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View Action Summary for this meeting

THURSDAY, NOVEMBER 6, 2003 -- 7:30 P.M.

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Thursday, November 6, 2003.

Cynthia Gronachan, chairman
Frank Brennan
Robert Gatt
Sarah Gray
Laverne Reinke

Don Saven, Building Department
Sarah Marchioni, Building Department
Thomas Schultz, City Attorney

Cheryl L. James, Certified Shorthand Reporter

1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I realize that it's a

2 few minutes early, but we will get started, since our

3 cases are here this evening. I see them out in the

4 audience.

5 Sarah, please call -- I'd like to --

6 sorry -- the November 2003 Zoning Board of Appeals

7 meeting to order.

8 Sarah, please call the roll.

9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer, he's

10 absent excused.

11 Member Brennan?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?

16 MEMBER GRAY: Present.


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The Zoning Board of

21 Appeals is a hearing board empowered by the Novi City

22 Charter to hear appeals seeking variances from the

23 application of the Novi zoning ordinances.

24 It takes a vote of at least four



1 members to approve a variance request, and a vote of

2 majority of the members present to deny a variance.

3 This evening -- I'm going to step out

4 of this little reading that I do and explain that we

5 have five members here this evening. Our fifth

6 member has been elected to the city council and will

7 only be sitting in on the first case since that case

8 has been tabled from last month, and that will leave

9 four members for that case. The rest of the cases

10 heard this evening will only have four members.

11 Any petitioners who wish to table their

12 request this evening until the next meeting when a

13 full board is present may do so now. Any board

14 decision made tonight will be final.

15 We had the agenda in our packet -- or,

16 I'm sorry. Is there any changes to the agenda?

17 MS. MARCHIONI: Just one. Please at

18 2450 Shawood under other matters.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. That's going to

20 be presented by Mr. Saven.

21 And I would like to add the discussion

22 of the contact of the city council for an alternate

23 and a new ZBA member and not wait until January.

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair?




2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I just want to make

3 sure that the audience understands that we will only

4 have four members voting on these cases tonight. You

5 have to have all four to be approved, okay, so if you

6 aren't real sure with your case, or would like to

7 have more members hear your case, now is the time to

8 raise your hand.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. You can come

10 down to the podium so the folks at home can hear you,

11 please.

12 MR. GERACZ: Okay. I just want to wait

13 until the next agenda.

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm sorry, sir. Can I

15 have your name, please.

16 MR. GERACZ: It's Robert Geracz,

17 G-e-r-a-c-z. I would be number 12.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. So you wish to

19 table it until next month?

20 MR. GERACZ: Which would be December

21 2nd; is that correct?


23 MR. GERACZ: Okay. If I may do so. Is

24 that it?



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's it, sir.

2 MR. GERACZ: Thank you very much.

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone

4 else that wishes to have their case tabled until next

5 month?

6 (No response.)

7 UNIDENTIFIED: I have a question. I'm

8 here representing Gander Mountain on their sign

9 issue, and I'm here with the assumption that there

10 will be some give and take with the board about the

11 size of the signs, size and number of signs. Will

12 that still be the case tonight?

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, it's the same

14 board. I'm sure that when we review your case, as we

15 discussed with you last month, that would still, you

16 know, that discussion will go on.

17 You can probably -- my suggestion, if

18 you would, is probably have the discussion this

19 month, because we have the correct information-

20 UNIDENTIFIED: (Interposing) Yes.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: -and see how it goes

22 as opposed to tabling it.

23 UNIDENTIFIED: Thank you.

24 MEMBER GRAY: Another gentleman just



1 came in in the back.

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else?

3 (No response.)

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I apologize for the

5 inconvenience to anyone who had to table their case,

6 but these things are just unforeseen.

7 Minutes. We had the minutes in our

8 packet. Are there any changes or -- I'm sorry. Any

9 changes to the minutes?

10 (No response.)

11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All in favor of the

12 approval of the minutes from last month, say aye.

13 (Vote taken.)

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Opposed?

15 (Vote taken.)

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: None. At this time,

17 if there's anyone in the audience that wishes to make

18 a public remark in regards to a case other than

19 that's -- what's on the agenda this evening, they can

20 now approach the board and speak their peace so to

21 speak. Anyone in the audience that has anything to

22 say to the ZBA?

23 (No response.)

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Seeing none, we



1 will go ahead and call our first case; however,

2 before we call our first case, there's a lot of

3 changes here this evening. I, again, will recuse

4 myself from Case Number 03-086. This has been tabled

5 from last month.

6 Mr. Miras is here, and Mr. Gatt will be

7 taking that position. Miss Gray will be running the

8 meeting.


10 CASE NUMBER 03-086

11 MEMBER GRAY: First case, Mr. Miras.

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Mr. Miras does not

13 have to be sworn. This is a continuation.

14 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. Do you want to

15 continue with your -- any other information you may

16 have?

17 MR. MIRAS: Okay. Well, we were before

18 the board last month for two variances, one for a

19 hundred and twenty foot variance -- or thirty foot

20 variance, from one twenty to one fifty, and the

21 second one was a setback variance of four feet six

22 inches.

23 And because with this variance it would

24 not make up an acre lot, we now request that a third



1 variance to conform to the acreage, and the third

2 variance would be .311 acres that we're requesting.

3 And with these three variances it would

4 make this lot a buildable lot conforming to all the

5 rest of the lots in the adjoining area.

6 The reason it is not conformed right

7 now is because of the zoning change after it was

8 purchased, after I purchased it. It went -- it

9 changed zoning, so as of right now it's not buildable

10 but with these three variances it would conform to

11 everything that's surrounding it.

12 So that's what we're asking the board

13 to do.

14 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you. This was

15 renoticed, wasn't it? Okay. There were seventeen

16 notices sent; three approvals, one objection. And

17 for the-

18 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) The pink

19 one is the second one.

20 MEMBER GRAY: Second one. Seventeen

21 notices sent; nine approvals, zero objections, none

22 sent back.

23 The only objection was from last month,

24 and -- okay.



1 Is there anybody in the audience who

2 wishes to address the board on this matter?

3 (No response.)

4 MEMBER GRAY: No one. Okay. Building

5 Department?

6 MR. SAVEN: As indicated, the gentleman

7 was before us -- or before you at the last meeting,

8 and the issue regarding the R-A district is one which

9 is the additional variance which is before you. The

10 other two variances are the same. There were no

11 changes to those particular variances. It's a fact

12 that this is an R-A zoning district and should have

13 been picked up. I do apologize for not picking it

14 up. I apologize to the applicant and the board

15 members here. It was my responsibility except it was

16 overlooked. Anyhow, that's the reason why he's here

17 today.

18 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you. Members of

19 the board? Mr. Brennan.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Mr. Miras, if this lot

21 is split, what's your intentions, what do you plan on

22 doing?

23 MR. MIRAS: The buyer intends to build

24 on it. I don't know when, but he does intend to



1 build.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: So you've got somebody

3 lined up to buy this parcel?

4 MR. MIRAS: Yes, I do.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's all. Thank

6 you.

7 MEMBER GATT: I have a question. If a

8 new buyer purchases the lot, will he or she then have

9 to come before the city council or the board?

10 MR. SAVEN: No.

11 MEMBER GATT: No. So the variance, if

12 it's granted tonight, will-

13 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) Stays with

14 the property.

15 MEMBER GRAY: Goes with the property

16 unless they need setback variances, which then would

17 pull it back here; is that correct, Mr. Saven?

18 MR. SAVEN: Pardon me?

19 MEMBER GRAY: If any variances are

20 requested, it would come back to us, correct?

21 MR. SAVEN: That's correct. If it was

22 for an issue regarding the building and the setback

23 requirements for the building, it would require them

24 to come back to the Zoning Board of Appeals.



1 MEMBER GATT: Then I have another

2 question. How many homes on that block now do not

3 comply with the R-A?

4 MR. SAVEN: That I couldn't tell you,

5 sir.

6 MEMBER GATT: Are there homes there

7 now?

8 MR. MIRAS: Fourteen.

9 MEMBER GATT: Are there homes there now

10 that do not comply?

11 MR. MIRAS: I think-

12 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) I'm not

13 sure. It goes back to the possible potential change

14 in the zoning district from what it was to what it is

15 now, and what we consider grandfathering it,

16 grandfathering no longer is part of the ordinance, so

17 it could be that there are conflicts out there.

18 MEMBER GRAY: Mr. Gatt, it says that

19 the City-initiated rezoning happened in March of '89,

20 so it went from R-1 to R-A in March of '89, which is

21 well over ten years, closing in on fifteen.

22 MEMBER GATT: Does anybody on the board

23 know, since March of '89 has this board granted

24 variances in the lot size?



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Not lot sizes. I

2 remember setback cases in that area.

3 MEMBER REINKE: It's hard to say

4 because you're looking at individual cases, and

5 usually it's when somebody's building something out

6 there. I don't recall us running into lot splits.

7 With the existing zoning being an R-1, it would

8 comply with that.

9 With no objections from the neighbors

10 of what you're trying to do and everything else, I

11 really don't have a problem with what he's trying to

12 do.

13 MEMBER GATT: I know. I just -- okay.

14 Thank you.

15 When did you buy the lot?

16 MR. MIRAS: About 21 years ago.

17 MEMBER GATT: About 21 years ago?

18 MR. MIRAS: Yes.

19 MEMBER GATT: Thank you.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd like to move this

21 along. I'll make a motion with respect to Case

22 03-086, I would move that we grant the variance in

23 this case because the petitioner has established a

24 practical difficulty. The compliance with this



1 strict letter of the restrictions of the ordinance

2 would unreasonably prevent the use of the property

3 and be unnecessary burdensome.

4 One of the variances is very minuscule

5 given the size of the property. He would have met it

6 under the zoning that he bought it for. I think it's

7 only fair that the variance is granted.


9 MEMBER GATT: So the motion for support

10 is for all three variances?

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes, sir.

12 MEMBER GRAY: Any further discussion on

13 the motion?

14 (No further discussion.)

15 MEMBER GRAY: I just have some comments

16 I'd like to place on the record. Generally when

17 there is a lot split and it takes one parcel that is

18 conforming and then leaves us with two parcels that,

19 for all intents and purposes, are nonconforming,

20 which is what we have in this case, I generally would

21 not support it. However, since the -- under -- since

22 the zoning has been in affect there, the houses that

23 are in existence do -- it's not going to be any

24 different. I apologize for my fumbling. It's not



1 going to be different, so I am going to support this,

2 although in general I would not.

3 So, Sarah, would you call the roll,

4 please.

5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

14 nothing.

15 MEMBER GRAY: Motion passes four to

16 nothing. Mr. Miras, You have your variances. See

17 the building department.

18 MR. MIRAS: Thank you very much.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair, I'd like

20 to go on the record as congratulating Mr. Gatt and

21 thanking him for his time that he spent on the ZBA

22 and wish you well on city council. Your meetings

23 will be longer.

24 MEMBER GRAY: And much more frequent.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thanks a lot.

2 MEMBER GATT: Thank you everybody. I

3 enjoyed my time here, and I want the public to know,

4 watching them here, that you have a very dedicated

5 board here, and we should be very proud of them.

6 Thank you very much.

7 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you.

8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Bob, I just want to

9 say thank you for coming in tonight, especially for

10 this case. And it would have caused an inconvenience

11 to the resident tabling it again, and you helped me

12 out.

13 And so, again, congratulations.

14 MEMBER GATT: Thank you, you all.

15 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, there are

16 some people who came in after the fact, and in light

17 of the situation, you may want to offer the same

18 courtesy to them about tabling.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: For those who arrived

20 late to the meeting this evening, normally we have a

21 full board; however, this evening we do not due to

22 the fact, as you saw, that one of our members was

23 just elected to city council, and we do not have an

24 alternate.



1 This evening, because we have only four

2 voting members, you will need all four votes for your

3 cases to be approved.

4 If you're not comfortable with that and

5 you wish to table your case until next month, anyone

6 who's come in late and didn't hear me say that

7 earlier, can do so now, if you're interested in doing

8 that.

9 Is there anyone else that would be

10 interested in tabling the case because we do not have

11 a full board this evening?

12 (No response.)


14 CASE NUMBER 03-079

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Seeing none,

16 we'll move next to Case Number 03-079 filed by David

17 Banyon at 25827 Strath Haven.

18 Mr. Banyon is requesting three

19 variances for the construction of a proposed

20 two-story home with an attached garage.

21 Good evening. Are you Mr. Banyon?

22 MR. BANYON: Yes, I am.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you please raise

24 your right hand and be sworn in by our temporary



1 secretary, Mr. Brennan.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm

3 that the information you're going to give us tonight

4 will be the truth?

5 MR. BANYON: I do.

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Go ahead.

7 MR. BANYON: I'm here tonight to

8 request three variances for construction of a

9 proposed two-story home with an attached garage.

10 The first variance is a front setback

11 variance of 9.86 feet. This is the bare minimum.

12 The house itself falls within the setback, but the

13 porch actually extends over, which is why we require

14 the front variance.

15 I'm also requesting a side yard setback

16 variance of 2.37 feet, and a total aggregate side

17 variance of .36 feet.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Anything else?

19 MR. BANYON: Nope, that's it.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. There were

21 twenty-nine notices sent; two approvals, no

22 objections -- this is a table -- I'm sorry. So the

23 second, there were twenty-nine notices sent; one

24 approval, no objections.



1 Is there anyone in the audience that

2 wishes to address the board in regards to this case?

3 (No response.)

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Building

5 Department?

6 MR. SAVEN: I will inform the board

7 this -- Pioneer Meadows is probably one of the most

8 fun subdivisions as far as zoning goes.

9 I don't know how long anybody's --

10 going back in time, this particular project was

11 initially zoned agricultural, then it went to R-4,

12 then it went to R-1, then it went to R-A zoning

13 district. It's a very complicated subdivision.

14 As you can recall, there was a time

15 when we did have grandfathering as part of the

16 ordinance. It's no longer part of the ordinance;

17 therefore, we're still under the R-A zoning district,

18 and those are the variances that are before you

19 today, based upon the R-A zoning district.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, thank you.

21 Board members?

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. Audience?

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm sorry. I already

24 did the audience.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'm sorry.

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members. Is

3 there a homeowner's association?

4 MR. BANYON: Yes, there is.

5 MEMBER GRAY: Do you have a letter of

6 approval from them?

7 MR. BANYON: I submitted signed -- they

8 signed my prints and my site plans. I submitted them

9 to the building department with my permit

10 application. So, yes, I did speak with the

11 association.

12 MEMBER GRAY: I didn't see it on here.

13 Thank you.

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else?

15 MEMBER BRENNAN: Sure. My take on this

16 is that these requirements are fairly minimal. It --

17 the house itself, in this location, fits with what is

18 already in that subdivision, and if we had an

19 overwhelming nonsupport from his neighbors, if they

20 were here, I'd feel different, but I'm compelled to

21 support the petitioner.


23 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman?

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, Member Reinke.



1 MEMBER REINKE: Really, the

2 intrusions -- the side yard setbacks, you're looking

3 at 50 feet aggregate. You got 2.37 and .36, and the

4 front yard setback is mainly due to a porch overhang,

5 so it's really a minimum intrusion of the building

6 into the setbacks, so I can support the petitioner's

7 request.

8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. I concur with

9 the three members.

10 Anyone would like to make a motion?

11 MEMBER GRAY: I'd like to ask a

12 question before we make a motion. You said that the

13 porch is the reason. Doesn't your garage extend even

14 closer to the front, or is there a variance -- it

15 looks like the garage is closer to the road.

16 MR. BANYON: Yeah. The garage does

17 extend over, and it's -- well, it's due to the shape

18 of the lot at the front of the -- where it meets

19 Strath Haven.


21 MR. BANYON: So, yeah, it does -- the

22 garage does come over as well.

23 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. Madam Chair, in

24 the matter of Case 03-079, I'll move to approve the



1 variance requested due to the lot configuration and

2 the fact that the variances requested, at least on

3 the sides, are minimal.


5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: We have a motion and a

6 second. Any further discussion?

7 (No further discussion.)

8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the

9 roll.

10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

19 nothing.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Mr. Banyon, you

21 received your variance. Please go see the building

22 department.

23 MR. BANYON: Thank you very much.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You're welcome.




2 CASE NUMBER 03-081

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moving now to Case

4 Number 03-081 filed by Stanley -- and I'll apologize

5 ahead of time -- Golembiewski at

6 24706 Glenda. Mr. Golembiewski is requesting a 280

7 square foot variance for construction of an addition

8 to an attached garage.

9 This case was tabled from last month,

10 and I take it you went back home and did some

11 homework.

12 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Well, I -- with

13 extra expense, I decided that I was going to go

14 against the garage. My neighbors didn't like it. It

15 was asking for, I guess, too many square feet, so

16 what I did is I changed my plan.

17 Right now I want an extension on my

18 existing attached garage of 280 square feet.

19 The garage I have now, my handicap van

20 doesn't fit in. There's -- the garage itself is

21 seven foot five inches for the opening, and my van is

22 eight foot five inches tall, so -- and with the lift

23 in the van -- I mean, the lift that's in the garage,

24 it takes up ten feet from the back of the garage, so



1 that it doesn't leave enough room to put a vehicle

2 inside.

3 So what I'm requesting is that I can

4 have the extension of ten feet and then two garage

5 doors so that I can utilize the one garage door to go

6 in and drop the lift and my son won't have to be out

7 in the weather, my handicapped son.

8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Anything else?

9 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: That's it.

10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Is there

11 anyone in the audience that wishes to speak on behalf

12 of this case?

13 Sir, would you like to come down,

14 please, to the podium.

15 And I'm going to ask, if you could,

16 please, turn the microphones a little into you. When

17 I was in the back they were having a little problem

18 hearing the residents talk, so if you could just --

19 that would be great. Thank you very much.

20 MR. KEMP: My name is Paul Kemp. I

21 reside at 24742 Glenda, and my wife and I own the

22 property adjacent to Mr. Golembiewski on the north

23 side.

24 After Mr. Golembiewski's earlier



1 attempt at circumventing the Novi zoning ordinances,

2 he effectively turned his property into a stockade

3 and erected a six-foot high opaque fence. I don't

4 know if this is Fort Stanley, needs a mote and a

5 drawbridge.

6 But when you turned him down with his

7 earlier variance request, you told him that he should

8 go to his neighbors and enlist their support. Not

9 only has he not done this with his latest request,

10 but by erecting the fence he has figuratively thumbed

11 his nose at his neighbors and said I will do as I

12 please, I don't care what you think.

13 In addition to this, if you look at his

14 proposal, you will find that, according to his

15 figures, his house is seven feet longer on one side

16 than the other, which is then not even a

17 parallelogram. It looks more like a trapezoid, so I

18 find his figures in error.

19 Now, any support that I might have been

20 able to give Mr. Golembiewski for this request faded

21 and disappeared when he erected that fence.

22 So I am totally opposed to granting

23 this variance, and I thank you for your time.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone



1 else?

2 MS. PAWLAK: My name is Laurel Pawlak,

3 and I live at 24561 Glenda. I own the property

4 directly across the street from this gentleman, as

5 well as directly to the south of this across the

6 street, and I don't have a problem with it.

7 I think that some people are angry over

8 a fence that has nothing do with his garage.

9 He is trying to accommodate a

10 handicapped son he doesn't want to take out in the

11 weather. He's trying to have -- be able to take his

12 child, his son who's handicapped, inside the garage

13 so his son doesn't have to be out in a driveway in

14 the wintertime when he's trying to take him to and

15 from doctor appointments.

16 That's all this is really for. The

17 garage is just so his son will not have to be

18 outside, so he doesn't have to shovel a path to get

19 his son in and out of his own car because the car

20 won't fit in the existing garage.

21 I think people are angry over a fence.

22 I have nothing to do with that. I'm looking at just

23 that he's -- his son has suffered a terrible tragedy,

24 and I think it would be a tragedy if this council is



1 so insensitive that they would not allow him to take

2 his son in and out of his own car inside the comfort

3 of the garage.

4 I don't even know this man other than

5 this issue, but I -- and I'm just going from the

6 heart. If you had a handicapped son in a wheelchair,

7 would you not want them to grant your request so you

8 could take your son in or out of your van that won't

9 go in the garage the way it is now?

10 Thank you.

11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Anyone

12 else in the audience?

13 (No response.)

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there were

15 thirty-three notices sent; five approvals, no

16 objections. And I do have a request in the file here

17 to read this at the meeting. This is from Kim Burns

18 at 24560 Glenda. I'm going to -- it's a little hard

19 to read.

20 Give these people a break. Think about

21 what you'd do if you were in the same situation,

22 especially with limited resources to help your only

23 child. Neighbors are supposed to come together and

24 help each other in our community. Each objecting



1 person better think about what he or she would do if

2 this happened to them tomorrow, or anytime in the

3 future.

4 And the rest of the letters are

5 basically approvals.

6 Building Department?

7 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out that this

8 is an R-4 zoning district. The 30 foot setback

9 requirement has been met. This is strictly for the

10 sum total of the accessory structures on that

11 particular lot. It's for the 280 square foot.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members?

13 MEMBER REINKE: Question, if I could,

14 for the Building Department.

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke.

16 MEMBER REINKE: Does the fence that has

17 been erected comply with the City ordinance?

18 MR. SAVEN: The fence requirements are

19 the six-foot high requirement for the fence. The

20 subdivision associations normally have certain

21 requirements for the type of fence. In terms of a

22 fence itself, a height requirement is the main issue,

23 and if it's six foot it does comply.

24 MEMBER REINKE: Thank you.



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Brennan.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah. I wasn't

3 prepared to even discuss a fence. That's not before

4 us.

5 I'll ask the petitioner -- I think I

6 figured this out. On -- the north wall of your home,

7 existing home, is 60 feet. We're showing 57 on the

8 south, but I -- it looks to me like your garage is a

9 little bit set back, and maybe that's where that

10 three foot difference is?

11 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: I don't -- the

12 porch -- the porch is set back.

13 MEMBER BRENNAN: The porch sticks out a

14 little farther than the garage does?

15 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: The porch is set

16 back. The front of the house and then where the

17 front door is is set back pretty deep, and that goes

18 -- that's where the garage wall starts.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: So the numbers that

20 are on your drawing are, indeed, correct?

21 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Pretty much I'd say.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have the same

23 general feeling. If -- by nature of this board, we

24 hear cases for variances based on need, and if this



1 isn't a case of need I don't know what is.

2 Sir, I'm prepared to support your

3 proposal as submitted.

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray.

5 MEMBER GRAY: My initial comments on

6 reviewing this submission are much better. Thank you

7 very much. It's a greatly reduced request, which is

8 what we encouraged.

9 Whether he met with his neighbors or

10 not, I'm sorry that you didn't if you didn't.

11 As several of the neighbors did bring

12 up last month, that the son was handicapped before he

13 bought this house, and so I'm not taking that into

14 consideration; however, I am taking into

15 consideration that you want additional garage space

16 for the need. And I'm not insensitive to your needs,

17 but I think because this is greatly reduced and you

18 do need the extra storage space, I'm prepared to

19 approve this variance because it is much, much less

20 than what was previously requested.

21 And having said that, I would be

22 willing to move, after your comments.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you, Member

24 Gray. I would like to just make some comments on the



1 record.

2 I concur with Member Brennan, and I

3 have to point out that, obviously, this petitioner

4 must have worked with some neighbors because last

5 month we had two approvals and three objections, and

6 this month we have five approvals and one objection

7 present. So, obviously, you did listen to the board

8 and heed some guidance from us, or some advice if you

9 will.

10 And, so, therefore, I will also -- but

11 I wanted to put that on the record about the fact

12 that there are some approvals here, and there is a

13 big change from last month.

14 So you can go ahead now. Thank you.

15 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, in the

16 matter of Case 03-081, I would move to approve the

17 variance requested as it meets the spirit and intent

18 of the ordinance and will not adversely impact

19 neighboring properties, and that it represents a

20 lesser variance than previously requested.


22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: We have a motion and a

23 support. Any further discussion on the motion?

24 (No further discussion.)



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

2 please call the roll.

3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


11 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

12 zero.

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been

14 granted. Please see the building department.

15 MR. GOLEMBIEWSKI: Thank you very much.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.


18 CASE NUMBER 03-083

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-083

20 filed by Allied Signs for Caribou Coffee at

21 47490 Grand River in the West Market Square. Allied

22 Signs is requesting a one sign variance to erect one

23 wall sign on the south elevation for Caribou Coffee.

24 Would you please state your names and



1 raise your right hand to be sworn in by our

2 secretary.


4 MR. SEEVER: Patrick Seever.

5 MS. KAISER: Kim Kaiser.

6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you both swear or

7 affirm that the information you're going to give us

8 tonight will be the truth?


10 MR. SEEVER: As I just said, my name is

11 Patrick. I'm actually from Allied, and tonight I'm

12 here representing Caribou Coffee.

13 We are requesting from the board

14 additional signage at the Caribou Coffee that is

15 located on Grand River Avenue.

16 What we are actually requesting is a

17 second sign on the south elevation of the building

18 that faces Grand River. This is being requested

19 because they feel that there's a lack of

20 identification for the Caribou.

21 The existing sign right now is located

22 on the west elevation, so traffic going westbound on

23 Grand River has no visibility to Caribou, as well as

24 northbound traffic traveling on Beck Road.



1 So basically we are asking for a second

2 sign on that south elevation in order to better

3 identify the store.

4 On that elevation there are also other

5 signs for other entrances on that side for the other

6 stores in the strip there, but Caribou is actually --

7 the entrance is on the west elevation, but still

8 there is no visibility to that from the south side.

9 So we're asking for a variance for

10 26.28 square foot illuminated sign on the south

11 elevation.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, thank you. Is

13 there anyone in the audience that wishes to address

14 the board in regards to this case?

15 (No response.)

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

17 were seven notices sent; no approvals, no objections.

18 Building Department?

19 MR. SAVEN: Just one question. The

20 signage, is it consistent with the other signs

21 throughout the complex?

22 MR. SEEVER: Yes, sir. It's actually

23 smaller even.

24 MR. SAVEN: Okay.



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members?

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Ma'am, are you with

3 Allied or with Caribou?

4 MS. KAISER: I'm with Caribou Coffee.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you have any

6 supporting evidence that you can talk to us about

7 that demonstrates that not having the sign out front

8 on the Grand River side-

9 MS. KAISER: (Interposing) I don't

10 have any of my customers with me, but I do have many

11 customers that come into our store that have

12 searched, trying to find us, you know, because we've

13 told them where we are, but since they can't see us

14 if they're coming westbound at all, you know, you

15 pass us. If you look in your rearview mirror you

16 might catch us, but they've gone through the whole

17 complex looking for us before.

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make note for the

19 record that their address is Grand River Avenue.


21 MEMBER BRENNAN: So it's a destination

22 site, somebody's traveling on

23 Grand River looking for them.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else? Member



1 Gray.

2 MEMBER GRAY: I don't have a problem

3 with the sign. It is smaller than the one that's on

4 the west facade, and I think for identification

5 purposes on Grand River, that it certainly could be

6 warranted. They've been there long enough that they

7 probably know what else they need, and it's not that

8 different from other cases on corners.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I concur as well. I

10 -- basically, when I was looking at this building,

11 because of the building shape, it's just a different

12 kind of shape. I know it's a square building, but it

13 really isn't when you're driving to it. With the

14 Blockbuster at the angle, it kind of throws you off

15 when you're coming down Grand River and you're

16 looking -- it just -- there's just nothing there.

17 I frequent your restaurant often, so I

18 do know where it is, but I -- when I was going down

19 Grand River during rush hour and looking for the

20 sign, I did see the sign, but I don't know how

21 anybody could have found it off of Grand River.

22 So I concur with the other members,

23 that because this is a Grand River address, and

24 because of the size and shape of the building as



1 well, that I don't see anything wrong with this

2 additional sign.

3 Having said that --

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion.

5 With respect to Case 03-083 for Caribou Coffee, I

6 would move petitioner's request for a second sign on

7 Grand River be granted for business identification

8 purposes.

9 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Second. Been moved

10 and seconded that this variance be granted. Is there

11 any further discussion on the request -- on the

12 motion?

13 (No further discussion.)

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

15 would you please call the roll.

16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


24 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to



1 nothing.

2 MR. SEEVER: Thank you for your time.

3 MS. SEEVER: Thank you very much.

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.


6 CASE NUMBER 03-088

7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Let's go to

8 Case Number 03-088 filed by Design Forum representing

9 Gander Mountain. This is tabled from last month.

10 Gander Mountain is requesting nine sign

11 variances to erect five wall signs at the Gander

12 Mountain store located at 43825 West Oaks Drive in

13 the West Oaks Shopping Center.

14 Gentlemen, would you like to come on

15 down?

16 UNIDENTIFIED: Esteemed members of

17 board, good evening.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good evening. Before

19 we get started, the gentleman that was here last

20 month doesn't need to be sworn in, but if you would

21 identify yourself and be sworn in by our secretary,

22 please.

23 MR. BLEDWORTH: My name is Chuck

24 Bledworth. I'm vice president of development with



1 Ramco Gershanson, owners of West Oaks I and West Oaks

2 II.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: You want to raise your

4 right hand, sir?

5 Do you swear or affirm that everything

6 you're going to tell us is going to be the truth?


8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thank you.

9 MR. BLEDWORTH: Good evening. I'm just

10 doing a brief introduction of what it is we're doing

11 at West Oaks I. We have a long history of working in

12 terms of retenanting and redeveloping West Oaks I and

13 II Centers with the City of Novi. It goes back many,

14 many years.

15 We replaced the Kroger and put in the Circuit City.

16 In '99 we added Joanne, ETC., in West Oaks II, and

17 expanded the Kohl's. In 2000 we redid the building

18 in front of West Oaks II with the Jared Jewelers, and

19 with the expanded Starbucks Coffee. And then last

20 year we added the Carabas Restaurant.

21 And tonight we're certainly very

22 excited because we're here with Gander Mountain,

23 who's a terrific retail concept, who's taking the

24 entire Kmart -- former Kmart building and putting in



1 an extremely unique use that is not only unique to

2 Novi but really to the entire metropolitan area.

3 It's a brand new concept. They're rolling out around

4 the country, and we think it's going to be -- make a

5 tremendous difference to our shopping centers and to

6 the customer interest and will be a terrific addition

7 to the City of Novi.

8 MR. BARRETT: Madam Chair, members of

9 the board, I'm Larry Barrett here representing Gander

10 Mountain to expand a little bit on what Chuck just

11 said.

12 One of the reasons I'm here is I'm

13 actually part of a development company that has

14 developed a couple -- two of these brand-new concept

15 stores for Gander Mountain. They're now in the

16 hundred thousand square foot range as opposed to

17 their earlier concept of 28 to 30,000 square feet,

18 and they are very exciting stores, and I'm here to

19 represent them and requesting sign variances on the

20 former Kmart Store.

21 I'm accompanied by Scott Sizney who's

22 the regional vice president for Gander Mountain, and

23 John Schiel (ph) who's the district manager from

24 Gander Mountain. These men will be the ones



1 responsible for making this store be as exciting as

2 the other ones that they've done so far and are the

3 ones that are -- have real hands-on concern with the

4 amount of signage and exposure that the store has.

5 We recognize that we're asking for a

6 lot of variances and ask that you be liberal from

7 them.

8 The store is about 11 -- liberal in

9 your approach to them. This is the last approval we

10 need prior to getting started with our remodeling.

11 Among the reasons we think we need the

12 number and size signs that we've applied for is that

13 the store is eleven hundred eight feet from Novi

14 Road, and if you've looked at the mockups -- and

15 they're the right ones this time -- you -- from Novi

16 Road you just see the top of that sign, and that

17 exposure is extremely, extremely important to us. So

18 we need to maximize the sign for customer

19 identification.

20 Also, Gander Mountain has established

21 its new identity.

22 Let me see If I can put this up and

23 tell you a little bit about that.

24 I have elevations of each side, but



1 these -- this new storefront has been developed. We

2 did two of them in Minnesota with the Gander Mountain

3 being eight feet by forty-one And then this goose is

4 in most -- in many communities that we've -- it's

5 part of our design element and part of our branding,

6 call it the logo if you will. Some communities treat

7 it as part of the sign, others have treated it as

8 part of the storefront design.

9 These are elevations of each of the

10 four walls -- or each of three walls that we're

11 asking to put signs on.

12 Let me just take them one by one. The

13 first sign that we're requesting a variance for is

14 the primary identification sign on the east side of

15 the wall. We are requesting a sign that is eight

16 feet by forty-one feet, or 328 square feet.

17 I took the liberty of going on your

18 website and reviewing some old meeting notes, and on

19 August 5th, 1997, the Zoning Board of Appeals granted

20 Kmart a variance to increase their sign from 356.25

21 square feet to 362.9 square feet. And that increase

22 was the result of increasing the height of the K from

23 seven feet six inches to ten feet.

24 Another note I made when I was looking



1 through your website -- which is very convenient by

2 the way -- on July 17th, 2001, the zoning board

3 approved a sign for Great Indoors which is 407 square

4 feet.

5 Again, this is our primary sign, and

6 it's our main concern to have that exposure to Novi

7 Road, to establish our identity.

8 We at least initially will have some

9 challenges relating to being -- to overcoming being

10 referred to as it's over at the old Kmart, so we

11 really want to get that identity out there as quickly

12 as possible.

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Can I interrupt here

14 one second?

15 MR. BARRETT: Sure.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I just want to let you

17 know that we have reviewed your packet, so we have

18 all these measurements and everything. It's not

19 really necessary to go over each one in terms of the

20 dimensions because we have those, and I take it this

21 month they are correct, as you so stated, and we've

22 been out to the site and looked at it.

23 So if there's anything additional that

24 you would like to add because, you know, we do have



1 nine here and we'd like to-

2 THE WITNESS: (Interposing) There is

3 something additional. I was here last week -- last

4 month and had the benefit of that. I just made kind

5 of a comparison with Galyan's, and I'd like to note

6 that Galyan's also requested a 407 square foot sign

7 on their east side, and at the request of the Zoning

8 Board of Appeals they reduced that to a hundred and

9 thirty-three square feet, and using the same logic

10 that I attempted to use on the east side, we would

11 be -- rather than a five foot sign, we've changed our

12 application to reduce it to a like amount to 90

13 square feet, or a three by thirty sign.

14 And because that easterly sign is so

15 important to us-

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) I'm

17 sorry. Which sign was that now?

18 Which exhibit are you talking about?

19 THE WITNESS: I'm talking about sign

20 number EG-3, I believe. EG-3, which is five by

21 thirty-two, or a hundred and sixty-one square feet.

22 We would propose to reduce that to ninety square

23 feet, or three by thirty approximately, which is

24 proportionate to what the Zoning Board of Appeals



1 asked the Great Indoors to reduce their easterly sign

2 for their secondary identification sign.

3 In addition to that, I'd like to point

4 out that since we were here last we took -- we

5 initially applied for ATV service on the back of the

6 building. We've taken service off that and now it's

7 only -- it says ATV, and that's for the benefit of

8 our customers who buy ATVs from us and need to have

9 them serviced.

10 And as to the sign on the west of the

11 building facing Great Indoors, we're prepared to

12 forego that sign, again, because we really want to

13 focus on the Novi Road and West Oaks Road exposure.

14 Those are the only differences from the

15 information you have before you I believe.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone

17 in the audience that wishes to address the board in

18 regards to this matter?

19 (No response.)

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

21 were 11 notices sent; no approvals, no objections.

22 Building Department?

23 MR. SAVEN: Just to recap, it's my

24 understanding that sign E is no longer before us?



1 MR. BARRETT: Sign which?

2 MR. SAVEN: Sign -- exhibit EG-5.

3 MR. BARRETT: That's no longer before

4 you.

5 MR. SAVEN: Thank you. And the issue

6 with sign D would be that it's only to read ATV, not

7 ATV service?

8 THE WITNESS: Correct.

9 MR. SAVEN: And what is that square

10 footage, sir?

11 MR. BARRETT: I think it's ten square

12 foot.

13 MR. SAVEN: It was mentioned that it

14 was ATV service, and now, as it's written, it's ATV.

15 I was wondering if the ten foot was still a factor.

16 MR. BARRETT: The ten is just the ATV.

17 MR. SAVEN: And sign C, you're looking

18 for a three by thirty foot sign, which is ninety

19 square foot, which would give you a fifteen square

20 foot variance; is that correct?

21 MR. BARRETT: Correct.

22 MR. SAVEN: Okay.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you. Board

24 members? Member Brennan.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, we've got a lot

2 of talking to do. Last month when you were here we

3 did give you some guidance, and I didn't see a lot of

4 movement with the exception of a couple things noted

5 tonight.

6 For the record, we do not take into

7 affect -- we do not take into consideration other

8 cases, other sign cases, so I'm going to not regard

9 any of your comments about other cases.

10 Secondly, the main sign on the east

11 wall is large, sure. You want to be able to see it

12 from Novi Road. You can see it from Farmington

13 Hills.

14 It's interesting that it was pointed

15 out all of the other new businesses in West Oaks.

16 Recognize them all. They're all in front of the ZBA

17 for various variances. This seems to be pretty

18 common.

19 I got problems all the way down, and

20 I'll just leave it at that.

21 Typically, on multiple signs, we'll

22 start with one and get some input and work our way

23 through, but I've got some issues with this case.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray.



1 MEMBER GRAY: I also have issues with

2 this case. I'm glad to see that you have scaled down

3 the sign on the north and that you're withdrawing the

4 request for the sign on the rear.

5 I think the sign on the front, the east

6 facade, is -- at least the part that says Gander

7 Mountain, is way too big.

8 I don't have a problem with the logo on

9 either of the signs, and I don't have any problem

10 with the ATV sign in the back.

11 I just think the Gander Mountain sign

12 is too big.

13 This will also be a destination place.

14 People will be finding out where you are, and you

15 will be able to see it from Novi Road if it's

16 smaller, and I would certainly encourage you to

17 reduce the size of Gander Mountain, or at least the

18 gander.

19 Thank you.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.

21 Member Reinke.

22 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I think I'm

23 echoing the comments made by previous board members.

24 I think until we get down to (inaudible) and start



1 dealing with each individual sign and look at it from

2 a realistic point from there as to what we're going

3 to do, because we're all making comments about this.

4 There are certain sections we have

5 problems with that we need to address and deal with.

6 MR. BARRETT: We're prepared to do

7 that.

8 MEMBER REINKE: So what -- Madam

9 Chairman, wherever you want to start.

10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Thank you,

11 Member Reinke. I like we should start with the first

12 sign.

13 MR. BARRETT: I'd like to make one

14 comment. I didn't -- Council Member Brennan, I cited

15 former approvals I think because there's a section in

16 your website that encouraged that. I didn't mean it

17 to be inflammatory at all. I recognize this might be

18 an entirely different set of people here, so having

19 said that, let's go on.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: I only bring it up

21 because it has been practice that we do not reference

22 other cases when taking into consideration your case.

23 Your case is special. It's Gander Mountain. It's

24 that building. It has nothing to do with any other



1 building, any other company.

2 MR. BARRETT: Understood.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: We're dealing with

4 Gander Mountain. That's my point. I'm sorry if I'm

5 a little pissy.

6 MEMBER CHAIRWOMAN: All right. Let's

7 go with the first sign. You -- obviously 328 feet.

8 You've heard the board members here. Personally, I

9 liked last month's size better than this month's

10 size, and I don't have that -- I'm sure I do.

11 MR. BARRETT: The mockups are the

12 difference in the size primarily. I think the

13 applications are very similar.

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Wasn't that like a

15 hundred square feet less, if memory serves me

16 correct?

17 MEMBER GRAY: It was 11 square feet

18 less.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The one that was on

20 there was 11 square feet less?

21 MEMBER GRAY: It was 299. This one is

22 288.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Last month the sign-

24 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) They had



1 the wrong size --

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: They had the wrong

3 size sign up there. What size was that sign last

4 month?

5 MR. BARRETT: I don't know.

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I thought it was 2

7 something.

8 MR. BARRETT: The mistake was made

9 because the architectural band to the sign company

10 that put the mockups, the wrong set of dimensions

11 from a different store, and so I'm not familiar with

12 that.

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So what are you --

14 what is your idea on sign A?

15 MR. BARRETT: Sign A is obviously not

16 acceptable in its present size. I have in front of

17 me a series of different size signs that Gander

18 Mountain has delivered, the smallest of which has

19 letters that are six feet six inches high and

20 33.42 -- I'm sorry. Six feet -- and 33.42 feet long,

21 which is 217 square feet.

22 And even though it is a smallest,

23 what's there -- what is there is eight feet high, so

24 that would be a reduction of one-and-a-half feet in



1 height.


3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) 17.

4 MEMBER REINKE: You said that was how

5 many square feet?

6 MR. BARRETT: I'm sorry. It's six foot

7 six inches by 33.42 inches.

8 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's going to end up a

9 little more than 217.

10 MEMBER REINKE: I can live with that.

11 It's dropping it down in height of a foot-and-a-half,

12 which is, to me, falling in a realistic -- they have

13 somewhat of a disadvantage where they sit, but not to

14 the point where they need an eight-foot high letter

15 sign. Six-and-a-half is not intrusive but yet it's

16 big enough to draw identification, because that's

17 what they want the sign to do, and it would do an

18 adequate job of it.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw four nods.

20 Shall we go on?

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes, let's go on.

22 Let's go to sign B. That's Exhibit EG-2, east

23 elevation. Those are your logo signs.

24 MR. BARRETT: Correct.



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And these are

2 78-and-a-half square foot, and you want two of them.

3 MR. BARRETT: Just one on the east

4 elevation.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Just one.

6 MEMBER BRENNAN: One on the front.

7 MR. BARRETT: This being the east

8 elevation and this is what we're talking about.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, I'm sorry.

10 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think Sarah already

11 pointed out she didn't have a problem. I don't have

12 a problem with that.

13 MEMBER GRAY: You have a problem with

14 that? Lavern has a problem with that.

15 MEMBER REINKE: I think we're going

16 to -- going down with six-and-a-half foot letters,

17 now you got a ten foot circle there. I think an

18 eight foot is more than sufficient.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That makes sense.

20 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chair, may I ask a

21 question, please. In regards to this being a logo,

22 will that eight foot satisfy his condition?

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, we're going

24 there.



1 MR. SAVEN: I'm not sure if it is. I

2 don't want him coming back here again because it

3 doesn't work.

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Does the logo, if it

5 would be eight foot in height as opposed to ten feet,

6 would the logo still be the logo?


8 MR. SAVEN: Thank you.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: With that dimensional

10 change, can you tell us what that square footage

11 would be if it's not 78.5 any longer?

12 MEMBER REINKE: It should be 20 percent

13 less than what's there.

14 MR. BARRETT: It's pie R squared, but I

15 don't know what pie is anymore.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Usually we need a

17 lawyer on this board. Tonight we need a

18 mathematician.

19 MR. SCHULTZ: 3.14.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: 3.14. 20 percent is

21 what we're looking at.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I think if we

23 just call that eight foot diameter.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You can work with



1 that?

2 MR. BARRETT: We can work with that.

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Let's go to

4 sign C, which you've already said you would like this

5 reduced -- and this is on the north elevation -- to

6 90 square feet, and that's reduced from 161.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's the second

8 rendering from the top?

9 MR. BARRETT: That is the north

10 elevation.

11 MEMBER REINKE: What is the new height

12 of letters going to be?

13 MR. BARRETT: Three feet.

14 MEMBER REINKE: I can live with that.

15 ATV sign, I have no problem with.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't either.

17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Me either.

18 MEMBER REINKE: Is that a motion, Mr.

19 Brennan?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: And the rest is gone.


22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Guess what? Not

23 painful after all.

24 MEMBER REINKE: If I may suggest, I



1 think we're better off if we do them one at a time.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll do that, if you

3 like. With respect to Case 03-088, Gander Mountain

4 sign cases, sign A, east elevation, approve a motion

5 for a 217 square foot sign.

6 MEMBER REINKE: With a maximum letter

7 height?




11 MR. BARRETT: The dimensions are six

12 feet six inches and --


14 MR. BARRETT: 33.4. It's 401 inches.

15 I was dividing 33 and quarter inches by 12.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: For the purpose of

17 store identification.

18 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So we have a motion

20 and second. Any further discussion? Mr. Saven.

21 MR. SAVEN: I'm really sorry. There's

22 a couple issues that I really want to bring up,

23 because I don't want to be splitting hairs. This is

24 217 point some feet. 218 okay?



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I was going to

2 suggest-

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I already said it's

4 more than 217.

5 MR. SAVEN: But the other issue is that

6 each one of these signs, there is an additional sign

7 along with the variance, so as we go through these

8 things, please make sure we do that additional

9 signage, too, okay.

10 There's only one sign which is allowed

11 on a business, so anything above and beyond that.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm clear with that.

13 Sarah, please call the roll.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

23 zero.




1 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign

2 B, this is the logo on the front, which would be a

3 second sign on this building, the petitioner's

4 request has been reduced to an eight foot diameter

5 sign.

6 MEMBER REINKE: Eight foot high

7 diameter sign.

8 Support.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been made and

10 seconded. Any further discussion on the motion?

11 (No further discussion.)

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

13 would you please call the roll.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

23 nothing.

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign



1 C, petitioner has reduced his sign to a 90 square

2 foot, seeking a variance of 50 feet.

3 MEMBER REINKE: Maximum letter height,

4 three foot.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Three foot letter

6 height. This is an additional sign on the north

7 wall.

8 MEMBER REINKE: Right. Support.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So we have a motion

10 and a second. Any further discussions?

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes, further

12 discussion. I just want, for the record, while

13 the -- while the east elevation is the primary entry,

14 there is considerable traffic on that northern road,

15 and that's kind of justification for the

16 identification on the north. I'll just add that to

17 the --

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So it's been moved,

19 seconded and amended. Any further discussion?

20 (No further discussion.)

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the

22 roll.

23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?




1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

8 nothing.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to sign

10 D, which is the ATV -- wasn't it the first time

11 around, didn't it say ATV Service?

12 MR. BARRETT: Was ATV Service. It will

13 just say ATV now.

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's ten square

15 feet?

16 MR. BARRETT: Correct.

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Move that this sign be

18 approve for purpose of identification of a secondary

19 business.

20 MEMBER REINKE: Also a second sign.

21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Also the fourth sign

22 -- no, third sign.

23 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been made and



1 supported. Any further discussion?

2 (No further discussion.)

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

4 would you please call the roll.

5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

14 nothing.

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sir, your variances

16 have been granted, be that as it may. Please see the

17 building department.

18 MR. BARRETT: Thank you very much. We

19 appreciate your cooperation and willingness to hear

20 me.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good luck to you.

22 The board's going to entertain a motion

23 to take a seven minute break, if no one seems to

24 oppose. We'll be back in seven minutes.



1 (A short recess was taken.)

2 CASE NUMBER 03-090

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'd like to call the

4 Zoning Board of Appeals meeting back to order, and we

5 will start with -- or we will resume with Case Number

6 03-090 filed by David Boyer -- is Mr. Boyer here --

7 at 1191 West Lake Drive. Mr. Boyer is requesting a

8 6.5 foot rear yard setback variance for the

9 construction of an addition to his home.

10 Are you Mr. Boyer?

11 MR. BOYD: No, I'm not. I'm Joe Boyd.

12 I'm representing Dave Boyer, who's here.

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Are you an attorney?

14 MR. BOYD: No. I'm a builder. I'm the

15 one that's going to be performing the addition.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Would you raise your

17 right hand and be sworn. Do you swear or affirm that

18 everything you're going to tell us will be the truth?

19 MR. BOYD: Yes.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, go ahead.

21 MR. BOYD: We're here to get a variance

22 of 6.5 feet basically on the south side of this home.

23 You can see, there's 42 square foot on

24 each side of this home. It's -- the original home



1 was built with an odd shape. It doesn't allow any

2 use. We're going to add on both corners. It's only

3 the one corner that has a variance issue.

4 That's all.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's it? Okay,

6 thank you.

7 Is there anyone in the audience that

8 wishes to address the board with regard to this case?

9 (No response.)

10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

11 were sixteen notices sent; three approvals, no

12 objections.

13 Building Department?

14 MR. SAVEN: I believe they're just

15 trying to square off the house a little bit. In

16 doing so, they're going (inaudible) a rear yard

17 setback. It is at an angle. But, anyhow, that's

18 basically what they're doing. They're not

19 increasing -- going beyond the building in itself.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Board members?

21 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman, echoing

22 what Mr. Saven alluded to, it's basically squaring

23 the building off. It is only intruding into the

24 setback on the one corner of the property because of



1 the angle of the lake at that point. I see no

2 problem with the request as presented, and no

3 opposition from the neighbors.

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Member Gray.

5 MEMBER GRAY: I would like point out

6 that most of us who live in that area consider the

7 lake to be the front yard, and it's still no

8 intrusion, so I'd like to make a motion, unless

9 anybody else has some comments to get on record at

10 this time, in the matter of Case 03-090 filed by

11 David Boyer, move to approve the variance requested

12 due to the unique lot size and configuration and the

13 proximity to the water.

14 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: There's been a motion

16 and a second. Is there any further discussion on the

17 motion?

18 (No further discussion.)

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

20 would you please call the roll.

21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?




1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


3 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


5 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

6 nothing.

7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.

8 MR. BOYD: Thank you.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.


11 CASE NUMBER 03-091

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Next case is 03-091

13 filed by Planet Neon representing Hagopian World of

14 Rugs at 43223 Twelve Mile Road. They're requesting

15 one sign variance to erect a luminated wall sign to

16 be located on Twelve Mile Road for Hagopian World of

17 Rugs.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Good evening.

19 MR. HAGOPIAN: Good evening. My name

20 is Edgar Hagopian representing Hagopian World of

21 Rugs.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Would you raise your

23 right a hand and be sworn, please. Do you swear or

24 affirm that everything you're going to tell us is the



1 truth?

2 MR. HAGOPIAN: Yes, I do. I come

3 before this board because we're experiencing some

4 unique hardships. I think my son wrote a letter to

5 the board last month -- I have to -- and expressed

6 our problems quite correctly.

7 Fortunately, we've been at this

8 location for some four-and-a-half years, and we

9 occupied the lower level of the showroom, and at that

10 time we had requested some special variances on the

11 sign because we needed exposure both to Twelve Mile

12 Road and to the mall, and were granted those waivers.

13 However, subsequent to that, we leased

14 the lower level to a furniture showroom to a

15 furniture showroom, Boshe Bobua (ph), and at that

16 time we removed the Hagopian sign facing the mall,

17 and since then people have assumed that we have gone

18 out of business or changed our location.

19 In the last two weeks, my son gathered

20 a hundred and five names on a petition testifying to

21 that affect, that affect rather, and I have those

22 signatures and names and addresses of people that

23 have experienced difficulty in finding our showroom

24 or -- and these are essentially the people that have



1 ultimately found us. Those that have assumed that we

2 weren't there anymore just -- we don't know what

3 quantity of people passed us up.

4 Unfortunately, during all this period,

5 we went through the hardship of

6 Twelve Mile construction, and we're the only retailer

7 on Twelve Mile Road during that construction period

8 that had Twelve Mile access that suffered from that,

9 even with some signing. We were unable to get

10 access. It was extremely difficult.

11 We were originally granted three signs,

12 and we would like to request a sign, as we submitted

13 to the board, for a sign facing the mall as

14 represented.

15 And when one looks at the sign -- or

16 one looks at the building from that direction,

17 basically there's no other sign that would be

18 visible, no other Hagopian sign that would be

19 visible, from the mall respectfully.

20 I think, you know, we've gone through

21 some tremendous hardships in that location.

22 Unfortunately, not all of them concerning, you

23 know -- some of them were temporary.

24 Last year was a tough year from an



1 economic standpoint for retailers. I don't have to

2 tell you that. Last year was a tough year with

3 Twelve Mile construction. I don't have to tell you

4 that. And then further complicated was the fact that

5 we had no mall exposure, it became a extremely tough

6 year.

7 So we're asking you to -- I understand

8 that those other two problems are going to disappear

9 and -- fortunately, and we're left with the one which

10 is still an ongoing problem, and we're asking for

11 your very careful consideration of our request.

12 UNIDENTIFIED: My name is (inaudible).

13 I'm with Planet Neon. I'm relatively new to the

14 area. I was asked to come out and take a look at

15 this location.

16 And, I, myself had difficulty locating

17 it, and I did come up to the mall Ring Road access

18 area. And I would like to see, you know, the board

19 approve the sign that they have requested here

20 tonight.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone

22 in the audience that wishes to make comment in

23 regards to this case?

24 (No response.)



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

2 were eight notices sent; and one approval from Hotel

3 Baronet, and there are a hundred and ten -- pretty

4 close to a hundred and ten signatures. And just for

5 the board's information, it says: Dear Hagopian

6 customer, Hagopian World of Rugs is going before the

7 City of Novi to request additional signage. We would

8 appreciate your signature support, our efforts for

9 additional signage if you've experienced difficulty

10 finding our showroom, thought we've moved or closed,

11 any other inconvenience finding us. And there are

12 close to a hundred and ten. So I will verify that

13 for the record.

14 Building Department?

15 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out that

16 there are two entrances to that building, one being

17 Ring Road and also Twelve Mile Road, and the

18 building, it has unusual elevations as it's basically

19 like a walkout type of scenario, and access can be

20 off the Ring Road as well as Twelve.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members? It's

22 only you on this side. What can I say.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I think this is

24 one of the first times that I've been moved from a



1 very strong opinion, because when I made that Ring

2 Road trip it didn't seem to me that you could see

3 this proposed sign very well. You're making a the

4 lot of turns on a windy road, and you've only got

5 just a brief second to see that up there.

6 However, I am moved by the evidence

7 that there are customers, and I applaud you for

8 making that effort to demonstrate that you have had

9 customers that have had a difficult time.

10 MR. HAGOPIAN: This is a two-week

11 period by the way.

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: So I guess I'm

13 persuaded that maybe some signage is on there. If

14 they're looking for you, and they only need to see

15 Hagopian, could you live without the bottom runner?

16 MR. HAGOPIAN: The bottom what?

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: The bottom run, World

18 of Rugs. It's just a business identification sign,

19 if we could reduce the overall size, leave the

20 Hagopian at thirty inches by sixteen foot six inches.

21 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's our logo. You

22 know, I don't --

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: But you're looking for

24 your store identification, and it's just something



1 I'm throwing out there just as a thought.

2 You know, we -- I understand you have a

3 need. You've demonstrated the need. I'm trying to

4 discuss whether we can have a minimal variance

5 request by still giving you what you want.

6 We minimize the variance request --

7 hold on a second -- and that is something that we're

8 pledged and obligated to do as board members, is to

9 minimize variances. When we decide or consider that

10 we're going to grant one, we try to make it as least

11 a variance request.

12 That's my comments.

13 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's not the question,

14 is there?

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anybody else?

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: At this point it's

17 board member comments.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke.

19 MEMBER REINKE: I started out

20 negatively in my -- as Mr. Brennan had alluded to.

21 I'm somewhat persuaded by the presentation, but I

22 agree wholeheartedly with Mr. Brennan, that it is a

23 business identification and there doesn't need to be

24 an advertising sign, so I think the word Hagopian



1 would be sufficient to direct people to your store.


3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I had another note

4 that I had written, just for the sake -- it is -- if

5 somebody was looking Hagopian up in the

6 Yellow Pages and had never been there, the address

7 says Grand River -- or, pardon me, the address says

8 Twelve Mile. It doesn't say anything about being in

9 West Oaks, come in through Ring Road of find us on

10 Ring Road, so the destination is Grand River, and

11 they have a tough identification on Grand River --

12 Twelve Mile.

13 MEMBER GRAY: As opposed to the mall.

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: But I am moved -- like

15 I said, I am moved that, perhaps, there is a need

16 here. I just wondered whether it could be minimized.

17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I -- am tongue tied

18 tonight. I will make a couple of comments. Driving

19 through there it is very difficult. I concur with

20 Member Brennan in terms of coming through the back,

21 with this corner, plus the construction on Twelve

22 Mile, I'm sure it didn't help. When you drive by

23 it's hard to get in. Coming up Novi Road you

24 think -- and you're approaching Twelve Mile, you



1 think you can turn in and you can't, so it's a

2 confusing entrance to say the least, and I don't know

3 that that does not contribute to the poor turnout of

4 clients so to speak.

5 I'm torn. I understand that Hagopian

6 is, you know, the World of Rugs, but I tend to think

7 that if people are looking for you, and as long as

8 they can identify your building and get focused,

9 especially for where the sign is going to be, I tend

10 to agree that less is better, and if there was

11 something we could do with the size -- but not so

12 much the letters, because you really can't read it

13 from coming back there.

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think the letters

15 have to be like they are.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: In order to do any

17 good.

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: Although you only see

19 it going one way, not the other way.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's such a difficult

21 corner. Okay.

22 Mr. Hagopian, what do you have to --

23 you had some comments while the board members were

24 talking.



1 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, yeah. Obviously,

2 you know, it's our name. It's like saying Edgar

3 instead of Edgar Hagopian. I know a lot of people

4 know me by Edgar. It's an unusual name. A lot of

5 people in the theatrical business have one name, and

6 Madonna is an example.

7 Hagopian is known, you know. We're

8 established, 60 some years in this community, but we

9 have a cleaning company. My brother's a competitor.

10 He's a cleaner.

11 I don't know what to say. I mean, it's

12 our logo. We've never used our name without our

13 logo, so you're asking me to make a judgement as to

14 whether or not I can live without it. I don't know

15 the answer to that question.

16 If you're giving me the option of a

17 smaller sign with the bottom tag or a larger sign

18 without it -- is that the option you're giving me?

19 I don't know.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. It wasn't my

21 option. The third option was to leave the Hagopian

22 as it is. I think you can pick that up. If you're

23 looking up there and you got to look up, up in that

24 upper left-hand corner, you're making -- navigating



1 this road like this, but if you think that that's

2 going to help people identify -- finding your store

3 or coming to see you anyways, they know what Hagopian

4 is. They're shopping for rugs. I don't think you

5 need that lower rung.

6 That was my point. I think you heard

7 three other people say the same thing.

8 MR. HAGOPIAN: Well, I heard them. I'm

9 not going to sit here and argue with you people. You

10 know your business, I know my business.

11 I just -- if Sears Roebuck still

12 retained the name Roebuck, would you ask them to drop

13 that just because Sears would identify the store just

14 as well as Sears Roebuck? I don't know the answer to

15 that question.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think they did drop

17 Roebuck.

18 MR. HAGOPIAN: They did because they're

19 no longer part of the name.

20 I can't answer that question honestly.

21 All I can say is there isn't a single

22 document that exists in our company without the name

23 Hagopian World of Rugs on it.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Why don't you take a



1 moment then at this point. You seem to be not clear

2 on this, and I don't want to push something that

3 you're not going to be happy with or vote against

4 this.

5 MR. HAGOPIAN: It's not what we asked

6 for.

7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Right. Well-

8 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) And to be

9 honest -- to be perfectly honest, I'm here

10 representing my son who was supposed to be here and,

11 unfortunately, was unable to.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, and that was why

13 -- what I was leading to.

14 I don't have -- I could suggest this to

15 you, it would have to be your call, if you would like

16 table this to next month.

17 MR. HAGOPIAN: I'd prefer not to.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You prefer not to

19 table it?

20 MR. HAGOPIAN: No. This is a hardship

21 for us. I'd prefer not to table it because, to be

22 honest, this is a hardship for us, and it is one that

23 even surprised us, because when my son removed the

24 Hagopian sign he assumed that people, you know,



1 would -- you know, we put signs on the doors and

2 people would make that judgement, but apparently they

3 haven't.

4 And I'm not there every day, he is.

5 But -- and these hundred and five signatures he

6 obtained in two-weeks time. He decided that he'd ask

7 his customers, you know, what kind of difficulty, and

8 he was amazed himself at the problems.

9 So we attributed the drop in business

10 to road construction and the economy and, you know,

11 it's really a factor of several things, to be honest,

12 and this signage problem is a serious problem for us.

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And I think that you

14 -- I'm sorry. Excuse me one second. I think you did

15 properly identify what your problem is, and you did

16 indicate to the board clearly what the need is.

17 However, my other suggestion would be

18 because you have the sign person with you this

19 evening, perhaps what we could do is take a few

20 minutes and relook at the sign and see if there's

21 another option, knowing that this board is looking at

22 a smaller sign possibly, either being with Hagopian

23 and dropping the World of Rugs, or Hagopian World of

24 Rugs in a smaller-



1 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) Well, I

2 asked if that's the option you're giving me. There's

3 no contest, because I think I'd rather have the

4 larger Hagopian, if that's the kind --

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: No. I'm -- the only

6 thing I'm suggesting is that you take a minute, think

7 about this, we can move onto another case, the two of

8 you can talk this through and then you can come back

9 after the next case, unless you just want us to go

10 with it, or you're ready to accept Hagopian.

11 MR. HAGOPIAN: The question is are you

12 giving me this option of, in other words, a smaller

13 sign that says Hagopian World of Rugs-

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: (Interposing) Yes.

15 MR. HAGOPIAN: -or the size of the sign

16 as submitted just saying Hagopian?

17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's correct.

18 MR. HAGOPIAN: That's the option you're

19 giving me?

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Well, those are my two

21 suggestions at this point, that you two-

22 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) You're

23 telling me you won't pass the plan as presented; is

24 that what you're saying?



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: That's correct.

2 MEMBER GRAY: It was my understanding

3 that Mr. Brennan's comment, and the way I understood

4 it, the way I would support it is, the size Hagopian

5 stays the same, it does not increase by deleting

6 World of Rugs. Is that what your intent was,

7 Mr. Brennan?

8 MEMBER BRENNAN: My suggestion was

9 leaving Hagopian as it's shown on the mockup but

10 eliminating the World of Rugs.

11 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. What I'm

12 understanding Mr. Hagopian is he going to get the 45

13 inches in Hagopian?

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: No. It would be a 48

15 square foot sign.

16 MEMBER GRAY: And I want to make that

17 clear, that no, the option is not going to make

18 Hagopian larger but to leave it the same size but

19 without World of Rugs?

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I think he understood

21 it.

22 MR. HAGOPIAN: I understand that.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: No, he understood.

24 MR. HAGOPIAN: If that's my options, I



1 don't -- it's really -- I don't have to think about

2 it. I'd rather have the larger Hagopian.

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You would rather go

4 with just the one word, Hagopian, and leave off-

5 MR. HAGOPIAN: (Interposing) Yeah.


7 MR. HAGOPIAN: I mean, that's the

8 choice you're giving me. I assume I have to make a

9 choice between those two options, so --

10 MEMBER REINKE: Is that your motion,

11 Mr. Brennan?

12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah. I'll make a

13 motion that the Case 03-091, the petitioner's request

14 for a sign on the mall side be approved, modified as

15 such that Hagopian will be 30-inch letters in tall,

16 sixteen feet by six inches in width, and World of

17 Rugs will be eliminated from the script.

18 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

19 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: The motion's been made

20 and seconded. Is there any further discussion?

21 (No further discussion.)

22 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

23 would you please call the roll.

24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?




2 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


4 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


8 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

9 zero.

10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Thank you.

11 MR. HAGOPIAN: Thank you.


13 CASE NUMBER 03-092

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Moving right

15 along to Case Number 03-092 filed by Mozart Homes of

16 Brookhaven subdivision. Paul Hedemark of Mozart

17 Homes is requesting one sign variance to erect an

18 entranceway sign to be located at the front entrance

19 of Brookhaven subdivision. This project is located

20 on the north side of Ten Mile and east of Novi Road.

21 And are you Mr. Hedemark?

22 MR. HEDEMARK: I am Paul Hedemark.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Could you please raise

24 your right hand and be sworn in by our secretary.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm

2 that the information you're going to give us will be

3 the truth?


5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thank you.

6 MR. HEDEMARK: As explained in the

7 agenda, we are requesting a variance for one sign for

8 subdivision identification.

9 The one -- the ordinance allows one

10 sign to be placed at the outside -- permanent sign

11 placed at the outside of the subdivision that can be

12 up to twenty-four square feet in size.

13 We have a brick monument on both sides

14 of the entryway, and we would like to put one small

15 sign on each side to identify the subdivision, which

16 would be -- the two signs combined would total three

17 square feet.

18 So that is what, one-eighth of the size

19 of the allowance by the ordinance.

20 One of the two signs has already been

21 approved, so we need a variance to put the other

22 small sign up, and all the other requirements would

23 meet height and placement of the sign.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is there anyone in the



1 audience that wishes to address the board in regards

2 to this case?

3 (No response.)

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

5 were seventy-three notices sent; one approval, two

6 letters returned. David Leone (ph) that lives at

7 24548 Parkridge Court approved.

8 Building Department?

9 MR. SAVEN: This is an entryway sign.

10 There's normally two entryway walls that are

11 associated with entryways. I think they're just

12 trying to put two signs, one on each side, for

13 identification purposes.

14 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

15 MR. SAVEN: I didn't mean it to be.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke, was

17 that a motion?


19 MEMBER GRAY: I'll support it, whatever

20 it was.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Can we do it that

22 quickly?


24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay, cool. So we



1 have a motion and a second. Is there any further

2 discussion on the motion?

3 (No further discussion.)

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

5 would you please call the roll.

6 MS. MARCHIONI: Sorry. Can you restate

7 the motion?

8 MR. SAVEN: Oh, no you don't.

9 MEMBER REINKE: Additional entryway

10 subdivision identification sign. Normally we have

11 two identifications. The angle of it precludes

12 identification going in the opposite direction of the

13 sign, and the signage size is minimal.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

23 nothing.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been



1 granted. Please see the building department.




5 CASE NUMBER 03-094

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moving right along,

7 we're going to Case 03-094 filed by

8 Carmen Matthews at 1367 East Lake Drive, is

9 requesting a hundred and thirty square foot variance

10 for the construction of a l80 square foot detached

11 accessory structure to be located at the residence on

12 East Lake Drive.

13 Are you Carmen?

14 MS. MATTHEWS: I'm Carmen Matthews.

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Raise your right hand.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you want to raise

17 your right hand, please. Do you swear or affirm that

18 everything you're going to tell us is the truth?

19 MS. MATTHEWS: I do.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Go ahead.

21 MS. MATTHEWS: Well, my husband and I

22 applied for this shed that we need to build in the

23 backyard. The house that we purchased has no

24 basement, so there is a need of storage. There is an



1 attached garage to the house, but we have three

2 vehicles, and we don't know how to switch them around

3 to fit in the garage. And there is a need for the

4 lawn mower for -- it's a lake lot, and the

5 properties -- there is a lot of patio furniture and

6 other things that need to be stored for the winter,

7 and it's a great need of storage.

8 So we would like to purchase a kit

9 that's already ready to put together. And it's going

10 to be a good looking shed.

11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Is there anyone

12 in the audience that wishes to make any comment in

13 regards to this case?

14 (No response.)

15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, there

16 were forty-one notices sent; no approvals, no

17 objections, and two letters were returned.

18 MS. MATTHEWS: And I have a letter from

19 the association.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Could you bring

21 that up. I stand corrected, and the homeowner's

22 association letter of approval. Thank you.

23 Building Department?

24 MR. SAVEN: Yeah. I had a couple



1 inquiries with regards to the shed, and it was

2 unclear to them as to what they were attempting to

3 do. I guess they thought you were going to put up

4 another 850 square foot, but after I showed them what

5 was happening-

6 MS. MATTHEWS: (Interposing) It's a

7 ten by eighteen.

8 MR. SAVEN: Right. I did show them

9 what you were proposing, and they appeared not to

10 have a problem with this.

11 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members? Member

12 Gray.

13 MEMBER GRAY: How far from the property

14 line are you going to put the shed?

15 MS. MATTHEWS: We will put it as far as

16 the building department will approve. From what we

17 understood, was six feet from the property line.

18 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. That's what I was

19 trying to get at. I was trying to make sure that you

20 would have adequate room around it to maintain it.

21 MS. MATTHEWS: Yes. The lot -- the

22 property allows that.

23 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. I don't have any

24 problem with it. That's a motion.



1 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is that a motion?


3 MEMBER GRAY: Move in the case --

4 matter of Case 03-094, move to approve the variance

5 requested due to need for storage on this lot.

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's been moved and

7 approved. Any further discussion?

8 (No further discussion.)

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, would you

10 please call the roll.

11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


19 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

20 nothing.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been

22 granted. Please see the building department.

23 MS. MATTHEWS: Thank you very much.




1 CASE NUMBER 03-095

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-095

3 by -- filed by Michael Camerella at 204 Faywood.

4 Mr. Camerella is requesting a side yard setback

5 variance of 6.18 feet for the construction of an

6 addition to an existing home.

7 Are you he?

8 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, I am.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you raise your

10 right hand and please be sworn in by our secretary.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm

12 that everything you're going to tell us is the truth?

13 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, I do. I'm

14 requesting a side yard setback variance of 6.18 feet

15 on the west side of my property for the construction

16 of a bathroom to square off the back side of my

17 house.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Is there anyone in the

19 audience that wishes to address the board? Is that a

20 yes? Okay. You need to come down, please.

21 MS. JOHNSON: My name is Theresa

22 Johnson. I'm representing my aunt, Gensie Reynolds.

23 She lives at 208 Faywood, which is right next door.

24 She's lived in her house for 30 years.



1 In June of 2000 the board approved a variance for the

2 house directly to the west of her at 214 Faywood.

3 This caused their house to be remodeled inches away

4 from the property line. Currently there is 15 feet

5 between her house and the one to the west, just

6 enough for her driveway.

7 There is seven feet ten inches between

8 her house and the one directly to the east, the one

9 asking for the variance. Approximately halfway

10 between that is the property line.

11 We believe that if the variance was

12 lessened it would make the houses seem too close

13 together. Her view from her back door would be a

14 house instead of a nice green lawn.

15 The neighbor at 204 Faywood has two

16 lots. The house is on one lot and the lawn is on the

17 other. He could easily build on the other side of

18 his house and not make anyone feel uncomfortable.

19 Not to mention that the last time this

20 neighbor remodeled, he kept my aunt up until 3:00

21 a.m. several nights a week over several weeks playing

22 his music loudly and hammering most of the night.

23 She has health problems that are

24 worsened by stress, and I hope this council takes all



1 of this into consideration when making its decision.

2 We hope you make a decision not to approve the

3 variance.

4 And I do have photos. This photo is

5 the west side of her house. It shows that the

6 remodel that was approved in June of 2000 is to the

7 left of the picture. It shows that the house is

8 built inches away from the property line. Part of

9 the fence was taken down so that they could do the

10 foundation. They had to take the fence down to do

11 the foundation.

12 This is the other side of her house,

13 which is my aunt's house and 204 Faywood. It shows

14 that there is a fence halfway between the two houses.

15 This would be a back view showing that

16 the fence does go directly between them.

17 This is her view of her back door, and

18 if you look to the air, you will see that there are

19 several lines that will have to be moved. Power

20 lines, cable lines and phone lines will all have to

21 be put on a pole and moved over there.

22 This also shows 204 Faywood, showing

23 that they do have an extra lot and they could build

24 on the other side of their house without any problem.



1 And this shows where they're wanting to

2 extend their house from, that small room.

3 That's it.

4 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Anyone else?

5 (No response.)

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: There were forty-seven

7 notices sent; one approval, one objection. The

8 objection was from John Wright at 207 Rexton. House

9 doesn't look good right next to the property line. I

10 think the ordinance should stand.

11 Building Department?

12 MR. SAVEN: Only that they're

13 continuing the line on the side of the house and in

14 conjunction with the addition. It's not encroaching

15 into that existing setback requirement.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Board members?

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'd ask -- I'd like to

18 ask Michael's thoughts of what was just presented.

19 MR. CAMERELLA: I -- the existing

20 bathroom is what we're going to do, is extend and

21 square the house off. As you see, it's a shed

22 bathroom back there, so it was put on before I ever

23 owned the home. We're not going to be doing anything

24 different than just putting a new tub in, a toilet,



1 and square the back of the house off so we can have a

2 little more room back there.

3 And as for any inconsideration for some

4 remodeling I did to dress the house up, painting and

5 other issues, if there was ever a problem, I

6 apologize to my neighbors for that. It's the first

7 I've ever heard of it, and that would be in

8 consideration, if I do any remodeling, which I've

9 spoken with my neighbor and explained to her that it

10 will be going on in the wintertime and there's

11 minimum times I can work at, and construction will be

12 done during the week and won't exceed past the

13 evening or anything that would keep her up.


15 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Gray.

16 MEMBER GRAY: How big is the addition

17 you're proposing?

18 MR. CAMERELLA: It is 12 by 24.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: So that little piece

20 that's sticking out right now, that comes off?

21 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, that will be

22 removed. New foundation, house will be squared, same

23 roof line, no bumpouts on the sides.

24 MEMBER GRAY: Is it all going to be a



1 bathroom or is there going to be something else, part

2 of a bathroom and part-

3 MR. CAMERELLA: (Interposing) Yes. It

4 will be part bathroom, and it will be a breezeway

5 with closets on both sides of the door as you enter

6 the back door, which will extend out of the back of

7 the house for additional storage.

8 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. And I realize what

9 you're doing is just following the same property

10 line, but is there any possible way you could jog

11 that over to the side away from your neighbor?

12 And I'm asking a lot, but I'm asking.

13 MR. CAMERELLA: In consideration with

14 the roof lines and making everything work and look

15 presentable, I think, my opinion, personally, that

16 keep the body lines of the house the same all the way

17 down would be in the best interest and would result

18 in no inside corners or roof offsets.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: Sarah, wouldn't that

20 also mess up the driveway and the garage?

21 MEMBER GRAY: Well -- and I'm looking

22 at that, but I'm trying to find some alternative that

23 would help appease the neighbor, understanding that

24 it would just go straight back.



1 That sticks out how far now?

2 MR. CAMERELLA: It's approximately

3 nine-and-a-half feet.

4 MEMBER GRAY: Nine-and-a-half feet. I

5 realize it's only going to go back another two,

6 two-and-a-half feet.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yeah, two-and-a-half

8 feet.

9 MEMBER GRAY: It's not going to block

10 too much of the view, but --

11 MEMBER REINKE: What was the reason for

12 the second objection?

13 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: House doesn't look

14 good right next to the property line.

15 MEMBER REINKE: Thank you.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair?


18 MEMBER BRENNAN: We've been pretty

19 consistent with additions in a situation like this.

20 I'm troubled that you've got some trouble or problems

21 with the neighbor, and I trust Mr. Camerella will do

22 a better job of this renovation.

23 I'm not compelled to buy into the case

24 that the view of the backyard is going to be



1 obstructed when we're looking at about another

2 two-and-a-half feet verse what's already there.

3 So my -- I guess I'm compelled to

4 support the petitioner.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I'm following the same

6 way. I almost think it's going to be an improvement.

7 It's going to improve the back of the house.

8 You've sat here all night and listened

9 to us talk to neighbors and to petitioners, and I

10 urge you that you have an elderly neighbor next door

11 to you, that you go and talk to her and sincerely

12 honor those hours and requests. That disturbs me,

13 so -- but if you've got good neighbors it's better

14 than having a great fence.


16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: So, you know -- I'm --

17 in lieu of a senior citizen living next door that has

18 to deal with loud music and hammering at 3:00 in the

19 morning, that upsets me more.

20 On the other side, to the resident,

21 this is going to actually improve the back of the

22 house. It's going to be a better looking look, when

23 you do look out your back door, to look at it, and I

24 agree with Mr. -- Member Brennan, that I don't know



1 that it's going to be that far out protruding. We're

2 talking maybe two feet, two something feet, that it's

3 going to come out where you may not even notice it.

4 It may be an improvement.

5 And I -- so I would support this

6 request based on the lot configuration as well, the

7 location of the house. And also to address the

8 objection letter from the other resident, that it

9 doesn't look good on the property line. This is just

10 following the line of the house.

11 MEMBER GRAY: This is another situation

12 in a very old area of the city where the houses -- a

13 lot of the houses were built without any benefit of

14 permits years and years and years ago.

15 And while I can certainly appreciate

16 your neighbors' concerns, I realize logically that

17 there really isn't much of a choice on this to --

18 other than squaring up the house.

19 But I had to ask the question, and I

20 hope you understand that.

21 MR. CAMERELLA: No problem.

22 MEMBER GRAY: So that having been said,

23 I would move to approve the variance requested as it

24 encroaches no closer to the lot line than is -- what



1 is existing.


3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: It's been moved and

4 approved. Is there any further discussion?

5 Mr. Saven.

6 MR SAVEN: I just want to point out to

7 Michael is the fact that you did have some residents

8 here that were very concerned about the noise level,

9 music and everything else, as a concern, and it was

10 presented to this board. The board also is looking

11 at you to be a little more accommodating to your

12 neighbor.

13 MR. CAMERELLA: I understand.

14 MR. SAVEN: Is that understood?

15 MR. CAMERELLA: Yes, sir.

16 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Motion's been moved

17 and approved. Any further discussion?

18 MR. SCHULTZ: Just one more comment

19 along the lines, if I may, Madam Chair. The City

20 does, obviously, have a noise ordinance that sets

21 decibel limits. We don't have anything that prevents

22 construction of a residential home at the time that's

23 convenient for the homeowner, but it does include the

24 music, and it needs to be appropriate and not a



1 nuisance.

2 So if he needs help with finding out

3 what the rules are, we'll be happy to talk about

4 them.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You heard that in the

6 back? You're okay?

7 MS. JOHNSON: She doesn't, you know,

8 want to cause more stress for herself, so she didn't

9 say anything.

10 MEMBER GRAY: It shouldn't be a problem

11 from here on out.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Sarah, please call the

13 roll.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to

23 nothing.

24 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Your variance



1 has been granted.

2 MR. CAMERELLA: Thank you.

3 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And we hope that you

4 make friends with your neighbors.

5 MR. CAMERELLA: All right. Thank you.


7 CASE NUMBER 03-096

8 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Case Number 03-096 by

9 Kerns Brothers, Inc., representing homeowners at

10 24580 Queens Pointe Drive. They're requesting three

11 side yard setback variances for the construction of a

12 covered porch addition to an existing home located at

13 the above address in Meadowbrook Glens subdivision.

14 And so -- you are?

15 MR. HOLM (ph): Gary Holm with Kern

16 Brothers.

17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you like to

18 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our

19 secretary?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you swear or affirm

21 that everything you'll tell us will be the truth?

22 MR. HOLM: Yes.

23 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Go ahead.

24 MR. HOLM: Well, we just propose to --



1 I don't know if the board received photos of the

2 project. We're going to extend the porch. It's

3 basically a slab on the ground to the right of the

4 house, to the edge of house, and extend the shed roof

5 overhang to match to the existing edge of the

6 structure is what we propose to do.

7 We also have the homeowner's

8 association signatures, if you need a copy of that.

9 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Yes. Thank you. Are

10 you all set?

11 MR. HOLM: Yeah.

12 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. There were

13 forty-six notices sent, and without the homeowner's

14 association letter there is one objection, and this

15 is at -- the address is

16 24575 Kings Pointe. Basically they state that it's a

17 blatant disregard for the existing zoning minimums.

18 The variances requested is not in the best interest

19 of the neighborhood. If all of the homeowners were

20 to request such a variance, their homes would be on

21 top of each other. The homeowners on both sides of

22 this house were to request a equal variance, it would

23 be possible to have houses only 14 feet away from

24 each other. There's also the possibility that if



1 this addition would be allowed as requested, that in

2 the future the porch would be screened in or changed

3 to provide year-round living space, then this

4 homeowner, or future homeowners, would be then adding

5 another deck or patio to further extend their living

6 space. We are longterm home -- making to their

7 homes. We also enjoy any updates made to our

8 neighborhood. Builder does not understand how

9 important our neighborhood is to each one of us just

10 going for the maximum.

11 This homeowner's association letter is

12 signed by -- has five signatures, all on Queens

13 Pointe.

14 So I'm confused and would like that

15 clarified, and I will in a minute.

16 Building Department?

17 MR. SAVEN: Okay. This is very

18 unusual. Meadowbrook Glens was developed with the

19 criteria of eight foot setback requirements, okay.

20 Are you following me so far? This is how this was --

21 this is how this whole development -- there are eight

22 foot setback requirements between the house and the

23 property line.

24 Because of the issue, once again, of



1 the grandfathering requirements, we have something

2 which is existing and now we're trying to bring it

3 into focus.

4 And, unfortunately, even by virtue of

5 the eight foot requirement being at one time

6 approved, we're still dealing with the setbacks as

7 they exist now for that zoning district, and that's

8 why the numerous setbacks are before you.

9 This is an enclosure. This is a porch

10 with a roof over it, which would have the same

11 setback requirement.

12 The garage that extends in front of the

13 porch meets the requirements of the front yard

14 setback, so all they're doing is just bringing it out

15 to the existing side yard of the existing home and

16 just enlarging the porch area?

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Why do we have the

18 second variance request on the north side? There's

19 nothing going on over there.

20 MR. SAVEN: It's because you have the

21 sum total of the side yards.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's already

23 there.

24 MR. SAVEN: Understood, but you have



1 the sum total of the side yards are to be 25 feet,

2 okay. One's got to be ten, one's got to be fifteen.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I guess it's a moot

4 point.

5 MR. SAVEN: Yeah.

6 MR. HOLM: Is that where the property

7 line is supposed to be, or the adjacent-

8 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) To the

9 property line.

10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: I will clarify this

11 homeowner's association letter. It says that it's

12 signed by the board members and that the process

13 requires that all the neighbors directly adjacent to

14 the property be given an opportunity to review this

15 site plan and to sign off the plan -- sign off on the

16 plan if they approved the project, and that's why the

17 five address are on Queens Pointe.

18 So with that clarification, board

19 members?

20 MEMBER REINKE: I have a question.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Reinke.

22 MEMBER REINKE: It's directed to Mr.

23 Saven, just for clarification point. You said this

24 subdivision was built with eight foot side yard



1 setback.

2 MR. SAVEN: That's correct.

3 MEMBER REINKE: Then why does it go

4 back to ten if that was allowed?

5 MR. SAVEN: Why didn't it go back to

6 ten?

7 MEMBER REINKE: Why does it go back to

8 ten?

9 MR. SCHULTZ: The ordinance changed.

10 MR. SAVEN: The ordinance changed.

11 MEMBER REINKE: If this was approved

12 building with eight foot side yards, the ordinance

13 shouldn't preclude what was allowed.

14 MR. SAVEN: We have a lot of

15 nonconforming issues out there -- I mean legal

16 nonconforming issues in accordance with the ordinance

17 as it exists right now. What we're trying to do is

18 bring this in line with what the ordinance dictates

19 tonight, what we're under.

20 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Member Brennan.

21 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't see any real

22 big deal. It's an extension of an existing lot line.

23 It's meant to be a porch. If somebody wants to

24 change it, they'll be back in front of us.



1 I think we saw enough nodding. I'll

2 make a motion.


4 MEMBER BRENNAN: With regard to Case

5 03-096, I would move for approval of the variances as

6 submitted. These are extensions of the existing

7 lines, and this is an approval for a nonenclosed

8 porch with a roof over it.


10 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. Motion's been

11 made and approved. Any further discussion on the

12 motion?

13 (No further discussion.)

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Seeing none, Sarah, would

15 you please call the roll.

16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


24 MS. MARCHIONI: Motion passes four to



1 zero.

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Your variance has been

3 granted. Please see the building department.

4 MR. HOLM: Thank you.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. That concludes

6 our evening of fun and cases, and now we have -- we

7 can move to other matters.

8 You want to go first?

9 MR. SAVEN: I've asked to have an

10 opportunity to speak to you regarding one of the

11 previous cases that was ZBA 03-050 and has to do with

12 2450 Shawood. It was the one which was presented by

13 John Kurkanian, and he had -- he came before the

14 board because he wanted to put a second story on his

15 building, and at one time he also came before the

16 board to redo his porch because his porch was failing

17 and he didn't receive -- he had to go to the city

18 council, he had to go to Construction Board of

19 Appeals, I believe to us.

20 He's been through the proper process.

21 What happened is that John came before us, and I

22 think he requested an extension. We gave him that

23 extension, and he ran into problems, if you could

24 recall, with his contractor.



1 Well, he got burnt again, and this time

2 his contractor went bankrupt. The gentleman did not

3 supply any plans, he did not -- to our department.

4 John wrote it into his agreement

5 basically that he must comply with all the City of

6 Novi building department requirements. He wanted to

7 get paid for the job, and he didn't pay him and they

8 just abandoned the job, or something happened. He --

9 they're no longer working with them.

10 I have no building permit for this job.

11 We're pursuing the matter with the State of Michigan

12 right now against the builder, but during the

13 interim, as you're well aware, when we get involved

14 in extensions and granting extensions we have to

15 grant an extension because if he doesn't have a

16 building permit it lapses and basically expires,

17 okay.

18 I'm concerned about the legal problem

19 that he's in right now, and I am just requesting the

20 board, maybe even on his behalf, is that we grant an

21 extension, or a continued extension, until this

22 litigation issue has been resolved so he can move

23 forward.

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Can we put a time



1 limit on it?

2 MR. SAVEN: I don't know. Is this

3 proper for me to make that request, or-

4 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) When

5 does his time frame lapse or otherwise -- the last

6 extension we gave him, when does that expire?

7 MS. MARCHIONI: We gave him an

8 extension on September 9th for 90 days.

9 MEMBER REINKE: So that's going to-

10 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) December

11 9th.

12 MR. SAVEN: I really don't feel that

13 he's going to be out of that woodwork for a little

14 while.

15 MEMBER REINKE: I would like -- I have

16 no problem extending it. Since this is not going to

17 expire before our next meeting, I would like you to

18 come back to us and say you need this kind of

19 extension.

20 MR. SAVEN: You want him back here?

21 MEMBER REINKE: Well, yeah. I want

22 some direction from somebody saying I need 90 days, I

23 need a hundred and eighty days, I need a year,

24 because I think that -- we're at a point now that we



1 should give him an extension, but we should have some

2 kind of input on how long of an extension do we need

3 so we're not -- give him a 90-day extension, he comes

4 back in three months I need another 90 days because

5 90 days wasn't long enough, something.

6 I mean, it might not be a hundred

7 percent right, but I think it would give us some kind

8 of direction, which I think we need to have.

9 MR. SAVEN: And I thank you for giving

10 me that direction.

11 This was very unfortunate because he

12 was -- him and his girlfriend were so concerned about

13 making sure things were done right. He went to the

14 Expo Center, got ahold of Glen (inaudible), the House

15 Doctor. He recommended this contractor and this

16 contractor didn't do him well, and that was a sad

17 thing. But that's neither here or there.

18 I will go back to him and I will tell

19 them at the end of this period he does have to come

20 back to the board with a little more direction for-

21 MEMBER REINKE: (Interposing) He could

22 come into the first part of next month's meeting

23 under audience participation and request what he

24 needs and take care of it real quick right then and



1 there.

2 MEMBER GRAY: If he needs six months?

3 MR. SAVEN: Like I said, he's a little

4 nervous about it and I told him I would present this

5 to the board tonight.

6 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Mr. Schultz.

7 MR. SCHULTZ: If I may, Madam Chair, I

8 think the board has, at least on a few occasions,

9 extended these somewhat informally. If you're

10 talking about potentially a significant extension, it

11 would be my preference that it be an item on the

12 agenda so we can get the notice out there and not

13 have to argue about it later with somebody.

14 MEMBER REINKE: Just to cover it, why

15 don't we put it as an item on the agenda right now

16 next month.

17 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: First item.

18 MEMBER REINKE: We've got and it's

19 advertised and the whole thing right there.

20 MR. SCHULTZ: Okay.

21 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: And in light of the

22 current economic situation, I'm sure this is not the

23 only homeowner that's going through this, so this way

24 we have some sort of pattern.



1 MR. SAVEN: Okay.

2 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: All set?

3 MR. SAVEN: Yep. Thank you very much.

4 I appreciate it.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: You're welcome. So

6 comes to my topic. New members for the Zoning Board

7 of Appeals. I don't know if we're treating them bad

8 and they're leaving us, jumping ship. It's all you

9 guys. They're all going to city council, so -- you

10 know, I heard rumors that Vern's going to go on a

11 road show and start entertaining and doing Comedy

12 Castle.

13 I would -- all kidding aside, because

14 today was a pretty hairy day, I would like someone to

15 alert council that we have an immediate problem here

16 and take it very seriously and get it on the agenda

17 as soon as possible. I did contact city -- the city

18 clerk and found that there are actually members -- or

19 residents that have applied and they had names, had

20 been interviewed by council, and once we lost our

21 alternate they were never contacted or they were

22 never moved forward to be reconsidered for the

23 position here.

24 I was advised by the clerk's office



1 that they weren't going to do anything until January.

2 Grant it, this is November, but if they don't start

3 petitioning until January we could be in a whole heap

4 of problems here.

5 MEMBER REINKE: May I make a

6 suggestion?

7 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Certainly.

8 MEMBER REINKE: If you have the time

9 for Monday's council meeting, I would be willing to

10 attend to support that we make a presentation to the

11 council briefly in audience participation that we are

12 in dire need, we need their help, we need it now, not

13 in January.

14 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Would you all like to

15 join me?

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: If you plan on coming

17 Monday, I'd come.

18 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Okay. How about

19 Monday night, we'll all come and do the first

20 audience participation.

21 All right. That sounds like a plan

22 to -- I mean, and if you hear of anyone that's

23 looking for -- please encourage them. We definitely

24 need to do something.



1 If there's isn't any further business

2 for the ZBA, I call for a motion to adjourn this

3 meeting.

4 MEMBER GRAY: So moved.

5 MS. CHAIRWOMAN: Moved and supported,

6 and I hereby adjourn the meeting.

7 Thank you.

8 (The meeting was adjourned at

9 9:42 p.m.)

10 - - -


















1 C E R T I F I C A T E.


3 I, Cheryl L. James, do hereby

4 certify that I have recorded stenographically the

5 proceedings had and testimony taken in the

6 above-entitled matter at the time and place hereinbefore

7 set forth, and I do further certify that the foregoing

8 transcript, consisting of one hundred and twenty-three

9 (123) typewritten pages, is a true and correct transcript

10 of my said stenograph notes to the

11 best of my ability.


13 -------------------------

Cheryl L. James, CSR-5786


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