| View Agenda for this meeting View Action Summary for this meeting REGULAR MEETING - ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, January 10, 2006. BOARD MEMBERS ALSO PRESENT: REPORTED BY:
1 Novi, Michigan 2 Tuesday, January 10, 2006 3 7:30 p.m. 4 - - - - - - 5 MEMBER FISCHER: I would like to 6 call to order the Tuesday, January 10th, 2006, 7 City of Novi Zoning Board of Appeals meeting. 8 Ms. Backus, could you please 9 call the roll. 10 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Present. 12 GAIL BACKUS: Member Canup is 13 absent excused. 14 Member Fischer? 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Present. 16 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Here. 18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Here. 20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Here. 22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 23 MEMBER SHROYER: Here. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a
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1 quorum present. The meeting is now in session. 2 I would like to go over a 3 couple of rules of conduct. Please turn off 4 all cell phones and pagers. And also please 5 be reminded that individuals will five 6 minutes to address the Board; groups will 7 have ten. There are a couple other rules of 8 conduct on the agenda; please do look over 9 them. 10 The Zoning Board of Appeals is 11 a Hearing Board empowered by the City of 12 Novi Charter to hear appeals seeking 13 variances from the application of the Novi 14 Zoning Ordinance. It takes a vote of at 15 least four members to approve a variance 16 request and a vote of the majority present 17 to deny a variance. 18 Tonight, we do have a full 19 Board, so all decisions will be final. 20 Are there any changes to the 21 agenda? 22 Ms. Backus? 23 GAIL BACKUS: Yes. 24 Case Number, 05-109 filed by
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1 Thurber Building Company, they called me 2 this morning requesting that their case be 3 withdrawn. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 5 That case is withdrawn. 6 Member Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, 8 Mr. Chairman. 9 I just wonder whether you want 10 to approval of the Minutes? We didn't -- we 11 haven't had an opportunity to look at them. 12 MEMBER FISCHER: I would agree. 13 We can take approval of 14 Minutes off, because we just received those 15 tonight. We'll look at the December Meeting 16 Minutes at February. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Saven? 19 MR. SAVEN: Yes, Mr. Chairman. 20 There's also -- I'd like to 21 have on the agenda under other matters, an 22 issue regarding a variance which was granted 23 for 1321 West Lake Drive. Basically has to 24 deal with -- sorry. I got to get turned on
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1 here -- basically has to deal with an 2 extension of 60 days for obtaining a permit. 3 It's basically due to the MDEQ and the 4 permitting time it takes to get a sanitary 5 extension permit. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll go ahead 7 and look at that under other matters at the end 8 of the meeting. 9 Any other changes? 10 MEMBER BAUER: A later should be 11 noted we received from Chris Szelap. 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Yeah, if -- 13 during Public remarks, maybe can have our 14 secretary look at that and read it for the Board. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Any other 17 changes to the agenda? 18 Seeing none, I'll entertain a 19 Motion to approve as amended. 20 MEMBER BAUER: So moved. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: All in favor 22 say aye? 23 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: We have an
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1 agenda. 2 At this point, I'd like to 3 open the meeting to the public remarks 4 section of the meeting. 5 Is there anyone who would like 6 to make comments on a case that is not in 7 front of the Board tonight, please come 8 forward. 9 MS. SZELAP: We are Chris and 10 Ed Szelap. And you probably received our 11 letter and our picture. And we're not here 12 to asking for anything. We're just back to 13 say Happy New Year, and we wanted say thank 14 you very much for what you did for us seven 15 months ago in granting our variance. 16 The first time we tried, we 17 did not get it. But you all were very 18 professional and helpful in trying to tell 19 us, as Cynthia said, to go back to the 20 drawing board in a very nice, professional 21 way, which we did. 22 And we tried again the next 23 month, and were granted the variance, and 24 we're very pleased, because we were able to
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1 make our dream of remodeling happen. And 2 that was really something we wanted to do. 3 We love the City of Novi and wanted to stay 4 there. 5 We also want to say to other 6 Novi residents -- I know sometimes the 7 Zoning Board and the Building Department and 8 everybody else get, what you might call, a 9 bad rap. And we would We would like to say 10 that you all were very professional, dealing 11 with Mr. Saven and the Building Department; 12 dealing with John Wagen; dealing with Gail, 13 everybody was just super for us, and we just 14 wanted to come here tonight and tell you to 15 start your year off, that we think you do a 16 super job. 17 And thank you very much. 18 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Wow, thank 20 you. 21 MR. SZELAP: Yeah, I really 22 have to say, being a builder myself and 23 dealing with a lot of different communities; 24 I've always heard that Novi is a hard place
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1 to deal with. And I have to say that really 2 dealing with the Building Department on my 3 end of it was one of the best experiences 4 I've ever had working with City Officials. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Well, we 6 appreciate that. 7 We know what a great guy Don 8 Saven is, but we appreciate the compliments, 9 as well. 10 So thank you. 11 MEMBER BAUER: He's the best. 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Here, here. 13 MS. SZELAP: Thank you very 14 much. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you for 17 taking the time and coming out tonight. It's 18 very nice. 19 Thank you. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. 21 And the letter from January 22 9th -- given that that was from -- okay. 23 The letter we received was from the lady and 24 gentleman who just spoke, so we will take
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1 that off. 2 Also, given the appropriate 3 time, Mr. Saven, if you would like to 4 introduce -- 5 MR. SAVEN: Yes, I would. 6 Thank you. 7 Members of the Zoning Board of 8 Appeals, I'd like to introduce Shannon Ozga 9 from Secrest Wardel's Office who will be our 10 attorney at this time and possibly down the 11 road, too. I want to welcome her aboard. 12 This is a -- I've already forwarned her 13 about the conditions here on the Board; the 14 toughness that we deal with; and she's very 15 well aware of what needs to be done. 16 But I would like to welcome 17 her to the Board. 18 Thank you. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Welcome. 20 MS. OZGA: Thank you very much. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree. 22 Thank you for joining us 23 tonight. 24 And also we have another
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1 addition to our Board. Tim Shroyer was 2 appointed by City Council, and so I'd like 3 everybody to welcome him. And I'm sure 4 he'll be a great addition, with some 5 previous experience on the Planning 6 Commission; if that's correct. So welcome, 7 and we look forward to working with you, as 8 well. 9 So I'll close the Public 10 Remarks section of the meeting, seeing no 11 other persons for us, and we'll move to the 12 first case on the agenda. 13 14 Which is Case Number: 05-095, 15 filed by David Knipper for McNish Sports, 16 45283 Grand River. 17 Please step forward. 18 The Petitioner is requesting 19 permission to reface a business center sign 20 at said address. 21 MR. KNIPPER: Good evening, 22 everyone. My name is David Knipper from 23 McNish Sports, 45283 Grand River. 24 As your agenda indicates,
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1 we're seeking this variances. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: And, sir, were 3 you sworn in last month? 4 MR. KNIPPER: Yes, I was. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 6 MR. KNIPPER: Okay. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Then I'll just 8 note that that still stands. 9 MR. KNIPPER: Sorry. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Please 11 continue. 12 MR. KNIPPER: Each of you, I 13 believe, through Gail, should have a copy of 14 the sign that's currently erected in front 15 of our facility, and we're seeking your 16 concurrence with that business center sign. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very 18 much. 19 And as Board Members will 20 remember, this case was tabled from the 21 January 10th(sic) meeting, and we did 22 receive a new mock up tonight. 23 If anyone didn't receive it, 24 please let me know.
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1 In this case, there were 22 2 notices mailed; zero approvals, zero 3 objections. And given that there's no new 4 material, there was no new notices sent this 5 month. 6 Is there anyone in the 7 audience who would wish to comment on this 8 case? 9 Seeing none, I'll ask the 10 Building Department for any comments? 11 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments. 12 MR. SAVEN: It was a desire of 13 the Board to have a more -- more information 14 regards to the type of signage and the verbiage 15 that was going to be on the sign. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 17 Mr. Saven. 18 And I'll open it for Board 19 discussion. 20 Member Krieger? 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 22 The size, could you tell me 23 the square footage of this? 24 MR. KNIPPER: Say that again,
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1 please? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: The square 3 footage, what is it of this? 4 MR. KNIPPER: It does meet -- 5 it's exactly the same as the existing sign, 6 which meets all of the specifications of the 7 City of Novi. 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: So 32 square 9 feet? 10 MR. KNIPPER: And Alan, maybe 11 you can help me, but is it four by six, I 12 believe? 13 MR. AMOLSCH: It's eight by 14 four, actually. 15 MR. KNIPPER: Eight by four. 16 It's eight by four. 17 Thank you. 18 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 19 I find that it's the -- a more 20 informational sign -- information that we've 21 gotten here from the Albers, and I'd had be 22 willing to support it, if I could make a Motion 23 for discussion? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Please do.
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1 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. 2 In Case Number: 05-095, filed 3 by David Knipper for McNish Sports at 45283 4 Grand River; property is located east of 5 Taft Road and on south side of Grand River. 6 I move to accept the one sign 7 variance as submitted and proposed here 8 tonight with the information here; and told 9 to allow a business center sign for Albers 10 Commerce Center located at 45283 Grand 11 River. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a 14 Motion and a second on the table. 15 Any further discussion? 16 Ms. Backus, will you please 17 call the roll. 18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 4 GAIL BACKUS: And Member 5 Shroyer? 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 7 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes six 8 to zero. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance 10 has been granted. Good luck. Please see the 11 Building Department. 12 MR. KNIPPER: Thank you, 13 everyone, very much. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Member 15 Gronachan? 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Chairman 17 Fischer, I'm going to ask if -- due to the 18 unforeseen circumstances that are taking out -- 19 taking up in our atrium -- in case people at home 20 are hearing the background noise or whatever. We 21 have a lot of singing going on; feels like the 22 Morman Tabernacle Choir is out there. So if 23 everybody could speak up a little bit more into 24 the mic -- for the Petitioners as well as the
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1 Members -- I think it would help, keep things 2 going. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree. Not 4 only for the people at home, but for myself, as 5 well. And I know that the Petitioners sometimes 6 can be hard to hear in here without the 7 distractions. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And if I'm 9 gone in a few minutes, I'm out there singing. 10 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Moving right a 12 long, we'll move to Case Number 05-100, filed by 13 Will Hicks for National City Bank. 14 Is the Petitioner here? 15 Okay. Please come forward. 16 The Petitioner is requesting 17 three sign variances at 48648 Grand River 18 Avenue. This is east of Wixom and north of 19 Grand River. 20 And Board Members, as you will 21 remember, this was also tabled from 22 December. 23 MR. HICKS: Is there any way 24 to turn that on up there? Do I have to do
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1 it here? 2 MEMBER FISCHER: If you just set 3 whatever it is on the overhead, then they should 4 turn it on in the back. 5 MR. HICKS: Okay, great. 6 Thank you very much. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: And you were 8 both sworn in last time? 9 MR. HICKS: Yes, sir. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Once again, 11 that will stand for this meeting, as well. 12 MR. HICKS: Okay. 13 Thank you. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Please proceed. 15 MR. HICKS: Okay. 16 Good evening. We were here 17 last month going for a variance for three 18 signs, two wall signs, as well as a monument 19 sign off of West Twelve Mile. 20 From that meeting, there was a 21 couple of different comments that, you know, 22 was kind of unsure of what the Board wanted 23 to see in terms of signage -- what they 24 would agree to approve. There was a comment
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1 that the two wall mounted signs, if we could 2 locate one on the front of the building, as 3 well as one on the back of the canopy. 4 What I've placed on your 5 desk -- I don't know if you guys had the 6 copy of it -- were the three options that we 7 had spoken about the last meeting. 8 Option one, was the original 9 option that I have up on the screen here, 10 which depicts the two wall mounted signs, 11 both to be 20 square feet; as well as the 12 monument sign, which would be off of West 13 Twelve Mile. The size of the sign would 14 match what was already approved for the 15 ground sign along Grand River Avenue, which 16 would be approximately 32 square feet. 17 The reason for option one with 18 the ground sign, basically is because if you 19 look at our site here, you have a couple of 20 curb cuts along West Twelve Mile. I did 21 travel that road tonight before the meeting, 22 and I noticed that it is very dark. And you 23 know, it would be great for National City 24 and for customers of National City to be
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1 able to locate the curb cut along West 2 Twelve Mile; for the reason being, that 3 along Grand River, you only have the right 4 in right out only heading eastbound. 5 So most of your traffic 6 heading eastbound on Grand River will be 7 making a left hand turn onto West Twelve 8 Mile, and making the right hand turn into 9 the site. Also, if you take a look at an 10 extended view, zoomed out, you'll notice 11 that this whole area up to this plaza here 12 is all vacant. The same gentleman that sold 13 the property over to National City informed 14 us at the beginning that he will be 15 eventually selling off these lots in which, 16 in our opinion, would most likely have exits 17 onto West Twelve Mile. 18 I do understand that down 19 here, they've basically cut that off; but, 20 it still would be a great indicator for 21 National City to have that sign back there 22 along West Twelve Mile to further aid their 23 customers. 24 Now option two, what we did
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1 was, we took one of the wall mounted signs 2 that was located on the entrance of the 3 building here, and what we did was we took 4 that off and proposed it on the rear of the 5 canopy here. It was a question that the 6 committee wanted to see what it would look 7 like from the street, if it were placed on 8 the canopy. So I wanted to give you that 9 option. 10 Also with this option, we're 11 proposing in this location here, a reduced 12 monument sign or ground sign to 13 approximately 20 feet; because there was a 14 concern with the monument sign, and possibly 15 the size of the sign off of West Twelve 16 Mile. 17 With option three, basically 18 what we're doing is, we're proposing the two 19 wall signs, again 20 square feet, with the 20 reduced monument sign off of West Twelve 21 Mile. Now the reason for the two monument 22 -- or the two wall signs to be located in 23 the entrance of the building is purely for 24 directional purposes in, our opinion. We're
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1 not looking for more visibility off of Grand 2 River at all. If we were, those signs would 3 be a lot bigger. 4 You're not really going to be 5 able to see them at all from Grand River, 6 due to the fact that there is an existing 7 berm that will be installed, as well as 8 landscaping around that area. Therefore, 9 any traffic located here in the parking lot, 10 will notice the National City sign in the 11 entrance. As well as any parking that 12 happens in the rear, cannot utilize this 13 area in order to get into the bank. They 14 will be heading this way along this 15 sidewalk; thus, utilizing this National City 16 sign as a locater to enter the building. 17 Again we're not trying to over 18 exceed or get more signage than what is 19 allowed. We're trying to make a 20 business-oriented look for the community, 21 for the City. We feel this best does that. 22 I'd be more than happy to take 23 any questions at this time, and again I 24 appreciate your consideration for this
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1 variance. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir. 3 In this case this month, there 4 were no new notices mailed. And last time 5 there were 14 notices; zero approvals, zero 6 objections. 7 Is there anyone in the 8 audience that wishes to comment on this 9 case? 10 Seeing none, I'll move to the 11 Building Department for any comments? 12 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: And I'll open 14 it up for Board discussion. 15 Member Gronachan? 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good evening. 17 Welcome back. 18 MR. HICKS: Thank you. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You brought 20 your song book with you? 21 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 22 Actually, I was out there 23 before -- 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay, good.
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1 MR. HICKS: -- singing a 2 couple. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh. 4 You're going to need to help 5 me with this -- 6 MR. HICKS: Okay. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- because 8 mine are not -- I've got option one, which just 9 for clarification purposes, you're asking for the 10 two front signs; the one back sign; and the 11 ground monument. 12 MR. HICKS: No. I'm only 13 asking for the two front signs and the 14 ground sign off of west Twelve Mile. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. So 16 that's just the three signs. 17 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: The two at 19 the front and the one in the back. 20 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 21 They're all going to be only three signs. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MR. HICKS: I'm sorry. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay.
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1 So then in option two, we're 2 looking at the front sign, correct? 3 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 4 You had made the comment at 5 the last meeting -- 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 7 MR. HICKS: If he could 8 possibly relocate the one sign which is on 9 the west side of the entrance to the canopy 10 to see what that would look like; in lieu, 11 and put -- in lieu of putting that in the 12 front. So we wanted to give you that look, 13 as well, to give you guys again just another 14 option. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well -- and I 16 appreciate the fact that you did a little 17 research and found out that, in fact, there is 18 going to be something going in at Twelve Mile -- 19 there could be something going in at Twelve Mile; 20 which that was my concern. 21 MR. HICKS: Yes. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Coming in off 23 of Twelve Mile, regardless if it's closed today, 24 later on down the road, it may not be; but
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1 there's still going to be other businesses and 2 you're hoping that they're going to use your 3 business, because most people use a bank of some 4 sort. 5 MR. HICKS: Correct. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And if it's 7 an office or whatever, that they have access or 8 identification for that; and that's what I was 9 looking for. 10 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 11 Also, If I could. The exist 12 -- 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, let me 14 -- 15 MR. HICKS: Again, I'm sorry. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- let me 17 just finish here with my clarification, so I get 18 my train of thought here. 19 So then in option three -- 20 MR. HICKS: Option three is 21 the original option, except the monument 22 sign at the -- off of West Twelve Mile has 23 been reduced from 32 square feet to 24 approximately 20 square feet.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 So my question to you is, if 3 we go with option two, which would be the 4 sign in the front and the sign in the back, 5 what is your opinion that you feel that you 6 need the monument sign? You don't feel that 7 people -- that this isn't overkill? 8 MR. HICKS: If you travel 9 along West Twelve Mile, that existing 10 business that is directly to the west of us; 11 once you pass that business -- because of 12 the landscape, the geometrics of that land, 13 by the time that you notice that National 14 City sign on the canopy, you're going to be 15 past the curb cut. Therefore, you're going 16 to have to pass it, turn around. 17 At this point, there's no 18 other curb cuts really along Twelve Mile, 19 except further on down the road. You're 20 going to have to turn around, come back, and 21 then go back into the bank. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MR. HICKS: We would prefer 24 not to put the National City sign on the
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1 rear of the building, but it was a comment 2 from the Board, so we wanted you guys to 3 take a look at it. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I'll be 5 honest, I still favor that, especially now seeing 6 it. 7 MR. HICKS: Okay. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Your comment 9 in regards to the monument that -- with this 10 landscaping, I think that -- your location or 11 your building is a bank. 12 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And most 14 people, if they're looking for a bank -- 15 MR. HICKS: Uh-huh. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: They're going 17 to find it. And once they find it, they usually 18 -- they're repeat business. So they're -- it's 19 not like they're going to struggle to relocate, 20 to re-find. 21 MR. HICKS: Uh-huh. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You know, 23 they come on a frequent, so it's kind of like a 24 destination location. So, the reason why I can't
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1 support the original request, and I'm leaning 2 towards option two, is because, option two fully 3 meets the spirit of the Ordinance. It identifies 4 the building, both front and back. We're not 5 talking about look nice -- 6 MR. HICKS: Uh-huh. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- just for 8 the sake of having National City up there. And 9 if there's any further development, because I 10 don't have a crystal ball, on Twelve Mile, it's 11 going to address that, and you're not going to be 12 back in front of this Board going, oh, gosh, gee 13 wiz -- which other people have done in the past 14 and said, you know, we didn't think this was 15 going to happen. 16 So I'm looking for the minimal 17 and the best operative here, without having 18 those two signs in the front. Now, if for 19 some reason people are driving down Grand 20 River and they just can't find you, then 21 when they come in, have them sign your 22 little petition; come back and see us. But 23 I don't think that those two National City 24 signs on the front are going to make the
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1 difference. 2 MR. HICKS: Well, I think, 3 too, with my job that I have now, I do a lot 4 traveling. And there have been a lot of 5 times where I'm looking for certain 6 businesses that don't have enough signage 7 along streets. And which, you know, by the 8 time that I do notice where that sign is -- 9 because it's so -- it's set back so far from 10 the road -- that -- you know, and we're -- 11 I'm of not only customers that are in Novi; 12 but customers that do travel. 13 Because there's a lot of times 14 -- I mean, I travel probably 70 percent of 15 the time. And it's very frustrating to me 16 to have to drive somewhere, and have to turn 17 around come back. Especially at that 18 intersection. You know, obviously West 19 Twelve there's not a lot of traffic. But, 20 you know, a lot of other places there's a 21 lot of traffic and have to turn around; 22 sometimes, you know, you do lose a little 23 bit of time, so. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I
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1 understand that and I hear what you're saying. 2 But like I said, I think at this point, that's -- 3 for me, for this Board Member, I'm willing to 4 support option two. 5 And I'll wait to hear the rest 6 of -- from my other Board Members. 7 MR. HICKS: Thank you. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you, 9 Mr. Chair. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 11 Member Gronachan. 12 Member Bauer? 13 MEMBER BAUER: Are you still 14 going to have a monument sign on Grand River? 15 MR. HICKS: Yes, sir. That 16 has been approved. 17 MEMBER BAUER: That's a free 18 sign. 19 MR. HICKS: Pardon me, sir? 20 MEMBER BAUER: That's your free 21 sign. 22 MR. HICKS: Yes, sir. 23 MEMBER BAUER: You've answered 24 my question.
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Sanghvi? 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, 3 Mr. Chairman. 4 This particular applicant 5 really raises three different issues. 6 Number one issue, whether there should have 7 more than one sign or not. And number two 8 issue is whether they should have a ground 9 sign; and then number three issue is whether 10 they should have wall signs; and if they 11 have wall signs, where. 12 And from the discussion so 13 far, I get a feeling that yes, they do need 14 more than one sign to identify this 15 business. The ground sign has already been 16 approved, from what I understand. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: On Grand 18 River, right. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: So now we are 20 talking about the third one is the two wall 21 signs; and whether those two wall signs has 22 any value in identifying this business, 23 which is a bank. I don't know at this point 24 in time what is going to be status of the
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1 Wixom Road bridge, and what -- how it is 2 going to change the topography in the 3 future. But if and when that happens, we 4 may have to look at this again. 5 In the meantime, if we 6 (unintelligible) on principal, A, that it 7 requires more than one sign; and the second 8 issue you is, whether they require two wall 9 signs. So that is what we are debating. 10 And looking at the topography of this place 11 and where the building is located, and the 12 way -- what has happened to Twelve Mile Road 13 already and what is likely to happen in the 14 future; to me, it appears quite reasonable 15 that these wall signs are also going to be 16 necessary to identify this business. 17 So I have no difficulty in 18 supporting their contention and their 19 application that it is essential to have all 20 these three signs. 21 Thank you. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 23 Member Sanghvi. 24 Other Board Members?
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1 Member Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 3 The first question I have is 4 for Mr. Saven, if I may. 5 I haven't had a chance -- 6 since I got this this evening, I haven't 7 read it. I read it a couple years ago, but 8 I haven't read it since. Is there a 9 difference in signs permitted on a corner 10 lot compared to a regular lot with one 11 facing? 12 MR. SAVEN: I'll refer to our 13 sign expert here. 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 15 MR. AMOLSCH: On the corner of 16 two thoroughfares, two signs are permitted, 17 if they're wall signs. If they chose a 18 ground sign, that's the only sign that they 19 get. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: In place of the 21 two wall signs. 22 MR. AMOLSCH: But this is not 23 a corner lot. If it were, they would be 24 allowed to wall signs.
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1 MEMBER SHROYER: I understand. 2 Okay, thank you. 3 The reason I was asking that, 4 is I like to look at this similar to a 5 corner lot, because you do have two roads. 6 They're not major thoroughfares, but 7 definitely there is two separate roads. 8 Most businesses only have the one. So I am 9 not opposed to additional signs, I'll start 10 out by saying that. 11 The second thing here, is -- 12 Boy, they are loud out there, 13 aren't they. 14 If I remember correctly at the 15 last meeting, Member Canup indicated that 16 Twelve Mile basically was a dead-end road. 17 MR. HICKS: Correct. 18 MEMBER SHROYER: And so he was a 19 little concerned about, you know, why do we need 20 to have signage on that road. When I visited the 21 site last week or the week before last, it is a 22 dead-end road. There's a sign there that says 23 entrance to I-96 permanently closed. 24 And I agree with Member
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1 Gronachan, that it's a bank. The first time 2 somebody goes, they're liable to get lost. 3 So if they're heading north on Twelve Mile 4 and they miss your entrance, they can't go 5 anywhere but turn around anyway. So 6 somewhere they're going to have to turn 7 around, come back and come in that entrance. 8 So I don't think that's a major 9 inconvenience. And they'll only do it once. 10 The next time, they'll know where the curb 11 cut is. So I am leaning very strongly 12 toward option two, as well. 13 I don't want to go to an 14 overkill; but I do think that more than one 15 sign is necessary. 16 So with that, I'll pass my -- 17 my floor. 18 Thank you. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 20 Member Shroyer. 21 Other Board Members? 22 I'll go ahead and put my 23 comments on the record. 24 Member Gronachan, if I could
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1 borrow that map again. 2 Now, the funny think about 3 giving a Board three options, is that it 4 seems like everybody's going to pick a 5 different one. 6 MR. HICKS: That's what I was 7 afraid of. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Personally, I 9 will more less lean and agree with Member 10 Sanghvi. I'm in favor of option number three. I 11 see the need for the signs on Grand River, the 12 two wall signs. I believe that esthetically, 13 it's much more pleasing that just having the one, 14 I know that that was a comment earlier. 15 Number two, we're talking 16 about Grand River, which is a 50 mile per 17 hour road; which -- that's if people are 18 going 50; not 55 or 60, like Member 19 Gronachan, probably likes to go. 20 And also, I don't see a point 21 to the sign on the canopy, because as you 22 mentioned, if you're looking at this map, 23 that faces -- that sign would face Grand 24 River at about a 110, 120 degree angle,
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1 where you were correct. You would be past 2 the curb cut before you saw that sign on 3 that canopy. I see it as clutter -- I'm 4 sorry, you're right. Twelve Mile. It faces 5 Twelve Mile at about 120 degrees. And it's 6 basically, pointing to nothing, if you ask 7 me. I see it as a waste. I see it as 8 clutter, and I can't see the point of that 9 sign and I cannot support that. 10 This is a very -- if you're 11 looking back to Grand River, it's a very 12 busy road, and it's going to become more 13 busy as the lots next to are developed. 14 It's going to become busier as Council 15 continues to give people going on Wixom and 16 Beck to get to the Rock Financial Showplace. 17 And we do see a lot of banks, and people 18 around here will know where this one is. 19 But we look at each case 20 individually. And in my eyes, the location 21 of where this bank is, it's one that's going 22 to see a lot more out of town business than 23 not; because of it's location near the Expo 24 Center, which will be drawing from cities
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1 around here; but not people who are normally 2 used to having this bank near them. 3 Twelve Mile, as stated, is 4 somewhat what of a dead-end street; and 5 that's why I like option three, too, because 6 that's the 20 foot ground sign. It's not 7 over extending the Ordinance, as far as I'm 8 considered(sic). I think that that's a good 9 compromise that takes into consideration a 10 lot of different Board Members' comments. 11 So that's why I would support 12 option three. 13 Any other Board Members? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I have a 15 question. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Member 17 Gronachan? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I have a 19 question for you. 20 MR. HICKS: Yes. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Did you not 22 say that the sign coming from the west off of 23 Grand River, that you eventually would not see 24 because of the landscaping? You made that
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1 comment in regard to the monument. 2 MR. HICKS: No, no, no. That 3 was the wall sign. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It was the 5 wall sign. 6 MR. HICKS: Yes, ma'am. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You would not 8 see it coming from the west. 9 MR. HICKS: No. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Which wall 11 sign? 12 MR. HICKS: The one I was 13 referring to on West Twelve Mile, you would 14 not see going east. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay, all 16 right. 17 MR. HICKS: If -- I was saying 18 that, due to the fact of the setback for the 19 wall signs off of Grand River Avenue -- 20 we're not looking for more visibility from 21 Grand River. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 23 MR. HICKS: I mean, with the 24 berm there and all the landscaping there,
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1 you'd really -- I mean, I don't -- 2 personally, I drove it. I drove it both 3 ways. And doing the speeds on both ways, 4 you're going to notice a ground sign, before 5 you ever notice those two wall signs. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: See, I 7 thought that's what you said. So it -- to me, 8 when you said that, that basically this sign is 9 not for identification purposes, because of the 10 lay of the land is going to block it; that it's 11 not necessary to have the two National City signs 12 right up front. I think it's an overkill. 13 MR. HICKS: Incorrect. 14 I stated that it would be 15 identification for the customers who park in 16 the parking lot. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right, right. 18 MR. HICKS: That was my -- 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: My 20 clarification, if you will, is to the Board 21 Members saying if they're going down Grand River, 22 they're going to be able to see this. And -- 23 MR. HICKS: Okay. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: --
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1 eventually, it's not from Grand River that you 2 are going to see these signs. So that my basis 3 for my decision is the fact that this does not 4 serve for identification on the thoroughfare as 5 previously stated by some of the Board Members. 6 MR. HICKS: Uh-huh. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It is clearly 8 once you get into the parking lot, and that's why 9 I'm not able -- I thought that's what you said. 10 That's what I wanted to clarify. 11 So at that point then, I would 12 -- I mean, if the Board Members don't want 13 to support the one in the canopy in the 14 back, given my statement in regards to the 15 future of Twelve Mile, then the only thing I 16 could support is one National City and the 17 ground sign; and I know that's option 18 whatever; Cindy's option. 19 Thank you. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Bauer? 21 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, 22 Mr. Chairman. 23 I think as a final spot, 24 you're going to go where you're going. It's
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1 not something that normally you will go by 2 and say, oh, I want to go there. People 3 will go to their bank because it is what 4 they want. Consequently, it is a final 5 designation. I do not see where these two 6 wall signs are going to do it. The proposed 7 wall sign in the rear I would prefer over 8 the monument sign; and that's my feeling. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 10 Member Bauer. 11 Member Krieger? 12 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 13 Since the National City is 14 going to have a Grand River side and a 15 Twelve Mile side, it would be like having a 16 corner, only different; so we'd have two 17 fronts almost. 18 So in away, option two would 19 help meet that. 20 Thank you. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 22 Member Krieger. 23 Member Sanghvi? 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: Mr. Chairman,
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1 I'd like to break this down and make a Motion. 2 Number one, that we accept 3 (unintelligible) business needs more than 4 one sign, to start with. If we are all in 5 agreeable, then we go further down the road 6 about what signs to accept or not to accept. 7 So I make a Motion that we 8 (unintelligible) for identification 9 purposes, the applicant require needs more 10 than sign. 11 MEMBER SHROYER: I can support 12 that. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Second. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: There's a 15 Motion that's been made. Can we take vote on it? 16 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a 17 Motion and a second. 18 Do we need a roll call on 19 that? Is that what you prefer? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Well, I think 21 we can do it in three parts, you see. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 23 MEMBER SANGHVI: We have 24 established the need for more than one sign.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member 2 Sanghvi, would you accept a friendly amendment? 3 I think we're all in agreement 4 that there's more -- there is a need for 5 more than one sign. I think you should just 6 grab which option and going through them and 7 see which one's going to get support and 8 which is not. That might speed it up a 9 little bit. 10 Go with -- if you want to -- 11 MEMBER SANGHVI: What I was 12 planning to suggest, then we go and decide about 13 the wall signs, and then finally we decide 14 whether we want to let the ground sign be there 15 or not. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, okay. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: So that we take 18 this piecemeal approach and each issue is then 19 covered and voted upon. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 21 Sorry. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: You have the 23 floor. It's your decision. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: So the first
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1 Motion I would like to make is just what we did 2 and what was seconded. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a 4 Motion -- 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: I request that 6 you ask for a vote on that Motion. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a 8 Motion and a second. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Please call the 11 roll, Ms. Backus. 12 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 14 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 16 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 17 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 19 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 21 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 22 GAIL BACKUS: And Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 24 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes six
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1 to zero. 2 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 3 The second Motion I would like 4 to make, that we approve the two wall signs 5 as requested by the applicant. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Which option? 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Which option? 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: The one which 9 is option two; the signs as presented in option 10 two. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: That would be 12 one facing Grand River and one on the canopy of 13 the drive-thru, facing Twelve Mile. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: That's correct. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Support. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 17 Motion and a second on that approval. 18 Any further discussion? 19 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will 20 you please call the roll. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 23 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
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1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 2 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 5 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 7 GAIL BACKUS: And Member 8 Fischer? 9 MEMBER FISCHER: No. 10 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five 11 to one. 12 MEMBER SANGHVI: Now, the third 13 Motion I would like to make is let them keep the 14 ground sign as approved. 15 MEMBER BAUER: Corrected? 16 Excuse me? 17 I'm asking -- say it over 18 again. 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Keep the ground 20 sign as it has been approved previously. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: A point of 22 information. The ground sign on Grand River -- 23 MEMBER BAUER: Is automatic. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: -- is already
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1 approved. And they're also asking for one on 2 Twelve Mile, though. 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: See, that's why 4 I'm not mentioning Twelve Mile. Just let it 5 stand as it is, and don't deal with this Twelve 6 Mile Road ground sign. 7 MEMBER BAUER: Well, it's 8 already been approved. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: So that's it. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: But they're 11 asking for one on -- 12 MEMBER BAUER: Twelve Mile Road. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: You've got to 14 deny Twelve Mile or approve. We can't not -- 15 it's been -- 16 MEMBER BAUER: Leave it hanging. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. 18 So given this map -- 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: Oh, yeah, 20 okay. I know what you're saying. Okay. 21 So now we are talking about 22 two ground signs. 23 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. 24 MEMBER SANGHVI: And two wall
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1 signs; and four signs. 2 And I feel that -- the way the 3 Board has expressed their opinion, I would 4 suggest that we deny the ground sign on 5 Twelve Mile Road. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Shroyer? 7 MEMBER SHROYER: May I ask a 8 question just for clarification. I want to make 9 sure -- in the second Motion, the -- one of the 10 wall signs that was approved, was the canopy sign 11 on Twelve Mile, correct? 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 13 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 14 No? 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 16 MEMBER BAUER: The only approved 17 one was up here. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No, the wall 19 sign. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Wall signs, 21 yes. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yeah, this 23 one and this one; option two. You're going to 24 have to -- here's option two; this and this.
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1 MEMBER SHROYER: Make sure 2 everybody's on the same page. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. I am in 5 agreement of the denial of the monument sign on 6 Twelve Mile, because we have a wall sign on 7 the -- 8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. That's 9 what I said. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 11 Thank you. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Is that your 13 supporting -- you're supporting the Motion? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: Sure. I'll 15 second the Motion. 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 18 Motion and a second. 19 Any other discussion? 20 I will just put it out there 21 one more time that on Twelve Mile, I see 22 that wall sign that was just approved 23 previously as something that's does not face 24 the traffic as it will be coming westward on
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1 Twelve Mile. This serves a purpose -- the 2 sign that was just approved serves a purpose 3 to identify the building from the east, 4 where we know no traffic will be coming. 5 So with that said, there's no 6 further discussion, Ms. Backus, please call 7 the roll on the denial of the monument sign 8 on Twelve Mile. 9 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 11 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 12 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 14 MEMBER BAUER: No. 15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 16 MEMBER FISCHER: No. 17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No. 19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: No. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Motion fails. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion to deny 23 does not pass. 24 Is there another Motion
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1 possibly with a 20 foot or a 32 foot 2 monument sign on Twelve Mile? 3 Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 5 In Case Number 05-100, filed 6 by National City and Will Hicks, I move that 7 the ground sign on Twelve Mile be approved 8 at 20 feet? At 20 foot in size, given the 9 testimony by the Petitioner substantiating 10 for identification purposes for on coming 11 traffic; and the unknown future of the 12 development of Twelve Mile. 13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: The proposed 16 monument sign on twelve be approved for 20 square 17 feet? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: 20 square 19 feet. 20 MEMBER BAUER: Height? 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Height? 22 MR. HICKS: It would be 23 approximately five feet tall. 24 MEMBER BAUER: Fine.
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1 Thank you. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'll accept 4 that friendly amendment. 5 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: And I have one 7 question for our attorney. 8 Do you suggest that we take 9 action on the proposed wall sign from Grand 10 River to deny that second one, the one that 11 faced westward? We've approved the one 12 facing Grand River. 13 MS. OZGA: Right. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: We've approved 15 the one in the back. 16 Now we're making a Motion on 17 the monument sign in back. We really 18 haven't done anything with that last sign. 19 Should we also -- 20 MS. OZGA: Well, they're only 21 requesting -- 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: There's only 23 three signs. 24 MS. OZGA: -- three variances
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1 for the three signs. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 3 MS. OZGA: And he gave you three 4 different options. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 6 MS. OZGA: So I don't see a 7 reason to deny -- 8 MEMBER FISCHER: I just want to 9 make sure -- 10 MS. OZGA: -- because you 11 granted the two wall signs as proposed in option 12 two. You've identified those, correct. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. 14 Thank you for that 15 clarification. 16 Member Shroyer? 17 MEMBER SHROYER: Just one more 18 comment. 19 Then in effect what we're 20 doing is approving option two, which is what 21 I supported in the first place. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: 20 minutes 23 ago. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Just
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1 wanted to make sure. 2 Okay. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: Just had to 4 make sure everyone -- that we're on the same 5 page. 6 Ms. Backus, would you please 7 call the roll. 8 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 10 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 11 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 12 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 14 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 15 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 16 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 17 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 18 GAIL BACKUS: And Member 19 Fischer? 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes six 22 to zero. 23 MR. HICKS: Thank you very 24 much.
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1 Which option are we going 2 with? 3 I'm just kidding. 4 Thank you very much. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Technically, 6 the statement earlier was incorrect. We went 7 with option two, but a 20 foot monument sign; not 8 the 32 square foot, so -- 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: If you have 10 any questions, just call Mr. Saven. I'm sure 11 he's -- he'll have it all. 12 MR. HICKS: Okay. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 14 MR. SAVEN: Don't use the term 15 option. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Yeah, don't do 17 that. 18 19 MEMBER FISCHER: And we'll move 20 along to case number three on the agenda, which 21 is Case Number 05-107, for Villagewood 22 Properties, located west of Haggerty, between 23 Nine and Ten Mile. The applicant is requesting 24 an extension of a sign variance, 15 -- I'm sorry.
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1 A nine square foot variance in area, and four 2 feet in height. 3 And you are the Petitioner? 4 Can you please be sworn in by 5 our secretary. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear 7 or affirm that the information -- would you raise 8 your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm 9 that the information that you're about to give in 10 the matter before you is the truth? 11 A. Yes. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: Could you 14 please state your name and address and proceed. 15 MR. CHAWNEY: Harry Chawney, 16 23965 Novi Road, Suite 120 in Novi. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Proceed. 18 MR. CHAWNEY: Oh, I'm sorry. 19 I want -- what we wanted to do 20 is we have our condominiums for sale right 21 now over on Haggerty Road, and we just 22 wanted to have a continuation for right now 23 for a period of one year, as sales are 24 ongoing for our sale sign. And hopefully --
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1 I didn't submit anything. I just assumed 2 that everybody would drive by and have a 3 look. 4 And basically that's it. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir. 6 Is there anyone in the 7 audience that wishes to comment on this 8 case? 9 Seeing none, there were 795 10 notices mailed; two approvals and 22 11 objections. 12 Madam Secretary, can you 13 please read the correspondence. 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: What did I 15 ever do to you. 16 Okay. I'm going to do a 17 highlight of name, address, and basis of 18 objection for a time, okay. 19 For Phillip Hodge, at 23627 20 North Rockledge. Please note my objection. 21 Villagewood Place already stands out by 22 having multiple signs marking their 23 driveway. The original marketing sign for 24 the complex is already larger than the other
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1 subdivisions; and I would object to anything 2 that allows even more signage. 3 As owner -- this is from Robin 4 Wagner, at 39702 Villagewood Circle, voicing 5 her objection; basically the same concern. 6 Nancy Hirshfield, at 23457 7 Stonehenge; the sign of -- the size of the 8 sign that is up now is, in my opinion, as 9 large as it needs to be. I do not approve 10 of anything larger; keep the same Ordinance 11 -- has always been. This is from Judy 12 Vorman on 23640 North Rockledge; against the 13 size, as well. 14 Lakewood Park Homes at Post 15 Office Box, 637, Novi, Michigan; objection. 16 This is from Margaret James. We do not need 17 larger business signs to ruin the looks of 18 our homes, 22873 Telford. 19 Milford Brickford at 22702 20 Cortez Drive. The Novi side of Haggerty is 21 all residential between Nine and Ten Mile. 22 I certainly hope it will remain that way. I 23 would not appreciate looking at some huge 24 commercial looking sign in that area. Many
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1 businesses in Novi have been forced to 2 smaller signs. I feel it is much more 3 important to keep huge signs out of 4 residential areas. 5 There are a few smaller 6 businesses at the corner of Ten and 7 Haggerty, but they are not mixed into 8 residential areas. Belinda Teetee is at 9 22413 Crabtree. Basically objecting the 10 fact that there is a sign. And from the 11 looks of the rest of these letters, 12 basically is the same, based on the size, 13 and the fact that there is even a sign 14 there. 15 And I don't feel that there's 16 anything else -- looking at these letters -- 17 that would add any other information from 18 these residents, and they're all part of the 19 record and they will be duly noted. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 21 Madam Secretary. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you, 23 Mr. Chair. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Building
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1 Department, any comment? 2 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir. 3 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out, 4 this is an existing sign. It's more of an 5 extension of a sign. I'd just like to ask Harry, 6 what's the percentage of occupancy you got there 7 now? 8 MR. CHAWNEY: Right now, we've 9 sold 16 units. It was a little slow the 10 second half of last year, but it's picking 11 up. Hopefully this year we'll do a lot 12 better and be done with it. 13 MR. SAVEN: Total out 14 percentage? 15 MR. CHAWNEY: Oh, right now, 16 we're at 25 percent. 17 MR. SAVEN: You're at 25 percent 18 -- 19 MR. CHAWNEY: Sold, occupancy, 20 right now, yes. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: So you have 16 22 occupants and about 80 -- 80 residences; is that 23 correct? 24 MR. CHAWNEY: No, there's 24
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1 residences, and we've sold six so far. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Oh, six, I'm 3 sorry. 4 MR. CHAWNEY: Yeah, we had a 5 -- it was a little bit slow this year, so. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 7 Any other comments by the 8 Building Department? 9 Seeing none, I'll open it up 10 for Board discussion. 11 Member Gronachan? 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good evening, 13 Mr. Chawney. 14 So, you already have a sign 15 there. 16 MR. CHAWNEY: Correct. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But you feel 18 that it needs to be bigger for what reason? 19 MR. CHAWNEY: It's not bigger. 20 I'm just asking to continue what was 21 approved last year. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, that's 23 where I'm confused. That's not what this request 24 says.
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1 MR. SAVEN: (unintelligible.) 2 It's for an extension of the sign. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 4 So you're not changing the 5 sign -- the size of the sign at all. 6 MR. CHAWNEY: No, I'm not. 7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay, all 8 right. 9 All right. 10 MEMBER BAUER: Wait a minute. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's where 12 I'm confused. 13 To elect a larger replacement. 14 Excuse me, but my thing says 15 it's an extension to erect a larger 16 replacement. 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: They are 18 already the same. There is some where some 19 problem. 20 MR. CHAWNEY: Originally -- 21 MR. SAVEN: I think we can 22 clarify this. 23 Alan, is the sign larger than 24 what it was before?
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1 MR. AMOLSCH: No, the sign is 2 the same size. The language, where it says 3 erect a larger replacement sign, is not 4 correct. It's an extension of an existing 5 sign that was already there. 6 MR. SAVEN: It's an existing 7 sign that was approved, larger -- 8 MR. AMOLSCH: That was larger 9 than what is allowed. The legal notice 10 says, though, what's the dimensions were and 11 the height variance, too. 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. I 13 remember the original case. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yeah, I do, 15 too. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So it's all 17 the same size, you just -- and how much of an 18 extension is it that you would like at this time? 19 MR. CHAWNEY: I'm just asking 20 for a one year extension for the moment. 21 And if I need to go longer, I'd come back 22 and ask again next year, if that's okay. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 24 That's all the questions I
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1 have. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, 4 Mr. Chairman. 5 From what I see and what I 6 hear, it appears that we are talking -- 7 looking at an extension of an existing sign; 8 and we also hear that he has only got 25 9 percent occupancy at present. And so it's 10 reasonable that we should continue this sign 11 as it is for a period of one year. 12 And hopefully, he will do well 13 enough so that we can take the sign down at 14 that point in time. 15 MR. CHAWNEY: I agree. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 17 Motion. 18 That was a Motion? 19 MEMBER SANGHVI: I make a 20 Motion, yes. 21 That's a Motion that in Case 22 Number: 05-107, we extend the existing sign 23 for a period of one year. 24 Thank you.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Support. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: The Motion that 3 we had last year, we said 15 square feet 4 (unintelligible.) It's the same size. 5 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: However, in our 7 Motion we've stated that it was six feet in 8 height. On our current request, it says nine 9 feet in height. 10 Can you tell me what the 11 current sign is at? 12 MR. CHAWNEY: Six feet. 13 (interposing) (unintelligible) last years -- 14 MEMBER FISCHER: And I would 15 move to -- offer a friendly amendment that we do 16 not approve as requested, but we approve at six 17 feet in height. 18 MEMBER SANGHVI: The Motion was 19 just to extend what is existing. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Fair enough. 21 Any other discussion? 22 Member Bauer? 23 MEMBER BAUER: Al, have you gone 24 out and measured the sign, the height and the
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1 square footage? 2 MR. AMOLSCH: Well, the 3 variance was approved for nine feet. He 4 might have put a six foot sign out there, 5 six foot high. But whatever he put out 6 there -- 7 MEMBER BAUER: Six feet high. 8 MR. AMOLSCH: Right. Which is 9 still a variance, because it was only 10 allowed to be five feet high. 11 MEMBER BAUER: Okay. Six feet 12 by 15 feet, then, you're talking? 13 Am I right or wrong? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. Six 15 feet high -- 16 MEMBER SANGHVI: Get what is 17 written here. 18 MEMBER BAUER: An area of 15. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: 15. 20 MEMBER BAUER: So right now, at 21 six feet -- what -- I think what's disrupting 22 everybody is saying (unintelligible) exactly what 23 he wanted before and what was agreed before, 24 correct?
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1 MEMBER SANGHVI: It says six 2 feet in height. 3 MEMBER BAUER: This is what's 4 confusing. 5 I think renewed as is. 6 MR. SAVEN: I think the Board 7 should look at the stand point of view that this 8 is an existing sign to what he had -- requesting 9 for the extension of that existing sign -- 10 MEMBER BAUER: Renewed as is. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: As is. 12 MEMBER BAUER: No problem. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: That is the 14 Motion. 15 Any other discussion? 16 Mr. Shroyer? 17 MEMBER SHROYER: I'll yield to 18 Mr. Bauer if he still has -- 19 MEMBER BAUER: No, I'm finished. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 21 Just want to make a comment or 22 two. 23 First of all, I'm a little 24 disappointed that last year they approved
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1 something that was a request that was over 2 double the permitted area; and secondly, 3 the request in height was almost double the 4 permitted height. But, since you are -- 5 already have the sign in place; you still 6 have 75 percent of your units to sell; I 7 think we owe it to the businessman here to 8 be able to allow him to maintain that sign 9 for the year. 10 And so I would be in total 11 support of the Motion. 12 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 13 Mr. Shroyer. 14 Ms. Backus, would you please 15 call the roll. 16 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 21 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 23 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 4 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes six 5 to zero. 6 MR. CHAWNEY: Thank you. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance 8 has been granted for one year. Good look on 9 selling the rest of those out. 10 MR. CHAWNEY: Thank you. 11 12 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll move 13 along to Case Number 05-108, filed by Randy 14 Penner for Community Financial. The applicant is 15 requesting one wall sign; and two sign variances 16 for the said property. 17 Can you please raise your 18 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear 20 or affirm that the information that you're about 21 to give in the matter before you is the truth? 22 MR. PENNER: Yes. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Please state
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1 your name and address, and proceed with your 2 case. 3 MR. PENNER: Sure. I'm Randy 4 Penner with Community Financial, located at 5 43350 Arena Drive. And as stated, we're 6 requesting two sign variances to erect one 7 wall sign for our building located off of 8 Arena Drive and Novi Road. 9 The reason for our request is 10 we have, as you know, one existing monument 11 sign right off of Novi Road. We have fairly 12 decent visibility going northbound on Novi 13 Road; but very poor visibility of the sign 14 going southbound; due to some of the 15 landscaping issues, as well as an additional 16 sign that is off of Arena Drive and Novi 17 Road for the ice arena; which is Ice Arena 18 Road. 19 Our request is for two sign 20 variances; one is for obviously the wall 21 sign; the additional sign; and then the 22 second variance is for the size, of the 23 total of 53 square feet instead of 40 square 24 feet.
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: In this case, 2 there were nine notices mailed, zero approvals 3 and zero objections. 4 Is there anyone in the 5 audience that wishes to comment on this 6 case? 7 Seeing none, I'll ask the 8 Building Department. 9 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments, 10 sir. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Then I'll open 12 it up for Board discussion. 13 Member Gronachan? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: What can I 15 say. I'm in such a good mood because I did all 16 that signing earlier. 17 Good evening, Mr. Penner. I 18 want a clarification. 19 The ground sign would stay? 20 MR. PENNER: Would stay, yes. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And what are 22 you going to do to help improve the visibility of 23 that sign? 24 MR. PENNER: Of the ground
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1 sign? 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Uh-huh. 3 MR. PENNER: We are not 4 planning on changing the ground sign at all. 5 It's just the additional -- 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But I mean 7 around -- I'm sorry. 8 MR. PENNER: Okay. 9 Go ahead. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Around the 11 sign, because you really can't see the sign. 12 MR. PENNER: Southbound, 13 right. 14 We have limitations on the 15 landscaping, which is required -- which has 16 been required by the City. We wanted to 17 make sure we keep the berm -- or the berm 18 slightly high. We can't lower that, but 19 there is some vegetation on top that we like 20 to keep trimmed at a reasonable level. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I -- after 22 looking at this, I'm in support of -- on this 23 case, and I'll tell you why. You actually know 24 it's a bank, but you don't know what bank. And
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1 that's where -- that's where it is hard. And 2 granted, if you're going down -- the way this 3 particular building sets, it almost sets back and 4 down, so you really can't see anything for 5 identification. 6 I feel that where this -- the 7 placement of the -- this sign that the 8 Petitioner is requesting. I'm in full 9 support. It's very difficult to make out 10 what it is, and I will tell you that I visit 11 this building quite often; whoever, I was 12 looking at it the other day thinking, I 13 don't know why they didn't tell us what it 14 was. I mean, I knew what it was. I was 15 waiting for it to get here. 16 But you really can't, if 17 you're driving down Novi Road, cannot see 18 that this is Community Financial Credit 19 Union. 20 And I would like to make a 21 note, maybe to the Ordinance Review Board on 22 these ground signs with this landscaping. 23 We put these ground signs in. They make 24 them do all this landscaping, and it really
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1 does cause a problem -- 2 MR. SAVEN: Yes. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- for -- so 4 many we could recommend that they take a look at 5 that. You know, that the landscaping be so many 6 feet away from the ground sign or something like 7 that, so this don't -- because you really can't 8 see it. 9 And that's all I have to 10 offer. So I'll be in support of this. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 12 Member Gronachan. 13 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: (Unintelligi 15 ble) make a Motion? 16 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Krieger? 17 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes, I agree 18 that it's showing a practical difficulty; that -- 19 with the ability to see it, so I would also be 20 support. 21 Thank you. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Ready for a 23 Motion? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Member -- or 2 Chairman Fischer, I would like to make a Motion 3 in Case: 05-108, filed by Randy Penner and the 4 Community Financial Credit Union, located at 5 43350 Arena Drive; that their request for the 6 variance for the two sign variances be approved 7 based on what the Petitioner presented to this 8 Board this evening. Also on the location of the 9 building and the height of the berm, making it 10 difficult to see the building from the Road, as 11 indicated in earlier discussion; and for -- 12 therefore, for building identification -- for 13 business identification. 14 MEMBER BAUER: Second. 15 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 17 Motion and a second. 18 Any other discussion? 19 Member Shroyer? 20 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you. 21 Mr. Penner, the sign that's on 22 the side of the building, currently, the 23 banner type sign that's up there -- 24 MR. PENNER: The mock up that
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1 we have? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Correct. 3 Is that the size that you're 4 requesting? 5 MR. PENNER: Yes, uh-huh. 6 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 7 I'm looking at this. When I 8 visited your area -- because the pictures 9 don't do it justice, the pictures you 10 included in our packet. Some of them are 11 somewhat focused on the road and not the 12 sign; so it's a little fuzzy I anyway. 13 Absolutely -- driving north, 14 the sign is very easy to see, the monument 15 sign. Driving south, it is totally hidden 16 by the berm and the hedge that's there for 17 the landscaping. I do want to ask, is there 18 a reason why you selected brushed aluminum 19 free-standing letters? 20 MR. PENNER: Just probably for 21 the looks. I thought it was very good 22 looking. It was professional. It wasn't 23 obtrusive, overbearing, anything like that. 24 We thought the visibility was good enough at
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1 the size that we chose -- which is a little 2 bit beyond the minimum or the maximum 3 required. 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, it is 5 classy, that type. But -- and you realize, 6 though, if it's a brighter color with a white 7 background or something like that -- 8 MR. PENNER: Sure. 9 MEMBER SHROYER: -- it could be 10 even more visible. 11 MR. PENNER: Correct, right, 12 agree. 13 MEMBER SHROYER: Looking at 14 it -- looking at the picture -- the pictures are 15 very good, the color renderings at any rate -- 16 are very good. But looking at the sign, when I 17 was viewing that, I was trying to picture in my 18 mind the size; and thinking that it probably was 19 a mockup of what you're requesting, I actually 20 think it's too big. I think it's too much, too 21 obtrusive. 22 In other words, what I'm 23 saying, I'm in total agreement that a sign 24 is needed on the side of the building; but I
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1 think a sign that would be within our 40 2 foot -- square foot that's permitted, would 3 still be very easily readable from the 4 street, and would be just as classy in the 5 brushed aluminum. 6 So I would be in support of 7 the additional sign, but I am opposed to 8 granting the additional size of this sign. 9 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 10 Member Shroyer. 11 And I thank you for saying 12 that as well as, because that's where I was 13 going to go with it, too when I drove by. I 14 definitely agree there is a sign that is 15 needed. I think it looks great, but I think 16 that 53 is too much. I think they could 17 live within the Ordinance, as far as the 40 18 square feet go. 19 Member Bauer? 20 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 21 Al, what's the size of that 22 that they got up there? The 23 (unintelligible) shows the mock-up? 24 MR. AMOLSCH: The mock-up or
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1 the ground sign? 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: The mock up. 3 MR. AMOLSCH: Well, I'm 4 assuming it's the 53 square foot that 5 they're requesting. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: It's 53 7 square feet. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Member -- 9 Are you all set, Member Bauer? 10 MEMBER BAUER: Yes, thank you. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Member 12 Gronachan? 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Allen, is 14 part of the increase for 40 feet, is the emblem, 15 perhaps? Is it measured from the tip to the tip; 16 does that play into this 53 square foot? 17 MR. AMOLSCH: That's correct. 18 The Ordinance requires a 19 parallelogram, circle, or triangle be drawn 20 around the entire sign area. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So is it safe 22 to say -- because you know how good I am on 23 this -- if that was removed or if it -- just it 24 was shrunk, reduced, thank you -- just the emblem
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1 was reduced, would the letters stay the same and 2 that would fit in -- 3 MR. AMOLSCH: Hard to say 4 without having a drawing. 5 What the Board could do, if it 6 was their desire, to grant a variance for 40 7 square feet and have them fix the sign into 8 the box. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 10 MR. PENNER: May I throw up a 11 more recent picture of the mock up? 12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 13 MR. PENNER: I'm not sure how 14 to work this. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: You just set it 16 down and they'll go ahead and turn it on. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yeah, I can't 18 hardly see it. 19 MR. PENNER: Can't hardly -- 20 that's -- 21 MEMBER FISCHER: As Member 22 Shroyer commented, it's -- you cannot see it 23 because of the size; you cannot see it because of 24 the choice of --
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: The letter. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: -- the 3 lettering. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, there you 5 go. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: I can see it 7 now. 8 MR. PENNER: Closer -- close 9 up. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Yeah. 11 There is a Motion and a second 12 on the table. 13 Although, there's been some 14 comments about the size, is there any other 15 discussion? 16 Then we'll call the roll, 17 please, on the current Motion, which is to 18 approve as requested. 19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: No.
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1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 2 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 4 MEMBER SHROYER: No. 5 GAIL BACKUS: And Member 6 Sanghvi? 7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 8 GAIL BACKUS: Motion the passes 9 four to two. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Your Motion has 11 been granted. Please see the Building 12 Department. Good luck. 13 MR. PENNER: All right. 14 Thank you. 15 16 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll move 17 along to Case Number: 05-110, filed by K.G. 18 Albers of Diversified Development, LLC. The 19 applicant is requesting to erect an off premise 20 sign -- 21 Now, this is an extension, as 22 well? 23 Yes. So it's not to erect 24 one, but to extend the current one that we
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1 approved last year. The applicant is 2 requesting for the sign to be north of 3 Twelve Mile and west of Novi Road. 4 Can you please raise your 5 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear 7 or affirm that the information that you're about 8 to give in the matter before you is the truth? 9 MR. ALBERS: Yes. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Please state 12 your name and address and proceed. 13 MR. ALBERS: My name is Ken 14 Albers. I'm with Diversified Land 15 Development. Our address is 43691 12 and a 16 half Mile Road; here tonight to request and 17 extension to the variance for our off 18 premise sign for our development, Charneth 19 Fen Condominiums. 20 The sign is located on the 21 southwest corner of 12 and a half Mile and 22 Novi Roads. The sign is both smaller and 23 lower than is permitted by Ordinance. The 24 size of the sign, the height, the placement,
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1 was determined by driving back and forth on 2 Novi Road to see what would be less 3 disruptive for raising your head for vision; 4 and the size to take the extra time to read 5 a smaller sign. 6 Our site's unique. It's one 7 of the few remaining dirt roads in Novi. 8 It's -- we don't have the advantage on being 9 on a major thoroughfare or even a smaller 10 paved road. The road's not very inviting to 11 even drive down. Nobody really uses it as 12 an alternate or ordinary route. 13 Without this variance, we're 14 pretty much at a disadvantage to the other 15 developments that do front on major roads or 16 paved roads. 17 And based on these hardships 18 and the location of our site, we're asking 19 for the extension of the variance. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir. 21 Is there anyone in the 22 audience that wishes to comment on this 23 case? 24 Seeing none, in this case,
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1 there were eight notices mailed; zero 2 approvals and zero objections. 3 Building Department, any 4 comments? 5 MR. AMOLSCH: No comments. 6 MR. SAVEN: Have you had any 7 complaints on this one? 8 MR. AMOLSCH: No, none. 9 MR. SAVEN: All set. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 11 And sir, go ahead and if you 12 want to tell us the percent of occupancy? 13 MR. ALBERS: We have 21 units. 14 We have three deposits currently. We're 15 just putting the finishing touches on our 16 models now. Very positive response to the 17 development. It's a unique development. 18 It's going to go real quick. And so, we've 19 have got 21 units on it. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: So 15 percent, 21 at most? 22 MR. ALBERS: Approximately, 23 yes. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.
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1 Board Members? 2 Member Sanghvi? 3 MEMBER SANGHVI: I think this 4 is again a situation where they need an 5 extension of their sign. They seem to be 6 doing well, and I have no problem extending 7 their current sign for another year. 8 MEMBER BAUER: I'll second it. 9 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 11 Motion and a second. 12 Any other discussion? 13 Member Shroyer? 14 MEMBER SHROYER: I have a 15 question for the City, if I may. 16 Has there been -- and since 17 this is in the past -- whereas something 18 similar to this as occurred, and this 19 gentleman that just indicated that they're 20 going to go fast -- so I got to hurry up and 21 buy one, right? 22 MR. ALBERS: Yes. 23 MEMBER SHROYER: They're going 24 to go fast. Where they sold them like the first
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1 two months or three months, and then we're stuck 2 with this sign for the next nine months. 3 So have we ever made a Motion 4 that would indicate something like a year or 5 when -- 6 MR. SAVEN: Whichever comes 7 first. 8 MEMBER SHROYER: Whichever comes 9 first. Exactly. Because we're not here to have 10 advertisement. And once your units are sold 11 (unintelligible) (interposing.) 12 MR. ALBERS: We'll be the 13 first one to take it down as soon as they're 14 sold out. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Do you wish to 16 propose a friendly amendment to the Motion that 17 would say one year or sold out, whichever comes 18 first? I'm guessing Member Sanghvi would allow 19 that. 20 MEMBER SHROYER: I would like to 21 do that. 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: Oh, your 23 request is granted, sir. 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you very
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1 much. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: And the 3 seconder agrees. 4 There's a Motion and a second. 5 No further discussion -- 6 MEMBER SHROYER: No, I'm sorry. 7 I had another question. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Shroyer? 9 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay, thank 10 you. 11 I just wanted to clarify the 12 approval letter that we received from E and 13 M? 14 MR. ALBERS: Yes. 15 MEMBER SHROYER: The old letter 16 described an expiration of the permit, which 17 occurred prior to 12-6-05. 18 That has been extended, as 19 well, or -- it talks about a current 20 property owner. I assume E and M is still 21 the current property owner? 22 MR. ALBERS: Yes. 23 MEMBER SHROYER: I just want to 24 make sure you don't get caught in a no-man's land
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1 where the property gets sold, and then you're 2 told to take down the sign. 3 MR. ALBERS: Yeah, we have a 4 sub-agreement with the owner that if -- in 5 the event that he sells it, we would take it 6 down. 7 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 8 MR. ALBERS: That's just 9 between us and the owners. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. 11 Thank you. 12 That's all I have, thank you, 13 sir. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Very good 15 question. 16 Anything else? 17 Ms. Backus, will you please 18 call the roll. 19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 22 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 23 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye.
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1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 5 GAIL BACKUS: And Member 6 Krieger? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 8 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes 9 six to zero. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance 11 has been granted for one year. Good luck to you 12 and please see the Building Department? 13 MR. ALBERS: Thank you. 14 MEMBER SANGHVI: Hopefully 15 you'll be sold out. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: And I'm 17 guessing Member Shroyer will be there to take one 18 more off your hands. 19 20 21 22 Move along to Case Number: 23 05-113, filed by Dixie Cut Stone and Marble 24 for a temporary use permit to allow outdoor
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1 storage on a adjacent parcel at 25180 Seeley 2 Road. The property is zoned I-1 and located 3 east of Seeley Road; north of Grand River 4 Road. 5 Do you want to raise your 6 right hand and be sworn in by our secretary, 7 please. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you 9 solemnly swear or affirm that the information 10 that you're about to give in the matter before 11 you is the truth? 12 MR. JODAN: Yes, it is. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: And if you 15 could state your name and address and proceed 16 with your case. 17 MR. JODAN: My name is Ben 18 Jodan. I'm the general sales manager with 19 pen Dixie Cut Stone and Marble. I live at 20 24443 Surfside in Novi. 21 I'd like to echo the comments, 22 by the way, of the couple that were here at 23 the -- during the public remarks. We've 24 been members of the community -- my family,
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1 as well as Dixie Cut Stone -- for many years 2 now. Quiet members of the community; but, 3 only recently have we become involved 4 members of the community; again, both 5 personally and professionally. 6 And I will say from my -- from 7 the beginning, my dealings with Council 8 Member Lynn Paul, going in and speaking with 9 Clay Pierson when this whole situation 10 arose; and especially Gail, there, who's 11 been just dynamite and shown a lot of 12 professionalism. So regardless, I do 13 appreciate all the help and support that 14 we've gotten up to this point. 15 But, as I stated in my letter 16 to the Board initially, Dixie Cut Stone 17 finds itself in a bit of a dilemma. As a 18 company, approximately 40 percent of our 19 sales come from what's -- what we refer to 20 as architectural landscape products. Almost 21 none comes from our Novi location, however, 22 which is a shame, considering the 23 demographics of this area. 24 The reason for the discrepancy
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1 is that we don't have the ability to stock 2 that type of product in a cost effective 3 manner; meaning, by utilizing outside 4 storage. We inquired about the property on 5 Seeley Road because of it's proximity to our 6 location. 7 The owner was unsuccessful in 8 his efforts to sell the property due to the 9 lack of exposure, and very poor access to 10 the property. This property suits our needs 11 perfectly, by allowing us to grown our 12 business; and we believe it also suits the 13 needs of the City, by allowing Dixie to 14 improve what has historically been sort of 15 an eyesore to the adjacent businesses. 16 We strongly believe that this 17 is essential in order for us to reach our 18 potential in Novi; a community that I reside 19 in and a community that we'd like to do 20 business in for many years to come. 21 So, that's all. 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir. 23 In this case, ten notices were 24 mailed; with one approval and zero
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1 objections. 2 Is there anyone in the 3 audience that wishes to comment? 4 Ms. Krieger, are you sure? 5 MEMBER FISCHER: All righty. 6 With no one else in the 7 audience, we'll close that portion of the 8 hearing, and ask Madam Secretary if you 9 could please read the correspondence, the 10 approval that we had. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: This is from 12 the Hall Group, LLC, J. Dixon Hall. 13 Is this the Petitioner? 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Would this -- 15 MR. JODAN: He is our 16 landlord. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, this is 18 the landlord, okay. 19 MR. JODAN: Yeah. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We strongly 21 support the request variance and have no 22 objection. We'd also support a long term 23 variance if discussed such a request. Use is not 24 detrimental to our property.
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1 And that, again, is signed by 2 J. Dixon Hall, manager at 40200 Grand River 3 Avenue, Suite 400. 4 MR. JODAN: Landlord and 5 neighbor, I should point out. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: All right. 7 And Building Department? 8 MR. SAVEN: Just a couple 9 questions that I have. 10 MR. JODAN: Uh-huh. 11 MR. SAVEN: Number one is that, 12 normally we deal with a temporary use permit 13 based upon what I can deal with as far as the 14 amount of time is concerned. This is one's a 15 rather unique situation in that -- in that number 16 one, the property -- the property that he's 17 requesting to have outdoor storage on is not 18 located immediately adjacent to his property, but 19 it goes through another property which is -- also 20 had access to Dixie Cut Stone; but they're 21 planning on leasing this property at the rear of 22 an existing business that has outdoor storage as 23 it exists now -- 24 MR. JODAN: That's correct.
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1 MR. SAVEN: -- correct? 2 Okay. That's number one. 3 Number two, the only other 4 issue that I have is I would like to point 5 out to the Board, there's a proposed gate 6 that is being called for on this fence. And 7 what I'd like -- what I'd like this 8 gentleman to explain is how this is going to 9 operate? Is that going to be your access to 10 that site to obtain the stone or whatever. 11 It's not really on your property, but it -- 12 technically you're going to have access to 13 this. 14 MR. JODAN: Correct. 15 As you can see from this 16 sketch is right now the only access is 17 through Automated Control Systems, which is 18 the owner of the property. And there's a 19 driveway just -- next to his property, a 20 fairly narrow one that leads into that. The 21 own way for us to be able to access it with 22 a fork-lift or whatever the case maybe; 23 whatever method we would use to move these 24 pallets of natural stone. That's what we're
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1 talking about here, would be to literally 2 drive all the way around onto Grand River 3 and onto Seeley, which obviously would not 4 be legal. 5 We've got approximately a 6 hundred yards or so to cover -- slightly 7 less, perhaps -- as we drive north out of 8 the rear of our building, and we would need 9 to access the property for -- not only for 10 our own purposes; but the goal would be for 11 customers to be able to go back there and 12 view their stone, as well. 13 We'd like to improve the 14 property by putting little vignettes, if you 15 will, patios, that sort of thing attached 16 to -- not -- I shouldn't say attached, just 17 in front of the steel building that's there. 18 So the idea is to make it a little more 19 homey, I guess, as it were. And really 20 that's the only way we could easily access 21 it, would be through a gate on the south 22 side of the property. 23 In fact, if you'd like, by the 24 way, I do have few photos that show the view
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1 kind of from Grand River. That's one of our 2 contentions is that this property can't even 3 be seen from Grand River. 4 MR. SAVEN: I think that would 5 be good for the Board, if they could look at it. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Pass them 7 along, starting with Mr. Shroyer. 8 MR. JODAN: Just put them on 9 here? 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Oh, yeah, 11 that's fine, too. 12 MR. JODAN: This is the view 13 looking north, obviously, on Grand River. 14 The property is directly north of us, and 15 it's really completely out of sight on 16 this -- on this photo. So, we think -- we 17 think that helps our cause a little bit 18 there, although we're going to do a lot to 19 improve the property. It's a shame no one 20 will actually see those improvements. This 21 is -- if I may? 22 MEMBER FISCHER: Please, 23 continue. 24 MR. JODAN: This is actually
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1 on the property looking back south towards 2 our building, which shows a bit of the over 3 growth, and what we hope to clear out of 4 there. And again, to improve what has been 5 quite an eyesore up to this point. 6 And then lastly, this just 7 shows the storage building that's on the 8 property there; that -- which you don't see 9 on here, there's a fair amount of rust on 10 the roof of the building. We plan on 11 repainting the building, repairing, 12 whatever's necessary to be repaired on 13 there. And then the owner of the property 14 is also repairing the fence -- which 15 although it doesn't show up in any of these 16 photos too well, is in disrepair. It's 17 quite rusty, and that's all going to be 18 repaired and brought up to snuff, so. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 20 No more comments from 21 Mr. Saven? 22 Open it up for board 23 discussion. 24 Member Sanghvi?
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1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you, 2 Mr. Chairman. 3 I think this temporary use 4 probably is going to be a blessing in 5 disguise for that piece of land. It's not 6 doing any good to anybody at the present 7 time; and it doesn't look -- doesn't appear 8 to be in good repair either. So, by 9 clearing it out and making a better use of 10 the property like this, will be a win-win 11 situation for everybody concerned; and I 12 have no difficulty in supporting this 13 application. 14 Thank you. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 16 Member Sanghvi. 17 Member Gronachan? 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Good evening. 19 MR. JODAN: Hi. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm looking 21 at the aerial map. I don't know if you have a 22 copy of the aerial map -- 23 MR. JODAN: I don't have a 24 copy, but I'm pretty familiar with it.
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1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 2 We have your building marked, 3 and then there appears to be a lot between 4 Dixie Cut Material and where you're going 5 for this storage. Am I looking at this 6 correctly? 7 MR. JODAN: That's correct. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I drove out 9 there today, and I was very confused, so -- 10 MR. JODAN: Yes. 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: How are you 12 going to get -- and how are you getting to that 13 property again? 14 MR. JODAN: Through that lot. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And who owns 16 that lot? 17 MR. JODAN: That would be a 18 gentleman by the name or Ron Bruer, who owns 19 the building directly south and west of the 20 that, of that property; as well as the 21 building to the east. 22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And so -- 23 MR. JODAN: All of which are 24 neighbors that I've spoken to and certainly
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1 given their approval. 2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I 3 apologize if I'm duplicating the request, but is 4 there a letter in here from him agreeing to this, 5 that you're going to have access? 6 MR. JODAN: The letter is long 7 overdue. Unfortunately, he's out of the 8 Country right now. So I spoke to him and he 9 has committed on more than one occasion that 10 the letter would be coming; but his concern, 11 of course, is for his tenants. And I've 12 knocked on doors of tenants and they've 13 certainly given verbal approval. They're 14 more than happy to have somebody doing 15 something to that property, as you can 16 imagine. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: If he chose 18 not to let you gain access into that back 19 property, what would happen then? Then you would 20 have to go all the way down Grand River, down 21 Seeley through that little driveway? 22 MR. JODAN: That's -- well, we 23 wouldn't be able to access it certainly, 24 with our fork-lift. It would strictly be
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1 through Seeley with our trucks; and we'd 2 have to bring customers there that way, as 3 well. So my conversation with him was such 4 that his tenants currently access their 5 buildings through our parking lot and the 6 parking lot owned by the Hall Group there; 7 and they've had a long standing good working 8 relationship, those two landlords have. 9 And frankly, it was sort of a 10 gentlemen's agreement that -- it wasn't 11 necessarily for his tenants to circumvent 12 our lot in order to, you know, to access 13 their buildings. So -- 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I 15 apologize. I'm not fully aware of your business, 16 but how long have you been in Novi? 17 MR. JODAN: We've been in that 18 building for approximately nine years. 19 We've been in business since 1960. We're 20 based out of Bridgeport. We're actually the 21 largest natural stone dealer in the State. 22 Our core business is marble and granite for 23 counter tops; we also do limestone. And as 24 I said, a good chunk of our business is in
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1 the architectural stone products; that would 2 be like flagstone, brick pavers, that sort 3 of thing; but we don't have th ability to 4 sell that here, so -- up till now, 5 hopefully. 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So by 7 gathering this outside storage, you're hoping to 8 basically expand your Novi business; is that 9 correct? 10 MR. JODAN: Yes, without a 11 doubt. 12 That business requires us to 13 have the product in stock. As a rule, 14 landscapers, masons, who do that sort of 15 work don't like to wait for product to be 16 shipped from -- in some cases, several hours 17 a way; depending on where we have the 18 product housed. So it's really essential 19 that we have easy access to that, in order 20 to be able to take advantage of that, so. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Have you 22 thought about relocating within Novi? Looking 23 for a site on one place that would fit 24 altogether?
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1 MR. JODAN: We have. We've 2 considered relocating within Novi, as well 3 as outside of Novi. 4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 5 MR. JODAN: Frankly, we'd 6 rather stay where we are. But as you know, 7 the cost of building space is not cheap in 8 this area -- that's one of the reason why, 9 you know, the -- this works so well for us. 10 It's the path of least resistance, if you 11 will. You know, my understanding is that 12 we'd have to get into a heavy industrial 13 area in order to allow for this type of 14 thing. 15 Frankly, everything we've 16 checked into -- we've spoken to realtors and 17 the properties we've looked at, just don't 18 have the frontage that we require, because 19 we do run a retail business out of there, as 20 well. So to sort of be tucked back into an 21 industrial park or something like that, just 22 doesn't suit our needs very well. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm reluctant 24 to support this without having some verification
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1 from the other property owner. I mean, this is a 2 pretty big request. It's pretty unusual. 3 Basically, the bottom line is that, you've out 4 grown the area that you're in. I mean, that's 5 basically what's -- based on what you're telling 6 me is that you've gotten -- your business has out 7 grown what you're doing. 8 And in order to expand it, you 9 have to do this. But I'm reluctant -- I'm 10 getting into -- maybe I should check with 11 the attorney before I go any further. 12 Is it our responsibility to 13 have some sort of verification from this 14 property owner in the middle, if we go ahead 15 and grant this, that we show proof that that 16 property owner has allowed him to gain 17 access to that property; or is that going to 18 be a problem or can you offer me some 19 guidance on that? 20 MS. OZGA: Well -- he is -- the 21 Petitioner is the one who has the burden of proof 22 in this matter. The Board does not have -- have 23 to prove anything here. 24 Now you're asking could he get
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1 into a situation where the property owner 2 will not allow him access? 3 Now, did you say that you 4 wouldn't be able to use that property at all 5 if this property in the middle does not give 6 you permission? 7 MR. JODAN: We wouldn't pursue 8 the leasing of the property, no, not at this 9 point, if that was an issue. Frankly, I 10 wouldn't be persuing this at all; especially 11 if it's -- you know, we've sort of gone back 12 and forth initially as to whether or not 13 this is a temporary use or a permanent 14 thing. I can assure you, any lease that we 15 sign would not be temporary. So, we 16 wouldn't even be requesting this, if we 17 weren't real comfortable with our ability to 18 access the property. 19 I would hate to be stuck a 20 year down the road into a five year lease, 21 and suddenly, someone pulled a -- you know, 22 in this case -- the owner of the parking lot 23 sort of pulled the rug out from under us, 24 and say, no, you can no longer access this
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1 property. 2 So in other words, we're 3 comfortable with what we've been told up to 4 this point; other ways we would have never 5 persued it, frankly. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Saven? 7 MR. SAVEN: Yeah, just a comment 8 here. 9 If you've been out to the 10 site, you would have seen that they have the 11 asphalt that goes all the way out to the 12 fence area. 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 14 MR. SAVEN: Two issues at hand, 15 is like the gentleman said, number one -- and 16 like the -- what the Board's alluding to is the 17 fact that number one, is that the owners of that 18 secondary property which is adjacent to them, 19 between that -- his business and the fence -- 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 21 MR. SAVEN: You're going to have 22 ingress and egress going on back and forth 23 through that parking lot. I would certainly have 24 concerns for the residents or the people who are
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1 frequenting that particular business; to insure 2 that their comfort level is there -- number one; 3 to have that ingress and egress going back and 4 forth through that parking lot. 5 They are, in fact, you know, 6 comfortable with that particular situation; 7 because the fence is going to have an 8 opening in that particular area. No less 9 intrusive, hopefully, is going to take 10 place, so we're not going to have problems 11 with ingress and egress to the site. That's 12 number one. 13 Number two, definitely the 14 property owners has an input on this thing. 15 If the Board is looking at 16 moving in that direction, those are the two 17 issues that I'd make as part of the Motion; 18 obtain the letters, agreements, and things 19 of this nature, which are necessary for him 20 to conduct the business. 21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you, 22 Mr. Saven. You've made it as clear as mud now. 23 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No, you have
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1 cleared it up. 2 I'm reluctant to vote on this 3 this evening, and I'll tell you why. I 4 would like to see the agreement of this 5 property owner. And the reason why -- my 6 reasoning behind this, is I can appreciate 7 the fact that the Petitioner is not going to 8 enter into this kind of a lease agreement on 9 and on. 10 However, we've got other 11 residents involved. And, I don't -- I want 12 to make sure that there are no -- first, 13 that everybody involved is going have a 14 clear picture, so I would like to see 15 letters from those business and/or residents 16 or whatever is in here that they're 17 approving and accepting this use -- this is 18 a major change. 19 MR. JODAN: Uh-huh. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: And I -- my 21 recommendation would be to table this this 22 evening to get further documentation from those 23 other residents and/or businesses showing support 24 of this, so they have a full understanding; and
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1 to come back to the Board next month. 2 Is the owner of the property 3 going to be back in the Country? 4 MR. JODAN: Yes, that's the 5 plan. He was supposed to been back by now. 6 Apparently he was delayed, so -- and again, 7 I never received the letter. 8 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 9 I would be more comfortable. 10 I'm reluctant -- I would not be able to 11 support this this evening, without that 12 additional information to cover all my 13 basis. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 15 Member Gronachan. 16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 17 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Bauer? 18 MEMBER BAUER: All of your 19 (unintelligible) material is going to be actually 20 enclosed in that barn or storage shed or -- 21 MR. JODAN: No. Our intention 22 is that a good percentage of it will 23 actually be outside -- 24 MEMBER BAUER: Outside?
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1 MR. JODAN: -- of that, yeah. 2 Yeah, we'll use that probably 3 to store the equipment to move it, and a few 4 other things that can't be exposed to the 5 elements. But the rest of the products are 6 designed to go outside; so, frankly it 7 wouldn't make much sense for it to store 8 it -- for us to store it inside. Clearly, 9 it's much less expensive to -- outside 10 storage is much less expensive than -- 11 MEMBER BAUER: What I have here 12 is it's proposed storage area is to be enclosed. 13 MR. JODAN: I would suspect by 14 that they're referring to the fence all the 15 way around. But other than that, no. The 16 building certainly would be utilized. But 17 the fact that it's only 2500 square feet 18 roughly would not allow us enough room to 19 put, you know, a decent amount of stuff -- 20 of landscaping stone in there. 21 And again, these are products 22 that are palletized, essentially housed in a 23 wire basket that's attached to a pallet, and 24 are moved very easily.
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1 MEMBER BAUER: I don't believe I 2 would vote for approving it. 3 Thank you. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 5 Member Bauer. 6 Member Krieger? 7 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 8 I would support the endeavor 9 of this, but -- oh, I wouldn't want it -- I 10 have a question to begin with. 11 How long that you planned to 12 have this temporary? Was it a year or what 13 you had in mind? 14 MR. JODAN: The lease on our 15 existing building is up in a year from May. 16 Our intention was to sign a 17 lease on this property that would coincide 18 with that; and at that point when we -- 19 renew both leases at the same time for the 20 five years; that's typical for us, so. 21 MEMBER KRIEGER: So then -- also 22 your gentlemen's agreement, if they could -- 23 everyone -- every owner in writing would support 24 that, and I would agree to table, so that we
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1 could see that. So that in the future if there 2 was some misunderstanding, that it could be shown 3 in that -- that would be helpful. 4 MR. JODAN: Okay. 5 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. 7 Mr. Saven, I have a question. 8 Looking at this section of the 9 Zoning Ordinance, it talks about -- not 10 instances such as this, but normal temporary 11 use permits, for -- they're allowed for two 12 years in undeveloped; and one year in 13 developed sections of the City; is that 14 correct? 15 MR. SAVEN: That's correct. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: What -- would 17 this be considered developed or undeveloped? 18 MR. SAVEN: Definitely 19 developed. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 21 Given that, I'll would be 22 willing to support the request for one year. 23 I can understand the questions about the lot 24 in between, and I understand those concerns
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1 given by other Board Members. However, I 2 don't think that it's a good move by this 3 Board or the City to get involved in those 4 types of questions. 5 I would request that the 6 Motion to approve be contingent upon an 7 agreement with that owner, Mr. Bruer, in 8 between. However, getting too entangled in 9 those endeavors is not a very -- it's not 10 the business of the Zoning Board to get 11 involved in those. We're not the Court 12 system. 13 So I would be willing to 14 support this for one year. See how it goes, 15 contingent on a written approval from 16 Mr. Bruer before anything were stored 17 outside. I think that this is a great thing 18 for the area. I've driven by there. I've 19 even gotten speeding tickets down that road. 20 So, it does need to be cleaned up. I look 21 forward to seeing what could be done with 22 it. 23 That said, what type of, you 24 know, screening would you do as far as -- in
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1 the I-2 district, outside storage has to be 2 screened with a wall or berm or heavy 3 plantings. 4 Do you plan on any type of 5 screening, natural screening, such as that? 6 MR. JODAN: We've discussed 7 things, anything from Arbor Vites to vines, 8 and even the method where it's a weaving 9 type product that you weave in and out of 10 the fence with -- 11 MEMBER FISCHER: Slats. 12 MR. JODAN: Thank you. 13 With my question being, would 14 that be something that we would have to do 15 on all sides -- well, there's nothing on the 16 north side of the property at all, so you're 17 not screening it from anything. The west 18 side of the property is the owner of that 19 property, so, I guess that would be my 20 question. 21 MEMBER FISCHER: My main concern 22 would be Seeley Road. 23 MR. JODAN: Seeley Road, you 24 wouldn't see it, because the property
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1 owner's building is in front of it. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay, okay. 3 MR. JODAN: So at no point is 4 any of that property going to be seen by -- 5 through a road. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 7 MR. JODAN: The only way you 8 see it is to get behind our building into 9 the parking lot that's directly south of 10 there. That's the only place where it can 11 really be seen, frankly, that southern 12 exposure. And once you get into the parking 13 lot. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 15 And also given that it's a 16 land locked area, just as you stated, pretty 17 much, I think that provides another case of 18 a hardship. So I don't think it alters the 19 area at all, this would. I think it would 20 pick up the area. So I'm in definite 21 support with those conditions put on the 22 Petitioner. 23 Mr. Shroyer? 24 MEMBER SHROYER: Thank you,
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1 Mr. Chair. 2 I agree with the Chairman with 3 his comments. And I will mention, even if 4 you go behind the building on -- off Seeley 5 Road, there's a big ugly berm with trees on 6 it. There's a big ugly berm with trees on 7 it -- repeat that part -- which actually 8 could be cleaned up, too, if the owner would 9 be a little more conscientious, that might 10 be nice. 11 I agree that it's not really 12 our responsibility in regard to obtaining 13 approvals. He's verbally indicated there's 14 no objections from Post Electric; no 15 objections from Ronald Bruer; obviously, 16 none from Hall Group, because they've been 17 in favor of it, etc. 18 The one question I would have 19 that would kickback to our attorney, if I 20 may, is if we were to agree on something 21 like this and someone was in get injured on 22 the property that was between his property 23 and the area that we're approving, is there 24 any liability issues that could come back on
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1 the City? 2 MS. OZGA: At this point I'm not 3 aware of any. We can look into this situation a 4 little bit more. If you would like, you know, a 5 more formal opinion on that; if you were to table 6 it to the next meeting, we could look into that a 7 little bit more. At this point, I'm not aware, 8 but I would like to look into that question a 9 little bit more. 10 MEMBER SHROYER: That would be 11 my only concern, because this is a unique 12 situation, and we're are dealing with something 13 that's a little different. 14 Mr. Saven, are you aware of 15 anything like this? 16 MR. SAVEN: I will indicate to 17 you that this is -- although I have lot of 18 respect for this gentleman, anything verbal in 19 this particular case, is one that I can't take to 20 heart here. Everything we do is in a 21 professional manner, and I would suggest we stay 22 with this particular issue. I know that you 23 talked about Mr. Bruer, himself, being -- waiting 24 for that particular information.
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1 Yes, we need to get this in 2 writing. You got to bear in mind, this is 3 ingress and egress through that site for a 4 business that he is operating. And those 5 businesses that are adjacent have people who 6 are frequenting that business, and they have 7 to become aware. Duly noted, too, is the 8 fact that they are aware that storage is 9 going to take place. A letter drafted, 10 storage is going to take place; we'll be 11 having access to -- through this particular 12 area; and that this is not going -- this 13 something that they don't have any problem 14 with, or something along that line. 15 But I definitely, definitely 16 want to see this in writing. 17 I'm sorry. 18 MEMBER SHROYER: Well, with that 19 being the case then -- and especially hearing 20 from our attorney that she would like to check 21 into it a little bit farther, I would like to 22 make a Motion we do table this activity, Case 23 Number 05-113, and -- to be put back on the 24 agenda next month, which would give the applicant
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1 time to get a letter of approval from Mr. Bruer, 2 and we can move forward from then. And hopefully 3 we'll have a response back from our attorney, as 4 well. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Support. 6 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman, I 7 would ask that -- I know we talked about a month, 8 but I think you should give this gentleman some 9 latitude for two months, based upon the 10 information that can go back and forth; and 11 whether he can get it fast enough to get back to 12 the Board, so that we're not putting any time 13 restraints on this gentleman. 14 MR. JODAN: Well, I suspect the 15 letter's probably won't be sitting on my 16 desk tomorrow morning, with my luck, from 17 the owner, but. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll table it 19 for up to two months. If you have the 20 information by the deadline for February, then 21 we'll put you as the first case in February; if 22 not -- 23 MR. JODAN: Okay. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: -- the first
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1 case in March. 2 MR. JODAN: Fair enough. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: I'll make that 4 a part of an amendment to the Motion. 5 The seconder agrees? 6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 8 Motion and a second. 9 Please call the roll, 10 Ms. Backus. 11 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 12 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer? 16 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 18 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 20 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: No. 23 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five 24 to one.
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1 MR. JODAN: Okay. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: With those 3 conditions, you're all set. I think -- if you 4 want to talk to Mr. Saven, I think he has a good 5 idea of where we're going with any request that 6 we have. So we look forward to seeing you soon. 7 MR. JODAN: Okay. 8 Thank you. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you. 10 11 MEMBER FISCHER: And we'll move 12 along to other matters. 13 Mr. Saven, would you like to 14 comment on this MDEQ situation? 15 MR. SAVEN: Absolutely. 16 Thank you very much, 17 Mr. Chairman. 18 In regards to the other 19 matters with John Henry for ZBA Case: 20 05-083 that was before you earlier on. What 21 I'd like to point out is that he needed to 22 do an extension of his sanitary line to get 23 to his property. That extension requires an 24 MDEQ permit. They are not the swiftest
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1 organization around; kind of like my 2 Department; a little slow in getting things 3 taken care of. 4 But bottom line is that, it is 5 going to take some time, and he still does 6 not have that approval through the MDEQ as 7 it exists right now. He is asking for a 60 8 day extension. I believe this is reasonable 9 for your consideration, and I would ask that 10 you take that into consideration. 11 That's item number one. I do 12 have few other items, if you could -- after 13 this one. 14 MEMBER FISCHER: Sure. 15 They're normally given 90 16 days, correct? 17 MR. SAVEN: Yes. 18 MEMBER FISCHER: So 90 days from 19 January 4th would be March 4th. So I'll move to 20 approve the quest for a 60 day extension to March 21 4th for this applicant, in Case Number 05-083, 22 due to him having to go through Michigan 23 department of Environmental Quality. 24 MEMBER KRIEGER: Second.
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1 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a 2 Motion and a second. 3 Ms. Backus, would you please 4 call the roll. 5 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer? 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Aye. 7 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger? 8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. 9 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi? 10 MEMBER SANGHVI: Yes. 11 GAIL BACKUS: Member Shroyer? 12 MEMBER SHROYER: Yes. 13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan? 14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes. 15 GAIL BACKUS: And Member Bauer? 16 MEMBER BAUER: Yes. 17 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes six 18 to zero. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Saven, are 20 there -- 21 MR. SAVEN: Yes, I have three 22 other issues, and I'm going to talk fast. I know 23 everybody wants to go home. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Are they
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1 germaine to these proceedings? 2 MR. SAVEN: Absolutely. 3 MEMBER FISCHER: All right, 4 then. 5 Please proceed. 6 MR. SAVEN: This was kind of 7 unique today, in so much that we received options 8 before this Board. I think it behooves the 9 applicant to know what he wants, to bring this 10 before you without going through trying to figure 11 out, well, what we're going to do. This was -- 12 this, to mean was -- I'm sorry, but it was 13 getting me aggravated after a while; because it 14 was very hard to follow the case. 15 As far as the -- as far as the 16 sign goes, he's going to give an option to 17 reduce the size of the sign, I think that's 18 great. But for talking about placement or 19 this sign versus this sign, this is -- I 20 believe that the applicant should know 21 exactly what he wants. 22 Or If there was some direction 23 given in that particular area to stay, okay, 24 do the options and I'll live with it. But
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1 bottom line, this was very difficult for the 2 Board. I seen it. I seen it before you 3 today, and that was not fair to you guys. 4 I'll be very honest with you. 5 Number two, the issue with the 6 landscaping for the ground sign, yes. This 7 has been a problem in the past. Most of you 8 remember the three times before us issue 9 with the -- 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Boston 11 Market. 12 MR. SAVEN: What the hecks the 13 name of that gas station? 14 Sunoco. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Sunoco. 16 MR. SAVEN: That was tough. 17 This City looks to have real 18 nice stuff, okay. I mean, bottom line, we 19 want to make sure that everything's 20 pleasing; especially for a gas station. For 21 God sakes. What else can you do? Well, 22 here we had something there that was really 23 nice and all of a sudden, we're sitting 24 there trying to figure, well, you got to
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1 make this sign bigger and do this. 2 Yeah, those are issues that I 3 think -- I don't know how to address this 4 from a Planning stage, even from a Planning 5 stage is it possible. But, that's something 6 that maybe we can bring up to -- I'll bring 7 it up to Barb McBeth and talk about stuff 8 like this. 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I would like 10 to have that addressed, because I feel that -- 11 especially, such as that gas station sign, they 12 put the sign out there, and then they put the 13 growth right up next to the sign. And then -- 14 and so you're driving down, and before you know 15 it, you've got a three foot bush, and it just 16 creates -- and I think that they need to look at 17 that and it would reduce some of the request for 18 some of these variances. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Going along 20 with that, Mr. Saven, just quickly. 21 During -- in the interview, 22 City Council, often asks what can they do to 23 help us out, and we always talk about signs 24 and communication with them regarding
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1 Ordinances. 2 Can we get some type of formal 3 communication going as to working with them 4 on a process to get our thoughts to them? 5 You know, I've thrown out some ideas during 6 the interview. I know other people have, as 7 well. 8 MR. SAVEN: That's -- we could 9 do that. 10 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 11 MR. SAVEN: We could do that 12 separately, separately through my office and 13 dealing with the them. I would like the whole 14 Board to be in unison on these -- 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 16 MR. SAVEN: -- concerns. 17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 18 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 19 MEMBER FISCHER: Would you like 20 a Motion? 21 MR. SAVEN: Well, we don't need 22 a Motion. 23 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay, well. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Just like
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1 those baseball captains. 2 MEMBER SHROYER: Mr. Chair? 3 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Shroyer? 4 MEMBER SHROYER: Didn't the City 5 just recently re-elect -- not re-elect -- 6 rejuvenate the Board of Review? 7 MR. SAVEN: Just happened -- it 8 just happened today. As a matter of fact -- 9 MR. AMOLSCH: That's where I 10 was before this meeting. 11 MEMBER SHROYER: Okay. Well, 12 wouldn't that be an ideal place to pass this 13 onto? 14 MR. SAVEN: I think it would be 15 -- I think it would be a great ideal place. I 16 would like to pass it through the Planning 17 Department first, see what -- I mean, giving them 18 the opportunity to take a look at what can be 19 done by, whether it's a process, procedure, 20 whatever that we look at -- sometimes, sites are 21 so confined, that there's not too much space to 22 put things. So it becomes a little bit of a 23 problem. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, do you
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1 think -- 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Ordinance 3 Review or Board of Review? 4 MR. SAVEN: Ordinance -- 5 MEMBER SHROYER: Ordinance 6 review. 7 MR. SAVEN: For changes -- 8 MEMBER FISCHER: That's 9 different than -- okay. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Don, do you 11 think we could like write something up and make 12 it official, so they don't -- I mean, with the 13 sign Ordinance, we sent requests for a couple of 14 things and it took a very long time. So maybe if 15 we put it to writing -- in writing, send a copy 16 to Council and sent forwarded to the Board of 17 Review, then -- or Ordinance Review, it would, 18 you know, it would have like a tracking of some 19 sort. 20 MR. SAVEN: Yeah. And also a 21 long that same line, I would like to say -- I'd 22 like to start it off in a procedure which we 23 start with the flow, and if you give us that 24 opportunity to address this with the Planning
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1 Commission or the Planners to say write up front, 2 let's see what we can do to take care of this. 3 If this can be up front and let everybody know 4 what it is and takes care of the problem right 5 then and there; rather than going through the 6 whole circuit and getting everybody all tore out 7 of shape. I don't think we need to do that. I 8 think we just need to find out where the 9 problem's at and take care of it. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 11 MR. AMOLSCH: This is the time 12 to do it, because the Council has charged 13 the Ordinance Review Committee with looking 14 at the entire sign Ordinance. 15 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes. 16 MR. AMOLSCH: So now is the 17 time, if the Board wants to do something 18 like that, it's the time to do it. 19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Okay. 20 MEMBER FISCHER: And Member 21 Sanghvi? 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: As far as I'm 23 aware, Council has a Ordinance Review Committee. 24 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct.
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1 MEMBER SANGHVI: Unfortunately, 2 it hasn't been in the past very active. And that 3 is where we are to get the action. So -- and 4 that is beyond our control. So all we can do is 5 make a resolution that we'd like to meet with the 6 Ordinance Review Committee with certain of the 7 Ordinance to be reviewed A, B, C, D, E, so and 8 so. Then, I guess, the onest would be on the 9 Review Committee to respond to that and get on 10 with the job; rather than going in any other way. 11 And there's one way to try and 12 get it expedited. We need to find a number 13 of Ordinances and sign issues which we want 14 reviewed and redefined, for lack or a better 15 word, and give the list to them and say we'd 16 like to discussion this with the Ordinance 17 Review Committee. When can we meet. 18 MEMBER BAUER: I disagree. 19 We're not into changing the Ordinance. 20 MEMBER SANGHVI: We're not 21 changing Ordinances. We are requesting -- 22 MEMBER FISCHER: We can suggest 23 ones to be reviewed. I think that's warranted. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. To
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1 review it. 2 MEMBER BAUER: Each individual 3 unit. 4 MEMBER SANGHVI: It is their 5 responsibility to review it, but we can give them 6 a list of things from our perspective needs to be 7 reviewed. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Well,we'll let 9 Mr. Saven explore those options and explore what 10 we had talked about, and we'll move on to number 11 three. 12 Mr. Saven? 13 MR. SAVEN: The last and final 14 issue, the cases that you had before you, the 15 sign cases -- the ones were for extensions that 16 were looked at, you have to bear in mind where 17 we're trying to get you the information that 18 talks about the signs and why it was, it seemed 19 like it did not apply in this particular case. 20 It was -- the verbiage on it talked about a sign 21 extension, but this was the reasons why we -- 22 this variance was granted from before. 23 It is sometimes necessary and 24 recap those issues that are before you. So
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1 if it seemed like it was little off color or 2 whatever the case maybe or a little 3 difficult to understand, it's to bring 4 everybody's attention, this sign had 5 received this particular variance. 6 The one that was six foot, I 7 don't know whether that was something that 8 we beat him down on or whatever it was -- 9 MEMBER FISCHER: We did. It was 10 nine. 11 MR. SAVEN: Or something a long 12 that line. I do recall something a long that 13 line. 14 MR. AMOLSCH: He put a six 15 foot tall sign up. 16 MR. SAVEN: Rather than the nine 17 foot. 18 MR. AMOLSCH: The variance was 19 for nine feet. He chose on his own -- 20 MR. SAVEN: That was a good 21 point that was brought up, you know, that was 22 something taken into consideration. 23 MR. AMOLSCH: We have to 24 advertise it as --
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1 MR. SAVEN: We have to advertise 2 as to what the request was. And we went back to 3 the old case to see what it was. 4 MEMBER FISCHER: That makes 5 sense. 6 MR. SAVEN: Okay. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, 8 Mr. Saven. 9 And that can -- 10 Yes, Mr. Bauer? 11 MEMBER BAUER: Question. 12 You are going to find out 13 about Brent Canup being away? 14 MR. SAVEN: That's up to the 15 Board. 16 MEMBER BAUER: Oh, I thought you 17 were looking into it. 18 MR. SAVEN: That entirely up to 19 the Board and how they want to handle the 20 situation. 21 We know that -- this is 22 unusual. Tonight's case load is light, and 23 it's not something which is ordinary we had 24 before. Sometimes we deal with difficult
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1 cases, and I'm not trying to stay anything 2 that's derogatory or anything, but we need a 3 full board to make decisions. Sometimes 4 that's necessary. The fact that people are 5 going to be away for three months, that's 6 something that, you know, you as a Board, 7 should be looking at to see whether or not 8 this is troublesome to you. 9 Okay. If it's an excused 10 absence, so be it. That's all right. 11 MEMBER FISCHER: I remember at 12 some point when Member Gronachan when you were 13 Chair, I thought there was some type of rule 14 about three meetings missed within six months. 15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Right. 16 MEMBER FISCHER: I thought that 17 this had been discussed. 18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, before 19 we get into that rule. I thought Member Canup 20 expressed that he did not want to continue on the 21 Board. 22 Has anybody received his 23 formal resignation? Okay. So I think that 24 would be the first question.
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1 MR. SAVEN: I have not received 2 any formal resignation from Mr. Canup. 3 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well, and 4 that could have been my begging and pleading to 5 stay because we didn't know -- in the past 6 Council had been a little laxed on replacing 7 people promptly; and so they already have that 8 done. So -- and I'm confident that they would -- 9 if we asked Member Canup what his intentions 10 were -- which he stated at the meeting that it 11 was his intent to resign, because of his 12 traveling. 13 Maybe, we just need to confirm 14 that. So maybe a call to him, at this 15 point, and let him know that we do have a 16 full Board, and see what his option is 17 first, before we make a decision. I think 18 you're -- I think that that's what he's 19 going to stick with. Is that he's planning 20 on retiring, because of his traveling. 21 MEMBER BAUER: I agree. 22 That's what he told me. 23 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's what 24 he's told all of us. On and off the record.
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1 So I think -- 2 MR. SAVEN: That was not -- 3 that's not what I picked up here at the Board 4 meeting. That night we were asking him that 5 particular question. 6 MEMBER FISCHER: Would it really 7 fall on us, though? Or would that be a Council 8 decision, if they chose it? 9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: No, it would 10 fall on us. Then we would report it to Council. 11 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Canup was 12 trying very hard to be still part of the Board -- 13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Exactly. 14 MR. SAVEN: But still, he -- the 15 expertise that he had, the background that he had 16 was one of the things that I know the Board here 17 looked at very strongly. It is an excused 18 absence. This is something we take a look at. 19 You know, those are -- that's up to the Board. I 20 mean, if there's future from this point 21 forward -- if the three months, he has been 22 excused and then he starts missing more, then I 23 would have that as a concern. 24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I still feel
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1 that knowing what I know, and the conversations 2 that I've have had, that a call to him first 3 should be made, and then brought back to the 4 Board. 5 MR. SAVEN: If that's the 6 direction of the Board, we'll do it. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: I agree. 8 Let's have a call to 9 Mr. Canup. 10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Unless you 11 want me to fly down to Florida and go ask him 12 personally. 13 MEMBER FISCHER: If we could get 14 a call to him and then let us know at the next 15 meeting. I'd like to move on it, just because 16 February should be another interview month for 17 Council will be interviewing, if we do need to 18 replace that position. 19 So let us know in February. 20 Any other business? 21 Seeing none -- 22 MEMBER SANGHVI: I just want to 23 mention it is a very good possibility that I may 24 not be at the next meeting. I may be in
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1 California. 2 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. 3 Then you're off the Board, 4 too. 5 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I have one 6 last thing to say. 7 MEMBER FISCHER: (Unintelligibl 8 e) might not be. 9 Please proceed. 10 Member Gronachan? 11 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Thank you, 12 Chairman Fischer. 13 Friday night was the City 14 appreciation dinner, and I wanted to bring 15 some sort of recognition for the most 16 creative dancer. So I don't know if all of 17 you missed it or not, Mr. Saven won the 18 twist contest -- 19 MEMBER FISCHER: He did. 20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: -- at the 21 dance Friday night, and we just want to commend 22 you. 23 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll put that 24 on the agenda. A video tape of Mr. Saven dancing
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1 next time. 2 I'll entertain a Motion to 3 adjourn. 4 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. 5 MEMBER FISCHER: All in favor 6 say Aye? 7 BOARD MEMBERS: Aye. 8 MEMBER FISCHER: Adjourned. 9 (The meeting was adjourned at 10 9:30 p.m.) 11 - - - - - - 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24
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1 C E R T I F I C A T E 2 3 I, Machelle Billingslea-Moore, 4 do hereby certify that I have recorded 5 stenographically the proceedings had and testimony 6 taken in the above-entitled matter at the time and 7 place hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify 8 that the foregoing transcript, consisting of (139) 9 typewritten pages, is a true and correct transcript 10 of my said stenograph notes. 11 12 13 ___________________________ Machelle Billingslea-Moore, 14 Certified Shorthand Reporter 15 16 February 3, 2006. (Date)
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