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View Action Summary for this meeting


Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, February 11, 2007.

Mav Sanghvi, Chairman
Gerald Bauer
Justin Fischer
Linda Krieger
Tim Shroyer

Don Saven, Building Department
Thomas Schultz, City Attorney
Alan Amolsch, Ordinance Enforcement
Robin Working, ZBA Recording Secretary

Mona L. Talton, Certified Shorthand Reporter.

1 Novi, Michigan

2 Tuesday, February 6, 2007

3 7:30 p.m.

4 - - - - - -

5 MEMBER SANGHVI: I'd like to call

6 to order the February 2007 meeting of the

7 City of Novi Zoning Board of Appeals.

8 Would you please rise and join me

9 in the pledge of allegiance.

10 BOARD MEMBERS: I pledge

11 allegiance to the flag of the United States

12 of America and to the Republic for which it

13 stands, one nation under God indivisible

14 with liberty and justice for all.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

16 Ms. Working, will you please call the roll.

17 ROBIN WORKING: Member Canup?

18 Member Fischer?


20 ROBIN WORKING: Member Gatt?

21 Member Bauer?

22 MEMBER BAUER: Present.

23 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?




1 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?


3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?


5 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, we

6 have five members present. Two members

7 absent.

8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. We do

9 have a quorum.

10 ROBIN WORKING: We do have a

11 quorum.

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: And the meeting

13 is now in session.

14 I would like to go over the rules

15 of conduct and you can find them in the

16 agenda which is up front.

17 Zoning Board of Appeals is a

18 Hearing Board empowered by the Novi City

19 Charter to hear the appeals seeking

20 variances from the application of the Novi

21 Zoning Ordinances.

22 It takes a vote of at least four

23 members to approve a variance, a variance

24 request. And a vote of a majority of the



1 members present to deny a variance.

2 Tonight we have Board quorum and

3 so all decisions made today could be final.

4 Now, let's look at the agenda.

5 Are there any changes today, Ms. Working?

6 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chairperson,

7 the December 5th, 2006 minutes will be

8 available for approval next month at the

9 March meeting. So we will take that up.

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: So, we will not

11 be dealing with that. Okay, we can delete

12 that.

13 Seeing none, other than that, all

14 right, Chair will entertain a Motion.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to

16 approve as amended.


18 MEMBER SANGHVI: The agenda has

19 been amended. All those in favor of

20 approving the agenda please signify by

21 saying aye.


23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, we have an

24 agenda.



1 Now, at this point the meeting is

2 open for public remarks section. Is there

3 anyone in the audience who would like to

4 address the Board to make any kind of


6 MEMBER SHROYER: We still need to

7 approve January meeting.

8 MEMBER SANGHVI: We have January

9 meeting?

10 ROBIN WORKING: We received

11 January meeting.

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: You have January

13 meeting. I beg your pardon, I stand

14 corrected.

15 Okay, then let's go to the

16 January meeting. Is there any amendment,

17 additions, deletions to the January meeting?

18 MEMBER BAUER: He has.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Go ahead, sir.

20 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you, Mr.

21 Chair. I would like to make some changes

22 that are errors in the minutes.

23 On Page 19 Line 23 the word

24 dollars should be the word feet, f-e-e-t.



1 On Page 20 Line 7 the word is

2 concern not certain.

3 On Page 43 Line 17 the

4 unintelligible word is maximum.

5 On Page 45 Line 2, it was asked

6 of and stated by anyone, not Mr. Venables.

7 I'm sorry, it was stated by myself, not Mr.

8 Venables.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay. Very good.

10 Any other changes? Seeing none.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to

12 approve as a amended.

13 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: The Motion has

15 been made and seconded to approve the

16 minutes.

17 All those in favor please signify

18 by saying aye.


20 MEMBER SANGHVI: All those

21 opposed same sign.

22 Now we come to the public remarks

23 section. Is there anyone in the audience

24 who wishes to make comments not pertaining



1 to any matter on the agenda tonight? Please

2 come forward and say so.

3 Seeing none, we close the public

4 remarks section.


6 And this brings us to the first

7 case on the agenda. And that is Case

8 number: 06-082 filed by Adil Al-Sandouk for

9 2280 Austin Drive.

10 Is Mr. Al-Sandouk here?

11 MR. AL-SANDOUK: Yes, sir.

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Will you please

13 come to the podium. State your name and

14 address. Be sworn in by our Secretary and

15 then make your presentation, please. Thank

16 you.

17 MR. AL-SANDOUK: Yes, my name is

18 Adil Al-Sandouk. And I reside at 2280

19 Austin Drive, Novi, Michigan 48377.

20 MEMBER BAUER: Would you raise

21 your right hand, please.

22 Do you swear or affirm to tell

23 the truth regarding Case: 06-082?

24 MR. AL-SANDOUK: Yes, sir.



1 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.

2 Go ahead.


4 MR. AL-SANDOUK: I got some

5 picture. Can I pass it to you?

6 MEMBER FISCHER: If you want to

7 put it on the overhead there it will pop up

8 on the screen behind us.


10 audience at home can see it as well.


12 MR. AL-SANDOUK: This is the back

13 side of the house at 2280 Austin Drive. And

14 I am requesting an addition of 88 square

15 feet to the first floor.

16 That corner there, it's the L

17 shape that I mentioned is 11 by 8. The 11

18 is by the window so the total square footage

19 is 88 square feet.

20 And also I want to put a second

21 floor on the top of that, construct a new

22 floor on the existing house. The square

23 footage is going to be 1,080 square feet.

24 And this addition will improve and enhance



1 the property value of the surrounding area

2 and will not have negative impact from the

3 neighborhood.

4 Also, I just want to mention that

5 the house I live in right now is a small

6 house and I have hardship and I need the

7 room. That's why I am requesting this three

8 side variance. Thank you.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.

10 Is there anybody in the public who would

11 like to address the Board regarding this

12 case?

13 Seeing none, I would like to

14 inform the Board that 14 notices were

15 mailed. There were two approvals and one

16 objection.

17 MEMBER BAUER: One objection.

18 Mary McDermitt, 2297 Austin.

19 Mr. Harry Lewis, approval.

20 Mr. Mallett (ph), approval.

21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

22 Building Department?

23 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out, if

24 you look at the plot plan, basically where



1 the addition is going -- where the addition

2 is going it is basically filling in that

3 little L which is towards the rear of the

4 building. And he is just basically going

5 straight up from that point from what is

6 existing on the property as it exist now.

7 The increase in square footage as

8 you take a look at it for the addition is

9 based upon he will be setback farther at the

10 farthest point of that addition than what is

11 shown on that particular property line.

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

13 Open it up for the Board members. Yes, Mr.

14 Shroyer?

15 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Al-Sandouk,

16 could you come back up to the podium please.

17 I just basically had one question.

18 Is there a homeowners association there?

19 MR. AL-SANDOUK: No, sir.

20 MEMBER SHROYER: There is not?


22 MEMBER SHROYER: The objection --

23 I guess I got two questions. The objection

24 that was stated, is that a direct neighbor



1 or is that one several houses away?



4 MR. AL-SANDOUK: It's about one,

5 two, three, four houses, the fourth house

6 far away from me.

7 MEMBER SHROYER: And you have

8 talked directly to the neighbors on each

9 side of you?

10 MR. AL-SANDOUK: I talked, they

11 didn't object. And they didn't have the

12 time to come over here and talk to you about

13 it. But I believe they send you letters.

14 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Thank

15 you.

16 MR. AL-SANDOUK: Yes, sir.

17 MEMBER SHROYER: That's all I

18 have, Mr. Chair.


20 Fischer?

21 MEMBER FISCHER: Sir, I have a

22 couple questions.

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Don't go. You

24 should stay here.



1 MEMBER FISCHER: I think mine

2 should be relatively quick as well.

3 What is the square footage

4 currently, do you know?

5 MR. AL-SANDOUK: The house, about

6 850 square feet, somewhere at that

7 neighborhood.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: And the addition

9 will be?

10 MR. AL-SANDOUK: The addition,

11 the L shape is going to be 88 square feet.

12 And the second floor is going to be 1,008.

13 It's a flat roof, so it would be easier to

14 construct the second floor. There is no

15 rafters to remove.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: And, Mr. Saven,

17 I think where you were -- kind of your

18 comment, I just want to make sure I'm on the

19 same level playing field as to what you

20 said. You said that the largest variance is

21 being requested is still less than -- can

22 you say it one more time for me?

23 MR. SAVEN: Okay, basically where

24 the addition is being put on for the



1 addition on the first floor level.


3 MR. SAVEN: Where that setback is

4 is at that farthest point for that setback

5 for that side. So by putting on the

6 addition and the building being as skewed as

7 it is, the setbacks are going to be greater

8 than what's there now.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Looking at

10 the picture I thought that's what you said

11 and I had noticed that, but I just wanted

12 that clarified one more time.

13 Given those facts regarding the other side

14 yard variances that are currently on this

15 property as well as the fact that it's not

16 going any further than the deck or further

17 than the existing house as I can see it from

18 the photos, he won't be obscuring any other

19 person's view.

20 So I am willing to approve these

21 requests because I feel that they are of

22 minimal -- they're not going to hurt the

23 neighborhood in any large proportion.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.



1 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, Mr.

2 Chair.

3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Anybody else?

4 Seeing none.

5 Yes, Ms. Krieger?

6 MEMBER KRIEGER: I also will

7 support with the additional information

8 received besides what we have here. I'm in

9 support of it.

10 MEMBER SHROYER: Would you like a

11 Motion, Mr. Chair?

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Sure, go ahead.

13 MEMBER SHROYER: In Case number:

14 06-082 filed by Adil Al-Sandouk for 2280

15 Austin Drive I move to approve all three

16 variance requests. Whereas number one, said

17 variances have not set or moved any part of

18 the additions any closer to the existing

19 neighboring properties than the pre-existing

20 structure.

21 Number two, structural

22 improvement should add value and aesthetics

23 to the neighbored.

24 Number three, that due to the



1 narrowness of the property, other options

2 could create even greater variance requests

3 and non-conformities.

4 And number four, no objections

5 were received by the bordering property

6 owners.

7 MEMBER BAUER: Second the Motion.

8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Motion has been

9 made and seconded.

10 Is there any further discussion?

11 MEMBER FISCHER: Just in the

12 cases that we have seen I would really like

13 it if we could make part of our findings the

14 view from the back of the house obstructing

15 anyone else's view, any bordering neighbors

16 as well.

17 MEMBER SHROYER: Of the lake?


19 MEMBER SHROYER: Sure, I'd be

20 happy to add that as an addendum.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: Perfect. And

22 whatever Mr. Schultz wants.


24 Schultz?



1 MR. SCHULTZ: If I may through

2 the Chair, very good findings. I'm just

3 wondering if the maker of the Motion would

4 add the reference to the practical

5 difficulty standard. And I am assuming that

6 it's the lot width, the minimum of 40 feet

7 that's driving the Motion.

8 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes, I talked

9 about the narrowness of the property, but we

10 can add that verbiage as well if you prefer?

11 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you.

12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good.

13 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: So the Motion

15 has been made amended and seconded. And

16 everything is in order.

17 And no further discussion. Ms.

18 Working, will you please call the roll.

19 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?


21 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?


23 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?




1 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?


3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?


5 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes

6 5-0.

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Congratulations.

8 Good luck.

9 MR. AL-SANDOUK: Thank you very

10 much.

11 MR. FISCHER: I thought it was a

12 good Motion.

13 (Interposing )(Unintelligible)

14 MEMBER BAUER: You had it all.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: He had it all.

16 Right, that's good.


18 Moving along. Our second case

19 this evening is Case number: 06-083 filed

20 by Steven Johnson of Novi Retail LLC for

21 Shoppes at the Trail located at 31172 Beck

22 Road.

23 Steven Johnson of Novi Retail

24 LLC, is requesting one sign variance to



1 erect an additional 30 square foot business

2 center sign on a vacant parcel of land

3 located on Pontiac Trail in front of the

4 Shoppes on the Trail Shopping Center.

5 Is Mr. Johnson here? Will you please come

6 to the podium. Identify yourself, state

7 your name and address and be sworn in by our

8 secretary and then proceed. Thank you.

9 MR. JOHNSON: Steve Johnson 516

10 Hamilton Court, Wixom, Michigan.

11 MEMBER BAUER: Raise your right

12 hand. Do you swear or affirm to the truth

13 regarding Case: 06-083?

14 MR. JOHNSON: I do.

15 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Please

16 go ahead.

17 MR. JOHNSON: We were -- or I was

18 in front of you a few months ago and

19 requesting this variance because of the

20 corner lot and the proximity of the

21 property. And at the time it was discovered

22 that we needed to get an easement agreement

23 from one of the out lot people which has

24 taken us considerably longer than we



1 anticipated, but we do finally have that.

2 It was recorded yesterday at the County, so

3 the easement is completely taken care of at

4 this point.

5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

6 Is there anybody in the audience who would

7 like to address the Board regarding this

8 case?

9 Seeing none, Building Department?

10 MR. AMOLSCH: Just to refresh the

11 Board's memory, the reason this is here is

12 because this is a business center sign going

13 on a vacant parcel of land with no

14 businesses on it.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

16 Eighty notices were mailed and xero

17 approval. One objection.

18 Is this the same person who had

19 previously objected?

20 MEMBER BAUER: Objection. Unless

21 we Novi Family Practice at 38800 Beck Road,

22 Novi, Michigan are granted the same sign

23 variance. It's by Deborah Bennett, D.O.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.



1 Secretary. I will open it to the Board for

2 discussion.

3 Yes, Mr. Bauer?

4 MEMBER BAUER: Mr. Johnson

5 brought in what we requested. And that was

6 the only thing that was holding us up. And

7 I would go along with his request.

8 MR. SANGHVI: Anybody else?

9 Would you like to make a Motion

10 to that affect?

11 MEMBER BAUER: Sure. In Case:

12 06-083 grant the Petitioner's request for an

13 outside sign for the Trail Shopping Center

14 additional identification.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. The

16 Motion has been made.


18 MEMBER SANGHVI: And seconded by

19 Ms. Krieger.

20 Any further? Yes, Mr. Schultz?

21 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you, Mr.

22 Chair. We did through Mr. Saven's office

23 and Ms. Working get a copy of the sign

24 easement that I think the gentleman referred



1 to. And I just want to make sure that the

2 record is clear that while it certainly

3 looks like a perfectly valid agreement and

4 authorizes the sign to be there, it does

5 have a provision that says that the right to

6 have the sign is only to the extent that it

7 does not adversely affect the signage rights

8 of the vacant parcel. And that if it does

9 affect those rights, then it automatically

10 terminates.

11 So I think that you might want to

12 consider that your Motion granting a

13 variance would similarly terminate to the

14 extent that the right under this easement

15 automatically terminates. In other words,

16 the variance if that's the Board's pleasure

17 is appropriate, but it has to cease or

18 automatically terminate the variance that is

19 to the extent this easement terminates. And

20 that we -- and I'm not sure exactly how we

21 would get notice of that, but I think if the

22 Motion just indicates that the City is to be

23 notified if this easement ceases to exist,

24 so we kind of give that affirmative



1 obligation on the part of the property

2 owner.

3 So there is nothing wrong with

4 granting the variance, but I think just

5 recognize it may not be a permanent

6 variance. As long as the petitioner knows

7 that and we have some mechanism in place to

8 incorporate that into the Motion.

9 MEMBER BAUER: I accept your

10 (unintelligible).

11 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you.

12 MEMBER BAUER: Brought to light.

13 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you.

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: So you want

15 contingent upon the continued easement

16 permission?

17 MR. SCHULTZ: That's good

18 language. Thank you.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you.

20 Ms. Krieger, do you accept the amendment?


22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

23 Yes, Mr. Fischer?

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Are you also



1 open for some amendments regarding findings

2 of fact as well? Would you be open to

3 including the fact that the Board has found

4 in previous discussion that this is a large

5 retail development. That it's a corner

6 piece of property and that these signify our

7 idea of a practical difficulty in this case?

8 MEMBER BAUER: Absolutely.


10 MEMBER FISCHER: So easy going.

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Both of you

12 accept that friendly amendment. Thank you.

13 The Motion has been made and amended and

14 amended and then amended and it's all set

15 now.

16 Any further discussion on this

17 topic?

18 MEMBER BAUER: It's closed.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Seeing none, Ms.

20 Working, will you please call the roll.

21 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?


23 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?




1 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?


3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?


5 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?


7 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes

8 5-0.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. You

10 can go and get your permit.

11 MR. JOHNSON: Robin, did you want

12 a copy of the recording?

13 ROBIN WORKING: You have the

14 recorded copy?

15 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.

16 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you, yes.

17 MR. SCHULTZ: I can give you my

18 copy.

19 ROBIN WORKING: You don't have a

20 recorded copy.

21 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, this is the

22 recorded copy.

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. Okay.

24 Thank you.



1 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.

2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Moving on.


4 Case number three is Case number:

5 06-100 filed by John Dionne of Beacon Sign

6 Company for TFC -- TCF, I beg your pardon --

7 Bank located at 47500 Grand River Avenue.

8 John Dionne of Beacon Sign Company is

9 requesting one 24 square foot and one 41.6

10 square foot wall sign variance for the

11 placement of the two additional wall signs

12 for TCF Bank located at 47500 Grand River

13 Avenue in the West Market Square Shopping

14 Center.

15 Is the applicant here? Would you

16 please come to the podium and identify

17 yourselves. If you are an attorney you

18 don't need to be sworn in. I don't know

19 why, but that's the rule.

20 MEMBER BAUER: We don't have to

21 swear at you.

22 MR. CLARK: I am no attorney. I

23 am just a sign guy. My name is Pat Clark.

24 I am with Beacon Sign Company, 19460 Mount



1 Elliott, Detroit. And with me tonight are

2 two folks from TCF Bank.

3 MS. NAGLEY: My name is Susan

4 Nagley, I am the branch manager at the

5 location on Grand River and Beck Road. My

6 residence is 919 Boston Boston Boulevard,

7 Howell, Michigan.

8 MR. WALTERSON: And I am Jim

9 Walterson. I am vice-president of our

10 facilities here in Michigan for TCF Bank.

11 You want my home or my -- either address?

12 MEMBER BAUER: Take your pick.

13 MR. WALTERSON: 17440 College

14 Parkway, Livonia.

15 MEMBER BAUER: Would you all

16 three raise your hand to be sworn in.

17 Do you solemnly swear or affirm that you

18 will tell the truth regarding case: 06-100?

19 MS. NAGLEY: I do.

20 MR. CLARK: I do.

21 MR. WALTERSON: We do.

22 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Go

23 ahead.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right.



1 Please proceed.

2 MR. CLARK: I would like to set

3 the stage just a little bit by pointing out

4 that what we are asking for are two signs

5 small, not large because this bank branch

6 has a peculiar location in a corner, kind a

7 back corner, if you will, of a shopping

8 center. And although most people can find

9 the shopping center it appears, and we will

10 talk about this, they can't find the bank.

11 So when you approach the shopping center,

12 particularly from the south where a lot of

13 people do, you can get into the shopping

14 center itself and drive around in circles

15 and not really see where the bank is over

16 there. There is a lack of identification.

17 And, again, we have one sign on the building

18 now as I am sure you have seen and we have

19 put up a couple small banners that are

20 exactly the size of the signs that we are

21 asking for and we think that those would be

22 the minimum amount of additional signage to

23 help people find the branch.

24 And I would like to let these folks present



1 some information to you that will hopefully

2 substantiate the need for this.

3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

4 MS. NAGLEY: Thank you. I have

5 been at the branch for a year and a half

6 now. And during the year and a half every

7 day we get phone calls of people driving up

8 and down Grand River, we can't find you.

9 Your address is Grand River, we can't find

10 you. Where are you? Because we are set back.

11 I have people walking or driving around

12 constantly. They have come over the bridge

13 with that beautiful new Beck Road bridge and

14 they drive right by us and not see us and

15 get on Grand River and get lost. I don't

16 know how much business, I am sure there is a

17 lot I have lost that have ended up stumbling

18 into another branch bank saying can't find

19 the TCF Bank so, you are here, I can see

20 your sign so let me come in and do business

21 with you.

22 And it is a lot of complaints

23 from customers on this. As some I have

24 already faxed over, many of customers as



1 well as everybody in the area, the shops

2 have all approved. I don't think I have any

3 that have not approved.

4 Mr. Walterson also have some

5 statistics from other branches that have

6 been opened which we call de novo branches.

7 How their numbers are far greater than my

8 numbers are representing in account base,

9 deposit base as well.

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you.

11 MR. WALTERSON: Thank you. Yeah,

12 I got some numbers. Basically TCF was real

13 happy to get into Novi. We were just

14 excited. This is one of the de novos that we

15 wanted to start. We have been pretty

16 aggressive in this campaign. Over the last

17 five years we have opened 24 new branches

18 that basically are just like the one here.

19 And of those 24 branches 15 have been open

20 approximately as long or longer than our one

21 in Novi. They have been open basically --

22 this one has been open 33 months. We have

23 got 15 of those 24 that have been open at

24 least 27 months to five years.



1 In any event, okay, two of our primary

2 tracking criteria. As to these new branches

3 successes are the number of checking

4 accounts we open and the total deposits.

5 It's a very typical thing for any branch and

6 the relationships between the two.

7 The information I wish to present to you is

8 based on proprietary numbers, so what I

9 would like to do is present percentages

10 compared to the other de novos we have

11 opened. And if there are any questions on

12 how I analyze this I will be glad to answer

13 them, but I can't give specific numbers out.

14 First comparison is two branches opened

15 within six months after we opened Novi and

16 that was our Westland and Southgate

17 branches. And the number of checking

18 accounts at the average of those two

19 branches, Novi is 37 percent below that

20 average. And is 36 percent below the

21 average deposits for those two branches that

22 have been opened in a shorter, less time

23 than this branch.

24 Then three branches, our Fraser,



1 Warren and Livonia branch, and Livonia is

2 our second worst branch, by the way. Their

3 average, Novi is 43 percent below their

4 number of checking accounts and 28 percent

5 below the number of average deposits.

6 In terms of all the 15 branches that have

7 been open more than two and a half years,

8 Novi is 42 percent below every new branch we

9 have opened at the three-year mark. And

10 32 percent below the number of deposits at

11 the three-year mark.

12 So, summarizing all those

13 comparisons, basically Novi is 40 percent

14 below the number of checking accounts we

15 have opened and 32 percent below the deposit

16 base of every new branch we have opened.

17 And I understand that there was 18 months of

18 construction on Beck Road which now looks

19 wonderful, but we have had 15 months since

20 that time. And basically when the

21 construction was concluded we have had that

22 15 months to look at our deposits and

23 checking and so forth. And it's gotten

24 better, but we are still, it only improved



1 by five percent. So we are still 40 percent

2 below in checking accounts and 32 percent

3 below in deposit base.

4 In terms of the 24 branches that

5 we have opened in the last five years, our

6 typical sign package is either a monument

7 sign or a pylon sign in front with two to

8 four wall signs. This branch and our second

9 worst branch, if you will, in deposits and

10 so on are the only two branches we have that

11 only have one sign with no monument, no

12 pylon or anything. So there is a direct

13 correlation we feel between the two.

14 And the other comment I would

15 like to make is that I think that the signs

16 we do are very professional. They are

17 non-obtrusive and they help us draw

18 business. It's a key to our business and

19 that's what we are hoping to open up the

20 door for tonight.

21 So with that said, I thank you.

22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. Is

23 there anybody in the audience who would like

24 to make a comment about this case?



1 Seeing none, Mr. Amolsch?

2 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments, sir.

3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, Mr. Saven.

4 MR. SAVEN: I would just like to

5 bring up at the previous meeting when they

6 were before us there were several issues

7 that were brought up as to what they could

8 possibly do to prove to the Board that the

9 hardship does exist.

10 One of the things was certainly

11 to get with the owner of the complex to see

12 whether or not he would be willing to put up

13 a sign out in the front like a ground pole

14 sign, this type of thing. This was not an

15 option. They couldn't do this.

16 The second thing was to come up

17 with another measure to determine what their

18 hardship could be. A lot of it had to do

19 with exactly what they are telling you today

20 in terms of where that hardship was in terms

21 of their business. And this was brought up

22 by Mr. Canup, I believe, in the previous,

23 one of the previous meetings.

24 The last thing I would just point



1 out to you is that we have had some very

2 similar cases in this area too that has

3 basically a similar approach to what they

4 are trying to provide for right now.

5 Bearing in mind that this is a single

6 occupancy building that is snuggled in the

7 far corner of the complex and, yes, it does

8 have a Grand River address. I addressed it

9 off of Grand River, I'm sorry, it was one of

10 the things that kept the flow going in that

11 particular complex. So that in case an

12 emergency vehicle had to do this they had to

13 be egressed off of Grand River.

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.

15 Saven.

16 I should inform the Board that

17 there were 15 approvals and zero objections.

18 And I think there is an error on this. I am

19 sure there were more than eight notices that

20 were sent.

21 MEMBER BAUER: We don't need to

22 read them.

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: But we don't

24 need to read everybody's name. There are



1 quite a few of them.

2 So I open it up to the Board

3 Members.

4 Yes, Mr. Fischer?

5 MEMBER FISCHER: I personally am

6 very glad that you brought in all those

7 statistics. I think that that kind of

8 paints quite a picture in itself. We

9 oftentimes ask for something or make our

10 comments and we don't give the best

11 indication of what would prove a certain

12 point to us. And I think this is a good

13 case to use if we do have any more cases

14 where we have asked for give us better

15 evidence. These guys did a very good job of

16 doing that.

17 And now I would like to get a

18 little more into some of the statistics,

19 some of the questions I had. One thing I

20 found interesting is that you only look at

21 deposits in checking accounts. Do you look

22 at withdrawals at all?

23 MR. WALTERSON: Of course, of

24 course.




2 seriousness, in the statistics that you

3 showed us does that include all the new

4 banks that you have opened, branches that

5 you have opened in recent months?

6 MR. WALTERSON: The 24 in the

7 last --

8 well --

9 MS. NAGLEY: In the State of

10 Michigan.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: Please step up

12 to the microphone too.

13 MR. WALTERSON: In the State of

14 Michigan the 15 that have been opened in the

15 last 27 months which is close to the 27

16 months or longer over the last, so they have

17 been open five years to 27 months.


19 MR. WALTERSON: And the stats are

20 based on all of them at approximately three

21 years which is where Novi is.

22 MEMBER FISCHER: I just know when

23 my boss ask for something usually I'm

24 picking certain ones that I want to prove my



1 point. I just want to make sure that you are

2 using all encompassing sample as opposed to

3 just a certain few.


5 MEMBER FISCHER: When you were

6 discussing average deposits and you gave

7 certain percentages, were those based off of

8 dollar amounts or the numbers of actual

9 transactions?

10 MR. WALTERSON: Dollar amounts.

11 And those are approximately 32 percent less

12 than the average of those 15. So for every

13 $10,000 we are only taking in 68,000 -- or

14 6,800 of those 15.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: I got you. You

16 had gone into some of the signage packages

17 that you have at these other branches that

18 you gathered these statistics to and it

19 doesn't sound like you are asking for as

20 much as you have at those branches. So my

21 question is, how confident are you in the

22 package that you have offered today? That's

23 the first part my question.

24 And the second part is, what will



1 happen if you still don't see the statistics

2 go to the levels you would like? Will you

3 be back before us? Or what is your thought

4 process on that?

5 MR. WALTERSON: Today, today, we

6 will be thrilled to go through today. I

7 have no -- we have no thoughts about

8 tomorrow at this point. We would love a

9 monument or a pylon sign, however, right now

10 we want enough identity to get that draw in.

11 MS. NAGLEY: If you actually look

12 at the angle, the building is on an angle,

13 so the three signs would encompass a very

14 large triangle which would pretty much suit

15 what our needs are. If you have ever driven

16 around I think one of the most amazing

17 things I found was at the bridge opening I

18 was up there, we were handing out tickets to

19 come down to the branch for a coffee to warm

20 up and cake. If any of you were on the

21 bridge that day it was a very cold and windy

22 day. And I had more people, even the city

23 manager looked at me and said, where is your

24 branch? I says, see that building right



1 there? He goes, that's a bank? He couldn't

2 tell it was a bank.

3 So to hit those three angles

4 because the way the branch physically is

5 angled should encompass where any of the

6 four roads where you are coming from.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: So you do sound

8 pretty confident in the package that you

9 have actually designed at this point at this

10 time.

11 MS. NAGLEY: I do.

12 MR. FISCHER: I just want to make

13 sure we're not going to get in a situation

14 where 15 months down the road there are a

15 couple more signs being requested. And just

16 wanted to make sure that this is a package

17 that you seem to like and that you think

18 will work.

19 I guess my invitation to the

20 bridge opening got lost in the mail then?

21 MS. NAGLEY: I'm sorry.

22 MEMBER FISCHER: I will take you

23 up on the coffee and cake though some other

24 time.



1 MS. NAGLEY: Any time.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: As far as some

3 of the other locations you mention in the

4 sign packages what can you tell me about

5 their locations as far as thoroughfares? Is

6 it similar? What I am actually asking is, it

7 sounds like they're even in worse locations

8 from a thoroughfare standpoint than this

9 branch, but they still have better

10 statistics?

11 MS. NAGLEY: Some of them can be

12 in the middle of the block. So if you are

13 looking at a location that's in the middle

14 of a block and they have the signage around

15 and they are still accommodating them,

16 whereas we are in a way on an angle in the

17 corner, but you have the expressway coming

18 in and you drive right by us. You have the

19 intersection coming in. You have the

20 buildings blocking us but we have the one

21 sign almost facing the intersection.

22 The parking lot coming in there is nothing.

23 They don't know who we are. But they can

24 tell it is a bank at that point. So if you



1 look at other locations they don't have

2 necessarily the exposure we have, but they

3 also don't have the hindrances we are also

4 experiencing.

5 MR. FISCHER: Got you.

6 MR. WALTERSON: Just to add to

7 that to give you an example, our Northville

8 branch as you drive down Six Mile we are in

9 the gully, it's a good ten-foot, 12-foot

10 drop and yet we do have the monument sign

11 out plus other signs and it's far enough off

12 the highway, but it's a bad location to be

13 honest about it. And we have had some

14 problems there as well, but we have got the

15 signage that does get people in there.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Perfect.

17 You answered the majority of my questions

18 and they all seem to kind of point in the

19 same direction.

20 The Petitioner seemed to have

21 done what we asked. We said wait for the

22 construction to get done. See if things

23 improve and if they don't we want to hear

24 evidence that they didn't. So, given my



1 questions, given what they presented, I feel

2 that they have met the standard of practical

3 difficulty in this case and I am willing to

4 support their request.

5 MEMBER BAUER: I will second

6 that.

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. Are

8 you making a Motion?

9 MEMBER FISCHER: I would move

10 that in Case number: 06-100 filed by John

11 Dionne of Beacon Sign Company for TCF Bank

12 located at 47500 Grand River Road -- Avenue,

13 that we grant the Petitioner's request given

14 the hindrances mentioned of practical

15 difficulty that the Petitioner has

16 established in their statements and the

17 evidence they have provided in the

18 statistics of nearby branches that all point

19 to meeting that burden of proof.

20 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

22 Motion has been made and seconded. Any

23 further discussion?

24 Yes, Mr. Shroyer?



1 MEMBER SHROYER: I'm sorry, Mr.

2 Chair, I have several questions.


4 MEMBER SHROYER: Because I wasn't

5 on the Board when you guys came in front of

6 it in 2005. So the first question would be,

7 what kind of sign and location was requested

8 back in January of '05?

9 MR. CLARK: We requested one sign

10 at that point in time at the end of the

11 teller canopy there is a triangular peak, if

12 you will, and at that time we felt that that

13 was the best location for an additional

14 sign. With the Beck Road changes and

15 whatnot and not being able to find it from

16 the main area of the shopping center we have

17 rethought that and what we have proposed is

18 what we think will do the job.

19 MEMBER SHROYER: So what the

20 Board was asking you to come back with was

21 stats and everything after it was all built

22 really isn't even asking for a sign at a

23 same location. You are asking for two

24 additional locations but not that one?



1 MR. CLARK: Correct.

2 MEMBER SHROYER: And to the man

3 with the numbers. Was it Mr. Walterson?


5 MEMBER SHROYER: One of the

6 questions I have and I have to say in Novi I

7 have never seen so many banks and credit

8 unions go up in a period of like three years

9 or four years. And there is more coming, at

10 least one that I am aware of. Did you look

11 at when selecting this site the banks per

12 capita? Or how was it determined that Novi

13 is where you want to have a branch? Some of

14 our banks even have two and three branches

15 here.

16 MR. WALTERSON: The TCF, if we

17 want to go into the TCF philosophy,

18 basically we look where we think we need to

19 be regardless of who is there.

20 MEMBER SHROYER: The competition.

21 MR. WALTERSON: How many. We

22 have put new branches in areas where there

23 are so many banks and I don't have the stats

24 with me, but our Troy Branch that we also



1 put a little office building with, we took

2 away so much business from the other banks I

3 have received calls from the facilities

4 people in Troy saying, when you put that new

5 branch up I lost 30 percent of my deposits.

6 The competition is not -- we don't look at

7 it that way, if you will. We just look at

8 it as where do we want to be. What

9 communities do we think are the best places

10 to be. And then we just go for it.

11 MEMBER SHROYER: So you really

12 don't know why that location was selected in

13 Novi? You know that you wanted to move to

14 Novi, because as you mentioned it wasn't

15 really an ideal location for it.

16 MR. WALTERSON: Right. I want to

17 guess we looked at, I was part of the site

18 selection for a short period of time and

19 during that time I want to say we looked at

20 three or four different locations in Novi

21 and that one just fit and worked out the

22 best in terms of --

23 MS. NAGLEY: Also when you look

24 at when they were looking at the choices,



1 the competition is good for the customers

2 for that basis, a lot of the other banks

3 have brought in the same area, they

4 understand the same concept, they have moved

5 in very quickly as well.

6 The bridge, the new Beck Road

7 bridge, the grand opening, the gateway into

8 Novi, what a great location to have a great

9 bank there, your business there, just to pop

10 it and help welcome them. So what other

11 place to pick than there?

12 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, that's

13 your choice, obviously, and it's a beautiful

14 bank. And I think your advertisements by

15 the way are excellent.

16 MS. NAGLEY: Thank you.

17 MEMBER SHROYER: It's just my

18 personal thought.

19 MS. NAGLEY: Mr. Shroyer, may I

20 introduce Larry Czekaj.


22 MR. CZEKAJ: Hi, Larry Czekaj --

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: You have to be

24 sworn --



1 MR. CZEKAJ: I can answer your

2 last question --

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Sir, hold on one

4 second you have to be sworn in.

5 MR. CZEKAJ: I'm sorry.

6 MR. SAVEN: He's an attorney.

7 MEMBER BAUER: He is? Okay.


9 attorney, okay.

10 MEMBER SHROYER: You got to swear

11 him in twice.

12 MR. CZEKAJ: Hi, Larry Czekaj,

13 and I am a senior vice-president and legal

14 counsel for TCF Bank. I was here today to

15 watch. I am a Novi resident as well.

16 But directly to the question just

17 asked as Mr. Walterson, I too was involved

18 with some of the site selections. And I

19 headed up the Michigan expansion program

20 back in 2000. In a simple response the way

21 Mr. Walterson described it is pretty

22 accurate. We have not been afraid from our

23 corporate profile to go into competitive

24 areas. And the premise has been, our



1 business profile has been from a product

2 standpoint we stack up very well if not

3 better than most. And if we find a location

4 that has significant what we call footings

5 or deposits there is a good chance that we

6 can move next to a Bank One or Nat City or

7 so forth and we have a very good chance of

8 stealing, taking some of those customers in

9 a very competitive environment.

10 We like to seek out power

11 centers, shopping centers and so forth

12 around the Metropolitan area. A big push

13 that we have had, we have a relationship

14 with the Meijer corporation and you will

15 find that many of the newer Meijer stores in

16 the last five or six years we have outlet,

17 out pad locations.

18 So when we were combing the Novi

19 area both from a demographic standpoint

20 there are a lot of footings, a lot of

21 deposits in this town, the location was

22 ideal, 96 and Beck Road. Beck Road going

23 between 96 and M-14 the gateway to Western

24 Novi. Krogers being an integral part of



1 that shopping center as well as Home Depot.

2 However, one thing that was not in place at

3 the time that we chose the site that was the

4 existing configuration for the Beck Road

5 interchange.

6 The bridge location while there

7 was some conceptual plans out there had not

8 been finalized at the time we started and so

9 I would say as Mr. Walterson said, we -- I

10 don't want to say got pigeon holed, but that

11 configuration did not help our cause and the

12 whole reconfiguration of the site we didn't

13 really anticipate being in the back alley of

14 the corner which we ultimately ended up

15 being.

16 In addition to that, at the time

17 we chose the site and by the time we started

18 contractual negotiations with our partner,

19 the Nat City branch on Grand River was not

20 planned. Citizens was not planned.

21 Huntington Bank was not planned. And the

22 Bank One soon to come up here was not

23 planned. So in terms of the competition,

24 while we are not afraid to go into the



1 competitive nest of the other lending

2 institutions, that is tempered by common

3 sense and the general fear we all have. So

4 we thought we were getting in early. We

5 attempted to get in early. We ultimately did

6 have, I would be remiss to say I believe we

7 were in before Standard Federal had actually

8 locked down a site with them. Although

9 there had been some discussions with them,

10 that site was no available to us.

11 So it wasn't an afterthought. The climate

12 has changed. The climate changed in Novi

13 and it changes elsewhere as well, so that's

14 certainly not, I don't think the issue that

15 anybody has here today. But as they have

16 attempted to describe we are just trying to

17 deal with the situation that we have and can

18 move forward. Thank you.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, sir.

20 Go ahead.

21 MEMBER SHROYER: We are very

22 happy to have TCF Bank here. Like I said

23 it's a wonderful building and we want to do

24 what we can. I do have concerns and the



1 Board can help address my concerns.

2 One of them is the size of the signs. Is

3 there a reason why you can't go with two 24

4 foot signs as opposed to a 41 square foot

5 and a 24 square foot?

6 MR. CLARK: Well, the slightly

7 larger one won't fit where the small one is

8 proposed, so that's why the four foot by six

9 foot one is where it is. And the what we

10 call the five by eight will fit where it's

11 positioned there and it has a view or can be

12 viewed from the shopping center there. So we

13 thought that that was appropriate. That is

14 not a huge amount of signage.

15 I know that you are very careful

16 with what you allow in your City and I

17 appreciate that. I live in my community and

18 I am a consumer too. I don't need the

19 biggest signs in the world looking out at

20 me. I don't think that that is a huge

21 presentation for a building of this size and

22 what we're trying to do with it. It's only

23 five by eight, it's not big.

24 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Thank



1 you. The other thing I wrote down here, I

2 was out at the bank yesterday, I always try

3 to visit all of our sites. And you have a

4 lot of windows. I started counting signs and

5 windows. There are three neon open signs.

6 One neon western union sign. A regular

7 western union sign. A job transition sign.

8 Four totally free checking signs. Five open

9 seven days a week signs. Two cash your

10 payroll checks here signs. And one TCF Bank

11 window sign. And, of course, you do have the

12 eight or ten directional signs outside as

13 well.

14 We do have sign Ordinances and

15 I'm not an Ordinance officer, but under

16 Section 28-8(14) we do say business signs

17 displayed through building glass area has

18 five subsections that follow. And things

19 like neon open signs are permissible. That

20 is one of them that is permissible. It

21 doesn't say anything about something like a

22 western union sign that's neon. It talks

23 about not to exceed I think it's 25 square

24 foot per -- 25 percent --



1 MR. SCHULTZ: 25 percent of

2 the glass --

3 MEMBER SHROYER: -- of the window

4 sign. And I think they all fall within that.

5 And it goes on and says that they are

6 permissible provided they are removed from

7 the glass area not more than 30 days after

8 their first display. Those don't require a

9 permit. Anything that's there longer than 30

10 days requires a permit. Is that correct, Mr.

11 Amolsch?

12 MR. AMOLSCH: No, it's a standard

13 of the Ordinance 30 days. And it's

14 difficult to enforce.

15 MEMBER SHROYER: Difficult to

16 enforce. So I guess part of -- I am trying

17 to look at the whole building. I am trying

18 to look at the aesthetics. I am trying to

19 look at what Novi sees, etcetera. I am not

20 totally opposed to the new request, but then

21 when I drive up and every single window has

22 signs in it and then you are asking for more

23 signs, it's kind of like I need to be

24 convinced.



1 So, Board, convince me. That's

2 all I have to say, Mr. Chair.

3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

4 Anybody else?

5 I would like to go on record, I

6 went to the site and the first time I

7 realized that that was the TCF Bank.

8 Because going come from the 12 Mile Road

9 side going over the overpass there and

10 coming down towards the shopping center now

11 you can see that there is a bank there and

12 it is a name. So it does have to have an

13 identification there.

14 I am not going to get involved in

15 the discussion about the little window signs

16 because that is not what we are discussing

17 tonight. And I think that is a

18 (unintelligible) which I don't want to get

19 involved in now. That is for the Ordinance

20 officer and the sign officer to decide what

21 to do about it.

22 So beyond that if there is no

23 further discussion I would like Ms. Working

24 to call the roll please.



1 ROBIN WORKING: Member Fischer?


3 ROBIN WORKING: Member Bauer?


5 ROBIN WORKING: Member Sanghvi?


7 ROBIN WORKING: Member Shroyer?

8 MEMBER SHROYER: We need four

9 votes to pass.



12 ROBIN WORKING: Member Krieger?


14 ROBIN WORKING: Motion passes

15 5-0.

16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

17 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you.

18 MEMBER SANGHVI: Wish you all the

19 luck.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: If you want to

21 send any tips on taking market share from

22 someone over at Ford we would appreciate it

23 by the way. Thirty percent for us would be

24 great.



1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Please invite

2 Mr. Fischer for cake and coffee.

3 MS. NAGLEY: That's right. Any

4 time, you come see me, Justin.

5 MR. CLARK: Thank you very much

6 for your consideration.

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

8 MS. NAGLEY: Thank you.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think the next

10 item on the agenda we go on to other matters

11 is election of officers. As a couple of our

12 members are missing here I would suggest

13 that we postpone the election to the next

14 meeting --

15 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

16 MEMBER SANGHVI: The Chair will

17 entertain a Motion regarding that.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: It would be my

19 understanding that we would vote at the end

20 of the meeting to be effective the April

21 meeting, correct?

22 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's correct.

23 MEMBER FISCHER: I would support

24 that too.




2 Motion has been made, has been seconded.

3 All those in favor of the the

4 Motion please signify by saying aye.


6 MEMBER SANGHVI: Okay, thank you.

7 And then the other matter is Oakland Baptist

8 Church. Who is talking about it?

9 Yes, Mr. Saven?

10 MR. SAVEN: Thank you, Mr.

11 Chairman. We have kind of an unusual

12 situation. We have Oakland Baptist Church.

13 This was the church that was moved from

14 Grand River and Novi Road to the site which

15 is on Beck Road. This is a very small

16 church with a very small membership with

17 very small financing.

18 And we have been trying to

19 historically preserve this church as much as

20 possible. We have gone to the ends degree

21 in just about doing everything we possibly

22 can for this particular church within

23 reason.

24 One of the things that came up



1 was a matter regarding financial guarantees

2 which is part of an Ordinance that says that

3 the church has to post a bond to the tune of

4 150 percent of the uncompleted cost of the

5 site work. And this by financial guarantee

6 would either be a letter of credit or cash,

7 what have you.

8 At this particular point this

9 church is really operating on a shoe string.

10 They need to get occupancy so they can bring

11 in membership so they can bring in more

12 money. But along the same line they cannot

13 afford this financial guarantee. I think

14 it's a problem for everybody trying to

15 figure this situation out.

16 But then came, well, what can

17 they do? What can they come up with as a

18 financial guarantee that would possibly

19 satisfy the Ordinance? The Ordinance is

20 pretty clear about what it states. But in

21 this particular case we want something done

22 with this building. And what I am coming to

23 this Board on is the fact that I was trying

24 to ask the Board whether or not they would



1 consider an equivalency of something along

2 the line of the house that's on the property

3 and using that as collateral as a

4 similarness to a financial guarantee in this

5 particular situation.

6 Whether the Board would be

7 amenable to that particular type of an

8 equivalency in terms of interpretation in

9 the Ordinance, would that be the correct --

10 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes.

11 MR. SAVEN: Anyhow, it's a little

12 difficult situation. We want them to

13 continue to do work, specifically the site

14 work and yet along the same line we don't

15 want any type of monies they would have to

16 achieve, try to get to complete the work, we

17 want them putting it into the, definitely

18 putting it into the building and getting the

19 project cleaned up. This project has been

20 ongoing for --


22 MR. SAVEN: At least ten years

23 that I can think of. And people want to see

24 something done with it and I am asking the



1 Board for consideration in this particular

2 case as far as interpretation is to consider

3 this as an equivalency.

4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Schultz?

5 MR. SCHULTZ: Briefly through the

6 Chair, Mr. Saven outlined the problem very

7 well. Just an additional piece of

8 information. Because this has been ongoing

9 for so long it's under an Ordinance

10 procedure that's well before our current

11 chapter that deals with financial

12 guarantees. And Council passed that

13 recently and in terms of setting a

14 precedent, that's not really something I

15 think the Board needs to worry about.

16 We're looking at an older repealed Ordinance

17 that says Mr. Saven is permitted to give a

18 TCO if there is a financial guarantee in

19 place. We are just looking to let you know

20 that we are contemplating something a little

21 bit different than cash or letter of credit

22 because these guys just can't post it.

23 So, we are going to try to work

24 out some arrangement with them. We haven't



1 worked it out yet, but we wanted to make

2 sure the Board knew because under the old

3 Ordinance it might have been a variance

4 requirement, so we want to make sure

5 everybody is aware of what's going on.

6 MEMBER BAUER: Would you put a

7 lien on it like a mortgage?

8 MR. SCHULTZ: It may be something

9 like that --

10 MR. SAVEN: TCF Bank.

11 MR. SCHULTZ: If they can post a

12 letter of credit or find somebody that will

13 give them a bond we will do that. But

14 they've got an immediate need and we are

15 trying to get them in before they could be

16 noticed for your next meeting.

17 MEMBER SANGHVI: What kind of

18 time period are we looking at?

19 MR. SCHULTZ: Completion.

20 MR. SAVEN: It's almost hard to

21 say with the weather conditions that's out

22 there right now, certainly the existing site

23 work can't be even touched right now. So

24 they are pretty well set on the interior of



1 the building. They have the exterior which

2 is accessible as it exist right now.

3 The exterior site work isn't a

4 100 percent complete by no means, but they

5 need to conduct meetings within that

6 particular building two days a week. I think

7 three hours on Sunday and two hours on

8 Wednesday or something along that line.

9 MEMBER SANGHVI: So would it be

10 appropriate to give them a six-month

11 extension?

12 MR. SAVEN: I think to try to

13 give them a time factor I don't want to

14 mislead the Board at all. I would not even

15 begin to do that. They are moving on the

16 site work. They have pretty good

17 commitments on the site work. And I see

18 more work there in the last prior to the

19 freeze coming on than I ever seen before. So

20 this is good and they are contemplating

21 continuing this through the Spring of the

22 year as soon as the weather permits.

23 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Schultz, what

24 are the other options here?



1 MR. SCHULTZ: Well, at this point

2 the building official, Mr. Saven, has

3 decided that it makes sense under these

4 circumstances to take that old Ordinance

5 provision which has been repealed now, but

6 which this project is under and interpret it

7 to mean that we can do something other than

8 cash or letter of credit.

9 You don't have to act unless you

10 tell us here tonight we think you are off

11 base. If you don't think that's off base

12 what Mr. Saven is proposing, we just want to

13 let you know where that was coming from.

14 Because the Ordinance now is different. New

15 projects, other projects are going to be

16 under a different Ordinance.

17 MEMBER FISCHER: Can I urge you

18 correctly in saying that we would be acting

19 under the old Ordinance so any

20 interpretation of that Ordinance would

21 pretty much be null and void because no

22 other projects are governed by that

23 Ordinance?

24 MR. SAVEN: I don't think there



1 is a project on the books right now that

2 would fall under that Ordinance.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. I was just

4 nervous with the interpretation side of

5 things that that seems like it is more apt

6 to set a precedent than the other ways that

7 we handle variances and so I just want to

8 make sure that we wouldn't be going under

9 that interpretation side, if it would lead

10 to setting a precedent.

11 MR. SCHULTZ: We are looking at

12 this as kind of an ongoing project that

13 certainly anything new coming in for TCOs is

14 most likely going to be under the new

15 Ordinance, a different Body that approves

16 those kinds of deviations.

17 MEMBER FISCHER: What about a

18 guarantee like Mr. Saven not retiring and

19 his pay going to pay for the church?

20 MR. SCHULTZ: Brilliant idea.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: I would also be

22 willing to accept an alternate like that.

23 MEMBER SHROYER: A 150 percent

24 translates to what dollar wise



1 approximately?

2 MR. SAVEN: That I couldn't tell you.

3 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, the reason I

4 mention that is I would think myself that

5 the land alone is quite valuable being right

6 there on Beck Road and that could be

7 utilized as an equivalency.

8 MR. SCHULTZ: That are any number of

9 other things that make this a little bit

10 different. I mean the building is as Mr.

11 Saven said not ready to move in. The City

12 did encourage this building to be moved long

13 ago. And there is value to the property.

14 If the property owner is willing to work

15 through an alternative I am sure we could.

16 We just wanted to let you know we are headed

17 down that road and that was it.


19 question for you, Mr. Saven.

20 MR. SAVEN: Oh, here it comes.

21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is this an eye

22 sore?

23 MR. SAVEN: Not now.

24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Is it a safety



1 risk of any kind?

2 MR. SAVEN: The safety risk of

3 any kind is leaving the job uncompleted at

4 this time. We need to do the site work.

5 Site work needs to be done and we need to

6 get the site work done as soon as possible.

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: My personal

8 feeling would be to just leave things be and

9 let's hope that they can get it together.

10 MEMBER BAUER: There is nothing

11 they can do now.

12 MR. SAVEN: What I am trying to

13 say, Members of the Board, is that if they

14 can hold their church services within the

15 building, chances are they can get more

16 membership to help pay for this thing.

17 MEMBER SHROYER: They need to

18 obtain occupancy.

19 MR. SAVEN: I can't give them

20 occupancy --

21 MEMBER SHROYER: Without a

22 guarantee?

23 MR. SAVEN: Without a financial

24 guarantee.



1 MEMBER FISCHER: And you might

2 need our help to do so.

3 MR. SAVEN: I always need your

4 help. You know that.


6 would be in favor of an equivalency similar

7 to property rights or something along that

8 line.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm sure they

10 would come up with something.

11 MEMBER SHROYER: Is part of the

12 improvement to straighten the building?

13 MR. SAVEN: Don't go there,

14 please.

15 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Schultz, is

16 it really in terms of reference of this

17 Board to give them an occupancy permit

18 without the guarantee?

19 MR. SCHULTZ: This is actually

20 something that is squarely in the Building

21 Official's department and on his shoulders.

22 So I think we are going to take care of this

23 administratively, but I wanted to let you

24 know where we're going.



1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Are we inclined

2 to just leave things be as they are?

3 MR. SCHULTZ: Okay.

4 MEMBER SANGHVI: If everybody is

5 agreeable, I think we will do just that.

6 MEMBER KRIEGER: Can they get

7 occupancy?

8 MR. SAVEN: We are not doing

9 occupancy?

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just asked

11 that question. He say it's your decision.

12 MR. SCHULTZ: We were not looking

13 for a specific action from the Board. So I

14 understood your comment to mean you were

15 fine with that.

16 MEMBER SHROYER: I'm saying we're

17 okay to give -- you are recommending that

18 it's okay for the Building Department --

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Do you not mean

20 -- it's not really in our terms to

21 reference, so that question isn't right.

22 MR. SCHULTZ: That's fine.

23 MR. SAVEN: Okay.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Do what you need



1 to do.

2 MR. SAVEN: Oh, God, I'm going to

3 jail again.

4 MEMBER KRIEGER: We'll bail you

5 out.

6 (Interposing) (Unintelligible)

7 MR. SAVEN: It's not the last

8 thing. I got one more to go.


10 (Unintelligible). Go ahead.

11 ROBIN WORKING: Mr. Chair, I

12 would like to remind the Board that you have

13 a ZBA Board Member training session next

14 Tuesday evening at 7:30 here in the Council

15 Chambers.

16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes, ma'am.

17 ROBIN WORKING: Thank you.

18 MEMBER SANGHVI: May I request

19 you to send everybody an e-mail so the

20 people who are not here will know.

21 ROBIN WORKING: I will, oh,

22 absolutely.

23 MEMBER FISCHER: What time is it

24 for?





3 provided in the meeting or anything else?

4 ROBIN WORKING: We can discuss

5 that.

6 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman?


8 MR. SAVEN: I do have one last,

9 actually a couple last items. At this time

10 I would like to introduce the gentleman that

11 will be your advisor here on the Board and

12 will be your representative. His name is

13 Chris Fox. Chris, you want to stand up for a

14 minute, please.

15 Chris has actually worked in

16 assisting the City some time ago when he

17 worked with JCK & Associates. He was very

18 actively involved in a lot of work with the

19 City. We did hire him for his expertise.

20 Is he somewhat familiar with the Ordinances

21 of the City, very good with the people and

22 dealing with issues. He is the first line

23 of defense when they come in and ask the

24 questions, can I do something? Can I do



1 this? He either just looks at all the stuff

2 for the compliance to the Ordinance and he

3 is normally the one that flags it when it

4 gets to me or whatever. So we are going to

5 eliminate the middle man process right now.

6 John is still going to be the go to person

7 in the Department. He is going to be the

8 head cheese in this particular area. But I

9 will assure you that Chris will do a very

10 wonderful job for you because I have seen

11 him in action. I have seen him dealing with

12 the people.

13 And the reason why this is coming

14 about because, ladies and gentleman, this is

15 my last meeting with you. It's been very

16 much an honor to be a part of this Board for

17 some 20 years or whatever.

18 And I can't say any more but for

19 the fact that it is certainly outside of

20 working with the City and dealing with

21 Zoning Board of Appeals, it has been a

22 complete pleasure and honor working with

23 everybody on the committee. This has just

24 been absolutely fantastic. I love how you



1 guys operate. You guys are a tough Board.

2 But I tell you this, you do very well. And

3 Chris will do you well too. Thank you.

4 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, Mr.

5 Saven.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: Does he share

7 your enthusiasm for humor and sarcasm as

8 well?

9 ROBIN WORKING: I will attest to

10 that.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. If not

12 I'm in trouble.

13 MEMBER SANGHVI: All I want to

14 add is that we will be very sorry to see you

15 go, but I guess you have to retire some

16 time. I think you have served this City

17 well for all these years.

18 MR. SAVEN: Thank you.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: And on behalf of

20 the Board here and on my own behalf I want

21 to thank you for being what you are. You

22 have been a great asset here and we will

23 miss you, but we wish you well.

24 MR. SAVEN: Thank you so much.



1 MEMBER BAUER: Speak for

2 yourself. We know this guy.

3 MEMBER SANGHVI: I know, that's

4 why I'm saying it.

5 MEMBER SHROYER: He is going to

6 apply for the next opening on the ZBA.

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Very good. Is

8 there anything else --

9 MR. SAVEN: I'm all set.

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: -- before the

11 Board here today?

12 Seeing none, I will entertain

13 a --

14 Yes, Mr. Fischer? Entertain a

15 Motion to adjourn?

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to

17 adjourn the last ZBA meeting with Don

18 Saven.

19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.


21 MEMBER SANGHVI: All those in

22 favor to adjourn signify by saying aye?


24 MEMBER SANGHVI: All right, thank



1 you.

2 The meeting is adjourned.

3 (The meeting was adjourned at

4 8:48 p.m.)























1 C E R T I F I C A T E



4 I, Mona L. Talton, do hereby certify

5 that I have recorded stenographically the

6 proceedings had and testimony taken in the

7 above-entitled matter at the time and place

8 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further

9 certify that the foregoing transcript,

10 consisting of (62) typewritten pages, is a

11 true and correct transcript of my said

12 stenographic notes.






18 _____________________________

19 Mona L. Talton,

20 Certified Shorthand Reporter


22 February 27, 2007