With respect to
3 the 27477 Cabaret Drive clarification is
4 required as to whether the previously
5 approved variance is still valid. If it is
6 not, then a determination should be made to
7 make it permanently valid.
8 Can you give us some direction as
9 to, first of all, is it still valid? And if
10 it is no action is needed I assume? If it's
11 not, do we as a Board need to make it
13 MS. OZGA: Right now the
14 applicant is only requesting a 20-foot north
15 side yard parking lot setback with regard to
16 the Hilton Garden Inn. That's the only
17 thing that was noticed before the ZBA, so
18 that's the only one that's before the ZBA
19 right now.
20 The previous variance I haven't
21 fully looked into it, but a variance
22 normally runs with the land and that one had
23 to do with the Residence Inn Hotel so that
24 one is not relevant today before the Board.
1 It's only the one that was noticed with
2 regard to the Hilton Garden Inn property.
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
4 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you.
5 That's the only question I had, Mr. Chair.
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.
7 Anybody else? There doesn't seem to be any
8 interest here in the discussion part of
10 As far as I am concerned I don't
11 think things have changed very much from the
12 previous time and I have personally no
13 objection to granting your request myself.
14 But I would -- yes, Mr. Fischer?
15 MEMBER FISCHER: I would agree as
16 well. I would have pretty much said the
17 same thing you did, looking through the
18 previous minutes not much has changed, so if
19 there are no further questions for the
20 Applicant, I would be willing to make an
21 affirmative Motion, Mr. Chair.
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please go ahead.
23 MEMBER FISCHER: I would move
24 that in Case number: 07-001 filed by Etkins
1 Equities for Hilton Garden Inn located at
2 27355 Cabaret Drive we grant petitioner's
3 request given that he has shown the elements
4 of practical difficulty. And that this lot
5 will be developed in accordance with the
6 site plan.
7 The physical reality of the
8 sitting placement and orientation will
9 remain unchanged from said site plan. That
10 the land unit division was required by the
11 lender in order to finance the property and
12 that favorable consideration will not alter
13 the essential character of the land or the
15 I would also move that the
16 Applicant be granted 210 days to get their
17 permit and the paperwork.
18 MEMBER BAUER: I second.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion has made
20 and seconded.
21 Any further discussion?
22 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson,
23 who seconded the Motion, please?
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Bauer.
1 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Bauer, thank
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Seeing none, Ms.
4 Working will you please call the roll.
5 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Fischer?
6 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
7 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
9 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
11 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
13 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
14 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
15 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
16 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
17 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes
19 MR. BEDNESS: Thank you very
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good luck.
22 MR. BEDNESS: Thank you.
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Moving on to the
1 next case. Case number: 07-002 filed by
2 Autumn Park L.L.C. for Autumn Park III
3 located on the Southeast corner of White
4 Planes Drive and Beck Road.
5 Applicant is requesting an extension for the
6 Subdivision business sign to remain on the
8 Please identify yourself. State
9 your name and address and be sworn by our
11 MR. COLLINS: Good evening,
12 Members of the Board. My name is Chet
13 Collins, I represent Autumn Park, L.L.C. My
14 address is 32600 Telegraph Road. That's in
15 Bingham Farms, Michigan.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your hand
17 please. Do you swear or affirm to tell the
18 truth regarding case number: 07-002?
19 MR. COLLINS: Yes, I do.
20 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
21 MR. COLLINS: Members of the
22 Board, I'm here again this evening to
23 request an extension of our current
24 temporary subdivision sign that's currently
1 located on Beck Road outside the Autumn Park
2 Subdivision, basically that subdivision. We
3 are currently maintaining a sales model in
4 the community and have ten sites that remain
5 for sale in that community.
6 Most of our current traffic is
7 driven from potential sales from the drive
8 by traffic which obviously that's what our
9 sign is for. We are making every effort to
10 wrap up sales in this community in a timely
11 basis but with the current economy obviously
12 it's taking a little bit longer than we
14 We completed two sales since our
15 last extension. I was here about six months
16 ago and you granted us a six-month extension
17 at that time.
18 Basically without the sign our
19 ability to sell the remaining home sites
20 would just take a little bit longer and we
21 just request your consideration for an
22 additional six months at this time.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is
24 there anybody in the audience who would like
1 to address the Board regarding this case?
2 Seeing none, Building Department?
3 MR. FOX: I have no comment, sir.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. Thank
5 you. We had 25 notices were mailed. Zero
6 approval, zero objections.
7 Open for the Board for discussion. Mr.
9 MEMBER FISCHER: What percent
10 built out are you or sold?
11 MR. COLLINS: There are 41 home
12 sites in Phase Three of the community. We
13 have ten sites left, so we're about 75
14 percent at this time.
15 MEMBER FISCHER: And in the last
16 six months you have sold two homes?
17 MR. COLLINS: Correct, closed on
18 two homes, yes.
19 MEMBER FISCHER: How long has
20 this sign been on this property?
21 MR. COLLINS: I don't exactly
22 know, but I would imagine probably three
24 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Amolsch?
1 MR. AMOLSCH: The permit was
2 issued in May of 2000, the original permit.
3 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Now, when
4 it was originally put up you said this was
5 for Phase Three.
6 MR. COLLINS: We originally had
7 two signs. One on Beck Road and one on 9
8 Mile for the first two phases of the
10 MEMBER FISCHER: So this did
11 serve back in 2000 as part of Phase One and
12 Phase Two?
13 MR. COLLINS: This was erected as
14 the other two -- we were asked to take the
15 other two down and this one was erected in
16 its place.
17 MEMBER FISCHER: Given the
18 economic issues we are having in Michigan.
19 Me being a Ford employee and Comerica
20 leaving today and our Governor on TV tonight
21 trying to assure us things are okay, I don't
22 see an issue with the sign, especially given
23 that the nearby residents don't seem to have
24 too much concern with it, I would be willing
1 to support another six months.
2 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.
5 Anybody else? See none, the
6 Chair will entertain a Motion from any one
7 of the Members.
8 Mr. Fischer, you are I think
10 MEMBER FISCHER: Am I being
11 chosen by the Chair? Great.
12 I would move that in Case number:
13 07-002 filed by Autumn Park L.L.C. for
14 Autumn Park III located on the southeast
15 corner of White Planes Drive and Beck Road
16 that we grant Petitioner's request for a
17 six-month extension on the sign listed as a
18 variance request.
19 I would do this because the
20 Petitioner has established practical
21 difficulty in that failure to grant relief
22 will unreasonably and substantially result
23 in more than a mere inconvenience.
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. The
1 Motion has been made.
2 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Bauer has
5 Any further discussion?
6 Seeing none, Ms. Working will you
7 please call the roll.
8 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
9 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
10 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
11 MEMBER BAUER: Aye.
12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
13 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
14 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
16 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer?
17 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
20 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Good
24 MR. COLLINS: Thank you, Members
1 of the Board, I appreciate your time. Thank
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right,
6 moving along to the next case. Is the Case
7 number: 07-003 filed by Rick Scavo of 14
8 Mile Associates, L.L.C., located at 39525
9 West 12 Mile Road.
10 And the Applicant is requesting
11 to allow date, time, temperature and a
12 message to alternately display on an
13 existing sign.
14 Is Mr. Scavo here?
15 MR. SCAVO: Yes.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please kindly
17 come and --
18 MR. SCAVO: Sir, I have some
19 drawings, if I could approach the Board I
20 would like to present them to you. I
21 apologize for this not being timely, but it
22 would be easier for you to see the original
23 approval that was done to the sign --
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's fine.
1 Let's first get you sworn in and then we
2 will to get on with that. Thank you.
3 Will you please identify yourself, your
4 name, address and phone number.
5 MR. SCAVO: Yeah, I'm Richard
6 Scavo, 39525 West 14 Mile, Suite 202, Novi,
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you raise
9 your right hand and be sworn in by our
11 MEMBER BAUER: Do you swear or
12 affirm to tell the truth regarding Case:
14 THE WITNESS: I do.
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Now
16 you can give those things whatever you want
17 to pass out.
18 MEMBER FISCHER: I can take them
19 and pass them out if you would like.
20 MR. SCAVO: Thank you very much.
21 MEMBER FISCHER: No problem.
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please go ahead,
23 make your presentation.
24 MR. SCAVO: Okay. Originally
1 about three and a half years ago we had
2 approval for the sign with a message center.
3 And the way the sign was designed there are
4 sensors for temperature, atomic clock and a
5 built in calendar so that the sign can
6 display the day, date, the time, the
7 temperature outside and a message.
8 And if you notice the letters on
9 the message center are quite large. It's
10 just one line of characters about 22
11 characters long. So it's difficult to
12 create any kind of a sentence.
13 But the understanding that I had
14 from the gentleman who designed and sold the
15 sign to us was that we had an approval for a
16 message to alternate with the day and date
17 and time as long as the message wasn't
18 scrolling. That was how the sign was
19 designed and the message center would have
20 the temperature, day, date and time and then
21 some kind of message.
22 And for the last three and a half
23 years it's been operating and we haven't had
24 any problems, but I got a letter from Mr.
1 Amolsch about a month ago stating that he
2 thought that the sign was out of compliance
3 with the original approval and he asked me
4 to come before the Variance Board to see if
5 we could be allowed to continue as the sign
6 has for the last three and a half years.
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is
8 there anybody in the audience who would like
9 to address the Board regarding this case?
10 Seeing none, Mr. Amolsch?
11 MR. AMOLSCH: I have no comment,
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments,
14 very good. Let's see. Nineteen notices
15 were mailed. Zero approval. One objection.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Hillers: No, we
17 see no need for sign.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. There you
19 are. Open it up for the Board for
21 Yes, Mr. Bauer?
22 MEMBER BAUER: On the description
23 right here on the August 18th applied for
24 this states: Digital message displayed must
1 have static message. Does not constantly
2 move or scroll. It can't be any plainer
3 than that.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr.
6 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr.
8 Mr. Scavo, you indicated that
9 back when you initially applied for this you
10 were told that this was okay?
11 MR. SCAVO: Yes, sir.
12 MEMBER SHROYER: Were you told by
13 the person who installed the sign or by
14 somebody from the City or?
15 MR. SCAVO: Well, I talked with
16 Mr. Amolsch about it and he said that to
17 have a sign that changed showing date and
18 time would be okay, but the message couldn't
19 scroll. And I have in the computer software
20 that controls the sign, the ability to do
21 all kinds of interesting graphics with
22 moving words and your exploding signs and
23 things like that to be able to display a
24 message alternate with the time and date as
1 long as the sign was just changing in what
2 we have it now is at five second intervals.
3 The window with the setback that we have on
4 the sign is about 160 linear feet along 14
5 Mile Road. It runs parallel to the road.
6 And the traffic in the area, the speed limit
7 is 45 but the traffic typically because it's
8 near an intersection travels at around
9 40 miles an hour. At 40 miles an hour
10 you're traveling at approximately 60 feet
11 per second. And given that you the window
12 up to a perpendicular that's about a second
13 and a half to view the sign as you drive by.
14 The only people that would have a longer
15 opportunity to view would be the people in
16 Hiller's parking lot waiting for an
17 opportunity to turn out. They could
18 actually see two or three sign changes.
19 I find it interesting if -- you don't mind
20 if I elaborate?
21 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, I do. If
22 you don't mind.
23 MR. SCAVO: Oh, sure.
24 MEMBER SHROYER: It's going to be
1 a long agenda this evening.
2 MR. SCAVO: No problem.
3 MEMBER SHROYER: And there is
4 going to be questions from all of us, I
6 So in your interpretation a
7 static message is one that doesn't scroll?
8 MR. SCAVO: Correct.
9 MEMBER SHROYER: It's just
10 stationary even though it changes
11 periodically it doesn't scroll. How much
12 time is in between each activity?
13 MR. SCAVO: Four seconds.
14 MEMBER SHROYER: Four seconds.
15 MR. SCAVO: But I can adjust it
16 to six or eight. We were just trying to
17 make it so that the average person driving
18 by probably wouldn't notice a sign change.
19 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand.
20 One of the things that I had written here
21 was the same as Mr. Bauer had noted. It
22 explicitly states the sign must be static
23 and not move in any manner. But I
24 understand where you are coming from with
1 that. You indicated that you received a
2 letter just last month or so. We show a
3 record of at least three notices going back
4 a year that you have been sent. And all of
5 it has to do with the changeable copy
6 portion of the sign.
7 MR. SCAVO: Well, the original
8 letter that I got when I contacted Alan, and
9 Robin was kind enough to try to review to
10 see if there was any addendums attached to
11 the approval of the sign because even Alan
12 had kind of remembered that he knew that it
13 was going to have a time, date stamp,
14 temperature and some kind of message. But
15 how can you have that with 23 letters and
16 not have it change? The time has to change.
17 The temperature changes dramatically in this
18 state. The day would have to change at
19 least daily. So a totally static message
20 you wouldn't even really have day-to-day
21 change of the day.
22 So, I guess I was under the
23 impression and it may have been the salesman
24 who was taking some liberties with the
1 definition of that because it was a $14,000
3 MR. SHROYER: And it's a very
4 attractive sign.
5 What are the options that you
6 would look at? If we do not approve this
7 tonight would you make the sign state one
8 thing at the bottom?
9 MR. SCAVO: I will do whatever
10 you tell me to do.
11 MEMBER SHROYER: Can you put down
12 vote Republican for president?
13 MR. SCAVO: Absolutely. Actually
14 I got Bill Balestrina elected to Walled Lake
15 School Board.
16 MEMBER SHROYER: I think those
17 are the main questions that I have right
18 now, Mr. Chair. Thank you.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
20 Yes, Ms. Ozga?
21 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just
22 wanted to note one sort of discrepancy. In
23 the materials that were just provided to you
24 under the permit under the description it
1 says that digital message display must have
2 a static message that does not constantly
3 move or scroll. In the materials that were
4 provided in your agenda packet it states
5 that the digital message display must have a
6 static message that does not move in any
7 manner. So I'm not sure if what was in your
8 agenda packet was something that was
9 initially drafted and that something
10 different got sent out. They essentially say
11 the same thing because they both say that it
12 cannot --
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Does not change.
14 MS. OZGA: Does not constantly
15 move. So I just wanted to point out that.
16 MEMBER SHROYER: Thanks very
17 much, I appreciate that. Thank you.
18 Yes, Mr. Fischer?
19 MEMBER FISCHER: I will take a
20 stab. Speaking of discrepancies, on the
21 application it says number six it says:
22 Appeal based on notice of violation or
23 citation issued? And the answer is, No.
24 Does this not constitute as a violation or?
1 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, it does.
2 Notice of violation is a violation. There
3 was no legal action taken. But there was a
4 notice. Actually our informant letter is
5 actually notice in itself, what we call a PR
7 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. My second
8 little note here is exactly what my two
9 previous speakers stated. And that's the
10 letter here or permit, whatever this is that
11 states right in the description that it must
12 constantly move or scroll. When I drove by
13 today it was changing quite quickly as you
14 stated every five seconds.
15 I cannot be in support of
16 anything moving that often in that area. I
17 would be in support, I don't see a problem,
18 I feel that the intent of the Ordinance
19 would allow for the date and the time and
20 the temperature. However, the constant
21 messages that are being sent out every five
22 seconds I feel are a distraction and I feel
23 for the safety of the residents and visitors
24 to our city that are driving by. So I don't
1 think that the intent is met when it's
2 changing every five seconds.
3 So I cannot be in support of
4 something of that manner. But I would be
5 willing to support allowing and interpreting
6 this to state message, time, date and
8 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
10 Anybody else?
11 I see this as a two-fold issue
12 here. Number one issue is whether there
13 should be any moving sign at all.
14 Unfortunately, but when you change the date
15 and the time and the temperature it does
16 become a changing sign. It doesn't remain
17 steady any more. So from what I hearing we
18 don't have a major problem with changing the
19 date and the time and the temperature.
20 Then it brings us to the question
21 then we have a problem with the changing of
22 the message they are putting in, the name of
23 the doctors and their specialty and that
24 seems to be the primary issue here.
1 So if you agree to change the
2 date and the time and the temperature, which
3 seems to be a reasonable thing to do, we are
4 including an issue of a sign which is a
5 destination sign and identifying the
6 business is one thing. And advertising at
7 the same time with the changing scroll is
8 another issue.
9 So my personal feeling will be in
10 favor of continuing with the changing of the
11 date and the temperature and the things, but
12 advertising portion does create a different
13 issue. It needs to be addressed.
14 Yes, Mr. Shroyer?
15 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr.
16 Chair. I think that's a point well taken.
17 And you had indicated you would do whatever
18 the Board pleases.
19 The one picture that you provided
20 us which showed the temperature and the
21 date, it doesn't show the day, it shows the
22 date, that would 20. And the temperature in
23 this case was 38 degrees. Would you be
24 amenable to limiting the sign to something
1 like that if we were to approve that by
2 Motion this evening?
3 MR. SCAVO: Yeah, I mean, I will
4 do whatever. It's just a $14,000 expenditure
5 for something that, I mean, I wish I would
6 have known that that was exactly what was
7 meant before we paid for it.
8 I don't mean to vary, but we have
9 had a huge problem with Hillers being they
10 pack fliers in all of their shopping carts
11 for their clients and they blow across the
12 street into our parking lot. And weekly
13 over the summer I was taking out 33-gallon
14 trash bag full of their plastic bags and
15 fliers over to their manager and handing it
16 to them every single week, so now --
17 MEMBER SHROYER: That's not
18 applicable to this evening's case.
19 MR. SCAVO: No, no. I just
20 noticed that they were the one objection.
21 MEMBER SHROYER: Understood.
22 This would change, obviously the temperature
23 is going to change any time the temperature
24 change and the date obviously would change
1 on a daily basis.
2 MR. SCAVO: And then the time of
3 day you wouldn't want on there?
4 MEMBER SHROYER: If you are going
5 to make it, try to make it a static sign
6 that's not constantly changing, to me this
7 would be the most amenable solution.
8 MR. SCAVO: Okay.
9 MEMBER SHROYER: I don't know
10 about the time or the date, maybe the time
11 and the temperature, or maybe we could give
12 you the option of two of those three to be
13 displayed at all times. But you need to
14 make a decision and not be alternating it
15 everyday or whatever because I think the
16 intent is if you were told time,
17 temperature, et cetera initially, and I
18 can't dispute that because I wasn't there, I
19 don't know what was said and what wasn't
21 MR. SCAVO: What I was told was
22 we would have an opportunity to have a
23 message that wasn't scrolling alternating
24 with time and date.
1 MEMBER SHROYER: And I think the
2 written information that was distributed is
3 very clear that there is no such message to
4 be moving. It says static in manner. So if
5 you wanted to have Dr. Scavo as one of the
6 pictures say and that's the only thing up
7 there 24/7 that's fine. But it may be
8 better advertisement, I guess, if you are
9 showing everybody the temperature and the
10 time or something like that. It's likely to
11 draw attention to the sign more than a
12 person's name or more than an advertisement
13 saying Orthodontist or something like that.
14 MR. SCAVO: I agree.
15 MEMBER SHROYER: So I believe
16 that I would be open to bits of information
17 on this which appears appropriate, either
18 time and temperature or date and temperature
19 or date and time. Is that right? So that's
20 what I would be open to if somebody would be
21 interested in a Motion.
22 Member Gatt has some information
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Gatt?
1 MEMBER GATT: Well, I mean just
2 detailing on what everyone else has
3 previously stated. I think that a lot of
4 the things that have been scrolling across
5 as I sat there and watched for ten minutes.
6 The biggest concern about that to begin with
7 is that some of it is sort of redundant. I
8 mean this Dr. Scavo or Scavo, what is that,
9 eight inches above it says Dr. Scavo, DDS.
10 I think a lot of this stuff is pretty much
11 in plain sight to begin with. I really
12 liked this sign to begin with and attracting
13 attention to it with the date and the
14 temperature and the time or whatever, that
15 is plenty enough to attract a person's
16 attention to the sign and say, hey, oh,
17 there is a dentist in there, I didn't know
18 that. I think that is enough to make it
19 worth your while.
20 In fact, this is a very unique
21 sign to begin with and taking away the
22 scrolling and just leaving it as a static
23 sign that will comply with the Zoning
24 Board's variance, then I think that's plenty
1 enough to have this sign the way it is now
2 with just the time and date or the time and
3 temperature, whatever you choose. And I
4 think that if you want to change it to one
5 thing and another thing on a weekly basis or
6 something like that at a given time, that
7 is, that's fine with me. That I don't have a
8 problem with. But I think to change it to
9 show which doctors and what they do is sort
10 of silly considering right above the
11 scrolling part it says what they do anyway.
12 So, that's my feeling. And I would support
13 having it be as a static to say a couple
14 things like time and date on the same
15 portion of the sign, but that's all I would
16 be in favor of. Thank you.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.
19 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Amolsch has
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, sir?
22 MR. AMOLSCH: Just to clear up a
23 matter here and inform the Board. I don't
24 know if Mr. Scavo intends on continuing the
1 scrolling message as part of sign which is
2 definitely not permitted by the new
3 Ordinance. We adopted the new Ordinance in
4 September which allows what we call
5 changeable copy sign. They can be changed
6 four times an hour. But they cannot scroll
7 or move in any manner. And also time and
8 temperature are not considered an animated
9 sign which is what the scrolling sign is
10 considered under the new Ordinance as an
11 animated sign.
12 So, Mr. Scavo's sign can change
13 four times an hour as long as it doesn't
14 scroll under the new code. If that helps
15 the Board at all.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
17 That's interesting.
18 Yes, Mr. Fischer?
19 MEMBER FISCHER: I definitely
20 thank you for that. I think that's exactly
21 kind of where we're going. Time, date and
22 temperature fine. I was even thinking if he
23 wanted to change it once a day, fine. But
24 if the Ordinance allows four times an hour
1 then that's what he is allowed. So I would
2 move along with the denial of this variance.
3 I believe that would be a way to handle it.
4 MEMBER BAUER: Good.
5 MEMBER FISCHER: But I am looking
6 confused a little.
7 MS. OZGA: I'm sorry, Mr.
8 Fischer, can you clarify what you just said?
9 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. What I was
10 saying was that I think the Board was going
11 towards agreeing with the time, date and
12 temperature which apparently through the new
13 Ordinance is allowed and maybe allowing for
14 some type of change once a day or something
15 I would have been okay with that. But it
16 sounds like he can do it four times an hour
17 through the Ordinance anyway, correct?
18 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct.
19 MEMBER FISCHER: So, there is no
20 point in entertaining anything more with
21 this. I think the Ordinance speaks for
22 itself. And it was just recently passed and
23 that was the intent of the Ordinance as it
1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
2 I just have a question for you. Are you
3 aware of the change in the Ordinance we were
4 just talking about?
5 MR. SCAVO: No, sir. But I will
6 make the changes to the sign.
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Because as you
8 see everything becomes (unintelligible) if
9 you go by that you can change it four times
10 an hour these three things.
11 MR. SCAVO: Yes.
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: We don't need to
13 discuss anything further.
14 MR. SCAVO: Can the sign not
15 change any faster than that? Just do it
16 every 15 minutes?
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Amolsch,
18 will you kindly explain to him the new
19 Ordinance so he understands. Explain it to
20 the Applicant what is the new Ordinance.
21 MR. AMOLSCH: The sign can
22 change. It cannot change more than four
23 times an hour otherwise its regarded as an
24 animated sign. Less than four times an hour
1 is called changeable copy sign which is now
2 allowed under the new Ordinance. It just
3 cannot go scrolling across. It's got to
4 just change and then another time it should
5 change without scrolling or moving.
6 MEMBER FISCHER: But that's with
7 a message, Mr. Amolsch. If he has the
8 temperature or the time that could change
9 according to the temperature and the time.
10 MR. AMOLSCH: Of course. That's
11 never been prohibited. The issue wasn't
12 with the time and temperature. It was with
13 the scrolling message sign.
14 MEMBER FISCHER: Is that
15 clarified for you, sir?
16 MR. SCAVO: Yes, it is.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay.
18 MR. AMOLSCH: Sorry, I misspoke
19 myself. That's only for certain uses. They
20 have the changeable copy sign only for
21 schools and that sort of thing. So we still
22 need a variance. I'm sorry.
23 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the
24 Board, if you recall the discussion about
1 the educational centers, the worship centers
2 and the section of the sign Ordinance that
3 has to do with changeable copy signs, that
4 might be something that you could consider
5 in approving a variance for a changeable
6 copy sign. The issue here is that this an
7 animated sign which is prohibited by the
9 MR. AMOLSCH: I forgot about the
10 new -- only for certain uses like schools
11 and churches and things like that.
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Are
13 you saying something?
14 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, yeah, I
15 just wanted to point that out because under
16 the Ordinance the signs are only permitted
17 for places of worship, schools, movie
18 theatres and similar entertainment venues
19 which would be for purposes like when movies
20 change at the movie theatre, things like
22 Here you could have a health and
23 safety issue if you just have a business
24 that's going to have a changing sign all the
1 time, an animated sign would be prohibited.
2 But in certain cases you could grant a
3 variance for a changeable copy sign. In
4 this instance it seems like it's a little
5 bit confusing as to what's going to go on
6 the sign and how often it's going to change.
7 I am not sure if the Applicant would want to
8 take a look at that and see what he could do
9 and come back to the Board or whatever the
10 Board wishes. But we just wanted to point
11 out the change in the Ordinance.
12 MR. AMOLSCH: That's why the
13 original sign was approved under the old
14 Ordinance which allowed a changeable copy
15 sign, again, as long as it didn't scroll or
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: I have a
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: So could we
22 table this until the next meeting that he
23 could review the Ordinance and come back to
24 us with information what it would be under
1 the changeable sign?
2 MEMBER BAUER: I don't think so.
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, I don't
4 think that would solve the major problems.
5 Because the problem here is interpretation
6 of the second part, the advertising aspect
7 of it.
8 I think under the circumstances,
9 Mr. Scavo, my suggestion would be to start
10 all over again after having another
11 discussion with Alan here, and in the
12 meantime we get on with this particular
13 request and deny it, okay? So that you have
14 a responsibility to redo everything all
16 MR. SCAVO: Okay.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay.
18 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm still a
19 little confused. So he is now not allowed
20 to change every 15 minutes?
21 MR. AMOLSCH: That is correct. I
22 misspoke myself. The original sign was
23 granted under the old Ordinance which
24 allowed a changeable copy sign, but never
1 did allow it to move or scroll in any way.
2 In regards to the new Ordinance it does
3 allow copy sign to change four times an
4 hour, but not for this use, only for uses of
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, go ahead.
7 MS. OZGA: There are some looks
8 of confusion. Under the old Ordinance the
9 Applicant still was not allowed to have a
10 scrolling sign which is currently what is
11 there. The Board could grant a variance to
12 allow a changeable copy sign in this
13 particular case because it would be varying
14 from what the Ordinance dictates now which
15 would be a movable, a changeable copy sign
16 at a business that is not something that is
17 listed under the Ordinance. So that would
18 be a variance that the Board could grant if
19 the Board wished to do so.
20 MEMBER FISCHER: Would we have to
21 renotice? And while we are reviewing that,
22 Mr. Amolsch, changeable copy does that mean
23 every 15 minutes? Is that the term every 15
1 MR. AMOLSCH: It's four times an
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Four times an
4 hour, every 15 minutes.
5 MEMBER BAUER: For that
6 particular listing of items.
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Gatt?
8 MEMBER GATT: I still feel that
9 regardless of whether or not it's a
10 changeable copy or a moving sign, for this
11 particular business because it doesn't fall
12 under the place of worship or the movie
13 theatre, things like that it's not necessary
14 for us to grant the variance. In this
15 instance I think the sign that is currently
16 in place does a lot of good for having
17 people notice what is in the facility, and
18 it is unnecessary.
19 In the previous cases that we had
20 looked at there was a unique circumstance.
21 I don't think that this is unique enough to
22 warrant a variance for it to become an
23 acceptable changeable copy sign.
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
1 Thank you, Mr. Gatt. I agree.
2 All right, so, where are we now?
3 Entertain a Motion from somebody?
4 Go ahead, Mr. Gatt.
5 MEMBER GATT: I would like to
6 make a Motion to deny the applicant in Case:
7 07-003 filed by Rick Scavo of 14 Mile
8 Associates L.L.C., located at 39525 West 14
9 Mile Road due to the fact that he has not
10 displayed a reasonable amount of practical
11 difficulty in this particular case.
12 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
14 Motion has been made and seconded.
15 Yes, Mr. Shroyer?
16 MEMBER SHROYER: Now that that's
17 on the table I would like to get a
18 clarification to make sure that if this is
19 denied he would still be permitted to have
20 the time and temperature because it's not
21 part of an animated sign?
22 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct. As
23 long as it remain static.
24 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, they have
1 to change. You wouldn't be changing it from
2 (unintelligible) back?
3 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes.
4 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you.
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Anybody
6 else? Any other discussions?
7 Seeing none. Did you get the
9 ROBIN WORKING: I did.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you please
11 call the roll.
12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
13 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
14 ROBIN WORKING: To deny?
15 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
17 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
19 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
20 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
1 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
2 ROBIN WORKING: Motion to deny
3 passes 6-0.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
5 MR. SCAVO: Thank you for your
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: But you know
8 where we are coming from, don't you? What
9 we are suggesting is that you try and work
10 within the new Ordinance so you don't have
11 to go (unintelligible). Thank you.
13 Okay, moving on. Next Case
14 number: 07-004 filed by Mike Fellows for
15 Mozart Homes L.L.C., located at 51395 West
16 Ten Mile Road. Applicant is requesting to
17 allow a motor vehicle with advertising to be
18 parked on the private property.
19 Is the applicant here? Please come forward.
20 Identify yourself, state your name and
21 address and be sworn in by our Secretary.
22 And then make your presentation.
23 MR. FELLOWS: Good evening. My
24 name is Mike Fellows from Mozart Homes. We
1 are now at 45326 Jacob Drive here in Novi.
2 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise
3 your hand, please. Do you swear or affirm
4 to tell the truth regarding Case: 07-004?
5 MR. FELLOWS: I do.
6 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.
7 MR. FELLOWS: Thanks for letting
8 me speak. I will be very quick. We have a
9 small moving van that we use, moved as a
10 kind of courtesy van to move customers if
11 they buy a house or to store some of their
13 We had been parking it where we
14 had an office building in the Industrial
15 Complex on Joe Drive for a little while, but
16 we are no longer in that facility. Like
17 many other builders we have cutback on quite
18 a lot of things and we are now operating out
19 of one of our model homes, in fact, the only
20 model home that we have.
21 The truck had been parked at the
22 Provincial Glades job which is on 9 Mile
23 Road a little bit east of Napier. It's a
24 fairly remote area and there had been a
1 couple of instances of some vandalism to the
2 truck while parked there. There are no
3 lights. At night it's kind of just
4 unwatched, unprotected.
5 And it came to my attention
6 through a former employee who actually went
7 to a service at the church at 10 Mile and
8 Napier that they were looking for someone to
9 build them a new building. So we went over
10 there to talk about that. And actually had
11 the truck that day and another question came
12 up where they said what about this van, can
13 we use this van for some of our members to
14 move and I said sure.
15 And they offered actually as I
16 got to talking with the pastor and told him
17 about the truck being the subject of some
18 vandalism they offered to let us park it
19 there. And naturally there is a sign on the
20 truck advertising the project at 9 and
21 Napier which is remote and hard to see. So
22 we thought, sure, it would be great to have
23 it parked there.
24 And so we are proposing right
1 now, working on a proposal I should say to
2 build a new building for them. And in the
3 meantime they have given us permission which
4 I believe you should have a copy of to park
5 the truck there.
6 And that's basically all we're
7 doing. We have permission, as I say, the
8 truck is not intrusive in any way to either
9 traffic or visibility. It is simply a truck
10 parked in a parking lot, albeit with a sign
11 on it. So we are just here requesting to be
12 permitted, to allow, I guess, to get a
13 variance to be able to keep it there.
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's it.
15 Thank you.
16 MR. FELLOWS: That's it. Thank
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is there anybody
19 in the audience who would like to address
20 the Board regarding this case?
21 Seeing none, Building Department?
22 MR. FOX: No comment, sir.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments. We
24 sent out ten notices. One approval, zero
2 MEMBER BAUER: Mr. Francis
3 Ferguson approval. I do approve of a
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
6 That's about it. So I open it to the Board
8 While we are looking at it, this
9 is a very interesting situation. This is an
10 off the premise sign so-to-speak, and kind
11 of an arrangement between the church and its
12 builder so-to-speak. I went there but I
13 didn't see your van.
14 MR. FELLOWS: I apologize for
15 that. It had been there for a while and it
16 was to serve as a mock-up sign but over the
17 weekend we had a customer out in a job we
18 did in Milford who needed the van to move
19 some furniture and I couldn't say no. If it
20 is your wish I can put it back there and we
21 can come back next month --
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
23 MR. FELLOWS: I just want to do
24 whatever I can. But, yeah, I do apologize.
1 I intended for it to be there and it was for
2 two straight months.
3 ROBIN WORKING: The Applicant
4 just likes visiting us at the Building
6 MR. FELLOWS: Well that may be
7 true. I don't know if they like me visiting
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr.
11 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr.
12 Chair. We could all take a road trip. No,
13 it sounds like it's a win-win for several
14 people. And my initial response was if it
15 was okay and no complaints or objections
16 were received it would be okay with me. And
17 I still pretty much feel that way.
18 But I did want to ask what
19 building is being constructed and what's the
20 time frame we are looking at? Or what's the
21 size of the building and what's the time
23 MR. FELLOWS: They are hoping for
24 a building that is in the neighborhood of
1 80 feet by a 100 feet. They are very
2 uncertain of their time frame. They kind of
3 have uncertain funding at this point.
4 But I just -- my last meeting with the
5 reverend which was about a week ago he did
6 say there was some good news and some
7 benefactor, somebody had some money for
8 them, so I don't know if that's true.
9 To actually build the building with the site
10 plan approval and all the procedures here in
11 Novi is probably a year's process from the
12 time that they pull the trigger. I would
13 think at a minimum.
14 MEMBER SHROYER: I was trying to
15 figure out can it be parked behind the
16 building while it's under construction? So
17 that if we don't know when the construction
18 is going to begin, you don't know the time
20 MR. FELLOWS: Right, right and a
21 lot of things are uncertain. The building
22 that's there now is right on the corner as
23 you probably all know. The existing parking
24 lot is kind of behind or to the side of the
1 church. And it's a very small parking lot.
2 That thing fills up. They only have
3 services on Wednesdays and Sundays.
4 And they have a septic field which they very
5 much expressly forbade me to be driving that
6 thing anywhere over there. So kind of where
7 we put it was where they had asked me to put
9 MEMBER SHROYER: And once the
10 building is finished what are you going to
11 do with your truck? Are you going to be
12 coming back in front of the Board again?
13 MR. FELLOWS: I don't know. I
14 would hope that we have an enough sales by
15 then that the project gets a little momentum
16 and I don't need to have any extra
17 advertising like that.
18 I would be more than happy to
19 agree to when the building is complete that
20 we either get it out of there or do come
21 back and then at your leisure tell me yes or
22 no for any extensions at that time.
23 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, I do have
24 some concerns because the City is very
1 explicit in their guidelines as to what's
2 approvable and what's not. And we are
3 always very cautious in looking at things
4 like that so we don't open any type of flood
5 gates or whatever.
6 But as I mentioned before as long
7 as nobody else has any complaints, I'm not
8 going to be opposed to it. However, I would
9 look for in a Motion that it does have some
10 kind of language in it that would indicate
11 that if a complaint is received then this
12 variance or granting that we would provide
13 here tonight would become null and void, it
14 would have to be moved. At least that's my
16 And I will open it up to the rest
17 of the Board.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.
20 Yes, Mr. Gatt?
21 MEMBER GATT: I agree with the
22 previous speaker. I don't see a problem
23 with it now, for the time being. I would
24 like to even go a step further and put a
1 stipulation that says maybe come back to the
2 Board within in a year or when the site is
3 complete, whichever comes first, just so in
4 case things go south with the church
5 building fund, that this won't just be free
6 advertising. It won't necessarily be as
7 copastetic a year from now. So that would
8 be my only wish for a Motion to approve.
9 Thank you.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
11 Yes, Mr. Bauer? Did I see your hand up?
12 MEMBER BAUER: I just have one
13 problem. This has nothing to do with the
14 church. So it's an off site sign and
15 blatantly prohibited.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Off premises,
18 MEMBER BAUER: That bothers me.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga?
20 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just have
21 a comment with regards to a comment that was
22 made about receiving any complaints. I
23 would hesitate you in putting in a Motion
24 that you are simply granting it because you
1 received no complaints, but if you receive
2 complaints it would be null and void. How
3 it affects the surrounding neighbors is a
4 factor that can be looked at under the
5 practical difficulty standard, but it's not
6 the only factor to be looked at.
7 So I just wanted to put that out
8 there that I wouldn't recommend putting that
9 in a Motion and relying solely on that.
10 You could, however, put a stipulation in if
11 you were to grant it for a time frame.
12 MR. FELLOWS: May I also add
13 something? You made me think about -- no?
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Just wait a
15 minute, sir.
16 MR. FELLOWS: Okay.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: How are we doing
18 here? Anybody wants to make any Motion?
19 MEMBER FISCHER: Can you go with that
20 stipulation that you would suggest one more
21 time? I was -- because I agree with Member
22 Shroyer that I would like to put some type
23 of comment that although I know that it's
24 not our only thing that we look at, but if
1 there are any complaints I would like the
2 Petitioner to come back so we can look at
3 the full facts of the case at that time.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga?
5 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, if the
6 Board was looking to grant a variance,
7 because ordinarily motor vehicle signs are
8 not allowed. You could put a stipulation in
9 the approval that is good for six months.
10 And then after six months the Petitioner
11 would come back because perhaps construction
12 has started or another sign might be more
13 relevant or something there. Then that
14 would give a time frame so that you could
15 determine whether there are any health and
16 safety issues or anything like that. That
17 would be aside from any complaints that
18 might be received or something.
19 We could just take a look at it
20 and after six months or however long, or
21 like the Petitioner said, once construction
22 begins or something like that.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
24 MEMBER FISCHER: Where on the
1 site, I kind of drove by when it was dark
2 out a little bit, so I couldn't see the van.
3 I don't think the van was there.
4 Where on the site would it be? Or where
5 have they asked you to place it?
6 MR. FELLOWS: It's east of the
7 church. There is a parking lot that is
8 immediately adjacent right next to the
9 church on the east side and they asked me to
10 keep it all the way to the eastern end of
11 that parking lot so they could still have
12 two aisles for their cars to park.
13 MEMBER FISCHER: And how would
14 you be parking it? Would it be
15 perpendicular or parallel to 10 Mile?
16 MR. FELLOWS: It really only fits
17 perpendicular to 10 Mile.
18 MEMBER FISCHER: That's what I
19 thought. So it doesn't even look like
20 they're going for the full extent. If it
21 was up to me I would place it parallel to 10
22 Mile, you know, blocking a couple driveways.
23 And so it is a win-win situation. And I
24 think that given the elements of vandalism
1 and also that they are working with other
2 people in the community I think that it's a
3 great deal that you have going on that they
4 are allowing you to store it.
5 So I don't particularly see an issue. I
6 would like to see a six month situation and
7 I would also like the comments that Mr. Gatt
8 made with the findings he would like to
10 And you can tell the reverend that I am
11 going to win 370 million dollars tonight in
12 the Big Game, so I would be more than
13 willing to build a new building for him.
15 MEMBER FISCHER: She knows how to
16 get ahold of me. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All
19 Well, it's time to have a Motion
20 and move on with this particular case.
21 MR. FELLOWS: Mr. Chair, I don't
22 mean to -- but Mr. Shroyer had brought up a
23 question about objections and I had a
24 thought that I would like for you to
1 consider prior to your Motion, if I may.
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead.
3 MR. FELLOWS: If there is a way
4 to stipulate that any objection be grounded.
5 Like it's blocking traffic or -- I mean, not
6 just some builder five miles away going,
7 well, he has one and I don't kind of
8 objection. You know, I don't know. I would
9 hope that the objection is a real objection.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: (Unintelligible)
11 I think it would be premature to make
12 comments about it. Thank you.
13 MR. FELLOWS: Thank you.
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead. All
15 right, you were making a Motion? Yes?
16 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead.
19 MEMBER SHROYER: And ask for help
20 along the way if I am saying something that
21 needs help with, I guess.
22 In Case number: 07-004 filed by
23 Michael Fellows and Mozart Homes L.L.C.,
24 located at 51395 West 10 Mile Road I move to
1 approve the request to allow said motor
2 vehicle to be parked on the property
3 identified until such time as the church
4 begins construction a period of six months,
5 or until a complaint is registered with the
6 City by a neighboring property owner,
7 whichever comes first.
8 MEMBER BAUER: With reason.
9 MEMBER SHROYER: That's why I
10 want help with this and some other --
11 MEMBER FISCHER: Given the
12 recommendations that we did receive I would
13 prefer to leave the last part out and just
14 stick with six months. If a complaint is
15 lodged then we can review that in six
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: In six months,
19 MEMBER FISCHER: I would,
20 however, ask you to include that as long as
21 Free Will Baptist Church is going to allow
22 it to be parked there as well.
23 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, strike the
24 portion about a neighboring property owner
1 and add to the Motion as long as permission
2 is still valid from the church.
3 Does that cover everything you
4 wanted, Mr. Gatt, as well?
5 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
6 MEMBER SHROYER: Do we need to
7 have a reason for something like this, a
9 MS. OZGA: I believe you should
10 have something in there establishing. As you
11 know under the sign Ordinance there is a
12 different standard for practical difficulty
13 as with other variations. But if you wanted
14 to add something based on what the Applicant
15 has said, that would be advisable.
16 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Shroyer
17 could suggest something along the lines that
18 substantial justice is being done to the
19 Applicant and the adjacent homeowners as
20 well the community at large. I would go
21 over those grounds.
22 MEMBER SHROYER: I think that
23 along with improving safety due to recorded
24 vandalism of the property and goodwill for
1 the church as well as the membership. Would
2 that help?
3 MS. OZGA: Yeah, that sounds like
4 that would be appropriate.
5 MEMBER GATT: I will second.
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, the Motion
7 has been made and seconded. And I believe
8 we have discussed -- Yes?
9 ROBIN WORKING: Who seconded the
10 Motion? Thank you.
11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you please
12 call the roll.
13 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
14 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
15 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
16 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
17 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
19 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
21 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
22 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
23 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
1 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes
3 MR. FELLOWS: Thank you.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good luck.
5 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to
6 make one final comment if I may.
7 We granted this for six months.
8 Please look at other options because as
9 talked, it is against the City guidelines,
10 Ordinances, etcetera. Because we gave it to
11 you for this six month period, when you come
12 back we ought to have an option to look at.
13 MR. FELLOWS: No problem there.
14 I have been around long enough to know what
15 happens today isn't necessarily going to
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.
18 MEMBER SHROYER: Very good.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
20 MR. FELLOWS: I don't mean that
21 in a bad way.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Moving on. Case
24 Number 5. Case Number: 07-005 filed by Gary
1 F. Gebhardt of Apex Sign Company Technology
2 located at 45065 Pontiac Trail in the Novi
3 Square Shopping Center.
4 Would you please identify
6 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Gebhardt was
7 unable to attend tonight. I am his partner,
8 Denny O'Reilly. I own Apex Sign
9 representing Dollar Tree.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Would you be
11 sworn in by our Secretary.
12 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right
13 hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm to
14 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-005:
15 MR. O'REILLY: I do.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.
17 MR. O'REILLY: Thank you.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please make your
20 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Chairman,
21 before I begin I got some pictures here of
22 some mock-up that we have done on the size
23 of the signs we are asking for. I would
24 like to pass them out to the Board. I
1 didn't get enough sets, I'm sorry. You will
2 have to share if you don't mind.
3 What we did was we put together
4 some banners with the actual size of the
5 signage letters and the logo that we are
6 proposing to be granted a variance for for
7 this site for Dollar Tree at the Plaza.
8 A couple of the issues there is
9 there is no tenant sign at the plaza
10 identifying all the tenants in there.
11 And it sits quite a ways back from the road.
12 As you can see from some of the pictures
13 there we have got issues with trees, we have
14 got issues with cars that are parked, this
15 and that.
16 Our client has over 150 foot of
17 actual building frontage that would be
18 considered for signage if you were going by
19 building frontage. And compared to the
20 other tenants which probably have between 20
21 and 30 feet. So there's probably never been
22 anyone that asked for a variance in this
23 plaza anyway because they didn't have room
24 to put a bigger sign up.
1 We have a lot of room which you
2 can see and what we're asking for really
3 doesn't overcome the building, if you will.
4 It fits up there very nicely. Dollar Tree
5 has a logo that they like to show which
6 actually fits very well with this
7 architecture of this building over the front
9 And, again, we've got a pretty
10 big tenant there. We're not asking for more
11 than one sign as far as identifying the
12 business. We are asking for a little bit
13 bigger sign than the actual Ordinance
14 allows. And then we're asking for a logo
15 which is something that Dollar Tree likes to
17 Again, it's not overwhelming the
18 property, if you will. And actually in my
19 opinion as a sign guy it looks pretty good
20 up there over the front door, the logo,
21 anyway. And would like to ask the Board to
22 grant a variance for us to build the actual
23 channel letters to be 42 inches high and put
24 them up there as opposed to 30 inch that's
1 up there now.
2 I appreciate your understanding
3 on this and it would not be any type of an
4 overwhelming situation. And would give us
5 the exposure we need from the road. Thank
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
8 Is there anybody in the audience who would
9 like to address the Board regarding this
11 Seeing none, Mr. Amolsch?
12 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir.
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments.
14 Sixteen notices were mailed, zero approval,
15 zero objections.
16 Open it up to the Board. Yes, Mr.
18 MEMBER BAUER: Whether we approve
19 it or not he still has to get a letter from
20 his property owner.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's right.
22 That was going to be my question. Who is
23 the owner of this property?
24 MR. O'REILLY: That's a good
1 question. I don't know. I am just the sign
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: You can't make
4 all these changes --
5 MR. O'REILLY: I can get a
6 letter. I think they have already been
7 approved by the landlord because the people
8 that were in there before had bigger signage
9 than what we have up, but we can get a
10 letter. If you want to base your approval
11 upon us getting an approval letter from the
12 landlord it wouldn't be a problem.
13 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, the
14 application states Barrington West Real
15 Estate LLP, and we can contact them for that
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you.
18 MR. O'REILLY: Thank you.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. Yes,
20 Mr. Shroyer?
21 MEMBER SHROYER: Would you like
22 me to start?
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Why not.
24 MEMBER SHROYER: Why not. A
1 couple of questions. The 30-inch letter
2 sign that were there currently, how many
3 square feet does that constitute for the
4 entire sign?
5 MR. O'REILLY: That's up there
7 MEMBER SHROYER: Correct.
8 MR. AMOLSCH: It's 58 square
10 MEMBER SHROYER: It's 58 square
12 MR. AMOLSCH: It's 23 feet, two
13 inches by 30 inches.
14 MEMBER SHROYER: And they are
15 allowed up to 65 square feet?
16 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct.
17 MEMBER SHROYER: So right now you
18 are seven square feet under, so obviously
19 under the current Ordinance you would be
20 permitted to enlarge the sign a little bit
21 anyway, so that's one good statement here.
22 A second statement is I kind of
23 like the logo. Like you say the
24 architecture kind of blends itself to it.
1 But make no mistake, the logo is considered
2 a sign as well. So your request for an
3 enlarged sign and an additional sign. And
4 if my math is correct, the current request
5 for the new sign is approximately 72 percent
6 increase over what is approvable going from
7 65 square feet to 112 square feet if my math
8 is right.
9 So what I am looking at is I can
10 go either way with the logo sign. I kind of
11 like it, it is a second sign, but I don't
12 see any way that I could approve a 72
13 percent increase or a 112 square foot
14 signage. It's just too big compared to our
15 current Ordinance and the guidelines that we
16 try to follow.
17 I may be amenable to a percentage
18 increase 15, 20, 25 even perhaps, but I
19 would like to hear what the rest of the
20 Board has to say about this and how they
21 feel. That's where I currently stand.
22 Thank you, Mr. Chair.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.
1 Yes, Ms. Krieger?
2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Mr. Amolsch, how
3 big is the coin laundry sign?
4 MR. AMOLSCH: I can find that out
5 if you would like. There was a variance on
6 that sign and I believe the chinese
7 restaurant also had a variance to their sign
8 as was the old Ordinance which only allowed
9 a 40 square feet maximum sign.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Anybody else?
11 Mr. Fischer?
12 MEMBER FISCHER: If the Chair
13 will allow. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I will
14 make a couple comments while we're waiting
15 for those answers.
16 I was kind of wondering too,
17 Member Krieger, what the sign is relative.
18 I agree with the previous speaker concerning
19 the logo, I feel that it is esthetically
20 pleasing. I think it does fit well up
21 there. I'm I not on? They keep knocking the
22 door on me.
23 So I'm fine with the logo sign.
24 I feel that it does lend itself to the
1 building. What I am also happy to see about
2 this Petitioner, just to comment to the
3 other Board members is that, oftentimes
4 since they have the corner store they would
5 be in here asking for two Dollar Tree Signs.
6 Instead they are willing to go with a logo
7 as well as an increased sign, which I am
8 very happy to see as well. I am glad you're
9 not looking to put a second sign on that
10 other side.
11 However, as Member Shroyer did
12 say, I feel that the Dollar Tree sign does
13 sort of engulf at its current size the
14 building and I don't think it is as pleasing
15 on the eye as the logo is. So I would be
16 willing to look at some of the percentages
17 that Member Shroyer suggested.
18 Are you willing to look at some
19 smaller sizes?
20 MR. O'REILLY: No, no.
21 MR. FISCHER: So it's either all
22 or nothing?
23 MR. O'REILLY: Well, the sign
24 that's up there is 30 inches. We're just
1 asking to go another 12 inches higher.
2 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. But at
3 the same time the City calculates its square
4 footage the same all over. And that's how
5 it's calculated, it's how it's calculated.
6 Given that, I am not willing to support the
7 increase to 112. I'm willing to still
8 support the logo. But thank you very much,
9 Mr. Chair.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. We
11 are waiting for Alan to tell us. In the
12 meantime -- yes, Mr. Gatt.
13 MEMBER GATT: I tend to agree
14 with both previous speakers. I am for the
15 logo sign to be placed in the location that
16 is mocked up right now. I like it, I think
17 it's a nice addition to the building. I
18 think that if that was placed along with a
19 smaller percentage increase in the Dollar
20 Tree lettering sign, I think that would do
21 wonders for recognition of the store front
22 and the store itself to travelers by.
23 But I cannot agree with a Motion
24 to grant a variance of a 112 square foot
1 sign. It is engulfing to the building and
2 to that side of the building. So I tend to
3 agree with the previous speakers that the
4 logo I like, I like the way that it looks.
5 I like the way that it compliments the
6 building. However, the wall sign, the
7 lettering is too big in its proposed state.
8 Thank you.
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: While we are
10 waiting I might ask you a question. The
11 sign that you got on the wall now is a
12 regular sign, it's not a mock-up, is it?
13 MR. O'REILLY: The sign that's up
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: The sign that's
16 up there now on the wall is not a mock-up?
17 MR. O'REILLY: No, no, it's an
18 actual lighted channel letter sign. It's 30
19 inch sign.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: It's a regular
21 sign. On the photograph here you view it in
22 the photograph of a mock-up sign.
23 MR. O'REILLY: It is a mocked up
24 sign. It's over the regular sign because
1 that where it would go.
2 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, it was
3 brought to my attention that the Petitioner
4 was unable to have the mock-up sign on the
5 building for your viewing prior to the
6 hearing so they are here tonight to beg for
7 forgiveness and to submit these photographs
8 of the mock-up sign as it was installed
9 today was it or yesterday?
10 MR. O'REILLY: Yesterday or today,
11 I'm not sure what day the guys put it up.
12 ROBIN WORKING: So that's why you
13 might be confused on your visit. You did see
14 the actual sign that was approved by permit
15 and fits our Ordinance and the picture he
16 brought you this evening is the sign that
17 they're asking for now.
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: I see. Thank
19 you for clarifying because to me the sign
20 that is already existing looks pretty
21 adequate. Thank you.
22 All right. You got some answer,
23 Mr. Amolsch?
24 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, the coin
1 laundry sign was granted by a variance and
2 it is 25 feet by two for 50 square feet.
3 And the chinese restaurant was granted
4 26 feet by 30 inches for 65 square feet.
5 Those are both the variances.
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Okay.
7 So you got the information that you wanted.
8 Are there any further discussion? If not,
9 the Chair will entertain a Motion.
10 Yes, Mr. Fischer?
11 MEMBER FISCHER: With the City
12 Attorney it appears that I would making a
13 Motion to approve the logo and deny the
14 additional square footage. (Unintelligible)
15 the City Attorney should address two
16 separate Motions? Or one large one?
17 MS. OZGA: You can basically do
18 it either way. It may be more clean to do
19 two separate Motions.
20 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.
21 I would move that in Case number: 07-005
22 filed by Apex Sign for Dollar Tree located
23 at 45065 Pontiac Trail, that we grant the
24 Petitioner's request for logo sign as stated
1 in the packet due to the fact that the
2 Petitioner has established that this
3 addition will not be a detriment to public
4 safety and welfare.
5 It will not diminish the
6 surrounding properties and it is fair and
7 provides substantial justice to this
8 Petitioner as well as the others within this
9 shopping center.
10 MEMBER SHROYER: Support.
11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion has been
12 made and seconded.
13 If there is no further
14 discussion, please call the roll.
15 MR. O'REILLY: Mr. Chair, I have
16 one question --
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Not now, sir.
18 MR. O'REILLY: Okay.
19 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
22 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you.
23 Member Fischer?
24 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
1 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer?
2 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
4 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
5 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
6 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
7 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
9 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
11 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes for
12 the logo sign approval 6-0.
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Okay.
14 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair, I
15 would move that in Case number: 07-005
16 filed by Apex Sign Company for Dollar Tree
17 located at 45065 Pontiac Trail, I move that
18 we deny the Petitioner's request as stated
19 on our packet for the additional 47 square
20 feet variance with verbiage of Dollar Sign
21 due to the fact that Petitioner has not
22 established the elements of practical
24 Saying that, the Petitioner has
1 not established that this request is based
2 upon circumstances or features that are
3 exceptional or unique to the property and do
4 not result from conditions that exist
5 generally in the city.
6 The Petitioner has not
7 established that the use requested would
8 unreasonably interfere with adjacent or
9 surrounding properties. And the Petitioner
10 has not established that substantial
11 injustice is being done to both the
12 Applicant and the adjacent property owners.
13 Lastly the Petitioner has not established
14 that this variance request would be
15 consistent with the spirit and intent of the
16 Ordinance as stated.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.
19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second.
22 MEMBER BAUER: You second?
23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, it was
1 seconded. Thank you.
2 All right. Any further
4 Seeing none, please call the
6 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
7 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
8 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
9 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
10 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?
11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
13 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
14 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
15 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
18 ROBIN WORKING: Motion to deny
19 the additional 47-square foot variance
20 request passes 6-0.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Let's
22 move on to the next one.
24 Okay, the next one on the line.
1 Case Number: 07-006 filed by John W.
2 Carpenter for 1328 East Lake Drive. The
3 Applicant is requesting variances for
4 building a new home.
5 Is anybody here? Is the
6 Applicant here? Is Mr. Carpenter here?
7 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, I
8 believe you will find in the file a note
9 that I personally spoke to the Applicant
10 about appearing here this evening and he
11 assured me that he would be here. I would
12 possibly entertain that perhaps there is a
13 problem that he has maybe tried to call the
14 Building Department. We could maybe
15 entertain a Motion on the table.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Well, we'll call
17 the next one and see if he shows up.
18 ROBIN WORKING: Would you like me
19 to check and see if there is a message, sir?
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, let's move
21 on to the next one. And in the meantime if
22 he comes we will put him at the end of the
1 All right, let's go on to Case
2 Number: 07-007 filed by -- oh, he is also
3 not here.
5 So we move to the next one, Case
6 Number 8.
7 MEMBER BAUER: We're moving right
8 through this.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Right. Case
11 number: 07-008 by John Dionne of Beacon
12 Sign Company for Novi Big Boy located at
13 26401 Novi Road. The Applicant is
14 requesting a variance to allow a 15-foot
15 ground pole sign.
16 Would you please identify
17 yourself. State your name and address and
18 be sworn in by our Secretary and make your
20 MR. DURANI: Good evening. George
21 Durani (ph) at 26401 Novi Road, Novi,
23 MR. EVANS: John Evans with
24 Beacon Sign, 19460 Mount Elliott in Detroit.
1 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise
2 your right hand. So you swear or affirm to
3 tell the truth regarding Case: 07-008?
4 MR. DURANI: Yes.
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead.
6 MR. DURANI: We are here
7 requesting basically two variances. We want
8 to put up a sign in front of the Novi Big
9 Boy. The pictures have been submitted.
10 There is a mock-up sign in front as it would
11 be if no variance is granted.
12 And what we're looking for is two
13 variances. One to raise the sign would be
14 the equivalent of 15 feet to the top. And
15 the reason we need that variance is our land
16 is below grade. And to have our sign equal
17 to grade of the road plus the six feet that
18 we're allowed we're asking to go 15 feet
19 because we're like nine feet below grade.
20 And I don't know if anybody drove by and saw
21 the mock-up sign, but we are below grade to
22 be even with all the other signs on the
23 road, that's why we're asking it to be
24 raised, the sign.
1 And further to raise it we have
2 to put it on something and so we ask for a
3 pole to raise the sign. And those are the
4 two variance requests we're asking for
6 Do you have any questions?
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is
8 there anybody in the audience who would like
9 to address the Board regarding this case?
10 MR. TOUMI: I would.
11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, please
12 come forward. State your name and address
13 and continue.
14 MR. TOUMI: My name is Mark Toumi
15 and I am representing the Melting Pot
16 Restaurant at 26425 Novi Road. And what I
17 would like to suggest is, it's a unique
18 situation where that place is located at
19 with that roundabout turn in there. I too
20 have been having comments from my guests, my
21 customers and stuff that they cannot find
22 where to turn in to go to the Melting Pot
23 Restaurant especially if you are coming from
24 the Grand River side heading towards I-96.
1 By the time you get past the little turn at
2 the stop light and you actually go past to
3 see the restaurant you can't make that turn
4 there. So the only choice you have to do is
5 to go back and turn around near Twelve Oaks
6 Mall and come back the other way.
7 And even in the other direction it's very
8 hard to know where you make the access
9 because that's to be honest is why that sign
10 was put there originally to let people know
11 where to make the entrance into the old Novi
12 Expo Center.
13 What I would like to suggest if I
14 can get approval and agreement with Big Boy
15 and the sign company is to actually make
16 that sign on the post available to both the
17 Melting Pot and Big Boy for, A, to help with
18 the traffic safety with people slowing down
19 trying to figure out where to turn out, and
20 also to make it a little more practical for
21 people to gain access to both my facility
22 and Big Boys.
23 And I would be willing to
24 monetarily work out a deal between the two
1 if we could get the variance taken care of.
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All
3 right. Building Department?
4 MR. FOX: No comment, sir.
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: No comments.
6 Okay, 28 notices were mail. Zero approval,
7 zero objections. Thank you.
8 Okay, go ahead, Mr. Fischer.
9 MEMBER FISCHER: I guess my first
10 question would be would you be willing to
11 entertain a --
12 MR. DURANI: Like I said, we've
13 always had a good relationship since he's
14 moved in. I am willing to sit down with
15 him, but I don't know what does with square
16 footage and all that.
17 MEMBER FISCHER: And that would
18 be my next question --
19 MR. DURANI: That's up to Alan --
20 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the
21 Board --
22 MEMBER FISCHER: Well, we
23 wouldn't be able to act on the case.
24 MR. DURANI: Not now, right.
1 MEMBER FISCHER: Right.
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Right.
3 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the
4 Board we did not notice for this.
5 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. So
6 that's why I headed --
7 (Interposing) (unintelligible)
8 MR. DURANI: We have a fine
9 relationship. I am sure we can talk about
11 MEMBER SANGHVI: We can only
12 discuss what we have before us. Thank you.
13 MEMBER FISCHER: So, first off it
14 looks like I think if we were to do anything
15 as a Board I would like to see something
16 intermingled like that. I think that is a
17 great idea.
18 Living in Novi being from here I
19 know where to go and I can do that, but
20 you're right. You guys are on the corner.
21 You have 96. You have visitors. You have
22 people coming from long ways to go to
23 restaurants. So I would be willing to
24 entertain something.
1 One comment I would like to make,
2 Mr. Amolsch. See this picture here?
3 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes.
4 MEMBER FISCHER: Is this too
5 close to the road for them to place
6 something on top of the grade?
7 MR. AMOLSCH: They are allowed to
8 be three feet inside the property line.
9 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm sorry?
10 MR. AMOLSCH: They are allowed to
11 be three feet inside the property line.
12 That's where the sign can be located.
13 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. I am not
14 a big fan of pole signs, that's my issue.
15 The only time that I remember allowing a
16 pole sign is Harold's Frame Shop and that
17 had such exceptional circumstances because
18 they had a huge bridge built over the
19 railroad tracks that you couldn't see them
20 whatsoever unless they were on a pole. And
21 I would hate to see any pole signs on Novi
23 MR. DURANI: Let me see what you
24 are looking at. Oh, all right. I was just
1 talking to the sign guy coming in. That we
2 can shroud that with like, I don't know, a
4 MEMBER FISCHER: I guess where
5 I'm going is that I would like to see if we
6 can get any closer to the grade increase
7 here and not only that, what we could do
8 about a monument sign at that time. So that
9 would be much more, I think that would be
10 much esthetically more pleasing.
11 MR. DURANI: I can address that,
12 Mr. Fischer. What happened is is because of
13 the road going and this is way before my
14 time. But the strip of property that
15 actually is up to my road and actually some
16 of my parking is on it doesn't belong to us.
17 It belongs to us, you, the Department of
18 Transportation, there is all kinds of
19 variances on it.
20 Because my original intent was to
21 put a sign, build up the flower bed that's
22 there and put my sign there. But I
23 couldn't. It has to go into the lot.
24 See, I can't go where you would want me to
1 be because I don't own that property. It's
2 an easement. A mutually -- I think Robin
3 can explain it.
4 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the
5 Board, it is an easement owned by the State
6 of Michigan being granted permission for use
7 by the City of Novi.
8 Mr. Durani has been trying for
9 almost a year now.
10 MR. DURANI: A year.
11 ROBIN WORKING: To try and remedy
12 the sign situation for his business and he
13 has run into one road block after another on
14 having to do with the property ownership and
15 easement issue as well as what's going on
16 with the old Novi Expo Center.
17 MR. DURANI: It is, again, a very
18 unique situation where that property was
19 there, has been taken. Now it used as a
20 reciprocal easement through Novi, through
21 the State of Michigan, through our parking,
22 through a number of things. So now we are
23 forced back into our parking lot which again
24 is even lower than that grade. So somehow we
1 have to get the sign up.
2 So, again, we talked about it. If a pole is
3 the issue what we will do is we will shroud
4 it so it doesn't look -- and eventually,
5 sure, I would like to throw some dirt around
6 there and stuff. Until I know what I'm
7 putting I can't.
8 And I think since I have been
9 there a year and a half now, I don't know if
10 any of you have been to the corner, but I
11 have made a lot of improvements over there
12 inside and out. I want to continue doing
13 it. And this is the way I have to do it.
14 It's the only place it can go.
15 And, again, there are some
16 problems with people pulling in there. I
17 did a big mistake and Alan and I worked it
18 out. That sign that was there was falling
19 apart. And I fixed that Novi Expo sign, it
20 turned out it's not mine and I couldn't do
21 it. I fixed it.
22 MEMBER FISCHER: I understand.
23 And I'll wrap up with is, I would like to
24 see it tabled. I would like to see
1 something that encompasses both of you guys
2 because I feel that you both have the same
4 And I would like to see it
5 created closer to that encompassing that you
6 have discussed.
7 ROBIN WORKING: I might point out
8 to the Board also that there is a sewer
9 improvement project that will be initiated
10 with the Novi Big Boy as well as the City of
11 Novi. I don't know if Mr. Toumi is aware of
12 that or not, what his thought was on a time
13 frame for this, but the current Petitioner
14 I think is the person that would agree to
15 the table.
16 MR. DURANI: If that's what you
17 need us to do. What I would like to see to
18 help you out, is I would like to see this go
19 and then bring him back and I will be happy
20 to come with up and then we can take my sign
21 and then figure out where his would fit on
22 that pole basically, you know, to put it
23 there and with some directional signage to
24 it, that would be fine.
1 But what I would like to do is
2 get mine moving because there is all these
3 issues going on with the City with Benny
4 over in Public Works and with Alan and it's
5 just everything has been all surrounding
6 this sign.
7 MEMBER FISCHER: Understand. And
8 I am actually going to let some other Board
9 members say their mind. I am not the only
10 guy here to make the decision and see if
11 they have any questions for you and also
12 hear their thoughts. So, thank you.
13 MR. DURANI: All right. Thanks.
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Yes, Mr.
16 MEMBER GATT: I have a question
17 for you. When you say shrouding this pole,
18 what exactly do you mean?
19 MR. DURANI: Well, it would look
20 like a it's a solid wall. I mean, it would
21 look like a solid sign. We can make it any
23 MEMBER GATT: Okay.
24 MR. DURANI: We would square it
1 off or you wouldn't just see this round
2 metal pole. So it would be square, it would
3 be hollow on the inside, but it would be
4 square or rectangle.
5 MEMBER GATT: To dress it up as
6 much as you can a pole.
7 MR. DURANI: It would be putting
8 clothes on the pole.
9 MEMBER SHROYER: Pants on the
11 MEMBER BAUER: Pants on it.
12 MR. DURANI: Pants on the pole,
13 right, or a skirt.
14 MEMBER GATT: I truly do feel for
15 you in this particular situation. I think
16 this is the best solution for the problem at
17 hand for your particular piece of property
18 now knowing that there is some State land
19 involved. And I am sure you looked into
20 every option possible beyond this to try to
21 come to a peaceful resolution for it. I
22 think that this idea due to the heavy
23 traffic volume and the possibility for a lot
24 of customers to be able to be more
1 directionally apt to figure out where this
2 place is, I think that this is a good idea.
3 I think that you should look into helping --
4 MR. DURANI: I would love to help
5 him. We talked about this a long time ago.
6 MR. TOUMI: And I tried to get
7 ahead of you today.
8 MR. DURANI: Did you?
9 MR. TOUMI: But they wouldn't
10 give me your number (unintelligible).
11 MR. DURANI: They're not supposed
12 to give my cell out. They did a good job.
13 MEMBER GATT: I think that would
14 be good for the City as a whole instead of
15 creating another big mess. In that
16 situation I would support a Motion to pass
17 this variance as requested because of the
18 unique circumstances of your property.
19 MR. DURANI: Thanks.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
21 Thank you, Mr. Gatt.
22 Yes, Mr. Shroyer, were you saying
24 MEMBER SHROYER: I don't know.
1 I'm not in favor of pole signs either. I
2 don't like the idea of putting pants on the
3 pole or whatever we were discussing as a
4 possibility. I'm a little disappointed that
5 we don't have a topography type pack of
6 information where we could see the road
7 grades or actual pictures or something.
8 I have eaten there so many times that I
9 didn't even go over to check out the site
10 because I thought I knew it by heart. But
11 it never dawned on me that it would be nine
12 feet below grade.
13 MR. DURANI: If you go by --
14 well, I know you can't now, but maybe I
15 could give you a visual. When you're at our
16 site the tops of the cars that are parked in
17 that front are at the top of the road.
18 MEMBER SHROYER: On the corner?
19 MR. DURANI: If you park in my
20 parking lot facing Novi Road, the top of the
21 car is at the road.
22 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Well,
23 that's not nine feet. Five-foot --
24 MR. DURANI: Except the grade is
1 the middle of the road, so we're talking at
2 the --
3 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, the middle
4 of the road.
5 MR. DURANI: You know what I'm
7 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand
8 that, yeah. At the end of the crown where
9 the curbing it's a lot lower, well, not a
10 lot lower --
11 MR. DURANI: Well, substantially
12 lower. When I found out it's substantially
14 MEMBER SHROYER: Because I agree
15 with one of the previous speakers, Member
16 Fischer, pole signs are -- and I would be
17 more apt to have something that would look
18 like a monument sign so that if the road
19 crowns down, if the bottom of the sign was
20 at curb level where it looked like it was a
21 monument sign, I probably would be more open
22 to that then having it --
23 MR. DURANI: It has to get above
24 the cars that park in the lot obviously and
1 above the berms to the right of this. Did
2 you go see the temporary sign I put up?
3 MEMBER SHROYER: No, I didn't.
4 That's what I said, this is one of the few I
5 didn't go to.
6 MR. DURANI: Maybe you went by it
7 and you couldn't see it because it was so
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those of you
10 that have been around long enough to know
11 that it was a ditch in the old days.
12 MR. DURANI: Yeah.
13 MEMBER SHROYER: One of the
14 things I wanted to ask is, Member Bauer, if
15 you could enlighten us as to a little bit of
16 the history of signage on Bob Evans and the
17 Expo and, of course now the Melting Pot?
18 Because it seems like from what I have heard
19 that's changed quite a few times over the
20 years. And I believe you sat on the Board
21 for a while and might be able to enlighten
22 us on that.
23 MEMBER BAUER: When Evans was in
24 there they had a sign that met the Ordinance
1 and that Melting Pot going in is going along
2 with that same sign.
3 The Expo sign is on state property. In
4 fact, you should have the State take it down
5 because we can't, they can't.
6 MR. DURANI: Is that what it is,
7 the State has to take it down? Oh.
8 MEMBER BAUER: And the Big Boy
9 used to have a sign on the far end, the
10 north end.
11 MR. DURANI: They used to have a
12 highway sign the big one with the Big Boy on
13 it. They used to have a giant sign. It's
14 ashame it's not still there or we wouldn't
15 be here --
16 (Interposing) (Unintelligible)
17 MEMBER BAUER: But that left just
18 the Expo sign. And that was for
20 MEMBER SHROYER: The entrance.
21 Thank you, I appreciate that. And that's
22 probably where I'm a little hesitant because
23 I see it as a bigger issue than Big Boy.
24 And even though I love your sign, I love
1 your new logo and everything, I think it's
3 MR. DURANI: Thank you.
4 MEMBER SHROYER: But the whole
5 issue is the entry way to your property and
6 to the Melting Pot and to whatever is going
7 to be in the Expo. And if we put a pole
8 sign up there is it going to be blocking
9 other signage?
10 MR. DURANI: Well, why don't we
11 do this to help address your issue. If you
12 grant my variance now I can start moving
13 ahead with the engineering and the things.
14 The Melting Pot can come in and make their
15 own petition because they are going to have
16 to come in and ask for a sign.
17 They can come in and make their own
18 Petition. I won't object to allowing him to
19 add on something to my pole and maybe we can
20 get some direction at that point. But at
21 least I could move forward then and get all
22 this stuff worked out where the sewer line
23 issue and the engineering issues and all
24 that because it's going to take me at least
1 30 days to do that.
2 I don't know, how long does it take for him
3 to get on the agenda?
4 ROBIN WORKING: If the Petitioner
5 needs to appear before the ZBA, the next
6 hearing he would be eligible for is in May.
7 MR. DURANI: In May. This is
9 ROBIN WORKING: The May 8th
10 hearing and the cutoff date to submit
11 information or an application and that's the
12 cutoff date, not the due date is April 9th.
13 MR. DURANI: Would you be able to
14 do that?
15 ROBIN WORKING: He would first
16 have to apply for a sign permit request and
17 see where that goes. And I'm ostensibly
18 assuming that he would be denied because he
19 would be applying for something that's not
20 allowed by Ordinance.
21 MR. DURANI: Right, because it's
22 not on his property, right?
23 ROBIN WORKING: Well, I think
24 there would probably be more than one issue.
1 MR. DURANI: Yeah, for sure that
2 would be one issue. But then in the
3 meantime I could have the engineering and
4 all that because it really wouldn't affect
5 him, because all he would be doing is adding
6 to what I have. And then he can then, we
7 can address that issue and maybe even get
8 some more direction going, but in the mean
9 time I could get that going.
10 MEMBER BAUER: May I ask him a
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead,
14 MEMBER BAUER: When is the sewer
15 going to go in? And on your property?
16 MR. DURANI: Well, what's
17 happening is to make the long and short of
18 it, my property attaches to a sewer that's
19 about a half a mile long that is, I'm the
20 only one using it for the City. They want
21 to abandon a lot of sewer line.
22 So what has to happen is they
23 will abandon that sewer and then we will
24 reattach to a different area. I met with
1 Benny McCuster and a couple people from
2 there and I'm awaiting, they are supposed to
3 get to me. They are bringing in their
4 engineers now to figure out how they want to
5 do it. And then they are going to come to
6 me. We have been working on this issue for a
7 year or so.
8 So whenever they come to me
9 that's what I'm waiting for. But, again, we
10 just met on Tuesday and where the sign is
11 going now doesn't affect them, that portion
12 of the site.
13 MEMBER BAUER: That's what I want
14 to make sure.
15 THE WITNESS: Yes, that portion.
16 What they were afraid of is the grade would
17 change there and it doesn't. They were
18 saying, well, what if we change, it doesn't
19 go over there. Because if you look at the
20 picture the sewer is actually going the
21 opposite way of where we're putting it and
22 we're abandoning what goes out to the front.
23 MEMBER BAUER: At one point you
24 said it was going to be in your parking lot
2 MR. DURANI: What?
3 MEMBER BAUER: Part of the sewer.
4 MR. DURANI: The sewer has two
5 choices. It can either go -- is that running
6 north and south -- east and west.
7 (Unintelligible) Either it's going to go
8 west or east, not north or south. It's
9 going to go west or east.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga?
11 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, there has
12 been a lot of comments about another
13 Petitioner or something coming forward and
14 another request. Right now we just have
15 this one request for this applicant before
16 you which is what you should be looking at.
17 If the Petitioner ask to table it for some
18 reason you can entertain that. Or if you
19 wanted different mark ups or something of
20 this sign you could table it. But right now
21 you should only be looking at this. And
22 then down the line you may get other
23 requests that could be affected. But right
24 now you are just looking at this particular
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: I agree a
3 hundred percent. Thank you.
4 Okay, so, what is the pleasure of
5 the Board? Do you want to deal with this
6 particular sign now? And if so lets
7 entertain a Motion regarding the case on
9 Yes, Mr. Gatt?
10 MEMBER GATT: I have a comment.
11 Other members of the Board have shown issues
12 with a pole sign and they are recommending
13 other choices, other options. I am
14 wondering what other options there are. I
15 am wondering in this particular circumstance
16 if there are any other types of options that
17 would be able to because of the grade of the
18 land and the low sites that we're dealing
19 with, that I can't think of any other way to
20 get a sign up.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is visible.
22 MEMBER GATT: That people can see
23 from the road. I know that pole signs aren't
24 necessary the greatest things you have in a
1 particular situation for the City. However,
2 in this situation the variance requested is
3 really at its heart a very very serious
4 practical difficulty because of this plot of
6 If I can understand a type of
7 monument sign or what other options there
8 might be I might be able to change their
9 minds. But in this particular situation I
10 can't see how because the spot where I put a
11 sign is owned by the State I don't
12 understand how there could be any other
14 MR. DURANI: Mr. Gatt, I can show
15 you a little picture.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Just wait for a
17 moment, sir.
18 MR. DURANI: All right.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Fischer?
20 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree that
21 there's practical difficulty. I agree that
22 the grade does not allow for a sign to be
23 perfectly just set on the ground. And that
24 there does need to be height. I definitely
1 agree with that, I guess. I'm not a sign
2 expert so I don't know. But it's always
3 been my role up here to make sure that they
4 have looked at all the opportunities. So I
5 would almost take that question you asked
6 and direct it to the sign maker and say,
7 what else have you looked at and why can't
8 do you it?
9 MR. DURANI: Let me show you a
10 picture here. That is the monument sign.
11 It's upside down. That is the monument sign.
12 That's a pole sign with a reader board. So
13 forget the reader board, we're not putting
14 that on there. If we took the pole sign and
15 see this little tiny shroud here and we just
16 made it longer here we can bring it down and
17 make it look like this. That's what I'm
18 talking about as a shroud. So actually it
19 would look like a tall monument sign. Is
20 that what you're looking for?
21 MEMBER FISCHER: And there you
22 go. That picture shows a lot to me. I
23 don't want one little
24 pole --
1 MR. DURANI: Right, that's how I
2 figured you were meaning it, so --
3 MEMBER FISCHER: And I like how
4 it looks like that shroud will kind of match
5 up with the bottom layout of the sign.
6 MR. DURANI: Yeah, we can do
8 MEMBER FISCHER: Something
9 similar --
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Was there any
11 height recommended?
12 MR. DURANI: Level with the road
13 and then you set your sign on top and you
14 got your --
15 ROBIN WORKING: Members of the
16 Board please keep in mind that we will
17 require an extraordinary variance to what is
18 allowed by the Ordinance as it is currently
20 MR. DURANI: Would that be part
21 of the sign or something?
22 ROBIN WORKING: Well, it would be
23 exceed. I will let Alan --
24 MR. AMOLSCH: The sign has got to
1 be a monument which has to serve to the
2 ground by the new Ordinance. You can't have
3 any poles, uprights or columns of any kind.
4 THE WITNESS: Either way you
5 wanted it. I can do full, I can do the
6 shroud, I can make this thing skinnier, I
7 can make it wider. Do you want that left up?
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. May I
9 suggest we stick to the Applicant's variance
10 request and move on with it if it is okay
11 with everybody.
12 So, where are we at now? He is
13 requesting a variance to involve 15 foot
14 ground pole sign. And what is the pleasure
15 of the Board?
16 MS. KRIEGER: Considering their
17 unique circumstances and the practical
18 difficulties that they have explained I
19 would not be opposed with their request.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, all right.
21 Mr. Gatt?
22 MEMBER GATT: I'm just concerned
23 about what other extreme variances there
24 would be with what was just put on?
1 MR. AMOLSCH: The height
2 variance, of course, and then like I said
3 the monument sign has to be affixed to the
4 ground with a monument under the current
5 Ordinance. So a shroud or anything like that
6 does not meet the code. So you need a
7 variance for that too.
8 (Interposing) (Unintelligible)
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Ms. Ozga?
10 MS. OZGA: Mr. Chair, I just
11 wanted to mention that if the Applicant
12 wanted to look at doing something like that
13 I believe it would take an amendment of his
14 application and renotice because that would
15 be requesting or you would be looking at
16 different variances, so it would have to be
18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All
19 right. Anybody wants to make any Motions
20 now? Or do you still want to discuss
22 MEMBER SHROYER: I have another
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, ask
1 the question.
2 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Amolsch,
3 can't we consider this a ground sign, a
4 ground monument sign and give the variance
5 to the height?
6 MR. AMOLSCH: No, it's not a
7 ground monument sign. I'll read the
8 definition in the Ordinance. A ground sign
9 means a sign not attached to any buildings
10 supported by a monument placed in the ground
11 surface such that the entire bottom of the
12 sign is affixed to the ground and is not
13 supported by poles, columns or uprights.
14 MEMBER SHROYER: That's what it
15 says here. So we would have to consider the
16 sign itself as being the bottom of the
17 illuminated portion and the shroud cannot be
18 part of the sign, that's part of the upright
20 MR. AMOLSCH: It has to be on a
21 monument affixed to the ground.
22 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you.
23 MEMBER SANGHVI:
1 MR. AMOLSCH: Correct.
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think that's
3 where we should direct our attention to.
4 Yes, Mr. Gatt.
5 MEMBER GATT: All things
6 considered, I would move to in Case: 07-008
7 filed by John Dionne of Beacon Sign Company
8 for Novi Big Boy located at 26401 Novi Road.
9 I would move to grant the variance requested
10 for the 15-foot ground pole sign based on
11 the fact of the practical difficulty of the
12 Applicant and due to the location of the
14 MEMBER FISCHER: Second.
15 MEMBER BAUER: What's the size of
16 the sign? (Unintelligible)
17 MR. DURANI: No, no, that's to
18 the top.
19 MEMBER SHROYER: To the top of
20 the sign.
21 MEMBER GATT: That's what he's
22 asking for. He doesn't need the variance
23 for the sign.
24 MEMBER SANGHVI: He just needs
1 more height.
2 Okay, so the Motion has been made.
3 MEMBER KRIEGER: Justin seconded.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second.
5 Go ahead.
6 MEMBER SHROYER: Just a comment
7 then at this point because it appears that
8 this may be approved at least I will be in
9 support of it. But I would want to continue
10 to encourage you to work with the Melting
11 Pot and perhaps come back to us with some
12 type of additional request that you may be
13 able to make everybody happy.
14 MR. DURANI: That's great. I'm
15 happy to work with him.
16 MEMBER FISCHER: And even when
17 they come back -- sorry, Mr. Chair. When
18 they come back, should they come back with
19 Melting Pot could they make any additions to
20 -- I would encourage you to talk to the City
21 to see if at that time you could look at
22 what type of enclosure. But I will be...
23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, that will
24 be a totally different issue than what we
1 are discussing tonight. So let's stick to
2 what we have, we agenda.
3 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, the
4 Petitioner currently and what was publically
5 noticed is requesting two variances. One
6 for a pole and one for a height. I do not
7 believe I heard both variance requests in
8 your Motion, Mr. Gatt. So I would ask if
9 maybe you could re-paraphrase? I know
10 probably won't be able to say it word for
11 word, but --
12 MEMBER GATT: Okay. To move to
13 grant the request for a pole measure
14 15 feet.
15 MEMBER SHROYER: Just read these
17 MEMBER GATT: Okay, okay, I
19 I would move to approve that the
20 request for a variance to allow a ground
21 sign supported by a pole.
22 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you.
23 MEMBER GATT: And also to approve
24 a variance to allow the pole to be 15 feet.
1 MEMBER BAUER: In height.
2 MEMBER GATT: In height.
3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.
4 ROBIN WORKING: It's important.
5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
7 Anybody seconded yet?
8 MEMBER FISCHER: I concur with
9 everything he just said.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. All
11 right. So Mr. Fischer has seconded.
12 Now, the Motion has been made and has been
13 seconded. If there is no further discussion
14 can you please call the roll.
16 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?
17 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
18 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?
19 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
20 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
22 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?
23 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes.
24 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?
1 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes.
2 ROBIN WORKING: And Member Bauer?
3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
4 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you and
7 good luck.
8 MR. DURANI: Thank you very much.
9 Thanks, Alan. Thanks, Robin.
10 ROBIN WORKING: Good luck.
11 MR. DURANI: Thanks.
12 ROBIN WORKING: That's step one.
13 Mr. Chair, if I may?
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead.
15 ROBIN WORKING: The Petitioner
16 for the sixth case on your agenda which
17 would be Case number: 07-006 filed by John
18 Carpenter for 1328 East Lake Drive was
19 unable to rush over here. Our building
20 representative did make a call and he and
21 his wife for whatever reason transcribed
22 March 6th to March 8th and they were going
23 to be here on March 8th. So they did
24 request that if it would be okay with the
1 Chair and with the Board that they could
2 please be heard in the April meeting.
3 MR. SOLOMON: May I respectfully
4 address the Board about that matter? I have
5 been sitting here for two hours to address
6 the Board and I have been noticed.
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Sure, we will
8 hear you out regardless.
9 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you so much.
10 My name is Robert Solomon and I live at
11 1326 --
13 MR. SOLOMON: I live at 1326 East
14 Lake Drive. I live next to the Carpenters.
15 And they are lovely people, but I
16 respectfully request that my rights and my
17 concerns be addressed as well.
18 I have lived there for over ten years and I
19 bought this house because of the view. And
20 it obviously cost a lot more to buy a house
21 on the lake with a good view than the same
22 house located somewhere else.
23 And at least a good portion of my view is to
24 the south. And the request by the
1 Carpenters to build a house that's far in
2 excess size of the Zoning Ordinances will
3 essentially destroy my view, and thus the
4 value of my property and my quality of life.
5 And, therefore, I respectfully request that
6 the Board deny any variance in the Zoning
7 Ordinance in this matter.
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
9 MR. SOLOMON: You're welcome.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Your point is
11 well taken.
12 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you. Can I
13 answer any questions about that?
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: May I request
15 you send a letter to this effect.
16 MR. SOLOMON: I did.
17 MEMBER SANGHVI: You have. We
18 have it on the record.
19 MR. SOLOMON: But I wanted to come
20 and express myself.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: I am sorry the
22 way things turned out and I appreciate your
23 spending the time here listening to other
24 exciting things.
1 MR. SOLOMON: May I respectfully
2 request the Board tell me whether or not my
3 presence will be required at the next
4 meeting regarding this matter seeing as I
5 did comply with the notice?
6 MEMBER SHROYER: Your very
7 presence here today and your presentation
8 will be taken into consideration and you
9 need not come in person yourself if you so
11 MR. SOLOMON: Thank you, sir.
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, sir.
13 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, Mr.
14 Solomon's objection is in the file.
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.
16 Thank you.
17 MEMBER SHROYER: We want you on
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right. That
20 finishes all the cases we have, right?
21 ROBIN WORKING: I'm sorry?
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is the end
23 of all the cases we have on the agenda?
24 ROBIN WORKING: That is correct.
1 MEMBER SANGHVI: So moving on to
2 the other matters. Oh, number one item on
3 other matters is the election. The Chair
4 will entertain a Motion, a proposal for
5 Chairperson, Vice-Chairperson and Secretary.
6 Yes, Mr. Fischer?
7 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Chair, first
8 off I want to say what an excellent job
9 you've done in the last year.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
11 MEMBER FISCHER: I personally
12 like your swiftness most of all, you were
13 always willing to help us move along and
14 probably got us out the earliest we've ever
16 Having said that I'd like to keep
17 the offices moving around. We have been
18 doing that for quite a few years now.
19 And with that I would nominate Mr. Shroyer
20 as Chair.
21 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, Mr.
23 Shroyer has been nominated proposed and
1 Is there any further nominations?
2 Seeing none.
4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is it acceptable
5 for you to take over the duty?
6 MEMBER SHROYER: It would be my
7 honor to follow in your foot steps.
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, we
9 declare Mr. Shroyer elected as the Chair for
10 next year.
11 MEMBER FISCHER: Should we vote?
12 ROBIN WORKING: Do we need a
13 vote, Mr. Chair?
14 MEMBER SANGHVI: He is no longer
15 elect, there is nothing to vote here. This
16 is uncontested.
17 MS. OZGA: We should still have a
19 ROBIN WORKING: Do you need to
20 entertain any other nominations for this
21 particular position?
22 MEMBER SANGHVI: We asked for any
23 other nomination but nobody else has been
24 nominated, so he has been elected unopposed.
1 Thank you.
2 MEMBER FISCHER: I believe the
3 City Attorney still would like to see a
4 vote. I see her squiggling over there,
6 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's an
7 unusual situation but I have no problems.
8 All those in favor of selecting Mr. Shroyer
9 as the Chair for next year please signify by
10 saying aye.
11 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed
13 same sign. Deafening silence. Thank you.
14 Next one now for the Vice-Chairperson. All
15 right, go ahead.
16 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Chair, I
17 would like to nominate Justin Fischer as our
18 Vice-Chair for next year.
19 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, a
21 nomination has been made and seconded. And
22 Mr. Justin Fischer is the Vice-Chair.
23 Is Mr. Fischer agreeable?
24 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes, sir.
1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, he's
2 agreeable. Both the Chair. Any more
3 nominations? None coming, none forthcoming?
4 So all those in favor of electing Mr. Justin
5 Fischer as the Vice-Chair please signify by
6 saying aye?
7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed
9 same sign.
10 Now the secretary's position.
11 May I hear a nomination for secretary? Yes?
12 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to
13 nominate our newest member, Mr. Bobby Gatt.
14 MEMBER FISCHER: Second.
16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Gatt has
17 been nominated and seconded. Is Mr. Gatt
19 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
20 MEMBER SANGHVI: He's available.
21 Are there any further nominations? Seeing
22 none. All those in favor of electing Mr.
23 Gatt as the Secretary of the Board for next
24 year please signify by saying aye.
1 BOARD MEMBERS Aye.
2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Those opposed
3 same sign.
4 The elections are over. Congratulations and
5 thank you very much for relieving me.
6 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, may I
7 please just review this to make sure that I
8 have it correctly?
9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes.
10 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Shroyer will
11 be the new ZBA Board Chair. Mr. Fischer,
12 Member Fischer will be the new ZBA
13 Vice-Chair. And Member Bobby Gatt will the
14 ZBA recording secretary?
15 MEMBER SANGHVI: That is correct.
16 ROBIN WORKING: ZBA secretary.
17 (Interposing) (Unintelligible).
18 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you.
19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Now, are we
20 going to talk about the By-Law updates?
21 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, it was
22 discussed that at the time when you were
23 provided dates to choose from for the ZBA
24 training schedule that we build in a time
1 frame also to look at the existing by-laws
2 which were adopted in 1998 for any updates
3 that may be needed. So it was just a
4 reminder that you keep that in mind.
5 You all have a copy of the by-laws that I
6 provided for you two months ago. And if you
7 would like to review those and if you see
8 any changes that you think may be needed and
9 let me know ahead of time that might be
10 better for Mr. Schultz and the office to
11 come up with ideas of how to have you come
12 up with a language for those by-laws.
13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.
14 Anything else for the good of the
16 Yes, sir?
17 MEMBER FISCHER: My last --
18 Glendas, I wanted to discuss that.
19 I don't know if anyone on the Board has
20 driven by lately, but the fence is in
21 essence is in ruins. And I remember
22 specifically telling them. I told them
23 about a little tool you can get that will
24 crimp it and you can lock it in and it
1 shouldn't fall out of the rails that we
2 requested. So I would ask that maybe if Ms.
3 Working would be willing to send a note
4 of --
5 MEMBER SHROYER: Concern.
6 MEMBER FISCHER: -- concern from
7 the Zoning Board. And I believe we also
8 have that, I would also state in that note
9 that we are able to bring them back
10 according to our Motion that we made. This
11 is a warning. If we don't see this cleaned
12 up soon that we will request their presence
13 in front of us.
14 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Fox and I
15 will speak with the building official
16 tomorrow at your request regarding the fence
17 situation at Glendas and I will keep the
18 board apprised.
19 MEMBER FISCHER: I knew you
20 would, you are the greatest.
21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. If
22 that brings to an end this evening's
23 meeting, I want to thank you all for your
24 very great cooperation. I have enjoyed
1 working with you all and continue to do so
2 in the future. Thank you very much.
3 And I will entertain a Motion to adjourn.
4 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to
7 MEMBER SANGHVI: All those in
8 favor of the Motion to adjourn say aye.
9 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye.
10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Good bye. Thank
12 (The meeting was adjourned
13 at 9:42 p.m.)
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify
5 that I have recorded stenographically the
6 proceedings had and testimony taken in the
7 above-entitled matter at the time and place
8 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further
9 certify that the foregoing transcript,
10 consisting of (112) typewritten pages, is a
11 true and correct transcript of my said
12 stenographic notes.
19 Mona L. Talton,
20 Certified Shorthand Reporter
22 March 30, 2007