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Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of the ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS, at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, Tuesday, September 13, 2005.

Justin Fischer, Chairman
Cynthia Gronachan
Frank Brennan
Siddarth Sanghvi
Linda Krieger

Don Saven, Building Department
Alan Amolsch, Ordinance Enforcement
Thomas Schultz, City Attorney
Gail Backus, ZBA Recording Secretary

Machelle Billingslea-Moore, Certified Shorthand Reporter.


1 Novi, Michigan.

2 Tuesday, September 13, 2005

3 7:30 p.m.

4 - - - - -

5 MEMBER FISCHER: I would like to

6 call the order the September, 2005, Zoning Board

7 of Appeals meeting.

8 Ms. Backus, will you please call

9 the roll.

10 GAIL BACKUS: Member Bauer,

11 absent the excused.

12 Member Brennan?


14 GAIL BACKUS: Member Canup,

15 absent excused.

16 Member Fischer?


18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


24 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.




1 Five members are present. We do have a quorum.

2 The meeting is now in session.

3 I would like to go over a couple

4 of rules of conduct. Please turn off all cell

5 phones and pagers at this particular time. And

6 also, please remember that individuals will have

7 five minutes to address the Board; and groups

8 addressing the Board will have ten minutes.

9 There are some other rules of the conduct on the

10 agenda. Please feel free to look over them.

11 The Zoning Board of Appeals is a

12 Hearing Board empowered by the Novi City Charter

13 to hear appeals seeking variances from the

14 application of the Novi Zoning think Ordinance.

15 It takes a vote of at least four members to

16 approve a variance request; and a vote of the

17 majority present to deny a variance.

18 Tonight we do have at this time

19 five members present. And since a full Board is

20 not present, those Petitioners who which to table

21 their request until next meeting, or when a full

22 Board is present, may do so at this time.

23 Is there anyone that does wish

24 to table their case?




1 Seeing none, we'll move along to

2 the agenda.

3 Are there any changes to the

4 agenda?


6 MEMBER FISCHER: Seeing none,

7 I'll entertain a Motion to approve as submitted?

8 MR. SANGHVI: So moved.


10 MEMBER FISCHER: It's been moved

11 and seconded.

12 All in favor say Aye?


14 MEMBER FISCHER: The agenda is

15 approve. So now we have one.

16 And we will move onto approval

17 of the Minutes in our packets. Let's see, we did

18 receive July 12th, 2005 meeting, as well as the

19 August 2nd 2005 meeting.

20 Does anyone have any changes to

21 the Minutes?

22 Member Krieger?


24 On the August 2nd meeting on




1 Page 73, lines five through ten, were made by

2 Cynthia Gronachan, and not myself. If they could

3 correct that.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: Page 73, lines

5 five through ten.



8 note that, make those changes.

9 Any other changes to the

10 Minutes?

11 Seeing none, I'll entertain a

12 Motion to approve the August's and July's, as

13 amended?

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: So moved.


16 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

17 Motion and a second.

18 All in favor say Aye?


20 MEMBER FISCHER: The Minutes

21 have been approved.

22 At this time, we'll move to the

23 public remarks section of the meeting. During

24 this time, I would ask anyone who would like to




1 address the Board in a matter that does not

2 relate to a case tonight, to please come to the

3 podium.

4 Seeing none, we'll close the

5 public remarks --

6 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman?

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes, Mr. Saven?

8 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman,

9 Members of the Board, I'd like to mention that --

10 you are aware that this is a later ZBA date than

11 we had previously, like we had before. It is

12 imperative to mention should anybody decide to

13 table a case today, that they would have the

14 necessary information to us by Thursday of this

15 week, so it could get on to the next agenda.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Point well

17 taken.

18 Thank you, Mr. Saven.

19 If anyone does have the chance

20 to table a case, pleas do be reminded that it is

21 a short month, as far as material gathering goes.

22 So Thursday is the date, correct?

23 MR. SAVEN: That is correct.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.




1 Any other public comments?

2 Seeing none, we'll close the

3 public remarks section of the meeting tonight.

4 And we'll go ahead and call our

5 first case.


7 Tonight we have Case Number,

8 05-054 filed by George Baczewski, a residence at

9 1945 West Lake drive. The Petitioner is

10 requesting four side yard variances for the

11 construction of a new home located at said

12 address; Lot 18, Bentley Subdivision.

13 And will you please raise your

14 hand to be sworn in by our secretary.

15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

16 or affirm that the information that you're about

17 to give in the matter before you is the truth?


19 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

20 Please state your name and

21 address for the record, and proceed.

22 MR. BACZEWSKI: My name is

23 George Baczewski. My house is at 1945 West Lake

24 Drive.




1 Good evening.

2 Our first meeting, that was

3 tabled, I was asking for, I guess, a little bit

4 too much. I was speaking with Mr. Saven, and he

5 mentioned that for the side variance of five feet

6 would be like a minimum or, I'd be getting into

7 serious fire-retardant materials and be costly

8 cause.

9 And so I would a -- after that,

10 I agreed on -- I would like the five feet on both

11 sides; giving me a house of 21 feet wide. The

12 front setback which is 30 feet, which is all

13 right by me. I spoke with most of my neighbors

14 last time, and most of them didn't have a problem

15 with what I wanted to do; except for Greg, which

16 is my immediate neighbor to the south.

17 I spoke with him this morning

18 and he mentioned that he had some concerns on

19 the -- how close the distance from the back of

20 the house from the road; that I would not impair

21 his view of the lake. And I measured my house

22 and his house, and my house came out to be, I

23 believe 96 feet from the road; and his was eight

24 feet farther -- closer to the water.




1 And he said he didn't have a

2 problem as long as I don't go farther into that,

3 which he's here and can attest to that.

4 Other than that, the square

5 footage of the house will be slightly over 25

6 percent allotted, which comes out to be, I

7 believe only -- it's you know 50 square feet

8 above the 25 percent. And with that, being said,

9 I believe that's all I have.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

11 I would like to remind the Board

12 Members, as well as anyone in the audience that

13 this case was tabled from the July 12th meeting.

14 So, at this time, there were --

15 for this case, this month, there were zero

16 approvals and zero objections out of 43 notices

17 sent. Is there anyone in the audience that

18 wishes to address the Board regarding this case.

19 MR. GANNETIK: Hi. My name is

20 Greg Gannetik. I am George's southside neighbor

21 at 1947 West Lake Drive.

22 As George had mentioned, him and

23 I did have a conversation today. And one thing

24 that I would like to see put into a Motion




1 provided this is approved, is that from the

2 southwest corner of the property -- the road side

3 south side corner, the proposed construction

4 should project into the property no greater than

5 96 feet. And that would preserve sight lines, I

6 think for the neighboring houses and not cause

7 any issues.

8 Once again, I talked to George

9 about that this afternoon. He had no issues. He

10 thought that would be the maximum he would need .

11 He didn't know if he would need that much, but I

12 would like to see that in the Motion, if

13 possible.

14 Thank you.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

16 Is there anyone else in the

17 audience that wishes to address the Board?

18 MS. VONDRAK: Oh, sure. My name

19 is Renee Vondrak. I'm the house directly behind

20 George, and kitty-corner to Greg. It's 44943

21 Cobblestone.

22 I once again have no objections

23 to this. And also I feel that George's house, if

24 he puts it up there, as long as it is not passed




1 the neighbor on the left side, actually of him,

2 should be fine. Does that make sense. If it

3 wasn't forward, it wouldn't block the view of

4 either home, that way to either side of him.

5 I think it's eight feet or three

6 feet or something like that he has.

7 So, that's it.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

9 much for your comments.

10 Anyone else in the audience that

11 wishes to address the Board at this time?

12 Seeing none, I'll ask the

13 Building Department?

14 Mr. Saven?

15 MR. SAVEN: Thank you, sir.

16 Just as a point of interest, one

17 of the things a around the lake side that we

18 are -- and any other community or subdivision --

19 we do allow decks, decks with fences basically

20 around it and surrounding it. No coverings, is

21 allowed to project up to 18 feet into the

22 required setback.

23 Are you looking at any

24 structures, when you were here before the Board




1 testifying to the 96 feet.

2 MR. GANNETIK: No, no, just the

3 house, itself; not including the deck.

4 MR. SAVEN: I just wanted to

5 clarify that.

6 MR. GANNETIK: Correct.

7 MR. SAVEN: There is a provision

8 in the Ordinance that does alow decks to be

9 constructed.

10 MR. GANNETIK: Understandable.

11 MR. SAVEN: Okay.

12 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

13 Mr. Saven.

14 Board members?

15 Member Brennan?

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I wasn't

17 hear last month, but it sure looks like he

18 listened to what we recommended. The house is

19 centered. He's got a small lot. You're building

20 a 21 foot wide house. Good golly. You're back

21 off the road 30 feet, and what we've always tried

22 to push, so that there is sufficient parking.

23 You're at a distance off the road that meets your

24 neighbors' requirements.




1 Sounds like you did what we

2 asked you to do, and I would support it -- your

3 presentation tonight.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Krieger?

5 MEMBER KRIEGER: I agree with the

6 previous speaker, that's in the previous

7 information that was given that he made an

8 efforts to go with what the Board recommended, so

9 I also would support a Motion.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Any other Board

11 Members?

12 Seeing none, Member Brennan?

13 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. I will

14 make a Motion with respect to Case 05-054, that

15 the Petitioner's plans be approved, due to lot

16 configuration; and subjected to the layout that's

17 submitted here, which is a house that's facing

18 the lake 96 feet off the roadway; and the

19 setbacks as requested.


21 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

22 Motion and a second.

23 Any further discussion on the

24 Motion?




1 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes. That it

2 also include what the speakers were mentioning,

3 to preserve sight line on the water and to the 96

4 feet.


6 Member Brennan did mention the 96, so --


8 Thank you.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: So we are all

10 set with that.

11 Ms. Backus, will you please call

12 the roll.

13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


23 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

24 to zero.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: Your Motion --

2 your variance has been granted.

3 Please see the Building

4 Department.


6 And next I'll call Case Number:

7 05-071 filed by Bart Wingblad for a vacant lot

8 located on the northeast corner of Grand River

9 Avenue. The Petitioner is requesting permission

10 to install a sign at the northeast corner of

11 Grand River Avenue and Beck Road from September

12 19th, 2005 through October 11th, 2005.

13 MR. WINGBLAD: My name is Bart

14 Wingblad. My address is 7772 Hirks Road,

15 Brighton, Michigan 48114.


17 please raise your right hand do be sworn in.

18 Do you swear or affirm the

19 information that you're about to give in the

20 matter before you is the truth?

21 MR. WINGBLAD: I do.

22 What I'm asking for -- well,

23 first of all, I want to thank the Board for

24 allowing me to appear before you on this matter.




1 And I'm going to apologize in advance. I'm not a

2 very eloquent speaker, but I'll do the best I

3 can.

4 I'm asking for a one-time only

5 variance to put up a sign, a large sign -- same

6 sign that we put -- were allowed to put up last

7 year; that the City as very, very generous to

8 allow us to put up last year. And there was some

9 courageous people that helped us push it through.

10 It's for a 20th anniversary benefit for Angela

11 Hospice, we have ever year.

12 This will be a one-time only

13 request on our part. I'm here representing

14 Angela Hospice. I am the owner of the property

15 currently. The property is being sold. And as I

16 said in my packet that I submitted, we'll never

17 have another opportunity to have the exposure

18 that we're going to have with this. We just want

19 to take advantage of it.

20 The closest resident to the east

21 or the west on Grand River are several miles

22 away. To the north, you're just under a mile;

23 and to the south, you're just over a half a mile.

24 And those are condominiums, which set far off the




1 road.

2 We want to illuminate the sign

3 at night. We're asking that we put it up -- that

4 we're allowed to put it on September 19th,

5 actually do construction and put it up. It will

6 be installed by a professional sign company. And

7 it will come down on the 10th. Before midnight

8 on the 10th it will come down.

9 And also we're -- my firm is

10 proposing to give to the City -- as a gesture of

11 appreciation -- and I want to make sure that it's

12 not qualified as a bribe, because Angela Hospice

13 is much more deserving of this. (Unintelligible)

14 some scare when we label it as a gesture of

15 appreciation. We really want to be able to put

16 this sign up. But we've offered up to donate

17 $2,000 to whatever City program the City wishes.

18 We're a long time corporate resident in Novi. I

19 know it's a unique request, and -- but Angela

20 Hospice is a very unique place and I'm very

21 passionate about it.

22 I did put in my packet that --

23 well, I put two things. One, I put a list of

24 criteria for future consideration, for future




1 people that come after us, so that we don't put

2 you in the position where we set a precedent; and

3 I hope those things will qualify as a deterrent

4 to other people to take advantage of any

5 favorable consideration we might receive.

6 And also I put that there are

7 currently a minimum -- well, at the time this was

8 made, there was a minimum of ten large billboards

9 in the City of Novi. There now exists 11. They

10 just put up a new one on the north side of 96. I

11 know MDOT got some control over that, and that's

12 all I know. I'm not going to pretend to be more

13 familiar with it than that.

14 But I think if the rules should

15 apply -- and if we are denied -- then they should

16 apply to everyone. That's my personal opinion.

17 We're asking to put up a sign for three weeks.

18 It's a large sign. It's on property that I own.

19 It's on a piece of land that is currently used as

20 heavy industrial, because it was originally

21 started that way. It's zoned, I think, office

22 now.

23 Thank you.






2 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.

3 In this case, 14 notices were

4 mailed out, and there were zero approvals, zero

5 objections; with three letters returned.

6 Does anyone in the audience wish

7 to address the Board regarding this case?

8 Seeing none, I'll ask the

9 Building Department for --

10 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman.

11 Each case that comes before you

12 is based on its own merit. And I'm really sorry

13 to say, this is highly inappropriate for you to

14 mention anything about money or gratuities or

15 anything like this in your presentation. I

16 really have a problem with that.

17 This Board works very hard in

18 taking cases as they come and what's before

19 them -- even just the mention of it, could be an

20 impropriety, as far as I'm concerned.

21 And at this time, I'll probably

22 let our attorney mention something here. I'm not

23 trying to do anything out of the sorts here.

24 We're going to review your case based on its own




1 merit, okay.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Schultz?

3 MR. SCHULTZ: Mr. Chair, I think

4 it would be sufficient, for tonight's purposes,

5 if the Chair would just thank Mr. Wingblad for

6 the offer and expressly decline it, unrelated to

7 what the Board's about to do.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Correct. And I

9 would hundred percent agree.

10 MR. WINGBLAD: Thank you.


12 Administration said, we do appreciate the offer,

13 but it isn't related to the case and we're going

14 to take the case for the material you've

15 presented; striking that from our consideration

16 at this time.

17 Any other comments from the

18 Administration?

19 MR. SAVEN: No.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: Board members?

21 Member Brennan?

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Personally,

23 anything involving Hospice I would support. They

24 took good care of my dad in his last days.




1 Personally I would support anyone who has

2 association with Sister Mary Giovanni, as I have

3 a long relationship with nuns. Your organization

4 does good work.

5 MR. WINGBLAD: Thank you, sir.

6 MEMBER BRENNAN: And for the

7 sake of three weeks on a corner that's virtually

8 vacant because of construction, I think this is

9 very good cause.


11 Gronachan.


13 those wings and halo?

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: I said I had a

15 long association with nuns.

16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Oh, so you're

17 still working on getting them. Okay.

18 MR. SAVEN: He's talking about

19 rulers.


21 with Member Brennan. I also would strongly

22 concur with the City Attorney in regards to the

23 request of any kind of financial involvement to

24 the this Board.




1 And we all reiterate this very

2 strongly, because we feel very strongly about it.

3 Each case comes to this Board on its own merit.

4 This is a unique situation, and given the fact

5 that you are the owner of the property has given

6 some weight to my individual decision on this

7 case.

8 I do have question for you, and

9 I don't know if I read this and I've forgot, how

10 large is this sign for the record?

11 MR. WINGBLAD: This sign is

12 large. It's -- the actual square of the sign --

13 there's a picture there -- that's about 16 feet

14 wide. On both sides, there's four charicatures,

15 which are not the full height, but they add to

16 the sign; and they make it the -- they give it

17 the -- they make it funny, cute, I don't know

18 what word I'm am looking for. These total

19 approximately 14 feet total; seven feet on both

20 sides.


22 And the overall height?

23 MR. WINGBLAD: The height is

24 about 12 feet. We can lower it. We put some




1 skirting, if you look at the picture. We put

2 some skirting there. We would like to do the

3 same thing, but that skirting was about 12 feet.


5 You mention the about the

6 illumination.



9 certain hours on the illumination?

10 MR. WINGBLAD: Well, I was

11 thinking from dark to morning. The lights would

12 go on with a sensor when it gets dark, they'll go

13 on. And I don't know if there's a way to put a

14 timer on it. I'm sure there is. If there's

15 something that the Board would like us to do, I'm

16 sure we can find a way to do it.


18 looking at this, my only concern is a safety

19 concern from those lights shining as it gets

20 darker after midnight on the road -- I mean, is

21 anybody from the City going to review this, to

22 make sure that these lights are not shining off

23 into any directing?

24 Will that be looked at,




1 Mr. Saven?

2 MR. SAVEN: If that's the

3 request of the Board, we certainly can do that.

4 If there's a time factor that you're looking at

5 for reasonableness, I'm certain there's a good

6 time, put it on a timer and the lights will go

7 out at a certain time.

8 Just want to make sure in this

9 particular case that we don't have any problem

10 with corner clearance, in which it appears you

11 don't have any problems.

12 MR. WINGBLAD: May I address

13 the.

14 A. Board?

15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Hang on one

16 second.

17 I would -- I am in support of

18 this sign. However, I would like it duly noted

19 that this sign be no larger than what's proposed

20 here, and that if it changes in any way, shape or

21 form, we need to be notified. And you don't have

22 a lot of days to do that. And I'm confident that

23 you're not going to change the sign.

24 MR. WINGBLAD: Oh, no. It's the




1 same sign.


3 would not be any safety hazards to the ongoing

4 traffic. That is a very busy intersection.

5 And I would ask the Ordinance

6 Department or the Building Department to review

7 the lighting. And I would suggest that it be

8 turned off at midnight or 1:00 a.m. I don't see

9 the importance of being on --

10 MR. WINGBLAD: We can do that.


12 midnight till morning.

13 MR. WINGBLAD: We can do that.

14 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

15 Member Gronachan.

16 Any other comments by Board

17 Members?

18 Member Krieger?

19 MEMBER KRIEGER: I concur with

20 the previous speakers, and I would just like to

21 add that if I'm correct, Angela Hospice, this is

22 part of the Felician Sisters?

23 MR. WINGBLAD: It is associated

24 -- it's on the grounds of the Felician Sisters,




1 but it is in no way subsidized by the Felician

2 Sisters. It is totally independent. Sister

3 Giovanni is the founder, and she founded it

4 20-years ago.

5 But, it's not subsidized, but

6 she is a Felician Sister, and it's on their

7 grounds. But we're non-denominational and

8 nonprofit.


10 wanted to say that it's on the opposite corner of

11 Madonna University, which is where I went to

12 school. I think this was an excellent packet

13 that was put together.

14 I would support a Motion for it.

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you. I

17 agree, the packet was well put together. The

18 majority of the letter spelled out the case very

19 well; the same with the presentation.

20 As far as the lighting, I'm not

21 as concerned because I feel that it shines off

22 into -- away from the street, and into industrial

23 anyway. My only recommendation would be if the

24 maker of the Motion wants to put in a concern




1 about the lighting; I would also like the

2 Building department to have jurisdiction over the

3 clearance as Member Saven said -- Mr. Saven said

4 -- clearance, concerning the corner and traffic

5 around there.

6 So, at this time, I'll look to

7 the Board Members for a Motion on this case?



10 Gronachan?


12 Number, 05-071, I move that we support the --

13 approve the stated sign as presented to this

14 Board this evening for the dates of -- to be

15 installed on September 19th -- to be installed on

16 September 19th; and to be removed no later than

17 October 10th by midnight; that heights and size

18 be held to what was indicated this evening to

19 this Board. And that the timing of the lights

20 would be from dusk to midnight. And that the

21 jurisdiction of the safety concerns, such as the

22 intersection and the lighting be referred back to

23 the Building Department.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a




1 Motion.

2 Is there a second?



5 Motion and a second now.

6 Is there any further discussion?

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Sanghvi?

8 MEMBER SANGHVI: Extend the Stag

9 decision to make the date to October 11th.

10 They're not going out there at midnight to bring

11 it down, you know?


13 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

14 MEMBER KRIEGER: Accepted.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: The seconder

16 agrees, as well.

17 Mr. Schultz?

18 MR. SCHULTZ: Very briefly,

19 Mr. chair.

20 Just in light of the fact this

21 is -- and the proponent (unintelligible)

22 something you need to consider in terms of the

23 next applicant or maybe even this applicant next

24 year, if there turns out to be issues.




1 Probably some findings as to why

2 the things that occurred to me, on behalf of the

3 Chair?


5 MR. SCHULTZ: The location of

6 the proposes sign away from residential homes;

7 the limited duration of the actual installment;

8 and the nonprofit nature of the proponent; and

9 the lack of any kind of official objection to

10 last years sign, which kind of (unintelligible)

11 if it turns out to be an issue next year or the

12 year after.

13 So the Board has a fresh slate.

14 So those items I offer for your consideration.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

16 Mr. Schultz.

17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I accept those

18 and would like to make those apart of the Motion.

19 MEMBER KRIEGER: I accept that.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: The Motioner

21 and the seconder agree.

22 Any further discussion?

23 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, please

24 call the roll.




1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


5 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


7 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


9 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


11 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

12 to zero.

13 MR. WINGBLAD: Thank you so

14 very, very much.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.



18 MEMBER FISCHER: And our next

19 case is Case Number, 05-072, filed by Pace

20 Nielson for the Home Depot located at 47950 Grand

21 River. The Petitioner is requesting a temporary

22 use permit, to allow a tent sale in the parking

23 lot of Home Depot at said address.

24 The tent will be there from




1 September 23rd to October 16th, 2005.

2 And are you Mr. Nielson?

3 MR. NIELSON: I am Mr. Nielson.

4 Would you please raise your hand

5 and be sworn in by our secretary.

6 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

7 or affirm that the information that you're about

8 to give in the matter before you is the truth?

9 MR. NIELSON: I do.


11 proceed.

12 MR. NIELSON: My name is Pace

13 Nielson. I reside at 2813 Black Eagle Ridge in

14 Howell, Michigan. I am the store manager at the

15 Home Depot there on Grand River, and we are

16 requesting a variance to allow us to construct a

17 tent to merchandise rugs for a period not to

18 exceed the time frame there. It is a temporary

19 structure brought in by an outside company.

20 These are items typically not carried in the

21 store; which is, I guess, the unique nature of

22 it. It's not -- we're not bringing things from

23 inside the store outside of the store to sell

24 them.




1 These are additional selections

2 that we, you know, offer from time to time and

3 varying stores; and this event kind of goes from

4 store to store, and we would like to do it here

5 at our location in Novi. It's roughly 40 by 80,

6 the tent is. We have drawn on the parking lot a

7 proposed area for it. In subsequent

8 conversations with the folks that do the event,

9 we would like to see something closer to the

10 building. I'm, you know, very open to wherever

11 you would prefer to see the tent, as it relates

12 to, you know, location in the parking lot.

13 My biggest concern is I don't

14 want to displace the convenience of my customers,

15 in terms of being able to park close to the

16 Building. Obviously, they don't want to be so

17 far away that it's difficult for people to get

18 there. So we compromised somewhere in the

19 middle, but if you have a feeling or a desire

20 where that's concerned, we're we can accommodate.

21 And that's all I have.

22 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

23 In this case, four notices were

24 mailed. There were zero approvals and zero




1 objections.

2 Is there anyone in the audience

3 that wishes to comment on this case?

4 Seeing none, I'll ask the

5 Building Department for any comments?

6 Mr. Saven: Two issues. One,

7 relocation of that tent. I think it's in order

8 strictly for the fact that the road coming in

9 from the main road off of Grand River as you

10 approach the retail north, you'll notice that is

11 also a main track coming in, and I would want to

12 try to stay clear of that corner clearance --

13 MR. NIELSON: Okay.

14 MR. SAVEN: -- for vision

15 purposes for trafficking?

16 MR. NIELSON: Okay.

17 MR. SAVEN: We could discuss

18 possibly a location closer to the building, as

19 you've indicated.

20 MR. NIELSON: Not a problem.

21 MR. SAVEN: (Unintelligible) the

22 tent is 40 by 80?

23 MR. NIELSON: 40 by 80.

24 MR. SAVEN: And it appears as




1 though you may need to be cordoning this off so

2 that -- we're going watch pedestrian traffic, and

3 make sure he's not going to have any problems in

4 this area. Second issue I want to bring up, we

5 do need the approval from the owner of plaza.

6 MR. NIELSON: I do have that. I

7 called Gail after she had left for today, but --

8 MR. SAVEN: Okay. Would you

9 please submit that for the record, please.

10 MR. NIELSON: Sure.

11 Can I --


13 Okay.

14 It does specify the dates, as

15 well as the Petitioner in this letter from Advant

16 Partners, supporting this request.

17 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman, I'm

18 sorry. There was a third thing. In your packet

19 that you had was -- temporary use permits that

20 were allowed, as far as the previous history, was

21 placed on your desk this evening, which is

22 talking about the two cases in for '04. They

23 have one already from '05, for plantings, which

24 are consistent with what they do.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

2 Mr. Saven.

3 Any other comments?

4 Seeing none, we'll move to Board

5 discussion.

6 Member Brennan?

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: First of all,

8 this is a good corporate citizen. This is a good

9 company who keeps up their property. Is a good

10 business, takes a lot of my money.

11 MR. NIELSON: We appreciate

12 that.


14 have a history of getting temporary use permits,

15 and as best as I know, we haven't had any reports

16 any issue with previous temporary use permits.

17 The Building Department, I'll

18 ask?

19 MR. SAVEN: I'm trying to

20 think --

21 Allen, do you recall any?

22 MR. AMOLSCH: Just a

23 (unintelligible) outside storage problem

24 (unintelligible) the facility. I believe right




1 now they are in compliance.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't have

3 any problem with this. I would -- if there was

4 any nodding on the Board, I would like to make a

5 Motion with respect to Don's comments about

6 relocating. I did leave that up the Building

7 Department to figure that out.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Are there any

9 others?

10 MEMBER SANGHVI: The only concern

11 is the fire department (unintelligible)?

12 MR. SAVEN: We want to make sure

13 that the main traffic in the area is accessible.

14 We will have routes down all of their aisles

15 (unintelligible) to be adjacent to this

16 particular tent. Shouldn't be a problem.

17 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: I also have a

19 question.

20 Is this specific to your store

21 or was there a reason -- is this going on at all

22 Home Depots?

23 MR. NIELSON: This is an event

24 that goes from store to store. There are certain




1 areas where it does tend to do better. We would

2 be one of those areas, as opposed to some other

3 stores in some different geographic areas. But

4 it's not something that's necessarily especially

5 being done just for us. It will come to our

6 store from another Home Depot somewhere; and go

7 from our store to another Home Depot somewhere

8 else.

9 Does that answer your question?

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes, it does.

11 And would you prefer that we

12 discuss the tent location now or would it be

13 better now, or leave it --

14 MR. SAVEN: I think what I'd

15 like to do, if it's okay with the Board, if you'd

16 leave that decision up to this Department. I

17 have the ability to take a look at the site and

18 probably choose a better location than where it

19 is at right now.

20 MR. NIELSON: Fair enough.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: I see nodding

22 on the Board --

23 Member Gronachan?





1 this would not go into the parking lot at all,

2 correct.

3 MR. SAVEN: Pardon?


5 not go into parking lot?

6 MR. SAVEN: Oh, it is going to

7 be into the parking lot.


9 where the seasonal -- where your seasonal --

10 MR. NIELSON: No. The --

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's where the

12 X is.

13 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm looking

14 at the wrong thing. I can't support this. And

15 the reason why is because of this complex and all

16 of those retailers, and I don't understand the

17 purpose of this, the degree of practical

18 difficulty or hardship or anything. That is --

19 this is a pretty bad location coming in there. I

20 cannot agree with the location at all, and I'm

21 not convinced that the purpose or the reason for

22 this has been clarified in this case. So I don't

23 know that I can support this.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Brennan?




1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Temporary use

2 permits state that the Building Department or his

3 designee -- which is us -- shall have the power

4 to grant permits authorized for temporary special

5 land uses for tenant sales, where permitted.

6 That's in our Code. It's been clarified why they

7 need it, the duration.

8 And at this point it is in

9 agreement that the Building Department to figure

10 out where to pull it. And I'm prepared to make a

11 Motion.


13 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to

14 case 05-072, I would move for approval that the

15 Building Department has got the authorization to

16 issue a temporary use permit till the time

17 requested, with the understanding that the

18 location is going to be something worked out with

19 you and the Building Department, whatever makes

20 sense from the safety and common sense direction.


22 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

23 Motion and a second.

24 Mr. Saven?




1 MR. SAVEN: Just a friendly

2 amendment. That it's limited to a 40 by 80 size

3 of the tent. No bigger.

4 MR. NIELSON: Oh, and I do have

5 a schematic and --

6 MR. SAVEN: I just want to make

7 sure (unintelligible) cart blanch --


9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think that

10 was inside the packet, it's 40 by 80.

11 MR. NIELSON: I will not go

12 outside the tent.


14 seconder agree or Member Sanghvi?



17 And Ms. Backus, will you please

18 call the roll.

19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


23 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?





1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


5 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

6 to zero.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

8 has been granted. Please see the Building

9 Department to work out the location; and good

10 luck.

11 MR. NIELSON: Thank you.


13 MEMBER FISCHER: I'd like to

14 call Case Number, 05-073 filed by Mr. Fawzi Tomey

15 of Jimmy John's Restaurant at 39765 Grand River

16 Avenue.

17 Petitioner's requesting another

18 temporary use permit to allow outdoor seating for

19 four tables at the business known as Jimmy

20 John's; and this is located at Pheasant Run

21 Plaza.

22 Are you Mr. Tomey?

23 MR. TOMEY: Yes, I am.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Would




1 you please be sworn in by our secretary.

2 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

3 or affirm that the information that you're about

4 to give in the matter before you is the truth?

5 MR. TOMEY: I do.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: Please state

7 your name and address and proceed.

8 MR. TOMEY: My first name is

9 Fawzi; and my last name is Tomey. And I reside

10 at 22355 Hesbrook, Northville, Michigan. I'm

11 here on my business at 39765 Grand River, Jimmy

12 John's. And I'm requesting to renew the permit

13 to permit us to put three -- four tables on the

14 outside so it would expand a little bit of our

15 seatings. We'll enjoy the business increase of

16 business during the summertime.

17 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

18 Is there anyone in the audience

19 that wishes to comment on this case?

20 MR. ALAWAN: Yes, I think I

21 would.

22 My name is Charles Alawan, and

23 I'm the property manager for Ali Faze, who owns

24 Pheasant Run. I would just like to say that we




1 were a little setback about having that kind of

2 thing on our sidewalk. But I can tell you this.

3 This particular business and the Greek Isle, they

4 have done a fine job keeping the area clean; the

5 tables clean. It's orderly, and we have great

6 deal of attendance by their customers.

7 So I support it. I think it's

8 working out real good. We have a substantial

9 walk that's in the park of the building and the

10 architecture, and I think just to add a little

11 more color. It's been good.

12 MEMBER FISCHER: Your name

13 again, sir?

14 MR. ALAWAN: I'm the next person

15 on the list, Charles K. Alawan.


17 Is a there anyone else in the

18 audience that wishes to comment?

19 Seeing none, I'll ask the

20 Building department for comments?

21 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out,

22 this case was heard before you back in 2004 for a

23 period of one year and three tables. This one's

24 for four tables. And we even talked about an




1 extended period of time. Normally, we look at

2 extended periods of time after the first trial

3 run.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: And have you

5 had any --

6 MR. SAVEN: No, sir.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: And you, sir?

8 MR. AMOLSCH: No problems.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: Board Members,

10 I'll ask for discussion.

11 Member Brennan?

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: We've been

13 pretty consistent over the years. You do a good

14 job. Got no business with the property -- with

15 keeping it clean; I've got no problem with making

16 a Motion to approve this Case, 05-073 for --

17 What would you recommend, Don,

18 two or three years?

19 MR. SAVEN: I think it's the

20 applicant's decision, what you would like to have

21 and whether we would --

22 MR. TOMEY: I'm sorry. I didn't

23 hear.

24 MR. SAVEN: This Board is




1 looking for a time factor for your approval.

2 MR. TOMEY: Oh.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Think you want

4 to do this for another couple years?

5 MR. TOMEY: Couple years would

6 be fine, because I'm opening two more; one on

7 Beck and Pontiac Trail; and one on the Promenade

8 within the next 12 to 15 months.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: Let's make it

10 for the duration of two years, okay?

11 MR. TOMEY: Okay.

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: We have no

13 problem with four tables versus three, or as

14 submitted.

15 That's my Motion.


17 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

18 Motion and a second.

19 I would like to mention --

20 because I previously did not -- that there was 21

21 notices sent, and one approval. I believe we

22 received it in our packet, as well. It is from

23 the property manager of Pheasant Run Plaza.

24 So with that, any other




1 discussion?

2 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

3 you please call the roll.

4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


6 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


8 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


10 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


12 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


14 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

15 to zero.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

17 has been granted for two years. Good luck.

18 MR. TOMEY: Thank you very much.


20 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time

21 we'll call Case Number, 05-074, filed by Charles

22 Alawan for Smoker's Merchant in Pheasant Run

23 Plaza. The Petitioner is requesting to install a

24 rolling grill door for security purposes to be




1 located at 39877 Grand River Avenue.

2 And as previously stated, you

3 are Mr. Alawan?

4 MR. ALAWAN: Alawan, yes, sir.

5 MEMBER FISCHER: Please raise

6 your hand and be sworn in by our secretary.

7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

8 or affirm that the information that you're about

9 to give in the matter before you is the truth?

10 MR. ALAWAN: I do.


12 MR. ALAWAN: I'm the property

13 manager for Mr. Faze. I manage several

14 locations; one of them happens to be Pheasant

15 Run.

16 We were asked a year ago to

17 consider some kind of security for this

18 particular tenant, Smoker's Merchant. It's been

19 broken into several times. Two or three, four

20 times through the front entrance. He has

21 reinforced his store front with bars. He has

22 installed security systems, including

23 photographic equipment.

24 In fact, I think your police




1 department did get a picture, but it wasn't good

2 enough to make any identification. They went

3 through the roof last winter, and we had

4 substantial cost, in terms of repairing it.

5 This is a hardship case. As a

6 matter of fact, on Monday, I noticed that the

7 police department had there vehicle out there to

8 give some presence to anyone who might be

9 considering it again. I'm sure they're just

10 waiting for little bit darker weather.

11 I looked into this matter after

12 it was presented to me, and I think -- I know

13 that it's esthetically okay with us. And because

14 of the canopy and the setback of the store, we

15 think that it won't hurt our image. I know that

16 the Ordinance refers to delivery and various

17 types of usage here. This is actually the front

18 of the store. This is the storefront, itself;

19 and that's where they're going through.

20 So we need to kind of seal it

21 off so we can get them some relief, as far as

22 insurance is concerned; and the wear and tear on

23 our store front.

24 So I appreciate your allowing us




1 to appeal this; and I would appreciate your

2 consideration.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

4 Is there anyone in the audience

5 that wishes to comment on this case?

6 Seeing none, we had 17 notices

7 mailed. There was one approval by the property

8 owner, himself; as well as we did receive from

9 Bodyan(ph) Bakki(ph), the attorney in fact or the

10 agent for the property owner, himself, also

11 supporting the request.

12 Building Department, any


14 MR. SAVEN: Well, this is a

15 tough case. I mean, of all the cases that come

16 before us, one of the things we are talking

17 about -- you have a beautiful plaza here. And to

18 see a rolling grill in the front, I'm sorry --

19 it's just my opinion here -- for this to take

20 place, I mean, have we exhausted all remedies, I

21 would look at first before coming to this Board.

22 In your packet, you have a

23 letter from our lieutenant, Thomas Limberg, in

24 regards to this particular issue. And yes,




1 they've had a problem, and getting up on the roof

2 and going through the roof -- I mean, this is a

3 tough scenario for this type of business.

4 MR. ALAWAN: We've had to

5 increase the lighting on roof at the rear of the

6 building.

7 MR. SAVEN: Sir, my question

8 would be, have you exhausted all remedies?

9 MR. ALAWAN: You know, we have.

10 If you would visit, you would

11 notice that the storefront glass aluminum has

12 been reinforced all the way across. We put in a

13 lock system, a cover plate. He's added the alarm

14 system. It goes directly to the police

15 department.

16 Unfortunately, they never seem

17 to get there to apprehend these people. And he's

18 also added, as I say, photographic equipment

19 inside the store to identify people. And I

20 understand the last time they broke in, that they

21 did get a photograph, but it wasn't sharp enough

22 to use.

23 I wish that there -- we, as the

24 owner, certainly don't think that this is




1 something we'd like to see. We've been fighting

2 it for over a year. But we have to conclude that

3 the hardship being faced by this tenant and they

4 continue to break-in, which I expect to go on.

5 You know, it's pretty hard -- if someone wants to

6 get in, they're are going to get in. But we need

7 to some how provide the security, at least at the

8 front door.

9 That's where they're going

10 through. They walk out -- in a very few minutes,

11 they can walk out with two or three hundred

12 cartons of cigarettes; which they've have done

13 over and over and over. He's got an insurance

14 problem, which, you know, we have to consider to

15 some extent. I don't want to lose him as a

16 tenant. He's been a very good tenant, very

17 consistent, and keeps a nice shop.

18 So this is the last resort, as

19 far as we know. We don't have any other

20 alternatives.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

22 Mr. Schultz?

23 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a brief

24 comment, I guess, following up on Mr. Saven's





2 This is probably not a use that

3 the Board or the City wants to see proliferate.

4 So as you do your deliberations I thought I'd

5 throw out the kind of considerations that you're

6 looking at. And a little reminder of the

7 practical difficulty standard. So as you

8 evaluate what the proponent said, you have those

9 in your mind.

10 The practical difficulty

11 standard is applying substantial hardship or

12 substantial difficulty in complying with the

13 terms of the Ordinance. And the issue unique to

14 the property -- not the use, but to the

15 property -- a situation that's going to do

16 substantial justice to both the property owner

17 and to those in the surrounding area; and then no

18 self-created hardship.

19 And I know that the Board is

20 generally aware of those, but I thought I would

21 kind of frame the discussion a little bit, and

22 you know, as Don said, I think it's an

23 interesting case, so I thought I'd started it

24 out.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

2 Mr. Schultz. Thank you for those comments.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Board Members?

4 Member Brennan?

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: I guess I -- my

6 first comments is are we entirely certain that he

7 doesn't have the right to do this, given the

8 language that's listed here with respect to

9 Article 15, Section 1603. This is not a loading

10 dock. This is not a truck well. This is not an

11 overhead service door or other type of service

12 bay door. This is his front door.

13 Why is he even in front of us?

14 Doesn't he have the legal right to do this? Is

15 there any other Ordinance that says he can't?

16 MR. SAVEN: This matter was

17 brought before the Planning Department in regards

18 to the issue regarding the door, itself. The

19 overhead door will need to be determined as a

20 service door. This was concluded as an overhead

21 door. That falls under that particular purview.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Actually, it

23 doesn't face a thoroughfare; it's parallel to the

24 thoroughfare.




1 You know what, I think this

2 is -- I don't know why there's any real thought

3 about why not to confirm this request. If

4 anything, there's been a huge confirmation of an

5 issue here, of a problem here. He's

6 represented -- he's got the burden of a problem.

7 The police department does, as well. I think

8 that he's very clearly demonstrated that he's

9 got a hardship.

10 And I mean the option of saying

11 well, you know, this isn't a business that we

12 want in the community, I don't think that that's

13 before us.

14 Unless someone has another

15 perspective -- my gist on this, I think it is the

16 correct thing to do.

17 MEMBER FISCHER: Any other

18 comments, sir?

19 Member Brennan?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: No, I'm done.

21 Sorry.


23 Gronachan?





1 first looked at this case -- and I'm going to be

2 honest with my comment -- as a resident, my first

3 comment was, not in my backyard; doesn't look

4 right. But as a Board Member, I have to do

5 what's right for the Petitioner.

6 I agree that there is some

7 practical difficulty in that this is unique to

8 this property. However, somebody's going have to

9 help me with that this is not a self-created

10 hardship. And what I mean by that is, given the

11 type of business that it is -- the other stores

12 in this mall are not getting broken into? Do

13 they all have the same amount of breaking and

14 enterings as this particular store has?

15 MR. ALAWAN: To the best of my

16 knowledge -- the two years that I've been

17 managing, we have not had a break-in at any other

18 facility.


20 MR. ALAWAN: I'm sorry. I'll

21 take it back. We did have one incident at Jimmy

22 John's, where someone tried to pry the front door

23 plate and that had to be replaced. I do remember

24 that. I mean, it is a well-lit -- and quite




1 frankly, as you all know, quite a beautiful

2 plaza. We try to keep it up. But the reason I'm

3 here --

4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That answered

5 --

6 MR. ALAWAN: Oh, excuse me.


8 answered the question.

9 Thank you.

10 Which backs up my thought

11 process here, of substantiating that this isn't

12 self-created, given on the base of the type of

13 business that we're dealing with.

14 Is that, Mr. Schultz, something

15 that we need to look at? I mean, obviously if

16 this was a bobbin and needle store, we wouldn't

17 be looking at this type of crime as taking place

18 with that kind of business.

19 Am I going down somewhat of the

20 right road?

21 MR. SCHULTZ: Well, let me -- if

22 I may?


24 MR. SCHULTZ: -- back up a




1 little bit and address the first comment that

2 Member Brennan made.

3 Because I don't think you want

4 to focus just on the nature of the business and

5 who the user is. It's certainly a permitted use;

6 nothing wrong with this use whatsoever.


8 MR. SCHULTZ: You know, the

9 owner of this store and the center is not the

10 issue. The Board has two ways to look at this.

11 The first is kind of what Member Brennan started

12 out with; which is, should this even be in front

13 of us, because it doesn't really sound like the

14 kind of thing that the Ordinance was intended to

15 address.

16 Those are rear large overhead

17 doors. And, you know, Mr. Saven's initial

18 interpretation -- with the assistance of Planning

19 Department -- that this is the kind of thing --

20 this sort of rolling opaque metal that the

21 Ordinance discourages or actually precludes.

22 But you as a Board have the

23 ability to say we disagree. So that's option

24 number one. Option number two is to treat it as




1 a variance question, which is -- started out as

2 your issue of practical difficulty. Self-created

3 hardship is the -- what happens when a Petitioner

4 causes the need for the variance through some

5 particular action that may or may not be legal.

6 And just the nature of business is probably not

7 the idea that the rule of tries to prevent.

8 (unintelligible) jewelry store, and even this

9 could just as easily be that kind of a high rent

10 business as is in front of you. And you're not

11 going to say we don't want jewelry stores in our

12 City.

13 So, I kind of was just outlining

14 the four or five issues. I don't think they've

15 done anything particularly out of the ordinary

16 just by being this kind of a shop. So -- and

17 that's just my opinion, obviously, as the Board

18 will decide that.

19 So, I think you're looking at

20 kind of the other issue, does -- well, is there

21 something about the area or the site that causes

22 this problem, is really what you focus on; rather

23 than who the person is or what the business is.

24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Well -- and




1 in no way did I want to give that presentation or

2 present that. So I'm glad that you cleared that

3 up and cleared it for record.

4 What I'm saying is that perhaps

5 a -- that the location is contributing to this.

6 That's basically -- and not so much of what type

7 of business it is. But given what it is and it's

8 location, that it has more of a higher propensity

9 for break-ins than -- that's where I was going

10 with the self-created. Given that if it was a

11 different location and a different type of

12 building, that this kind of variance would not be

13 needed. It took me a little longer to get there.

14 So that's where I'm going; that

15 maybe this particular location for this

16 building -- for this particular business isn't

17 working, that's how I'm looking at it.

18 Don't look at me like that. I'm

19 stuck after that.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: Any further

21 comments, Member Gronachan?


23 point in time, no.

24 Thank you.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Krieger?


3 question.

4 If you have tried the avenue of

5 using a security with the yellow flashing light

6 to be in the parking lot to give the feeling of

7 security to any of the tenants anywhere or in

8 this particular --

9 MR. ALAWAN: He has installed

10 flashing lights within the business. We're

11 reluctant to put a flashing light in the parking

12 lot. I haven't pursued it nor have I ever heard

13 it used.

14 MEMBER KRIEGER: No, I mean a

15 security vehicle with somebody in it 24/7 -- or

16 at night. Not during the day, but during the

17 evening hours?

18 MR. ALAWAN: For us or for him

19 to do that?


21 MR. ALAWAN: Is that what you

22 are suggesting that we or he put a security

23 vehicle with someone sitting in it?

24 MEMBER KRIEGER: No. I asked if




1 that was --

2 MR. ALAWAN: Let me just say

3 this. We hadn't considered it mainly because the

4 police car's been out there on several occasions

5 and they wait for them to take it away. In the

6 last break-in, it wasn't there. I don't think --

7 given some of the comment I have heard in terms

8 of the plaza and the nature of it, that would be

9 conducive to the kind of image we're trying to

10 project; as to have a security car with a dummy

11 sitting in it 24 hours a day. So I haven't tried

12 it and I'm not sure it would work.

13 MEMBER KRIEGER: That was the

14 question, if that was one of the options.

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: My question --

17 I guess going back Building Department.

18 When it discusses a major

19 thoroughfare, how was that determined in this

20 case?

21 MR. SAVEN: Basically, as the

22 total packages face the main thoroughfare of

23 Grand River, you're going to see it as your going

24 down Grand River from the west, okay -- from east




1 to west. Or -- however, it's still considered

2 fronting on a major thoroughfare.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. That si

4 the standard that is normally used?

5 MR. SAVEN: Yes.


7 I would be reluctant to go down

8 the interpretation of -- re-interpretation,

9 overruling the Building Department on this one.

10 I think they have made their case for why this is

11 this way. As far as going down the route of

12 granting a variance in this particular case, that

13 is the one that I would feel comfortable with.

14 The Petitioner has mentioned several things that

15 they have done in order to deter this type of

16 activity at their store.

17 And even this correspondence

18 from the police department, they have six

19 confirmed breaking and entering at this location.

20 Their have been smaller incidents where -- just

21 their only reason for not counting it as

22 confirmed is because they hadn't lost a lot of

23 product; so they've had more than six.

24 They've even had -- tried




1 decoys. Our police department has helped in this

2 effort, along with the petitioners. So, I feel

3 that the burden has been met by the Petitioner;

4 and therefore, I would be willing to support a

5 Motion, if one was to be made.

6 Member Sanghvi, your comments?

7 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you.

8 I agree with your comments and

9 I'm going to make a Motion, that in Case Number,

10 05-074, we grant the request of the Petitioner

11 because of the hardship --

12 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Sanghvi,

13 your microphone, please.

14 MEMBER SANGHVI: I agree with

15 your comments, Mr. Chairman, and I'd like to make

16 a Motion that in Case Number, 05-074, we grant

17 the request of the Petitioner because of

18 hardships already demonstrated in the discussion.

19 Thank you.


21 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

22 Motion and a second.

23 Any further discussion?

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Discussion.




1 I am behind you, Mav. I would

2 limit it to this Petitioner. If the business

3 decides to move, that thing comes down.

4 MEMBER GRONACHAN: This business

5 only.


7 problem with it.


9 seconder?

10 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes, that's

11 fine.


13 Any further discussion on the

14 Motion?

15 Mr. Schultz?

16 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a comment.

17 I'm trying to think forward to

18 the next one who comes in which is less -- which

19 doesn't have the same history of break-ins; it

20 isn't right on Grand River.

21 Maybe just add to the findings;

22 that the location of building; close to Grand

23 River; in the area of two major thoroughfares

24 contributed to the need for this in this




1 particular case.


3 problem.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: Motion maker

5 agrees? Seconder agrees.

6 We'll make that part of the

7 Motion.

8 Anything else?

9 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

10 you please call the roll.

11 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


21 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

22 to zero.

23 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

24 has been granted with some conditions. Please




1 see the Building Department and good luck.

2 I hope this type of activity

3 stops for you.

4 MR. ALAWAN: Thank you for your

5 time. Appreciate it.


7 MEMBER FISCHER: I would like to

8 call Case Number, 05-075, filed by Partha

9 Chakravartti of Eden Garden LLC. Sorry if I

10 messed up your name.

11 The Petitioner's requesting two

12 lot frontage variances, for Lots 6 and 7 for the

13 proposed development known as Evergreen Estates.

14 The area in question is located west of Garfield

15 Road and north of Nine Mile road.

16 Please raise your hand and be

17 sworn in by our secretary.

18 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

19 or affirm that the information -- I'm sorry.

20 Do you swear or affirm that the

21 information that you're about to give in the

22 matter before you is the truth?






1 proceed.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: Please state

3 your name and your address.

4 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: My name is

5 Partha Chakravartti; and I live at 2477 Naples

6 Drive, Novi, Michigan 48374.

7 First of all, I'd like to take

8 the opportunity to thank the Board -- Mr. Chair

9 and rest of Board; and special thanks to Ms. Gail

10 Backus, who was very helpful communicating with

11 us.

12 We are few friends who

13 started -- decided to build together, a few

14 homes. And the engineers from the Planning

15 Department of Novi City was very helpful getting

16 us to the point where we are right now. There

17 are two lots that couple of our friends are

18 (unintelligible) or build there, do not have

19 frontage on a cul-de-sac.

20 The picture I'm trying to show

21 is not very clear. Basically, we're trying to

22 look at two lots -- and the material should be in

23 the packets.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: We do have the




1 material.

2 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: Fantastic.

3 We had considered -- as advised

4 by the Planning Department -- the alternative of

5 either taking the main road inside, crossing the

6 wetland -- the strip of wetland inside the

7 dryline; and having the cul-de-sac on the other

8 side of the wetland; or having the wetland the

9 way it is -- I'm sorry. The cul-de-sac is having

10 the common shared driveway going into the lots

11 inside.

12 We wanted to minimize the impact

13 on the environment; the wetland woodland area.

14 We are going to live there. We are very cautious

15 not to disturb any nature out there. And in the

16 process, we did -- went ahead and obtained the

17 DEQ permit, which I'm displaying right now; to

18 change it from the width of the common driveway

19 from 12 feet to 18 feet.

20 That's where we stand, and

21 that's the case.

22 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

23 In this case, 13 notices were

24 mailed. There where is zero approvals and zero




1 objections; two letters were returned.

2 Is there anyone in the audience

3 that wishes to comment on this case?

4 Seeing none, I'll ask if the

5 Building department has any comments?

6 MR. SAVEN: Just where are we

7 with your wetlands land permit? Do you have a

8 wetlands permit?


10 received from MDEQ, yes.

11 MR. SAVEN: Do you have a City

12 wetlands permit?


14 MR. SAVEN: All right.

15 I'm all set.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

17 Mr. Saven.

18 Board Members?

19 Member Brennan?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Boy, they all

21 seem like no brainers tonight for some reason.

22 Certainly, extending the

23 cul-de-sac over on the other side of the pond

24 doesn't make sense. It just adds to the burden




1 of the construction; and this is a smart way of

2 doing this.

3 My only question was, is this

4 going to be a bridge or are you actually building

5 a road through the wetland? How are you -- how

6 is that going to happen, that little stub, it

7 looks like?

8 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: I can give

9 you my recollection of the drawing. It would be

10 a hollow tube protecting the wetland, the water

11 going through it. It will be a common shared

12 driveway going on top of that. We do have that

13 engineering drawing submitted to the Planning

14 Committee. I don't think the copy

15 (unintelligible.)

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: What's before

17 us tonight is very simple. You don't have

18 frontage to a major road. You're trying to build

19 on the other side of the swamp. This is a clever

20 way of doing it, and it makes sense.

21 You've got my support.


23 Mr. Brennan?

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes, I'm sorry,




1 yes.


3 comments by Board Members?


5 MEMBER FISCHER: I would tend to

6 agree with the previous speaker. You can pull

7 that -- I'm fine. I'll look at this one. I

8 believe it's common sense, as well. And looks

9 like you're making an effort, as you just

10 described, to insure that the nature there is

11 adversity effected to the least possibility; and

12 so I appreciate that.

13 And I think this concept as a

14 whole does that, as well, trying to not disturb

15 the area, the wetland area there.

16 So, I believe that Member

17 Brennan is correct, as usual; and will ask for

18 any other comments?

19 Member Gronachan?

20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: We're going

21 to be neighbors. I'm not far from here, so I'm

22 familiar with the area.

23 And my comments are I can -- I

24 understand fully why you're doing this, and I




1 support it in this particular case only; and I

2 stress that. And I'm sure that there are people

3 out on Garfield and Nine Mile that are watching

4 this because they have frontage, and they are

5 dying to split their property; and that's not

6 what's happening here.

7 This is someone who's coming in

8 and developing a piece of property who is

9 protecting a large amount of wetlands, am I not

10 correct?


12 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Can you tell

13 me -- I saw you with the Council, and I don't

14 recall size of this. Do you know off hand the

15 amount of wetland that you are actually

16 protecting, the percentage?

17 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: No, I don't

18 know offhand.

19 MEMBER GRONACHAN: But that is

20 your sole purpose of doing this this way,

21 correct?


23 correct.

24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That is, to




1 protect this wetland, not to get the maximum

2 build out of a piece of property.

3 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: That's very

4 correct.


6 add or increase density in any way, shape, or

7 form.



10 the reason I say this, is because I'm very

11 familiar with this area; and there are residents

12 out in that neighborhood who are dying to split

13 and increase density for financial reasons. And

14 I don't believe, in this case, at this time,

15 that that's what this is about. This is clearly

16 to protect the wetlands.

17 And I will be in full favor, and

18 I appreciate you letting me put those comments on

19 record.

20 MR. CHAKRAVARTTI: Thank you

21 very much.


23 Mr. Chair.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,




1 Member Gronachan.

2 Any other comments?

3 Seeing none, open the floor back

4 to Member Brennan.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to

6 case 05-075, I'd move for approval as submitted

7 due to the lot configuration.



10 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

11 Motion and a second.

12 Is there any further discussion?

13 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

14 you please call the roll.

15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


23 GAIL BACKUS: And Member

24 Sanghvi?





2 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

3 to zero.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

5 has been granted. Good luck.


7 very much.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: We'll go ahead

9 and take one more case before we take a little

10 recess.


12 So I'd like to call, Case

13 05-076, filed by Bright Star, Incorporated, for

14 Gus O'Connor's. The Petitioner's requesting a

15 sign variance, one sign variance for a wall sign

16 to be installed at Gus O'Connor's Irish Pub, at

17 42875 Grand River, in the Main Street area.

18 Your name, sir?

19 MR. SAYED: Hello. My name is

20 Mos Sayed. I'm with Bright Star Signs at 13500

21 Fort Street in Detroit.

22 MEMBER FISCHER: If you could

23 please raise your hand and be sworn in by our

24 secretary.




1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

2 or affirm that the information that you're about

3 to give in the matter before you is the truth?

4 MR. SAYED: Yes, I do.

5 MEMBER FISCHER: Please proceed.

6 MR. SAYED: We're requesting a

7 neon channel letter sign to be mounted in the

8 front of -- facing front of Gus O'Connor's Irish

9 Pub, facing Grand River. And the reason my

10 client wanted to go ahead with a new sign, is

11 because he is having -- he's clients -- he's

12 having people having a hard time finding his

13 place; and he feels that if he has a sign up

14 there, it's going to help identify his business,

15 his establishment.

16 At one point, the previous

17 tenants -- it was a restaurant called Petooch,

18 they had a channel letter sign very similar to

19 what we're requesting at this moment. There's a

20 smaller sign above the door; that will be taken

21 done; and it'll be a channel sign, instead of the

22 frontage.

23 Any question, any comments?

24 MEMBER FISCHER: And when we get




1 to board discussion, if we have any we'll let you

2 know.

3 Is there anyone in the audience

4 that wishes to comment on this case?

5 Seeing none, I will let the

6 Board know there were seven notices mailed; zero

7 approvals and zero objections.

8 Building Department, any


10 MR. AMOLSCH: No comment, sir.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: I'm going to go

12 ahead and start this off by saying that I drove

13 by there earlier this week, and I didn't see a

14 mockup sign.

15 I'd ask any other Board Member

16 if they had seen a mockup when they've driven by?

17 My suggestion would be to table

18 this case, in order to see a mockup, unless the

19 Petitioner would like to comment on --

20 MR. SAYED: We have a mockup

21 sign, three feet by four feet sign in the window

22 and to the left -- where the main entrance is,

23 just to the left of it. It's a three foot by

24 four foot. It's a picture blown with the sign on




1 the building.

2 It's fairly a large sign you

3 have, but I have a copy that I can pass around,

4 if you like to.

5 MEMBER FISCHER: We have a full

6 packet. We have some specifications. I'd like

7 to see the sign up there, but I will ask Board

8 Members for their consideration.

9 Member Gronachan?

10 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Before we go

11 any further.

12 Mr. Saven, do you recall or

13 maybe Member Brennan that this was not before us

14 at the time that they were building? That they

15 requested this sign in -- the front one, and

16 there was something that we denied, is there --

17 MR. AMOLSCH: There was a

18 variance for the additional wall sign on the Main

19 Street side previously.

20 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Was there a

21 denial on one of the other signs?

22 MR. AMOLSCH: They have a

23 permitted sign in the front door; and they

24 requested and got a variance from the Board on




1 May 4th of 2004 for the additional sign on the

2 west elevation, and a projection sign, also.


4 But I can concur with Chairman

5 Fischer. I could not see the mockup. And I

6 think that the we have done this in the past,

7 where we've requested the actual mockup be put on

8 the building.

9 And therefore, I think this case

10 should be tabled until that's done, because I did

11 not see it in the window, as well.

12 MR. SAYED: If I may comment?

13 MEMBER FISCHER: If there are

14 any questions or if there's any issues, I let you

15 speak. But at this time, the Board does have the

16 floor.

17 So Member Brennan, you had your

18 hand up.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: My second home.

20 The issue, and unfortunately,

21 the Petitioner didn't get it real cross. The

22 issue is the existing sign was right above the

23 door. You can't see it from Grand River.

24 There's a line of trees along Grand River that




1 serves as a barrier; and that situation is going

2 to get worse.

3 Every other tenant on that

4 street now has their sign up in the pitch of the

5 roof. The sign as submitted in the sketch is

6 near identical to the golf store next door. This

7 business, along with other businesses in Main

8 Street, are struggling. And there is

9 considerable hardship given Grand River being

10 closed for a long time. Beck Road being closed

11 for a long time. Construction on Novi Road for a

12 long time.

13 This Petitioner, in particular,

14 has had a lot thrown at him soon after opening

15 his business. Personally, I think that it

16 matches the rest of the signage on that building.

17 I know and I've always supported the fact we ask

18 for mockups. The sign manufacturer didn't

19 understand what we needed. He had a mockup in

20 the window, which was a rendering -- a small

21 rendering.

22 If it's the general mood of the

23 Board to delay this, I guess I have no problem.

24 On the other hand, it matches what's there. It




1 There is a hardship. And it wasn't presented,

2 but I'm aware of the hardship. I personally know

3 the owners. I'm not petitioning for them, I just

4 know the situation.

5 So I that's my comment.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: And I agree. I

7 do see the element of practical difficulty.

8 Let me ask Mr. Amolsch.

9 Other than the fact that it's

10 the second sign, if the other sign that is on

11 Main Street was not there, would this sign be in

12 size configuration to the building?

13 MR. AMOLSCH: Yes, it is.

14 MEMBER FISCHER: They would not

15 need a variance for the sign?

16 MR. AMOLSCH: There's a maximum

17 65 feet on any wall sign, based on linear

18 frontage.

19 MEMBER FISCHER: And they meet

20 that by about --

21 MR. AMOLSCH: And Member

22 Gronachan, you were correct. I just looked at my

23 (unintelligible) there was (unintelligible) that

24 was not approved.




1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: So there was a

2 denial at some point. I thought so.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: I appreciate

4 the comments by Member Brennan. They kind of

5 pened my eyes, and I realize that.

6 Given that this isn't a size

7 requirement, I like to be very harsh when it

8 comes to mockup signs, and what we expect from

9 them. But the reason and the only reason that

10 they're here is because of the minor sign that's

11 on their -- the Main Street side; which would be

12 the west side of the building.

13 So, I would be in support of

14 this tonight; and that's not to ever give an

15 excuse to anyone else about a mockup sign, but I

16 would be willing to support this, as well.

17 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Sorry, guys.

18 I'm going to be the hardball here. I will not --

19 I apologize. I understand about the size. I

20 understand the difficulty in this business; but,

21 with as many problems as we have at this table

22 with the sign companies not getting it right

23 about mockup signs, I'm not going to bend them.

24 We've had way too many




1 Petitioners come in front of this Board not doing

2 rules. And a mockup sign is a mockup sign. It's

3 just that simple. And we have made ever other

4 business in this facility do the mockups, and I

5 am not going to change the rules now.

6 I'm sorry. I will not be

7 supporting this. I would like to see a mockup.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

9 Member Gronachan.

10 Member Sanghvi?

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Thank you,

12 Mr. Chairman.

13 The previous speaker's point is

14 well taken. In spite of that, I'm going to try

15 and make a Motion. That in Case Number 05-076,

16 we grant the request for the wall sign as

17 suggested for business identification on Grand

18 River.

19 Thank you.


21 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

22 Motion and a second.

23 Any further discussion?

24 Mr. Amolsch?




1 MR. AMOLSCH: Subject to removal

2 of the Grand River side sign?


4 MEMBER FISCHER: The one right

5 above the door?

6 MEMBER BRENNAN: The Petitioner

7 (unintelligible).

8 MEMBER FISCHER: It was directed

9 by the Petitioner.

10 And do you feel comfortable with

11 that, Member Brennan?



14 Ms. Backus, will you please call

15 the roll.

16 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


18 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?





2 GAIL BACKUS: Motion fails,

3 three to two.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time,

5 we do not have a consensus on the Board.

6 However, there is the possibility to table the

7 case and getting a mockup, I believe.

8 Would we need a reconsideration

9 of the Motion?

10 MR. SCHULTZ: A Motion to table

11 would accommodate that.

12 MR. SAYED: May I comment,

13 Mr. Fischer.

14 MEMBER FISCHER: Not at this

15 time, unless there's any questions by a Board

16 Member or any Motions?

17 Yes, Member Brennan?

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think for the

19 two or three seconds that it will take, let's

20 hear what he's got to say.

21 MR. SAYED: I called the

22 Building Department and ask about the mockup, did

23 we need to make big banner and have it installed

24 way up top. And from my understanding, when I




1 spoke to Ms. Backus, from my understanding -- I

2 explained what we were going to do. And I got

3 some kind of a okay on it, before I even went

4 ahead and did what we did.

5 If I would have known that would

6 not be acceptable, I would not have done that.

7 But I was confirm that it would be okay, and --

8 to do what we have done with the mockup.

9 Otherwise, I would not have done it. I would not

10 disrespect the Board by any mean.


12 understand that. And there's times -- I believe

13 that Ms. Backus -- I'm sure handled the case

14 fine; and there's other ways of communication. I

15 know on the websit and other packages we give out

16 when looking for variances, that the

17 specifications are pretty clear on what we ask

18 for as a Board.

19 So, I believe that we are fine

20 in that arena.

21 Any other Board Members?

22 Make a Motion.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Given the

24 position of the Baord, I'll make a Motion that we




1 table this for the next meeting.



4 second?


6 sorry.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

8 Motion and a second to table this case to -- for

9 next month.

10 Any other discussion?

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: Just add the

12 direction to the applicant to put the mockup sign

13 up.


15 They should be able to get in by

16 Thursday. The current package should be fine and

17 sufficient to the Board Members.

18 So all we're missing is the

19 mockup.

20 We'll see you in October.

21 Ms. Backus, please call eh roll.

22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan:





2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


6 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


8 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

9 to zero.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: It will be

11 tabled, which direction that this will be the

12 first case on the agenda for October. And please

13 go ahead and put the full size mockup up, so we

14 can see what it will look like.

15 We appreciate your time. Hope

16 we can work with you next month.

17 MR. SAYED: Appreciate it.

18 Thank you.


20 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time,

21 the Zoning Board will take a seven minute recess

22 take us to 9:00.

23 (A brief recess was taken.)







3 Board of Appeals is back in session.


5 And we're going to call Case

6 Number 05-077 -- I'm sorry.

7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: That's right.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: 05-077, filed

9 by Tamatha Stubbe for Singh Homes, at 41566

10 Steinbeck Glen. The Petitioner is requesting a

11 temporary use permit for the continued placement

12 of a construction trailer located on said

13 address. The applicant would like to continue the

14 construction trailer on the area until the entire

15 site is completed.

16 And you are?

17 MR. DAWSON: Mark Dawson with

18 Singh Homes.

19 MEMBER FISCHER: Would you

20 please raise your hand and be sorn in by our

21 secretary.

22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Do you swear

23 or affirm that the information that you're about

24 to give in the matter before you is the truth?




1 MR. DAWSON: Yes, ma'am, I do.


3 Your name and address and

4 proceed, please.

5 MR. DAWSON: My name is Mark

6 Dawson, and I live at 1387 North Creek Road in

7 Wixom.

8 And I'm sure you're

9 (unintelligible) permit for a construction

10 trailer.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.

12 Thank you, sir.

13 Is there anyone in the audience

14 that wishes to comment on this case?

15 Seeing none, in this case there

16 were 15 notices mailed. There were zero

17 approvals and one objection. The objection by

18 James Cane of 41620 Kinnon Circle. There's

19 increased construction traffic in the trailer

20 area due to the location of the cross roads, as

21 well as esthetic related.

22 Building Department?

23 MR. SAVEN: I think it's another

24 one that's a very tough issue, because of the




1 location of this corner lot. It's referencing

2 the rest of the build-out off site. You had an

3 opportunity to go out to the site and take a look

4 at the remaining lots that need to be completed.

5 Certainly, I would not like to

6 have trucks looking for a construction trailer on

7 the site, going through the entire area. I'd

8 like to have it readily visible, so they know

9 where to go to get directions. And I don't

10 believe that this is going to be a problem. Of

11 course, it's the Board's decision, but I do have

12 a concern because there will be construction

13 traffic in the area. I would rather have them

14 know directions right upfront.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

16 Mr. Saven.

17 Board Members?

18 Member Brennan?


20 question of the Building Department.

21 As we have in the pass when a

22 permit has been issued for had a construction

23 trailer for a period of time. In some cases

24 there are a lot of problems with storage and




1 debris.

2 Are there any problems with this

3 particular Petitioner?

4 MR. SAVEN: We had one issue and

5 they did remove that trailer, correct?

6 MR. DAWSON: It's gone, as of a

7 few days ago.

8 MEMBER BRENNAN: That answer and

9 the fact that the Building Department would

10 prefer to have it here to solve other problems,

11 I'd support the Petitioner's request.

12 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

13 Member Brennan.

14 Other Board Members?

15 Member Gronachan?

16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I would just

17 like to address the resident's concern, given

18 that they did not indicate that this is in a poor

19 condition. And as previously stated by our

20 Building Department, there is only one violation

21 of a trailer, and not with cleanliness; and that

22 it continues to do so.

23 I can be in support of this

24 request, as well.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

2 Member Gronachan.

3 Mr. Saven?

4 MR. SAVEN: If this is so much a

5 concern for maybe down the road, maybe put it

6 under continuing jurisdiction, if that's a Motion

7 that comes to be.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: I support the

9 two previous speakers before Mr. Saven, because

10 the term continuing jurisdiction is one of my

11 least favorite phrases that I've heard out of

12 this Board. We don't have very much to say when

13 it comes to that, as far as the Courts have

14 ruled, if I'm correct, Mr. Schultz, and so I hate

15 to do that. I'd rather see smaller time limits

16 given in these cases.

17 So that would be my only

18 suggestion.

19 And if a Motion were made in

20 support, please take this into consideration.

21 Member Gronachan?

22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I do have a

23 question.

24 How much more time are you




1 looking for?

2 MR. DAWSON: Two to three years,

3 depending on other land and what's available

4 there and development.


6 would only support a year, and then have them

7 come back. Given the economy, and things could

8 turn around they could complete -- they could

9 complete this, optimistically, (unintelligible.)

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Sanghvi?

11 MEMBER SANGHVI: I would make a

12 Motion that in Case Number, 05-077, we request --

13 we grant the request of the applicant for the

14 temporary use of a construction trailer for a

15 period of one year, subject to further approval,

16 or to -- if there are problems from the

17 department, Building Department.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

19 Motion on the table.

20 Does anyone support?


22 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

23 Motion and a second.

24 Any further discussion?




1 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

2 you please call the roll.

3 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


5 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


7 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


9 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


11 GAIL BACKUS: And Member

12 Krieger?


14 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

15 to zero.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: You have been

17 granted for one year at this time.

18 Good luck.

19 MR. DAWSON: Thanks.


21 MEMBER FISCHER: I'd like to

22 call Case Number, 05-078, filed by Cheryl and Bob

23 Murphy for 22798 Shadow Pine Way, located north

24 of Nine Mile Road, east of Meadowbrook. The




1 applicant is requesting a four foot front yard

2 setback variance for the construction of a roof

3 over the existing porch at said address.

4 And you are Ms. Murphy?

5 MS. MURPHY: Good evening.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: Good evening.


8 raise your right hand.

9 Do you swear or affirm that the

10 information that you're about to give in the

11 matter before you is the truth?

12 MS. MURPHY: I do.

13 I have no further information,

14 besides the packets that were provided to the

15 Zoning Board.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Okay. Thank

17 you very much. Keep it nice and simple. I don't

18 mine that at all.

19 In this case, 35 notices were

20 mailed; 13 approvals and zero objections.

21 If the Board desired, I could

22 read them. But at this time, I'll wait for a

23 request from the Board Members.

24 And is there anyone in the




1 audience that wishes to comment on this case?

2 Seeing none, Building

3 Department?

4 MR. SAVEN: It's over an

5 existing porch. That's it.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

7 Mr. Saven.

8 Board Members?

9 Member Brennan starting it off,

10 as usual.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, it's

12 pretty clear cut. It's consistent with decisions

13 we've made in the past. We have homeowners'

14 approval. I'm looking over my shoulder here;

15 homeowners' association approval.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Yes, Ms. Backus

17 did receive a phone call.

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: We have no

19 objections. We consistently approve this type of

20 request, when there aren't any issues.

21 I would support.


23 Motion?

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: I would be glad




1 to make it. 05-078, I would move for approval of

2 the Petitioner's request, for purposes of safety

3 and security.


5 MEMBER FISCHER: If the maker of

6 the Motion and the seconder don't mind -- I know

7 we've said this before -- but if we could make it

8 part of the Motion in this case it also is the

9 existing foundation of the porch, I would be able

10 to support it?

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: So accepted.


13 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.

14 Any further discussion?

15 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

16 you please call the roll.

17 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


19 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


21 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


23 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?





1 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


3 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

4 to zero.

5 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

6 has been granted. Good luck, and please see the

7 Building department.


9 Case Number, 05-079, filed by

10 Jim Brown for 1661 Harbor Cove. The Petitioner

11 is requesting to construct a nine foot by 16 foot

12 deck with stairway in the side yard of an

13 existing condominium. And that is the only

14 variance.

15 MR. DANKO: Good evening.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: You need to be

17 sworn in by our secretary.

18 MR. DANKO: I'm actually not

19 Mr. Brown.


21 appearing on behalf of Mr. Brown?

22 MR. DANKO: My name is Rod Danko,

23 and I'm here from the planning team on

24 Mr. Brown's behalf.




1 MR. SCHULTZ: Good.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: Secretary,

3 would you please swear (unintelligible.)


5 raise your right hand.

6 Do you swear or affirm that the

7 information that you're about to give in the

8 matter before you is the truth?

9 MR. DANKO: I do.


11 MEMBER FISCHER: State your name

12 and address for the record, please.

13 MR. DANKO: My name is Rod

14 Danko, Da-n-k-o. I reside at 4444 Pierre Drive,

15 Pinkney, Michigan. My ZIP is 48169.

16 I'm here tonight on behalf of

17 Mr. Brown. And what he is seeking to do is

18 construct a nine feet by 16 foot elevated deck on

19 the side of his condo unit. We arrived at this

20 size, nine by 16, looking to have this be a

21 minimum, you know, a minimal amount of variance

22 in mind. It's reasonably small to have in this

23 area. It leaves quite a bit of area between the

24 two structures. I believe it's 31 feet, at least




1 between them.

2 There are other side yard decks

3 in the area. Within the condo documents, it

4 seems there was convertible space set aside in

5 many of the units within this condo. The unit

6 that Mr. Brown lives in, however, did not have a

7 convertible space. So, that was part of the

8 reason we are here looking for a variance.

9 The nature of the deck -- they

10 use the upstairs bedroom quite a bit. They'd

11 also like -- from a safety standpoint -- to have

12 another means of ingress and egress for the

13 house. So, along with the deck, there'll be a

14 door wall installed where the existing window

15 upstairs is now.

16 And with that, I'll be happy to

17 answer any other questions, if I can.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

19 much, sir.

20 At this time, I'll ask if

21 there's anyone in the audience that wishes to

22 make comment on this case?

23 Seeing none, in this case we had

24 83 notices mailed. There are zero approvals from




1 the notices, and two objections.

2 Madam Secretary, can you please

3 read the correspondence.


5 Mr. Chairman, however, the

6 objection is from the same person, Earl Elliott.

7 He owns two condos. One at 1687 Harbor Cove; and

8 1695 Harbor Cove. Evidently, Mr. Elliot is under

9 the impression that this is common area, and that

10 Mr. Brown is not able to build on this. He

11 indicates that if he wants to build on his

12 property, then the Petitioner should purchase

13 property from the condo association.

14 However, we do have a letter

15 Harbor Cove homeowners' association board, who

16 has approved the addition of a deck to the condo

17 of Jim Brown at the indicated address.

18 The drawings were provided to

19 the board, and as long as the builder follows

20 those specifications, the board's in full

21 support.

22 Thank you Mr. Chair.

23 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

24 Madam Secretary.




1 Does the Building Department

2 wish to comment on this case?

3 MR. SAVEN: No comment, sir.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: No comments.

5 And I'll open up the floor for

6 Board discussion.

7 Member Krieger?

8 MEMBER KRIEGER: Thank you.

9 In regards to -- it was very

10 nice to see that he went through and looked up

11 the Ordinance and answered each question; and had

12 the homeowners' association approval.

13 So, I would be in support of

14 this, if a Motion is made.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

16 Member Krieger.

17 My question would lie with

18 the -- possibly the City attorney or Building

19 Department.

20 As far as the land does go, this

21 his to build on; is that correct? I don't want

22 to drag us into any dispute as to the land

23 ownership; if that make senses. So if I could

24 get any clarification.




1 MR. SCHULTZ: If I may, before

2 Mr. Saven has any additional comments.

3 From our prospective, that's

4 exactly what the objection does. It kind of gets

5 us involved in who owns which area. If you look

6 at the drawing, (unintelligible) it does somewhat

7 appear to be common area; where in the normal

8 condominium maybe the protrusion wouldn't be

9 permitted.

10 But here you have an approval

11 from the board that under the condominium

12 (unintelligible) of ownership allows improvement

13 or not within a common area. I would say without

14 that approval letter, you probably would be

15 justified in saying I need for information. With

16 that approval letter, I think you're permitted to

17 go forward and consider it, until he has

18 permission to do so; and leave it to the internal

19 operating procedures of that condo association to

20 deal with.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

22 And my other comment regarding

23 the common area, as well, is that, in the packet

24 you mention there's 40 feet in between the two --




1 MR. DANKO: Yes.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: -- condos. And

3 this is sticking out nine feet. If it is common

4 area, I walked through there and I feel that

5 there's still sufficient room to maneuver and

6 enjoy whatever is behind there, if this is common

7 area.

8 So, however, that's not my

9 decision whether it is or not. But I would be

10 able to support this.

11 Any other Board Members?

12 Member Sanghvi?

13 MEMBER SANGHVI: I'd make a

14 Motion in Case Number 05-079, we grant the

15 request of the Petitioner, provided they have

16 legal authority to build this deck.

17 Thank you.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

19 Motion.

20 Anyone --


22 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

23 Motion and a second.

24 Any further discussion?





2 MEMBER FISCHER: Seeing none,

3 Ms. Backus, will you please call the roll.

4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


6 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


8 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


10 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


12 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


14 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

15 to zero.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Your variance

17 has been granted. Good luck.

18 We'll be out there to enjoy the

19 deck as soon as it's built.

20 MR. DANKO: Thank you.


22 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time I

23 would like to call Case Number, 05-080, filed by

24 Claudio Rossi of Mirage Development, located at




1 25805 Beck Road. The Petitioner is requesting a

2 sign variance to erect a grown sign to be located

3 at 25805 Beck Road, which is on the southwest

4 corner of Beck and 11 Mile.

5 And your name, sir?

6 MR. ROSSI: My name's Claudio

7 Rossi.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Please be sworn

9 by our secretary.


11 raise your right hand, please.

12 Do you swear or affirm that the

13 information that you're about to give in the

14 matter before you is the truth?

15 MR. ROSSI: I do.


17 MEMBER FISCHER: Please proceed.

18 MR. ROSSI: Good evening. My

19 name is Claudio Rossi. I'm with Mirage

20 Development, and we're here tonight to ask that

21 the Board consider our request; and on behalf of

22 the builders in Asbury Park, the placement of the

23 sign at the southwest corner of 11 Mile and Beck.

24 About a month ago, Rich Cligman




1 of Superb Homes was here requesting such as sign

2 be permitted. The request was for an eight by

3 four sign, ten foot tall. Based on comments made

4 by Members of this Board that night, in respect

5 to size, height and print, Mirage as the

6 developer has submitted a revised sign

7 application with a photo; which should be

8 included in your packets.

9 On this photo, you will see our

10 new proposed sign, along with two other signs

11 that have been permitted at major intersections

12 within Novi. The size of our proposed sign is

13 four by four, with an area of 16 square feet to

14 be place seven feet high from grade. This is

15 substantially less in area, height and print from

16 these other permitted signs, as well as our first

17 proposal submitted to the Board.

18 I believe that the color and

19 appearance of the sign has a soft cast, and

20 should blend in and not detract from the visual

21 appearance of this area. As pointed out by Rich

22 Cligman at the last meeting, the main purpose for

23 the sign is to alert the general public's

24 awareness to the Asbury community due to the




1 secluded location at 11 Mile.

2 We appreciate the Board's

3 reconsideration of the request; and I'll try to

4 answer any questions that you may have.

5 Thank you.

6 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you, sir.

7 Is there anyone in the audience

8 that wishes to comment on this case?

9 Seeing none, in this case, there

10 are 17 notices mailed; zero approvals and zero

11 objections.

12 Building Department, any


14 MR. AMOLSCH: I'd like to ask

15 Mr. Rossi, the mockup that you have out there,

16 that's not where the sign is going to be located,

17 is it?

18 MR. ROSSI: That's actually

19 close to where the sign is going to be located.

20 We made sure to measure the distance from the

21 center of the road to the property line. I

22 believe the right of way dimension is 33 feet.

23 MR. AMOLSCH: That's what I was

24 going to ask.




1 MR. ROSSI: That row is actually

2 -- excuse me. The sign is piped at about 34 and

3 a half or 35 feet from the center of the road.

4 MR. AMOLSCH: Okay.

5 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

6 Any further comments?

7 Board Members?

8 I'll go ahead open this

9 discussion if, Mr. Brennan doesn't want to take

10 part.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: I wasn't here

12 last month, so I didn't hear (unintelligible)

13 discussion last month. Sounds like he's --

14 MEMBER FISCHER: In these cases

15 and with every case we see, we look at them

16 individually. So although we do appreciate the

17 comparison -- I appreciate the comparison, it's

18 not really something that we look. Because each

19 of those other cases, as you may have seen,

20 provided different facts.

21 But with that said, I believe

22 that this case has addressed many, if not all of

23 the concerns that the Board had last month. We

24 discussed an advertising sign, because it had the




1 developers listed, because it had phone numbers

2 listed, as one of our concerns, and that has been

3 taken care of.

4 We addressed the size of the

5 sign; that was a concern of several Board Members

6 and that has been addressed.

7 My only question to you, the

8 letter from Paul Bosco, that would still be --

9 MR. ROSSI: That's correct.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: So that's still

11 legitimate letter.

12 MR. ROSSI: Yes.

13 MEMBER FISCHER: I feel that you

14 did a very good job of taking the concerns of the

15 Board Members into consideration. In fact, I had

16 supported the sign last month. And so I -- given

17 that you've met all of their concerns in my eyes,

18 I, once again, will support this sign.

19 Other Board Members for


21 Member Gronachan?

22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: I'm going to

23 get the negative person award tonight. My view

24 from the last month hasn't changed. I can




1 appreciate Mr. Rossi's attempt to re-present this

2 to us. However -- and I was trying to find the

3 Minutes here -- my -- Member Canup was very

4 strong about this.

5 I don't -- I did not then nor do

6 I now see the need for the sign on that corner.

7 This is a residential area. I understand your

8 attempt at comparing the sizes, because you're

9 correct that last month, the sign was very large;

10 and that was another big concern. However, if my

11 memory serves me correct, we indicated that there

12 was not enough hardship created or indicated on

13 why this sign.

14 I believe that your partner

15 indicated they could not locate the one location

16 on 11 Mile?

17 MR. ROSSI: Yeah. They're

18 having a very difficult time getting people to

19 the site. Probably people within Novi no pretty

20 much where most of the subs are, but a lot of the

21 traffic and the people that are coming to this

22 particular subdivision are coming from outside of

23 the community.

24 So when they're driving through




1 Novi, I mean, their eyes are going to go to the

2 first area that are, you know, the most exposure.

3 You know, Beck Road has a lot of exposure. You

4 know, the Mile Roads, Eight Mile, you know, Ten

5 Mile, you know, those roads have a lot of

6 exposure. But, you know, Nine Mile, 11 Mile --

7 11 Mile especially, is very secluded with trees.

8 The sub is setback, and it's very, very

9 difficult, you know, to get people in there.

10 And I know they've been trying

11 to do a lot of advertising. They really feel and

12 I feel that having a sign off of Beck Road, I

13 feel that this sign is minimal in comparison to

14 some of the other signs that have been permitted.

15 I think it would help a great deal to the success

16 of that development. And certainly, I think,

17 everybody wants to see, you know, that occur in

18 the City, so.

19 I can understand how people

20 within Novi -- I mean, they should be aware of

21 where most of the subs are and they can come to

22 the City, and, you know, get to the locations of

23 the different subs; but not everybody does that,

24 especially people from outside the community;




1 unless they're with realtors or people that know

2 the area very well.

3 I think they'd be missing out --


5 Are you talking about -- you're

6 getting calls from potential buyers saying, I

7 just can't find your subdivision? I guess I

8 don't know how you guys know that people are

9 not -- or is it directly due to the lack of sales

10 or is it directly due to the amounts of

11 complaints that you're getting from people

12 staying I can't find you?

13 MR. ROSSI: It's due to the lack

14 of sales, but it's also due to the people that

15 are finally finding out about the subdivision --

16 they've already bought somewhere else, not

17 knowing that Asbury was a consideration for them.

18 And so what's happening with the salespeople is,

19 you know, we're getting calls saying, hey look,

20 you know, we're missing out on some of the

21 traffic that we could be, you know, handling

22 through this subdivision, if we had the proper

23 advertising, marketing, whatever you want to call

24 it.




1 And certainly, we're not trying

2 to make, you know, a situation here that's a

3 visual problem. I think we're trying to blend in

4 with the area. And I think this would be a great

5 help to everybody in that subdivision, you know,

6 if we could get the support. And, you know, it

7 does have to do with sales; no question about

8 that.

9 And I think if we get more

10 traffic inside the subdivision that the sales

11 will definitely, you know, increase.


13 Mr. Chair, I'm going to request

14 that this case be tabled for the reasons that our

15 two other Board Members that were here -- that

16 they are not here this evening -- were -- felt

17 very strongly against this. I -- and I do, as

18 well. I don't -- I'm not comfortable with

19 putting a sign at that particular corner.

20 I agree that Mr. Rossi has done

21 a better delivery than the previous Petitioner,

22 however, I'm still not comfortable with that

23 particular location at that -- at the 11 Mile and

24 Beck site.




1 And so, I will not be supporting

2 this this evening, and I will be recommending to

3 the Petitioner that this be tabled for a full

4 Board.

5 That would be my recommendation.

6 Thank you.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time, I

8 feel that -- once again, I fell that the

9 Petitioner met my burden of practical difficulty

10 for this case. That's a less burden than undue

11 hardship. And I'm going to let the other Board

12 Members play out whether or not they would like

13 to see a Motion made.

14 I gave the opportunity to the

15 Petitioner themselves to table the case at the

16 beginning of the meeting, because we did not have

17 a full Board. So I feel that it's not the

18 Board's decision to not give them the right of

19 getting a up or down vote, should the Board go

20 that way tonight; just because some Board Members

21 are absent.

22 So that being said, any other


24 Member Brennan?




1 MEMBER BRENNAN: This is new

2 construction. How many homes are up?

3 MR. ROSSI: There is

4 approximately -- maybe 12, 13 homes up.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: How many sites?

6 MR. ROSSI: 45.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: And there's 12

8 up. 12 sold?

9 MR. ROSSI: No. There's

10 probably six or seven spots; a couple of models;

11 and, you know, three or four sales.

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Generally, we

13 also look at duration. We haven't discussed

14 that. And, you know, can we start with a year;

15 is that something that's in your mindset as

16 acceptable?

17 A. At least a year would be -- yeah would be good.

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't know of

19 a new subdivision anywhere that he haven't

20 granted marketing signs. 11 Mile is not a high

21 traffic road by any stretch. I live at Ten Mile

22 and Beck. 10 Mile is heavily travelled; 11 Mile

23 is not. And, I think it makes sense to put a

24 marketing sign on a corner that gets traffic to




1 where it's going. He has a right to have a

2 marketing sign.

3 It sounds like from what I've

4 heard there's been a great deal of movement on

5 their part with respect to size and style and

6 what's on it. I don't have a big deal with it.

7 I would support a Motion.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

9 Member Brennan.

10 Any further discussion?

11 Member Krieger, the floor is

12 yours.

13 MEMBER KRIEGER: Yes, thank you.

14 I have a question regarding the

15 two larger other signs, if they're on the

16 property, is there a luxury lake front

17 (unintelligible) properties.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: These are

19 located off-site.

20 MR. AMOLSCH: (Unintelligible)

21 on their property. There's not (unintelligible)

22 sign package of last year. The other off

23 premises signs (unintelligible.)





1 corrected, as usual. I remember another one

2 coming to us from off site. Sorry for confusing

3 it.

4 MEMBER KRIEGER: Okay. That was

5 it.

6 Thank you.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Sanghvi?

8 MEMBER SANGHVI: No, I have no


10 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll try a

11 Motion, see where the Board sits. Only goes one

12 way or the other way, you know.

13 With respect to Case, 05-080, I

14 would file -- or I would make a Motion that the

15 Petitioner's request for a marketing sign as

16 submitted be approved or the purposes of selling

17 outs the subdivision.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

19 Motion.

20 Is there a second?

21 MEMBER SANGHVI: Second, with an

22 addition to the Motion, for a period of one year.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'm sorry.

24 Thank you.





2 Motion to approve the sign for a period of one

3 year. There's a Motion and a second.

4 Any further discussion?

5 Seeing none, Ms. Backus, will

6 you please call the roll?

7 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


9 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


11 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


13 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


15 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Does it matter?

17 I'll still say Aye.

18 GAIL BACKUS: Motion fails, three

19 to two.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Brennan?

21 MEMBER BRENNAN: You see what

22 our options are. We can't make a decision. We

23 don't have the people to do it.

24 I'll make a Motion to bring you




1 back next month, second case.

2 MR. ROSSI: How many votes do you

3 need to --


5 MR. ROSSI: I guess I don't have

6 a choice.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: No, you really

8 don't. I mean, if you want your sign, you've got

9 to come back.

10 MR. ROSSI: Okay.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a

12 Motion in this case to bring him back for next

13 month, second case on the docket.

14 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

15 Motion.

16 Is there a second?


18 MEMBER FISCHER: Ms. Backus,

19 will you please call the roll.

20 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?





2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


6 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

7 to zero.

8 MR. ROSSI: Thank you.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: See you next

10 month, but we won't make you wait so late.

11 MR. ROSSI: Thanks.


13 MEMBER FISCHER: And our last

14 case of the night, I would like to call Case

15 05-037A; is that correct, 37A?

16 MR. SAVEN: Correct.

17 GAIL BACKUS: Yes, that's

18 correct.

19 MEMBER FISCHER: Filed by James

20 Korte or 2034 Austin Drive. Mr. Korte is

21 requesting the -- to appeal the determination of

22 the Building Official that the proposed

23 construction at 2034 Austin Drive is an expansion

24 of a nonconforming use.




1 As Board Members may remember,

2 this case was previously heard on May 3rd of this

3 year, Case Number ZBA 05-037, for a dimensional

4 variances regarding the side yards. At that

5 time, those dimensional variances were denied.

6 You are Mr. Korte.

7 Please raise your hand and be

8 sworn in by our secretary.

9 MR. KORTE: I am at a

10 disadvantage. My hearing aid went out again

11 today. I just had it repaired. I apologize. I

12 am not bionic. I would ask you to speak up. And

13 if you're speaking to me, look at me, and I

14 apologize for that inconvenience, and I will pick

15 up everything you say.

16 And I again, apologize for that

17 inconvenience.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: No problem.

19 Board Members will assist you in

20 that.

21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Can you raise

22 your right hand for me.

23 Do you swear or affirm that the

24 information that you're about to give in the




1 matter before you is the truth?

2 MR. KORTE: Yes, I do.

3 MEMBER FISCHER: Please state

4 your name and address for the record.

5 MR. KORTE: James E. Korte.

6 This property is 2034. My address is 2026.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Austin Drive.

8 MR. KORTE: Yes, I'm sorry.

9 That'll confuse everyone.

10 I am here for several reasons,

11 and there has been some controversy over why I'm

12 back and how I'm back. And I will get rid of

13 some of that first. And I will talk quickly.

14 It's been a short meeting, and I don't want to

15 hold you any longer.

16 I'm sworn to tell the truth.

17 People that come up and talk of me aren't sworn

18 to tell the truth. The last time I was here,

19 your judgment was made on misconception and lack

20 of information; neither of which was particularly

21 my fault, but I understand why the judgment was

22 made.

23 I'm here to hopefully correct

24 that situation. One of the situations of a




1 neighbor convinced you that the property line of

2 the house next door was zero. If you look at the

3 paperwork, you will see that there is a -- I

4 would say deeded lot line. There are always

5 deeded lot lines. There is a survey lot line

6 that shows it approximately two feet.

7 Now, two feet isn't enough

8 anywhere, but there is a difference in zero lot

9 line and two feet lot line. Now, we also had a

10 problem -- and I think Member Brennan certainly

11 wasn't confused -- but asked questions as to what

12 is the foundation; is it a foundation; and what's

13 going on with the foundation.

14 And the City, during my first

15 court situation, refused to even get involved

16 with if it is or if it wasn't. I was in court

17 again and given a 60 day ultimatum -- and you

18 will be reading a letter from someone here this

19 evening -- that says the only reason I'm back is

20 because I have to tear it down. Not true.

21 What the Court said is I have 60

22 days to alter, correct, make legal -- and I'm

23 looking for exactly the right word. That's why

24 I'm back here. Just before that court case, I




1 went to the Building Department, and they again

2 refused to inspect the property for any amount of

3 money. Therefore, I got licensed people to

4 inspect -- and you should have that paperwork in

5 front you.

6 And low and behold, I do have a

7 foundation; and it's the same foundation that I

8 said was put in in the '50's the last time I was

9 here. Now, as we go through, and if you look at

10 the exact same diagram -- with a few changes --

11 and the changes have put the property in next

12 door -- from the foundation to foundation -- I

13 still have approximately ten feet. Nobody has

14 ten feet on my side of the road.

15 Now, that's a surveyed lot line.

16 Last time no one asked me where that lot line

17 was. You brought one of the neighbors up and he

18 assured you that it was zero clearance, not true.

19 And the joke in that whole matter is rather

20 recently he had to tear a beautiful shed down on

21 his property because it wasn't built on his

22 property.

23 He can convince you where my lot

24 lines are, and he doesn't know where his own are.




1 Now, that's a tragedy that that beautiful shed

2 came down. I would think -- after they speak

3 again -- I would like right of rebuttal, which is

4 not exactly the situation -- so I can get ready

5 of all of the misnomers that they put on you this

6 time.

7 Last time you were told that

8 there was a presumption, all of my occupancy

9 permits have been revoked. Impossible situation;

10 the City can't do it. I never had a house

11 condemned. That was Henrietta's. So let's make

12 sure your picking on the right person when you

13 blaspheming them.

14 The only legitimate one was my

15 neighbor on the empty lot -- who is here this

16 evening -- and he said I had a roof over a roof

17 that disappeared. Still don't know what that is.

18 And said I was working without permit and

19 illegal. And I think if you would check with the

20 Building Department -- and Don is here -- I am in

21 no illegality whatsoever; with the exception of

22 this addition, as we speak.

23 The two easements across the

24 street from me are both illegal. One -- and




1 person's here -- even built a shed illegally, no

2 permits in a drainage easement. And when the

3 City does approval that -- which there's no

4 reason that they won't -- the shed will have to

5 be moved, or he'll have to come to you, because

6 it doesn't fit zoning. Yet these people can

7 blaspheme me.

8 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chairman?

9 Mr. Chairman, if I may --

10 I'm sorry, Jim. Stick to the

11 facts.

12 MR. KORTE: That's fine.

13 MR. SAVEN: I mean, we're here

14 for case. There's no need to go around the whole

15 neighborhood, go through everything here --

16 MR. KORTE: Then if I have right

17 of rebuttal --


19 MR. KORTE: I will get to the

20 case.

21 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Korte, your

22 time limit is approaching. Your time limit is

23 approaching. Please stick to the facts of case

24 --




1 MR. KORTE: If you look at this,

2 you'll see --


4 (interposing)(unintelligible) regarding this --

5 MR. KORTE: I'll talk as quick

6 as I can.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

8 MR. KORTE: There is a yellow

9 spot that is the addition. There is a pink spot

10 that the foundation goes out to. Last time what

11 I said is I removed the sheds from the that

12 area -- there were structure on it from the

13 '70's. And the Ordinance that Don brought up

14 last time is if the structure is removed for any

15 reason -- and I was the reason in this

16 situation -- you can build over the structure --

17 over the foundation.

18 And now, we have licensed people

19 that say the foundation does exist. Therefore,

20 that pink spot there, I could be building over.

21 And as last time, I said, I chose not to go out

22 that far, because there was in reason to. So I

23 am building less by two feet than was removed.

24 Because the outer footprint hasn't changed. I am




1 building approximately two foot less than the

2 structure that was removed; which still gives me

3 approximately 8 feet from foundation to lot line;

4 and another two feet from foundation -- from lot

5 line to neighbor.

6 And it's as simple as that. So

7 I am reducing the nonconformity; not adding to

8 it.

9 Thank you.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

11 much.

12 MR. KORTE: And I will not be

13 hearing what they say, because I don't have a

14 hearing aid; which is probably good. I won't get

15 upset.

16 Thank you.

17 MEMBER FISCHER: And I assure

18 you that first all the Zoning Board does look

19 purely on fact; and second of all, as far as your

20 right to rebuttal, if a new issue is brought up

21 --

22 MR. KORTE: I'm sorry.

23 You are still speaking to me.

24 And I apologize.




1 MEMBER FISCHER: As far as your

2 right to rebuttal, Mr. Korte, if a new issue is

3 brought up --

4 MR. KORTE: If I stand in front

5 of the speaker -- and I apologize -- I will hear

6 you.


8 MR. KORTE: And I apologize.

9 Thank you.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: As far as your

11 right to rebuttal --

12 MR. KORTE: I can hear you.

13 MEMBER FISCHER: -- if a new

14 issue is brought up or if a Board Member has a

15 question, you will have that right, as granted

16 through the Chairperson. Otherwise, we'll move

17 on with the Hearing.

18 And at this time --

19 MR. KORTE: Thank you.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: -- I would

21 invite anyone from the audience that wishes to

22 address the Boards.

23 MR. KORTE: I will also ask to

24 stand under the speaker, and I apologize for




1 that.

2 MEMBER FISCHER: You can stand

3 there.

4 Mr. Schultz?

5 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you,

6 Mr. Chair.

7 I just thought before we get

8 into the public Hearing, just as a reminder to

9 the public, as well, as to what the limited issue

10 is that's before the Board tonight.


12 MR. SCHULTZ: This is not a

13 reconsideration of the case that was before the

14 Board back in May. You do recall what that case

15 was about, was a request by the proponent for a

16 variance for construction within the side yard

17 setback, which was denied; not appealed to the

18 Circuit Court; not a subject to reconsideration.

19 What's before you is the

20 separate question -- really kind of a -- more of

21 a legal question than you typically get -- which

22 is why we provided sort of a outline of a memo.

23 And the question is, was Mr. Saven correct when

24 the proponent came in and said, I don't need a




1 side yard variance anymore now that I've thought

2 about this. I've got a foundation. I just want

3 to build over that foundation. So I'm a

4 nonconforming use and I want to reconstruct this.

5 And as the proponent point out, only part of it.

6 Mr. Saven concluded that he's

7 not rebuilding the same structure, and therefore

8 he's not within the rules for reconstructing a

9 nonconforming use. What existed on the

10 foundation -- according to the proponent -- was

11 sort of an exterior lean-to. What he's talking

12 about doing is building an addition to the home

13 with living space.

14 The material that Mr. Saven

15 relied on and that we have commented on in our

16 comment, indicates from our perspective that it's

17 not within the Ordinance.

18 And the question for the Board,

19 is do you believe that with the information that

20 was given you and section that we relied on, is

21 Mr. Saven incorrect in his interpretation of the

22 Ordinance. That's the limited narrow question.

23 All of the issues about who did what and

24 easements and thing like that, our inappropriate.




1 The question is kind of technical, Ordinance

2 interpretation question, was Mr. Saven right in

3 the way he read the rule.

4 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you for

5 the review of the scope of the case, and to bring

6 it back very focused for us, so would we know

7 exactly what we're looking at.

8 The Petitioner -- or people in

9 the audience that wish to speak, go ahead and

10 lineup at this time. And actually, Madam

11 Secretary, go ahead and read the correspondence

12 before you guys speak, in case there's some

13 repetition.

14 So we had 34 notices mailed.

15 There were one approval and four objections.

16 Madam Secretary?


18 Mr. Chair.

19 The first approval is from Ann

20 and Kevin Stout -- and I apologize for the

21 mispronunciation -- at 1914 Austin Drive. This

22 residence and our neighborhood, we have a special

23 interest in it's beautification value. Please

24 consider our approval from Mr. Korte's appeals,




1 so he may continue to complete his remodeling

2 process.

3 Next is an objection from Laura

4 Ann Reinhart Quint at 2219 Austin Drive. We

5 strongly object to the structure that Mr. Korte

6 built without a permit. You did not approve this

7 at May 3rd, 2005 meeting, and the only thing

8 that's changed is 52nd Circuit Court signed a

9 judgment and Ordered Mr. Korte to tear this

10 structure down.

11 We are outraged that the

12 residents of Austin are complying with the Code

13 and Mr. Korte is not. If the City of Novi allows

14 this structure to remain, it will be quite

15 apparent that they've disregarded the Court's

16 ruling, and that they are also very selective on

17 there ZBA rulings for certain residents.

18 The next one is from T. Malicki

19 at 2213 Austin. Objection, conforming,

20 nonconforming will not change any side yard

21 variance for construction at 2034 Austin is a

22 fire hazard.

23 Mr. Robins has -- Mr. Mark

24 Robins at 2293 and 2295 has submitted two




1 objections. Mr. Robins indicates that he

2 understands the Mr. Korte has claimed that there

3 was an existing foundation at the property; and

4 that the expansion he has built is not an

5 expansion of a nonconforming use.

6 I believe if there is some sort

7 of slab of concrete there, it's nothing more than

8 just a slab of concrete; not what current

9 Building Codes require to meet the definition of

10 a buildable foundation.

11 There was never a liveable --

12 any inhabited building where he claims there is a

13 foundation. The City of Novi would never allow

14 anyone to build an addition to a home on just an

15 old slab of concrete, regardless of the thickness

16 or consistency. I see no reason to make an

17 exception now. I've been advised that Mr. Korte

18 has consulted an expert regarding his foundation.

19 He claims to have the documentation calling it an

20 existing foundation.

21 I question the validity.

22 Mr. Korte has not allowed the City of Novi access

23 to investigate the claim, but he's willing to

24 bring in an expert. In order for the ZBA to even




1 consider the appeal, our own inspectors should

2 have been granted access; not expected to just

3 take the word of an expert.

4 It is quite lengthy. I will go

5 on for a time.

6 I am not opposed to Mr. Korte

7 improving the property. I am opposed to the

8 current request. I would encourage him to invest

9 his money in cleaning up the (unintelligible)

10 property; and to stop wasting time and money on

11 projects which might lead to eventual

12 endangerment of others.

13 And that concludes the letters,

14 Mr. Chair.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you,

16 Madam Secretary.

17 And now we ask anyone in the

18 audience to please come fault to the podium, if

19 you'd like to address the Board regarding this

20 case.

21 MR. WEINER: Sure. James T.

22 Weiner. I'm the owner of the vacant lot next

23 door. I oppose this, but there's one thing that

24 I did notice -- and I don't have the knowledge




1 and the privy of seeing were your packet -- but,

2 he has not presented when he tore down that shed

3 versus putting it up. If it was down for more

4 than six months -- according to Donald Saven --

5 Mr. Saven's statement -- if it's down for more

6 than six months, it's -- it was outside of the

7 Ordinance, anyways.

8 So, that would be the issue. I

9 don't think that it would -- I think it was down

10 for significantly period of time. I don't know

11 that for a fact. I'm just assuming. As I said,

12 I had opposed it. In terms of the things --

13 something I was running across -- one other thing

14 that I'd like to bring up, is that -- and I don't

15 know if -- Mr. Korte as four properties there or

16 five. I forgot which, but one thing he did say

17 back in 1970 -- 97, he said in front of this

18 Board that he was out of compliance with permits.

19 As we speak in, October 7th, 1977, as we speak, I

20 was before you at a ZBA situation -- not unlike

21 the Breshers -- which is a different case before

22 then -- I have started tearing down and

23 restructuring, and I don't have all my permits in

24 order.




1 Okay. He said then he

2 continually disregarding the City -- rules of the

3 City of Novi. I'm reading directly from the

4 Minutes of October 7th, 1977 meeting

5 (unintelligible) say that. So I just don't want

6 you to reward him for his continual disregard of

7 the Township or the City Ordinance.

8 Thank you.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

10 Anyone else?

11 Please come to the podium.

12 MR. SUTTON: I'll put a

13 photograph on here. I don't know if you can see

14 it.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: If you could

16 please state your name and address, as well, for

17 the record, sir.

18 MR. SUTTON: My name is James

19 Sutton. I live at 2270 Ground in Novi.

20 MEMBER FISCHER: If you could

21 turn your picture around.

22 Thank you.


24 just for the record, can you speak up a little




1 bit. I'm having a hard time hearing you.

2 MR. SUTTON: It's okay.

3 This is picture is of the actual

4 address that we're speaking of at this meeting

5 tonight. And if you look to the right, you will

6 see some fresh plywood. And I hope that all of

7 you have driven by this address, have you? Has

8 everyone?


10 times, yes.

11 MR. SUTTON: And just like

12 Mr. Weiner before me, I mean, we're just sick,

13 because this has been going on for 20 years in

14 this area. This man has owned at least one

15 property or been involved with one property for

16 20 years. But I've been in the subdivision for

17 about 12 years. Nothing has changed.

18 The man some how comes in --

19 even this meeting tonight, we're all shocked that

20 he has even, you know, had the time given to him

21 to come here for what. But, like Mr. Weiner said

22 before him, you know, he took Mr. Saven's, you

23 know, words out of context. And by Mr. Korte's

24 words, too. He said he built it in the '50's.




1 He removed it in the '70's. And according to the

2 rule, it's like a 180 days to rebuild. But these

3 are, you know, facts.

4 And it's just -- it's sad that

5 we're wasting our time here again tonight on this

6 same particular person. And every one of his

7 houses look that bad or worse; and I think that

8 something needs to be done about all of them.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: Well, this one

10 is the one in question tonight, so we'll stick to

11 that as the topic.

12 Is there anyone else?

13 Is there any other comments from

14 you, sir?

15 MR. SUTTON: No, thank you.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

17 Is there anyone else in the

18 audience?

19 If you could please state your

20 name and address for the record.

21 MS. QUINT: Good evening. I'm

22 Laura Quint, 2219 Austin Drive. And yes, we do

23 strongly object to this. Because at the last

24 meeting, Mr. Saven did say -- you know, it was




1 like a 180 days to rebuild. If it was built in

2 the '50's; and he tore it down in the '70's --

3 that's what Mr. Korte said --

4 MR. KORTE: No, it isn't.


6 MS. QUINT: -- that's 30 years or

7 better. You know, I, personally, myself and my

8 family, are tired of being harassed by this

9 gentleman; and now he wants to find away to

10 personally attack me, because I come here and

11 state facts; facts that the Board has found. The

12 Board has turned down.

13 August 4th, the District Court

14 signed a Judgment, tear it down. Here we are.

15 Why? We are all in compliance, but we live on

16 nightmare of Austin Drive. We're in compliance.

17 We are held to the high standards of the City of

18 Novi. I don't mind that. But, you know what, I

19 don't want to be run out of my home that I have

20 spent so much time and energy; and my

21 neighbors -- all of us, except for Mr. Korte -- I

22 know we're discussing this one property -- but

23 take care of the one property. And it's already

24 been stated from the Court, to what was said at




1 the last meeting 180 days, wasn't rebuilt. 30

2 years later, he wants to rebuild without a

3 permit.

4 Had he pulled a permit or tried

5 to pull a permit, he would have known that he

6 couldn't do so; and we wouldn't be here.

7 Thank you.

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

9 much for your comment.

10 Anyone else in the audience?

11 Name and address, as well,

12 please.

13 MR. MARSH: Good evening. My

14 name is Chuck Marsh. I live at 18416

15 (unintelligible) Novi, Michigan. I own two homes

16 on Austin Street, 2001 Austin Street and 2007

17 Austin Street.

18 I purchased those homes less

19 than a year ago. I had no idea a year ago when I

20 purchased those homes that I would be moving on a

21 block like this. I have to say that just about

22 every single resident on that block wants to take

23 care of their home, but also wants to improve it.

24 Since I have bought those




1 properties -- and the property that I bought

2 needed cosmetic work very badly, and I have done

3 that. I met Mr. Korte. I was very cordial to

4 him and very nice to him. He has done nothing

5 but continually called the City on violations as

6 to garbage not being picked up.

7 He has a neighbor told me

8 garbage day was a certain day. I took his word

9 and put it out that day. My point being is this.

10 He's coming up with every excuse by pulling at

11 every other neighbor -- including myself, who

12 barely even knows this man at all -- and saying

13 that I'm in violation of things, which in

14 reality, I am not in any way, shape or form.

15 And his home -- and I know you

16 guys have driven by there -- and the time I've

17 been in this meeting, I see that you do care for

18 the City of Novi. I care for the City of Novi.

19 I've invested a lot of money in these homes. And

20 you go down that street of Austin Street, and I

21 don't believe there's a person on this Board that

22 could honestly say that those properties aren't

23 -- not only an eyesore, but they are dangerous.

24 They are dangerous pieces of property.




1 There is -- on the home that

2 he's talking about, there's a tarp, a blue tarp

3 onto the roof. There's bare wood. And to build

4 on -- to add on, he hasn't finished what he

5 started. I can't imagine anyone on this Board

6 okaying him to do anything new, when he hasn't

7 finished what he started.

8 And if -- this is being

9 televised. I encourage every citizen in Novi to

10 go down Austin Street and see these three

11 properties.

12 MEMBER FISCHER: All right, sir.

13 Let's stick to the facts of the case here.

14 MR. MARSH: Okay.

15 Well, the facts are, that this

16 man is coming up here -- a taxpayer, which I am

17 on two properties on that street -- and I come

18 up, and every single person in every department

19 knows him by name, and no one is doing anything.

20 And I -- as someone who is just purchased two

21 properties in this City -- would like to know

22 why. Why is it he gets away with this? Why is

23 it, as a resident, I have to be in fear of this

24 man coming and making bogus claims against me and




1 my property; and now starting on my tenants,

2 which are young professional girls, and he's

3 starting on them.

4 Where are the protection for us,

5 is what I would I like to know.

6 And the fact that these two

7 properties -- three properties are in extremely

8 bad shape.

9 That's all I have to say.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

11 much for your comments.

12 Anyone else in the audience?

13 Seeing none, we will close the

14 audience participation part of this Hearing, and

15 move to the Building Department.

16 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Chair, Members

17 of the Board, as indicated, this case was before

18 you previously. It was for a dimensional

19 variance. What's before you now is he is

20 contesting my decision regarding the issue of

21 nonconforming matter.

22 As indicated by his letter, this

23 particular foundation housed a pump and a tank, I

24 do believe that's what it was used for. This




1 addition that he's built over the foundation is

2 one which deals with usable floor area. Whether

3 it's habitable or inhabitable (unintelligible)

4 determination of the Code as it exists today.

5 This is the issue why he is here

6 today.

7 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Schultz?

8 MR. SCHULTZ: Just to

9 (unintelligible) a couple of people mentioned

10 the -- why is he here for the second time. This

11 is a different question; fully entitled, just

12 like anybody else that (unintelligible) the

13 Building Department and appeals that decision

14 (unintelligible) just a clarification.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you very

16 much. We appreciate that clarification.

17 And I'll move to Board Member


19 Member Brennan?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: The Petitioner

21 suggested that when we made our decision a few

22 months back that we had a lack of information,

23 and that might be true. It's not the case today.

24 We've got information from the Building




1 Department, and we have information from the

2 Legal Department. And in a nut shell, the

3 Building Department is adamant in their position

4 that the addition wasn't -- was an addition to --

5 was an expansion of a nonconforming structure.

6 Legal as confirmed that

7 position; and if the Board is in agreement, I'll

8 make a Motion.

9 MEMBER FISCHER: Member Krieger?

10 MEMBER KRIEGER: I'm sorry. I

11 have a question. I am not exactly sure what

12 Mr. Korte is looking for. By nonconforming

13 (unintelligible.)

14 MR. SAVEN: That is correct.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: Mr. Schultz?

16 MR. SCHULTZ: Are you looking

17 for an explanation of what a finding of

18 nonconforming would allow him to do?


20 MR. SCHULTZ: He's saying that

21 if Mr. Saven had agreed with him that it was --

22 that this is a nonconforming use, he could

23 rebuild something on that foundation. And

24 Mr. Saven has said in his ruling, no, you can't




1 because your not rebuilding the same thing, a

2 pump house or whatever it was. You're rebuilding

3 an addition on your house with possibly a usable

4 area. That's not permitted under our Ordinance.

5 He's appealing that ruling. And

6 we're -- as Member Brennan has pointed out, in

7 agreement with Mr. Saven's ruling, but you,

8 ultimately, as the ZBA, get to make the

9 determination whether Mr. Saven was correct.


11 (Unintelligible.)

12 MR. SCHULTZ: (Unintelligible)

13 A.

14 MEMBER KRIEGER: I would have a

15 concern that on the slab, if it was a foundation

16 that was safe and secure and you could add onto

17 it, I would not have a issue with what's down

18 there, as long as it meets the Ordinance. If

19 it's the (unintelligible) in feet, the amount

20 space between the neighbors. But, if it's about

21 the word of -- between people then, I have

22 concerns about that also.

23 Thank you.

24 MEMBER FISCHER: Exactly what




1 we're looking at is purely an expansion of a

2 nonconforming use, and Mr. Saven's decision. And

3 so the setback really doesn't have as much

4 concern with this case as that (unintelligible.)

5 MR. SCHULTZ: Correct.


7 Gronachan?


9 Chairman Fischer.

10 Member Krieger, I know this is

11 kind of brand new and different from -- and being

12 that you're the newest member, let me assure you

13 that what's going on here -- if I can just take a

14 minute -- because I think there were some

15 concerns with the residents, as well. So maybe I

16 can clear up both of those.

17 Because this is nonconforming,

18 and to add onto anything that's nonconforming --

19 unless it's the exact same thing, you can't do

20 it. That's the basic thing.

21 Okay. If it was an addition,

22 all right, then they could put another addition.

23 But that's not what he wants to do.

24 Does that help clear it up a




1 little bit?


3 Thank you.


5 I appreciate the fact that

6 everybody tried to stay on fact tonight with the

7 case. And the only thing I'm going to add to

8 this, is that we as a Board, have a whole list of

9 experts that we deal with. Two of them happen to

10 be sitting farther down this table.

11 One has a vast number of years

12 of experience with this City. And as a ZBA

13 Member, to be honest with you, I'm on this Board

14 because of him; because of my respect for him;

15 because of my respect for his knowledge. And if

16 anybody should write a book on how it should be

17 done, I think it should be him, and that's

18 Mr. Saven.

19 There are times when we are --

20 when case are presented to us that this Board

21 Member, doesn't even go to the Legal Department

22 first; she goes right to Mr. Saven. And that's

23 what kind of expertise and vast knowledge that we

24 have at this City.




1 I'm saying that because,

2 Mr. Saven was called upon to make a decision,

3 which he did. And his decision is being

4 questioned. After that decision's being

5 questioned, they took it to our legal department;

6 and our legal department concurred with

7 Mr. Saven. Based on that information presented

8 to this particular Board Member, I am supporting

9 what Mr. Saven has done in his decision; and I

10 concur with what the Legal Department is doing.

11 On a side note, I know that some

12 of you residents are frustrated. But you need to

13 understand, this Board is not God. We are a

14 Hearing Board. We are a sub-judicial Board, if

15 you will, we hear these cases and have to rule

16 accordingly.

17 If you are having a problem, if

18 there is something in this city that's not

19 working for you, take it to City Hall, and start

20 working with the officials, and they will help

21 you in the best way they can. We don't want to

22 loss you as residents. We don't want you to get

23 frustrated, and believe me, this City works very

24 hard to protect it's own.




1 That's all of our own. There's

2 no favoritism. There's no bending over. There's

3 no payoff. And there was reference to it earlier

4 this morning, and you saw this whole table almost

5 take off. So if you have a problem, bring it to

6 City Hall, work with the officials, and get it

7 worked out.

8 And I welcome the newest member

9 in the neighborhood. I apologize that you're

10 having this kind of problem in your neighborhood.

11 I sympathize with you. I've been there. Stick

12 with it. Eventually, it will work itself out.

13 And so I will be in support of

14 any kind of Motion -- I don't know if you want me

15 to go with it or if anybody has anything else to

16 offer, but I'm ready to make a Motion; unless

17 anybody else -- in Case Number 05-37A, I move to

18 affirm the determination of the Building Official

19 to deny a building permit for the existing

20 addition for 2034 Austin, on the grounds that the

21 addition constitutes an unlawful expansion of a

22 previously existing nonconforming structure.

23 The addition would extend the

24 life of this structure; thereby increasing the




1 existing nonconformity.


3 MEMBER FISCHER: There is a

4 Motion and a second on the table.

5 Is there any further discussion

6 from Board Members?

7 Member Krieger?


9 Thank you.

10 I concur with the previous

11 speakers and would hope that Mr. Korte would

12 review the information and -- for the

13 nonconforming structure, and go back to -- with

14 Mr. Saven and work it out, also.

15 Thank you.

16 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you for

17 those comments.

18 There is a Motion and a second.

19 Any other discussion?

20 Ms. Backus, will you please call

21 the roll in this case.

22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?





2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Krieger?


6 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?


8 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

9 to zero.

10 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time

11 the Motion --

12 MR. KORTE: Could you speak up,

13 please, sir.

14 I apologize.

15 MEMBER FISCHER: At this time

16 the Building Official's decision has been upheld.

17 MR. KORTE: Thank you.

18 MEMBER FISCHER: Thank you.

19 MR. KORTE: I will see you in

20 Circuit Court.

21 Have a nice evening.


23 MEMBER FISCHER: And that is the

24 end of the cases before us tonight.





2 And last we are moving to other

3 matters. And tonight we have something back

4 before us concerning ZBA Case Number 05-112, for

5 43443 Grand River, formerly Antiques and Pines

6 Design in our packets. We did receive a letter,

7 and basically the Petitioner is requesting an

8 extension for permitting.

9 I guess I would ask the Building

10 Department if they'd like to comment?

11 MR. SAVEN: I sure would.

12 Right now, the City of Novi and

13 the surrounding districts are going through a

14 change in the FEMA elevations or (unintelligible)

15 maps for flood planes. This was a proposed

16 project that was approved, but cannot move

17 forward until we have this approval for the

18 change in elevation. Basically, it's almost

19 physically impossible to take care of this one

20 project that was approved.

21 They need to have that approval.

22 It's supposed to happen sometime in -- if I can

23 recall, it's supposed to happen sometime in

24 October. I'm not sure when in October. But like




1 any other Government (unintelligible) it maybe a

2 little bit longer than that.

3 The maps have been done, but

4 they went through the public Hearing, and all the

5 changes that are necessary, it's going to be a

6 prolonged -- it's going to be a prolonged issue

7 you for reproduction of new maps and new

8 elevations.

9 I would ask that we grant the

10 one year extension to this. I feel comfortable

11 within that one year extension -- I don't want

12 this gentleman hanging outs there in no man's

13 land in the event, I can't do anything.

14 So if it's possible, I'd ask the

15 Board to grant them a one year extension for the

16 ZBA approval.


18 were -- the Motion was passed on November 9th of

19 2004. They had nine months from there, I guess,

20 or a year additional?

21 MR. SAVEN: At least a year

22 additional.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Are you asking

24 that be from today?




1 MR. SAVEN: From today.


3 Today.

4 MR. SAVEN: I just want to cover

5 all the bases, because I'm not bringing them back

6 (unintelligible) yo-yo. I don't have control

7 offer this. This is a little --

8 MEMBER FISCHER: Are you telling

9 me government can take a little longer than

10 anticipated, sometimes?

11 Member Brennan, you have the

12 floor.

13 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd make a

14 Motion with respect to Case, 05-0112, that the

15 Petitioner's request for an extension be granted

16 for one year from this evening.


18 MEMBER FISCHER: There's a

19 Motion and a second.

20 Ms. Backus, will you call the

21 roll.

22 GAIL BACKUS: Member Brennan?


24 GAIL BACKUS: Member Sanghvi?





2 GAIL BACKUS: Member Fischer?


4 GAIL BACKUS: Member Gronachan?


6 GAIL BACKUS: And Member

7 Krieger?


9 GAIL BACKUS: Motion passes five

10 to zero.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: All right.

12 That concludes our meeting for

13 tonight.


15 (Unintelligible) you needed a answer on this

16 calendar?

17 MEMBER FISCHER: She already

18 accepted the dates for us on -- given, you know,

19 recommendations we had from last year anyway. So

20 this already set up by the Clerk's Office,

21 anyway. Last year we were able to make some

22 adjustments, because of the fact of the holidays.

23 But Gail was so kind that she took care of that

24 already.




1 So it's for our information

2 only for next year, calendar year.


4 need an answer tonight, on my note.


6 Office needed an answer from Gail.

7 Seeing no other business before

8 this Board, I would entertain a Motion to

9 adjourn.

10 MEMBER BRENNAN: So moved.

11 MEMBER FISCHER: All in favor

12 say aye?


14 MEMBER FISCHER: This Board is

15 adjourned.

16 (The meeting was adjourned at

17 10:20 p.m.)

18 - - - - -










1 C E R T I F I C A T E


3 I, Machelle Billingslea-Moore,

4 do hereby certify that I have recorded

5 stenographically the proceedings had and testimony

6 taken in the above-entitled matter at the time and

7 place hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify

8 that the foregoing transcript, consisting of (162)

9 typewritten pages, is a true and correct transcript

10 of my said stenograph notes.



13 ___________________________

Machelle Billingslea-Moore,

14 Certified Shorthand Reporter


16 September 21, 2005.