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TUESDAY, AUGUST 12, 2003 -- 7:30 P.M.

Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, August 12, 2003.

Cynthia Gronachan, chairman
Jerald Bauer
Frank Brennan
Robert Gatt
Sarah Gray
Laverne Reinke

Don Saven, Building Department
Sarah Marchioni, Building Department
Thomas Schultz, City Attorney

Cheryl L. James, Certified Shorthand Reporter

1 MS. CHAIRMAN: If everyone's here,

2 we'll start the August 2003 Zoning Board of

3 Appeals meeting.

4 Sarah, would you please call the

5 roll.

6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?

7 MEMBER BAUER: Present.

8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?

13 MEMBER GRAY: Present.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: And Member Reed I

19 have absent excused.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: The Zoning Board of

21 Appeals is a hearing board empowered by the Novi

22 City Charter to hear appeals seeking variances

23 from the applications of the Novi zoning

24 ordinances.



1 It takes a vote of at least four

2 members to approve a variance request and a vote

3 of the majority of the members present to deny a

4 variance. Tonight we have a full board.

5 Also on our agenda this evening

6 you'll notice in the beginning for the members in

7 the audience that there's rules of conduct. We

8 ask that you review those before approaching the

9 board, especially the new rule of all cell phones

10 and pagers to be turned off during the meeting.

11 Agendas, any changes?

12 MS. MARCHIONI: Well, you all

13 received the July 8th minutes yesterday, so it's

14 at your discretion if you would like to approve

15 those tonight or not. If not, we can remove

16 them.

17 And also, under other matters,

18 Member Gronachan, you wanted to discuss the

19 conferences.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.

21 Conferences, and I would like to add the training

22 date as well.


24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Anything



1 else?

2 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chairperson?


4 MR. SAVEN: At this time I would

5 like to introduce Lisa McDonald who will be

6 taking over our young Sarah's place. Sarah will

7 be moving onto greener pastures but within my

8 department. I'm very happy to announce that Lisa

9 will do a fine job for us.

10 At this time, Lisa McDonald,

11 members of the board.

12 MEMBER BAUER: Welcome aboard.

13 MS. McDONALD: Thank you.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Welcome. We are

15 certainly going to miss Sarah. She's been a

16 vital part of this board, and especially -- I

17 haven't been chair for very long, but I've worked

18 with her, and I know her as well because I see

19 her at my office all the time, so I'm really

20 going to miss you and I wish you the best. I'm

21 sure the board has the same wishes for you.

22 Lisa, we welcome you.

23 MS. McDONALD: Thank you.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Minutes. Is



1 it the board's pleasure to approve June and July

2 minutes?

3 Has everyone had time to review the

4 July minutes?

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion

6 for approval.

7 MEMBER GATT: Second.

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. It's been

9 moved and seconded for the minutes. All those in

10 favor?

11 (Vote taken.)

12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?

13 (Vote taken.)

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Therefore, the

15 minutes have been approved.

16 Public remarks. Is there anyone in

17 the audience this evening that wishes to make any

18 comments on cases that are not before us or in

19 regards to any subjects not before the board this

20 evening?

21 (No response.)

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we will

23 go ahead and call our first case.




1 CASE NUMBER 03-062

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Case Number 03-062,

3 filed by Donald Jordan of 45216 Courtview Trail.

4 Mr. Jordan is seeking a request for a ten-inch

5 rear yard variance, construction of a new

6 addition.

7 Mr. Jordan?

8 MR. JORDAN: Good evening.

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening. Would

10 you like to raise your right hand and be sworn in

11 by our secretary?

12 MR. JORDAN: Yes.

13 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

14 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding

15 Case 03-062?

16 MR. JORDAN: Yes, I do.

17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.

18 MR. JORDAN: I'm sure you've

19 received the packet that I've submitted to the

20 zoning board, so I would just add to it a couple

21 of highlighted points.

22 One is the house has an existing

23 deck now that has been removed, and the current

24 sunroom that we plan to add onto the house is



1 actually a Four Seasons sunroom, and it will

2 extend less than the existing deck, so it will be

3 less of an obstruction to my neighbors.

4 Additionally, I'm in a little bit

5 of an odd situation that I've already signed the

6 contract with the company that's erecting it, so

7 I'm -- it's a little bit odd because I've

8 actually paid already for the larger sunroom.

9 They said that it would be within the setback.

10 It turns out that it exceeds the setback by about

11 ten inches.

12 And the last point I would like to

13 highlight is the reduced size of the sunroom,

14 because they come in set increments, would kind

15 of yield a tunnel affect in the house, or -- and

16 really defeat the purpose of the sunroom. So

17 with this we feel that we get the full value of

18 our contract, it increases the value of our house

19 and increases the value of the neighborhood.

20 And several homes in the

21 neighborhood had have been putting money into

22 their homes, so I think it meets with the

23 existing development planned in the neighborhood.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anything



1 else?

2 MR. JORDAN: Not unless the board

3 has any questions.

4 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is

5 there anyone in the audience here to speak on

6 this case this evening?

7 (No response.)

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none,

9 building department?

10 MR. SAVEN: Just a couple issues I

11 would bring to the board's attention. It's not

12 located anywhere within the 12 feet easement at

13 the rear of the property. As the applicant

14 indicated, there was a wood deck in that

15 location, and it's on a plot plan that's being

16 submitted in your packet. I think it's less than

17 projecting whatever that distance was of that

18 wood deck.

19 I do have one comment, should the

20 board decide to approve this deck, there is some

21 concerns that I have as far as columns go for the

22 peers of -- the supporting peers for your -- for

23 that part of the existing deck. Make sure that

24 whoever is going to engineer this for you does it



1 properly, because sometimes the poles or pillars

2 are insufficient on existing decks that are not

3 capable of supporting the load for the sunroom.

4 MR. JORDAN: We've gone and took

5 the extra step of making sure that those will be

6 removed entirely and put in new pillars for that

7 very reason.

8 MR. SAVEN: Okay.

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. There

10 were 32 notices sent; no approvals, no

11 objections.

12 I will note, too, for the board's

13 information, that the association approval is in

14 the packet however.

15 Board members? Member Brennan.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, this seems

17 like a reasonable request, it's not a big deal.

18 I tend to look at this as a quick checkup, and up

19 and down the board, and if we get a lot of nods

20 we can just move on, unless there's somebody

21 who's got some major objection.

22 MEMBER GATT: I just have one

23 question for Mr. Jordan. The company you signed

24 your deal with and already paid to, how did they



1 miscalculate?

2 MR. JORDAN: I believe what they

3 miscalculated is there -- they thought that the

4 chimney that extends beyond the house was within

5 the -- I believe the entire width of the sunroom

6 is about twelve-and-a-half feet, and when you

7 take a look at the chimney, it visually looks

8 like it's within that, but when you actually run

9 the measurements it exceeds that. I think it

10 might be because of the slope of the land.

11 MEMBER GATT: There's a slope.

12 MR. JORDAN: Yes.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.

14 Any other board members comments?

15 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a

16 motion.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Member

18 Brennan.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to

20 Case 03-062, I would move that petitioner's

21 request for a variance be approved due to lot

22 configuration and it is a minimal intrusion.

23 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and



1 a second. Any further discussion on the motion?

2 (No further discussion.)

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

4 could you please call the roll.

5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Sir, your variance

18 has been approved. Please see the building

19 department.

20 MR. JORDAN: Thank you.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.






1 CASE NUMBER 03-063

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's start with our

3 next case, Case Number 03-063, filed by

4 Donald Waldenmayer of 24078 Glen Ridge Court.

5 Mr. Waldenmayer here?


7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening.

8 MR. WALDENMAYER: Good evening.

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to

10 raise your right hand, please, and be sworn in by

11 our secretary.

12 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

13 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

14 03-063?


16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.

17 MR. WALDENMAYER: Well, I'm looking

18 for a variance for my plans for my backyard, the

19 family room and the small office.

20 I took the -- I had an architect do

21 up the design work for me, and I asked him to

22 design something that was very attractive, that

23 would fit in with the neighborhood, that would

24 not look like an addition, that would add value



1 not only to my house and my property but my

2 neighbors.

3 I've been a Novi resident all my

4 life and graduated from Novi in 1974, and we're

5 very happy living there. My son goes to

6 Village Oaks, which is in walking distance from

7 my house.

8 The reason we wanted the addition

9 rather than the -- just get -- move out and get a

10 bigger house was we like the neighborhood and we

11 like -- my son likes the school and he doesn't

12 want to change, and we felt that the design

13 itself was nice and very attractive, and we

14 thought that perhaps the City would allow the

15 variance just based on, you know -- rather than

16 going back to the drawing board, to the architect

17 and saying take 13 inches off this, which would

18 take away from the size. It's really not that

19 big of an addition.

20 We would ask the zoning commission

21 (inaudible) to go ahead with the plan as it is.

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.

23 Is there anyone in the audience that wishes to

24 make comments in regards to this case?



1 (No response.)

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, I'll do

3 it right this time. There were 48 notices sent;

4 two approvals. First approval was by

5 Donald Taylor at 24029 Ripple Creek; second

6 approval is by Rochelle Greenberg at

7 24031 Glen Ridge.

8 Building department?

9 MR. SAVEN: Just point out, once

10 again, that the projection of the addition is not

11 going into the eight-foot easement and towards

12 the rear yard -- excuse me, six-foot easement

13 towards the rear of the yard and that this is a

14 corner lot.

15 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

16 Member Brennan.

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, this one was

18 three inches deeper into the setback. I have the

19 same similar comments. I don't have any

20 objections with this. I think this is a

21 reasonable request, and if there's nobody that

22 has objections or questions, I'll go ahead and

23 make a motion.

24 MEMBER GATT: I just have one



1 question. How many kids do you have? I saw the

2 kids toys in your backyard.

3 MR. WALDENMAYER: Well, two now. I

4 had one before we decided the addition. I had

5 the other one. That's what made the decision to

6 make the addition.

7 MEMBER GATT: Well, I think you

8 have a beautiful house and a beautiful addition

9 planned.

10 MR. WALDENMAYER: Thank you, sir.

11 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chairman, I would

12 like to ask one more thing. Regarding the

13 removing of the existing trees, I do want you to

14 touch base with our City forestry regarding this

15 situation.


17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?

18 (No further comments.)

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion

20 with respect to Case 03-063, that petitioner's

21 request be approved based on lot configuration

22 and a minimal intrusion into the setback.

23 MEMBER GATT: Second.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's been a



1 motion and a second. Any further discussion on

2 the motion?

3 (No further discussion.)

4 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

5 would you please call the roll.

6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. CHAIRMAN: You're all set,

19 Mr. Waldenmayer. Your variance has been

20 approved. Please see the building department,

21 and as Mr. Saven has suggested, the forestry as

22 well.

23 MR. WALDENMAYER: Thank you.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.



1 CASE NUMBER 03-064

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Next case that we're

3 going to call down is 03-064 filed by

4 Josephine Jackson, 61 Pleasant Cove.

5 Miss Jackson is requesting a six-foot side yard

6 setback variance for the construction of a new

7 home.

8 MR. SUTTON: Good evening, board.

9 My names is James Sutton, and I'm speaking on

10 behalf of Mrs. Jackson. I'm actually going to be

11 the builder.

12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sutton, excuse

13 me, could you please raise your hand and be sworn

14 in by our secretary then?

15 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

16 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

17 03-064?

18 MR. SUTTON: Yes, I do.

19 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Go

20 ahead.

21 MR. SUTTON: We basically designed

22 the house based on the size of the lot, and then

23 once we had the surveyor come out and lay it out,

24 we found the power lines don't go along the



1 property line like they typically do because they

2 were put in a long time ago.

3 This is a really, really old

4 subdivision, and they literally cut 25 feet into

5 the side of the property. I actually have a

6 little bit of an image here. I don't know if you

7 can put the thing up.

8 This is the proposed house right

9 here, and this dotted line represents the power

10 line going through.

11 And we designed the house to be

12 handicapped, and we -- basically it's a ranch.

13 We reduced and reduced and reduced.

14 I don't know if you have the floor

15 plan there. If not, I can show it to you.

16 But we've reduced it the best we

17 could.

18 I can show you that, too.

19 And to maintain, you know, the

20 proper widths of the hallways and the rooms to

21 get around, it's just -- we really can't squeeze

22 it anymore, so we're requesting the six-foot

23 variance to keep it away from the power lines and

24 to keep within the proper, I guess, distances for



1 the wheelchair to be able to move around.

2 And the other thing that I'd like

3 to point out that's on this zoning map here is

4 that probably 90 percent of the subdivision is

5 zoned R-4 where you typically only need a

6 ten-foot side yard setback, and because of just

7 like, again, old subdivision, we're right here,

8 which is R-1. It's a 15 foot minimum side yard,

9 whereas 90 percent of the sub is only ten.

10 So that's why we're, you know,

11 hoping that it's not such a big deal to ask for a

12 six-foot variance to get away from the power

13 lines and to accommodate the handicap floor plan.

14 And that's it, unless you have any

15 questions for me.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is

17 there anyone in the audience that wishes to make

18 comment in regards to this case?

19 (No response.)

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there

21 were 18 notices sent; two approvals. First

22 approval is by Scott and Laura Quillen of

23 100 Pleasant Cove Drive, and William Maynes of

24 2450 Old Novi Road.



1 Building department?

2 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out, in

3 the note that I sent to everyone, which --

4 basically, I did get in touch with Detroit Edison

5 regarding the distance from the power line. They

6 recommend at least a ten-foot clearance distance

7 from the power line to the home. So where the

8 location of the power line is really causes no

9 problem.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

11 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman, I

12 would like to point out that I fall within the

13 notice distance from the property. Due to the

14 nature, I don't think there's a conflict on it,

15 but I will serve at the board's pleasure.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Member

17 Reinke. Members?

18 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I would appreciate

20 Laverne's input.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have a question.


24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you know



1 whether the house to the west is one of your

2 approvals?

3 MR. SUTTON: It's actually the son

4 of Mrs. Jackson, so he approves. I think so.

5 MEMBER GRAY: You also may want to

6 know that young Mr. Jackson also has the radiator

7 shop to the east, and they own the property to

8 the south, so -- my initial response to this was

9 the lot's deep enough you could probably push it

10 back, but since they're surrounded by themselves,

11 you know, and it's going to be handicap

12 accessible, I really don't have a problem with

13 this. The property is deep enough.

14 And although it is not in the shell

15 of the Walled Lake Heights subdivision, it should

16 stand on its own merits, and I think it does.

17 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem

18 with it.

19 MEMBER REINKE: I think there's

20 adequate distance in the side yards between the

21 homes and between that and the radiator repair

22 shop that you're not really encroaching onto a

23 lot that may be owned by somebody else down the

24 road, so you're not really jamming one thing on



1 top of another.

2 And it wouldn't -- if it wouldn't

3 be for the power line, they wouldn't have the

4 problem that's there, so I really don't have a

5 problem with what they're requesting to do.

6 And with that I approve.

7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anybody else?

8 MEMBER BAUER: Fifty-four feet to

9 the house, and he's at least thirty-five, forty

10 feet to the garage. I can't see any problem at

11 all.

12 MS. CHAIRMAN: I concur with my

13 fellow board members as well. And I don't see it

14 -- especially when you're working with the

15 handicap requirements with the widths and that

16 sort of thing, the house has to be a certain

17 size.

18 MR. SUTTON: Yeah. I mean, we

19 tried six different floor plans and it's still-

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: (Interposing)

21 Right. It's very difficult. It takes a lot of

22 creativity, and I think that you've exhibited

23 that in this plan.

24 Is there a motion on the table



1 somewhere?

2 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, in the

3 matter of Case 03-064, move to approve the

4 variance requested due to the fact that the -- if

5 the power line wasn't there we would not be

6 discussing this, and that the applicant and/or

7 family owns all the surrounding property.


9 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and

10 a second. Any further discussion on the motion?

11 (No further discussion.)

12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

13 would you please call the roll.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?




2 MS. CHAIRMAN: You have received

3 your variance. Please see the building

4 department.

5 MR. SUTTON: Thank you.


7 CASE NUMBER 03-065

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Case Number

9 03-065 by Terry Brennan, prospective tenant of

10 22497 Heslip Drive. Miss Brennan is requesting a

11 variance to allow a doggy daycare business to be

12 placed in an existing building that is zoned I-1

13 zoning district.

14 Are you Miss Brennan?

15 MS. BRENNAN: Yes, I am.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you please

17 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our

18 secretary.

19 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

20 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

21 03-065?

22 MS. BRENNAN: Yes, I do. My

23 partners and I wish to open a dog grooming and

24 training school which will include outdoor --



1 excuse me, indoor recreation for our customers'

2 dogs.

3 The Planning Commission of Novi has

4 denied us stating that our use is not

5 specifically listed in the I-1 zoning. Although

6 this is the case, Our use is not specifically

7 excluded nor is it listed as not permitted.

8 In fact, the only use listed that's

9 not permitted is the processing of raw material

10 for shipment in bulk form to be used in an

11 industrial operation at another location.

12 As stated in our petition regarding

13 Section 1902, numbers 11, 15 and 16, we fall

14 within principal uses permitted, especially

15 considering the written phrases including but not

16 limited to, and other uses of a similar and no

17 more objectionable character.

18 The cities of Farmington,

19 Farmington Hills, Milford, Commerce, Canton and

20 Livonia currently have these types of businesses

21 without any problems.

22 We want to provide the Novi

23 community these services, ending the need for

24 residents to travel outside the city, which



1 results in lost revenue.

2 In our denial letter from the

3 Planning Commission, it states we can appeal for

4 a special land use for I-2 zoning. The intent

5 for I-2 zoning states that it is primarily for

6 manufacturing, assembling and fabrication on a

7 large-scale basis whose external physical affects

8 will be felt to some degree by surrounding

9 districts.

10 Gone to the Dogs does not

11 manufacture anything, nor will it affect any

12 surrounding districts. We feel the affects of

13 the General industrial district will be

14 detrimental to both our business and our clients.

15 In closing, Section 1900 states the

16 intent of I-1 zoning as intended to encourage

17 innovations and variety and type, design and

18 arrangement of land uses, but at all times to

19 protect neighboring districts from any adverse

20 impact.

21 Clearly, Gone to the Dogs is more

22 suited for I-1 versus I-2 zoning.

23 And as is the case in many cities,

24 light industrial zonings currently have many



1 vacant buildings. We hope to fill one of Novi's

2 vacancies.

3 And we'd just like to thank the

4 Zoning Board of Appeals for their time and

5 consideration.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank

7 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes

8 to make comment in reference to this case?

9 (No response.)

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there

11 were 14 notices sent, and one lengthy objection.

12 The objection is from Larry Morianti, and I

13 apologize, Marble Light Corporation,

14 22500 Heslip Drive. His objection is -- I'll try

15 to highlight this -- he's a trustee and tenant, I

16 object for the following reasons. It is a

17 multi-tenant building with the variance request

18 for a space that is located in between industrial

19 tenants. Daily activities include unloading of

20 tractor trailer trucks, movements of heavy lift

21 trucks, as well as other industrial activities.

22 The occupation of a doggy daycare

23 and pet center in this facility does not conform

24 to current tenant activity. It is inappropriate



1 for this facility.

2 I strongly object to the granting

3 of the zoning variance.

4 Building department?

5 MR. SAVEN: No comment.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

7 MEMBER GATT: I have a question.

8 Do you presently run a doggy daycare center now

9 anywhere?


11 MEMBER GATT: What's your

12 experience? I mean-

13 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) I've

14 groomed dogs for over ten years, I've been

15 training for over 12, various types of different

16 dog experience.

17 MEMBER GATT: Where do you do this?

18 MS. BRENNAN: At the Briarpoint

19 Veterinary Clinic is where I groom. I teach

20 obedience classes at Wolverine training school,

21 and that's in Livonia, Michigan.

22 MEMBER GATT: So you have a long

23 history of working with dogs?




1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brennan?

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: We're not related.

3 MS. BRENNAN: I know.

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I wanted to say

5 that right off the bat.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: I was waiting for

7 that actually.

8 MEMBER BRENNAN: First of all, I

9 was very impressed with the homework you've done.

10 MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: And my general

12 feelings, as I wrote down here, is that given how

13 you've got this designed, this is all within the

14 building. You've got industrial companies on

15 either side of you that are industrial by nature,

16 so I don't know that this business is going to be

17 presenting any kind of particular problem.

18 And the fact that the zoning

19 doesn't specifically address your business, or

20 your type of business, I'm compelled to support

21 your request with continued jurisdiction and

22 following the progress of your business and see

23 how it goes.

24 MS. BRENNAN: Okay.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: We do this on

2 occasion when we're maybe not quite sure but it

3 sounds okay, it feels okay; if it quacks like a

4 duck it's probably a duck.

5 MR. SAVEN: It's a dog in this

6 case.


8 thoughts.

9 MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Thank you.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gray?

11 MEMBER GRAY: Well, I also would be

12 in support of this, but I have a few other

13 questions.

14 And, first of all, can you tell me

15 why we didn't get the Planning Commission

16 minutes?

17 MS. MARCHIONI: There's a

18 clarification. She never actually went to the

19 Planning Commission. She was denied by the staff

20 planners.


22 MS. MARCHIONI: So the request was

23 never in front of Planning Commission.

24 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. The -- one of



1 the other questions I have is, how do you plan to

2 deal with the outdoor activities that are going

3 to be required of these dogs that are being

4 brought in?

5 MS. BRENNAN: The only outdoor

6 activity requirement would be the owner

7 transporting from car to building.

8 If you're talking about waste,

9 we'll patrol yards at least twice daily, be sure

10 that's cleaned up. We will have an indoor potty

11 facility, very similar to the Novi Expo dog show

12 setups. I don't know if you're familiar with

13 that or not.

14 It is in our little petition

15 packet. If you have anymore questions, I can go

16 over that further.

17 We're not encouraging walking,

18 we're not training, we're not doing any

19 activities with the dogs outside the building.

20 MEMBER GRAY: Well, based on a

21 Veterinary Clinic, Vet Select, when that was

22 approved, it was -- they promised that there

23 would be absolutely no outside walking, and that

24 happens constantly.



1 MS. BRENNAN: Sure, sure.

2 MEMBER GRAY: And I know that you

3 really can't control what people do between their

4 car and your building-

5 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure.

6 MEMBER GRAY: -but I would

7 absolutely encourage you to be very strongly

8 regulatory of this because of the objection of

9 your neighbors.

10 MS. BRENNAN: Sure, and we can-

11 MEMBER GRAY: (Interposing) Because

12 in a little bit they're going to pick on you.

13 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. And we can,

14 you know, post a sign in the window and let

15 clients know in their -- upon entering our

16 facility, the application process, we can keep

17 stressing that, you know, when they come in, when

18 they see the door every day, reminders, that type

19 of thing.

20 MEMBER GRAY: But it's also very

21 difficult to control the dogs when they want to

22 do what they want to do.

23 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. That's why we

24 offer training, too, so hopefully we'll help with



1 that.

2 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you.

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gatt?

4 MEMBER GATT: What hours of

5 operation are you going to-

6 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) The

7 facility will be open from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.

8 After 6 p.m., the only -- we'll have up to ten

9 dogs with an owner per dog in our building.

10 So basically the majority of people

11 with their pets dropping off and picking up is

12 done by 6:00.

13 We have a very structured drop off

14 and pick up time for the different activities

15 going on versus the indoor recreation and the

16 grooming.

17 MEMBER GRAY: You going to have

18 Weekend hours, too?

19 MS. BRENNAN: No. We plan to be

20 closed Saturday and Sunday.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: I have some

22 questions for you. Your training is only going

23 to be in the evening?

24 MS. BRENNAN: Correct.



1 MS. CHAIRMAN: And how many hours

2 for the dog training?

3 THE WITNESS: Three hours in the

4 evening, from 6:00 to 9:00 p.m.

5 MS. CHAIRMAN: How large is the

6 class?

7 MS. BRENNAN: Ten dogs maximum per

8 class. We would probably try to run three

9 classes that evening.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: You're looking at a

11 max of 30 dogs in the building-

12 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Not at

13 one time. It would be ten at a time. Ten come

14 in for class-

15 MS. CHAIRMAN: (Interposing) So

16 you wouldn't run these classes concurrent then?

17 THE WITNESS: Right, correct. I'm

18 sorry.

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

20 MS. BRENNAN: So we might have, you

21 know, closing and starting a new class, we might

22 have a little extra, but never at one large -- 30

23 dogs after 6:00 p.m.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: In regards to the



1 eight by four pens that you have there, is that

2 just to hold the dogs while they're there for

3 grooming?

4 You're not going to be doing any

5 boarding, correct?

6 MS. BRENNAN: No, absolutely no

7 boarding. The holding pens are if someone's

8 running behind and we're starting a training

9 class and we have a dog or two left, we can put

10 them safely into this containment area while the

11 trainers and their classes are starting up.

12 If there's a dog that seems to be

13 ill for any reason, we can quickly separate that

14 dog, put him in a holding cell -- pen, excuse me.

15 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's not going to

16 ben any overnight stays?

17 MS. BRENNAN: Absolutely not, no,

18 absolutely not.

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. What's the

20 maximum amount of dogs that you would have there

21 during a normal business day?

22 MS. BRENNAN: Ten maximum for

23 grooming, and I think we put 23 for the daycare,

24 so that would be a maximum of 33 daytime hours.



1 Again, The training we just covered

2 starting at 7:00 p.m.

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right. So the

4 training in the evening.

5 MS. BRENNAN: Right.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: The doggy daycare,

7 or the babysitting so to speak, so about 33 dogs

8 during the day.

9 MS. BRENNAN: Right.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: And then you have a

11 max of ten dogs for grooming.

12 MS. BRENNAN: Right. That was

13 included in that number of 33.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: In the 33, so a

15 total of 33.

16 And there would not be any dogs

17 overnight in the building?

18 MS. BRENNAN: Absolutely not. And

19 just to add, all grooming dogs are crated at all

20 times. It's not part of the play group that we

21 have set up.

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, where

23 I'm going with my questioning on this is that

24 with this objection letter that we have, with



1 this heavy industrial equipment going in and out,

2 and we've got 33 dogs coming in and out, is there

3 going to be a direct route -- I mean, this is

4 going to be a neighbor of yours-

5 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure,

6 sure.

7 MS. CHAIRMAN: -so we do want to

8 address his concerns. Is there -- is there a

9 specific area where you're going to let the

10 person park the car and get the dog out?

11 What happens if a dog gets loose?

12 MS. BRENNAN: You know, that's the

13 control of other people that I don't necessarily

14 have. We strongly recommend leashing at all

15 times, that type of thing.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: You and I both know-

17 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure.

18 MS. CHAIRMAN: -what can happen.

19 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. That's

20 understandable. We're doing temperament testing

21 also, so it's not going to be an aggressive dog

22 at large by any means.

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: No, no. I was more

24 worried of heavy equipment and splat dog.



1 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. The only -- I

2 spoke with a manager over at Marblelight,

3 Mr. Rob Atolla, and we discussed the semi tractor

4 loading and unloading, and he stated it was one

5 truck approximately every two weeks for about an

6 hour.

7 So I'm not aware of this heavy

8 traffic, or was not told.

9 So we had kind of worked out a

10 verbal plan of what to do with the one semi

11 coming in at that time.

12 The building does have a wraparound

13 driveway. If he could back the semi up enough

14 that we could go around it, or go in the other

15 side of the building, come in and drop of again.

16 And we plan to use a parallel

17 parking -- we are the middle building. The

18 parallel parking spot's directly from our door

19 for ease of customers coming in and out with

20 their dogs.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: That does it for my

22 questions. Oh, I do -- I'm sorry. I do have one

23 other question. The dogs that are there for the

24 daycare, is there a specific time that they can



1 be dropped off and then picked up so there's not

2 traffic during the day?

3 MS. BRENNAN: Yes. We have -- drop

4 off hours are between 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. only,

5 and pick up is between 5:00 and 6:00.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: So there's not going

7 to be any traffic throughout the day?

8 MS. BRENNAN: Other than grooming

9 dogs, which starts from 8:00 to 10:00, but from

10 10:00 to 3:00 there should not be any traffic.

11 We have pretty strict drop off/pick up with the

12 number of dogs coming and going. I would like to

13 run it as strictly as we could.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for

15 clarifying that.

16 MS. BRENNAN: Yep, No problem.

17 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman,

18 this is a unique function, and I think you've

19 done an excellent job in laying it out,

20 guidelines and definitions that you've used, and

21 I could see there's a demand for this, but being

22 where the location is, I would want it to appear

23 every year, and at that time we would review and

24 go from there at that point in time, would be my



1 recommendation.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have no problem

3 with that. How we do with something like this

4 when it's a little unsure and we'll call you back

5 and see if there's any problems.

6 MS. BRENNAN: Sure.

7 MEMBER BAUER: The attorney wants

8 to talk.

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schultz?

10 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a couple of

11 quick comments. First is a reminder that this is

12 not the typical variance that's before you. This

13 is actually a use variance. We're not talking

14 about the practical difficulty standards, the

15 unnecessary hardship standard, the higher

16 standards that essentially require the proponent

17 to establish that there is no other use of this

18 property that's permitted, and that in the

19 absence of granting this variance the building

20 will be empty and there's no use that can go on.

21 The other thing that I think the

22 board may want to explore is in the I-1 district,

23 the special land uses section has a catchall. It

24 lists a number of principal permitted uses that



1 wouldn't require the use variance, would require

2 special land use approval from the Planning

3 Commission. And, actually, there's 15 or 16 --

4 15 of them that are listed, and then the

5 catchall, it says other uses of a similar and no

6 more objectionable character than the above uses.

7 The list is on page 3227 of the ordinance.

8 And I guess I just want to make

9 sure that before the board makes a motion that

10 you're aware of sort of the two different ways

11 you can view this: One is, does the proponent

12 meet that pretty high burden for a use variance;

13 or, two, based upon what she's described here,

14 does the board believe that it could possibly fit

15 into the catchall, and if -- and if it did, then

16 the proponent wouldn't be done. It would be a

17 Planning Commission issue. They haven't been to

18 the Planning Commission. Nobody's looked at the

19 layout of the site or anything like that.

20 I just wanted to make sure that the

21 board was familiar with the two ways to look at

22 this.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, clearly,

24 it's not a use variance because something else



1 can go on there, so it's the other, which the

2 applicant has already pointed out.

3 MR. SCHULTZ: She did.

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. And that

5 would be a special-

6 MR. SCHULTZ: (Interposing) What

7 it would be is an interpretation by the board

8 based upon the facts that are presented tonight

9 in her presentation that, in your opinion, she

10 fits -- the proponent fits within the catchall.

11 That would be the only motion you would make

12 if -- and I'm kind of counting heads and seeing

13 where it's going. And then it would fall to the

14 proponent to go back to the Planning Commission

15 and say now okay, the Planning Department was

16 essentially overruled by the Zoning Board of

17 Appeals and now this is before you as a use

18 that's permitted on special land use and here is

19 my case for getting a special land use.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's Planning

21 that issues that.

22 MR. SCHULTZ: Planning Commission

23 would issue that. So that's the other

24 alternative to a use variance.



1 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank

2 you. Board members?

3 MEMBER GRAY: Go for it, Frank.

4 MS. CHAIRMAN: I thought Sarah was

5 going to do it.

6 MR. SCHULTZ: Literally, I think it

7 would simply be a motion that the board

8 interprets Section 1902, catchall provision.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: All right. With

10 respect to Case 03-065, I would move that

11 petitioner's variance request be approved as we

12 find and have determined that it's our impression

13 and our interpretation that she meets the spirit

14 of section 1902.

15 MR. SCHULTZ: Sub section 16.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Subsection 16.

17 And we would like to have continued jurisdiction,

18 we'd like to invite petitioner back in a year and

19 review-

20 MR. SCHULTZ: (Interposing)

21 Wouldn't really be able to do that.

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: The only thing we're

23 doing at this point is a determination -- is an

24 interpretation.



1 MR. SCHULTZ: That would fall to

2 the Commission, if they decided to do that.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. So I said

4 enough.

5 MEMBER GRAY: Second.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: I hate to play

7 devil's advocate here, but I have a question.

8 MR. SCHULTZ: Sure.

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Are we actually

10 approving the use variance.

11 MR. SCHULTZ: No, you're not.

12 MS. CHAIRMAN: We need to change

13 the verbiage.

14 MR. SCHULTZ: If the motion just

15 said the interpretation -- that the board's

16 interpretation is that it falls within the broad

17 exception, section 16 of 1902, that would take

18 care of it.

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Just as long as

20 we're clear on that.

21 MR. SCHULTZ: Sure.

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have

23 a motion-

24 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) Is the



1 applicant aware of what she needs to do?

2 MS. BRENNAN: I think that I'm not

3 getting a use variance. I'm just permitted in

4 the written rules as they stand, or is that not

5 correct?

6 MR. SCHULTZ: Permitted subject to

7 special approval -- special land use approval by

8 the Planning Commission.

9 MR. SAVEN: So you're falling

10 within that I-1 district.

11 MS. BRENNAN: So now I must go to

12 Planning Commission.

13 MR. SAVEN: That's correct.

14 MS. BRENNAN: All right, thank you.

15 MR. SCHULTZ: If it passes.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now we have a

17 motion and a second. Is there any further

18 discussion on the motion?

19 (No further discussion.)

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

21 please, call the roll.

22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?




2 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


4 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Your

11 interpretation has been granted. Please see the

12 Planning Department to go to in front of the

13 Planning Commission.

14 MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.


16 CASE NUMBER 03-066

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Our next case,

18 03-066, filed by Kathleen Boyce at 24576 LeBost.

19 Kathleen is requesting a five-foot rear yard

20 setback and the construction of a screened porch

21 enclosure on the existing deck.

22 Are you Kathleen?

23 MS. BOYCE: I'm Kathleen Boyce, and

24 I do live at 24576 LeBost.



1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Could you raise your

2 right hand for me, please, and be sworn in by our

3 secretary.

4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

5 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding

6 Case 03-066?

7 MS. BOYCE: Yes, sir.

8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Go

9 ahead.

10 MS. BOYCE: I currently purchased a

11 new residence, a home, in Willowbrook Farms. The

12 home came without a constructed porch at the back

13 of the home, which I was aware of. I, however,

14 was not aware of any real restrictions that would

15 apply or be applicable to me in a current city

16 that I'm living in that would restrict or,

17 perhaps, be limited by the irregular shape of my

18 lot.

19 I wanted to construct a porch that

20 was screened and covered, and I had planned to do

21 that at the point in time that I purchased the

22 residence, and I really wasn't advised in any

23 fashion that there would be a restriction or a

24 possible problem, because I do have a very



1 unusually shaped lot.

2 I sit to the back of a cul-de-sac,

3 and a portion of my yard is smaller than -- on

4 the right side of my lot than on the left side of

5 my lot.

6 The proposed porch that I wanted to

7 build does interfere with the current zoning

8 restriction, and it's in violation by

9 approximately five feet. It's -- yeah, five

10 feet. It's a little bit less than that, but

11 about five feet.

12 I was advised that I can construct

13 a porch without it being screened; however, I

14 have a special needs child who really cannot take

15 full advantage of the yard if she has to sit in a

16 direct-sunlight type of situation. She's been

17 sick all of her life, and she currently has a

18 metal plate in her head, and sitting in the head

19 is just -- one, it's unhealthy, but more

20 importantly creates a headache for this child.

21 So I have two needs here. I need

22 to construct a back porch that will allow us to

23 fully use or enjoy our property as we intended,

24 but I also have a health concern in my home.



1 So I'm respectfully requesting a

2 zoning variance so that I can construct a porch

3 that is screened and is covered so we can enjoy

4 our backyard as a family.

5 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank

6 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes

7 to speak on behalf of this case?

8 (No response.)

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there

10 were 28 notices sent; seven approvals. There was

11 a petition sent in with seven signatures. I'm

12 not going to read all the names. They're part of

13 the record.

14 Building department?

15 MR. SAVEN: Only that the applicant

16 is correct, the property is unusual in shape. If

17 you take a look at where the existing deck is, or

18 where that porch area is now, you're looking at

19 more than adequate setback requirement. As you

20 move out to the side of the deck, you'll see it

21 starts to infringe upon the setback requirement.

22 As indicated, once the deck takes

23 on a screened enclosure, it means that it has to

24 follow current regulations (inaudible) with



1 existing structure or building.

2 MEMBER REINKE: It's only the forms

3 that are affected?

4 MR. SAVEN: Basically.

5 MEMBER GATT: Are my eyes bad? Is

6 there a deck there now?

7 MS. BOYCE: No, there is not. It

8 is a new constructed home.

9 MEMBER GATT: I was there a few

10 days ago, and the sheet here says you're building

11 onto an existing deck, and I talked to your

12 landscaper actually, and I just -- I looked at

13 the address 12 times to make sure I was in the

14 right place.

15 MS. BOYCE: Oh, I'm sorry for that.

16 No. I requested a building permit so I can build

17 this all at one time, and I was initially

18 rejected for that building permit and that's what

19 prompted this visit to the Zoning Board.

20 MEMBER GATT: So the way I

21 understand it, your hardship then is that the lot

22 is configured in an odd manner?

23 MS. BOYCE: Correct.

24 MEMBER GATT: Nobody -- I assume



1 you bought the home from Singh?

2 MS. BOYCE: Yes, I did.

3 MEMBER GATT: And they didn't tell

4 you -- did you ask?

5 MS. BOYCE: They did not tell -- I

6 mentioned that I was going to be constructing a

7 enclosed porch. At that point in time nobody

8 indicated to me that there would be any type of a

9 lot restriction.

10 And I -- and the reason I brought

11 up the deck, or the enclosed porch, was because

12 it is such an odd shaped lot.

13 MEMBER GATT: Of course, any

14 municipality would have restrictions.

15 MS. BOYCE: I'm fully aware of

16 that. And I guess I do want to be a good

17 neighbor in Novi. That's not my intention, to be

18 a bad neighbor. That's one of the reasons I went

19 and spoke to every single person who can view my

20 property and requested permission from them,

21 because I do not want to have a neighborly

22 problem in a -- you know, in my new home.

23 MEMBER GATT: I think you have a

24 beautiful home, and your landscaping is just



1 outstanding.

2 MS. BOYCE: Thank you.

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Brennan?

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Just for the

5 record, or for anybody who's watching, we do have

6 approval from the Willowbrook Farms homeowners

7 association as well.

8 We grant variances based on

9 hardships. If there was somebody that's

10 presented a hardship case tonight, I think we

11 just heard it.

12 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair?

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gray.

14 MEMBER GRAY: I think if the lot

15 was a standard lot we wouldn't be having this

16 discussion, and so even if there is a hardship, I

17 think lot configuration prevails, and I would be

18 willing to move that in the matter of Case

19 03-066, that the variance be granted due to the

20 lot configuration and that it would probably

21 encroach no more into the setbacks if it were an

22 open deck.

23 MEMBER REINKE: Support.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and



1 support. Any further discussion on the motion?

2 (No further discussion.)

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

4 would you please call the roll.

5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Miss Boyce, you have

18 your variance.

19 MS. BOYCE: Thank you very much.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Please see the

21 building department.

22 MS. BOYCE: I just go to the

23 building department at this point to get my

24 permit?



1 MS. CHAIRMAN: You can ask for that

2 gentleman right there.

3 MR. SAVEN: It may take a little

4 while to get it, but yes.

5 MS. BOYCE: Thank you very much.


7 CASE NUMBER 03-067

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's go to our

9 next case, 03-067, filed by Teddy Lee of

10 26075 Lanny's Road. Mr. Lee is requesting two

11 variances for the construction of a detached

12 garage.

13 Good evening. Are you Mr. Lee?

14 Would you raise your right hand, please, and be

15 sworn in by our secretary.

16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

17 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

18 03-067?

19 MR. LEE: Yes.

20 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.

21 MR. LEE: Zoning Board of Appeals,

22 I have a need for an additional garage. I have

23 three cars, and two are in the driveway all the

24 time. I have a daughter in her teen years, and



1 we'll have additional car when she's of driveable

2 age, lack of storage space. I have a lawn mower,

3 garden tools, you know, push mower, bicycles,

4 pressure washer. This all goes in the garage.

5 The -- to meet the size of the

6 square footage allowed will only allow me to

7 build a 16 by 15 garage. I have a SUV and a van,

8 and I just need a decent size 24 by 24 garage.

9 It's also nice in wintertime not to have to

10 scrape the ice off the car, sub zero weather,

11 so the need is for the garage.

12 As far as the detached building,

13 there is a playhouse for my daughter. The

14 neighborhood kids, the girls, come play. It's

15 strictly a playhouse. It helps me to keep an eye

16 on her, place for her friends to hang out. Also

17 helps her to create happy childhood memories.

18 That's what this other detached structure is.

19 This 24 by 24 garage has the

20 support and approval of every business on

21 Lanny's Road, as well as the neighbors, and the

22 neighbors behind me. Everyone has signed a

23 petition of approval and strongly support it,

24 tell me to go for it, there's no objection.



1 And this petition has been

2 submitted to the board here.

3 This garage will help me get the

4 car out of the driveway. It will make -- improve

5 the neighborhood appearance.

6 Also, this garage, you can't see it

7 from approach on either side of Lanny's Road

8 because you have a fence on one side, then you

9 have my house on the other side. The only time

10 you can see the garage is you drive by and turn

11 your head for a few minutes to see it as you look

12 up the driveway, so it's really out of sight.

13 So I'm requesting the Board of

14 Appeals to approve this variance -- these two

15 variances.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank

17 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes

18 to make any comment in regards to this case?

19 (No response.)

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there

21 were 20 notices sent, and according to this, 20

22 approvals. There's a four-page petition in the

23 file. Mr. And Mrs. Price were so happy about

24 this they signed it twice. They really want to



1 see it approved.

2 MR. LEE: I have great neighbors,

3 and businesses, too, because I live right on the

4 border of the businesses.

5 MS. CHAIRMAN: Whoever draw this up

6 did a nice job. I have to tell the board members

7 that there is a petition in here for businesses

8 separating from residents and business, and the

9 businesses approve it as well.

10 Building department?

11 MR. SAVEN: Only just to point out

12 that the property is a little bit larger than the

13 normal R-4 zoning district that we deal with.

14 And also that he indicated there is

15 a playhouse there. We deal with that extra

16 structure on a property, we're dealing with

17 something less than 41,000, and this is 20,000

18 square foot property. It's pretty close to that

19 figure.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Board

21 members?

22 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I understand

23 the petitioner's needs and wants. I have a

24 problem with the additional structure because he



1 makes reference in his petition that he needs the

2 garage because his daughter is going to be

3 driving in a few years. Well, it's going to be

4 the point that she's not utilizing the playhouse

5 and we got another structure there, which I have

6 a problem in approving your garage and keeping

7 that structure. That's my point of view.

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: That leads to a

10 good point. Do you want to take that playhouse

11 down for the garage?

12 MR. LEE: Well, the playhouse

13 actually was a doghouse that they converted into

14 a playhouse. It is out of site, and you really

15 can't see it from anywhere.

16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, we're just

17 trying to minimize the extent of variance when we

18 have an opportunity. That's why the question was

19 raised.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: I, unfortunately,

21 support Mr. Reinke's -- Member Reinke's comments

22 as well, and I was going the same way, that if

23 you were interested in removing the playhouse

24 then I was interested in looking at the garage.



1 Less variances are better.

2 This is a -- this is not -- I can't

3 see the need for the playhouse with the garage.

4 And it's because of all of that -- when you look

5 at the overall picture, that's something that I

6 think you heard three members now, you may want

7 to take that into consideration.

8 MR. LEE: Would the board -- when

9 the -- she's 12, and when she's of driveable age,

10 I would take it down, in four or five years.

11 MEMBER REINKE: Might be four or

12 five years before I approve your garage going up.

13 MEMBER BAUER: That's right.

14 MR. LEE: I guess I'm caught in

15 between depriving her of the memories and being

16 somewhere to play and having a garage I guess.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

18 MEMBER BRENNAN: Maybe I'll word it

19 another way for Mr. Lee.

20 Again, we approve variances based

21 on hardship, and you've made a case, maybe not

22 compelling, but your case for additional -- for

23 an additional garage is for storage because of

24 the things you have. That would be considered a



1 hardship, although one may argue how compelling

2 of a hardship.

3 But certainly, a secondary building

4 for the purpose of somebody playing, I don't know

5 if that is a hardship, and I'm -- I mean, we're

6 tasked with issuing variances when there's

7 hardship presented.

8 MR. LEE: I've been told that -- I

9 don't know, I have not looked into it -- that

10 there are other buildings in Novi with detached

11 playhouses. I guess that's a separate -- not

12 considered a separate structure. I don't know if

13 that's valid or not, but if there was a case

14 found where there is a playhouse that's been

15 lenient on, would the board accept that?

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, when we

17 review cases we review them on their individual

18 merit, based on your situation. We don't tie in

19 other cases to make or break your case so to

20 speak. We're looking at what's in front of us,

21 your lot size -- the request and the sizes that

22 you're requesting, okay, the square footage.

23 And, again, as Member Brennan so

24 eloquently put it, we need to determine the



1 hardship, okay.

2 And so it's not a matter of, you

3 know, what was done in the past or what was done

4 on a different address. It's what's got to be

5 done at this address and what we have to look at,

6 okay.

7 And our first question as board

8 members is can there be a lesser variance. In

9 looking at this request, my answer is yes, I

10 think there can.

11 So either you need to go back,

12 perhaps table this, look at your garage, do

13 something, but as it stands now I don't think

14 you're getting the full support of the board

15 tonight.

16 So we can -- I'm going to look to

17 my elders for support here. Is there-

18 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I think-

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: (Interposing)

20 It's Mr. Lee's call.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if he

22 wants to table it or if we're going to go with a

23 denial? That's what I'm --

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Or whether he's-



1 MEMBER GATT: (Interposing) To

2 change it.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Or if he's ready

4 to modify his variance request for the garage and

5 the elimination of this second facility.

6 MR. LEE: Could I ask question for

7 clarification?


9 MR. LEE: There's two variances

10 here. Is, I guess, the board saying that

11 exceeding the square footage of 850 is allowable

12 but it's the extra structure that is the

13 difficulty here?


15 MR. LEE: If this garage was

16 attached to the main house so that I no longer

17 have a de -- two detached buildings, is that

18 acceptable?

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. I don't

20 -- can you repeat the question for me, please.

21 MR. LEE: This garage not having

22 been built yet, if I made it attached to the

23 house so it's not -- no a longer detached

24 structure, so the only detached structure is the



1 playhouse, is that acceptable?

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would have to

3 refer you to the building department.

4 MR. SAVEN: It's still over 850

5 square feet.

6 MEMBER REINKE: Still in excess of

7 the square footage requested for garage space.

8 And I cannot support the additional

9 garage space and have that other building sit

10 there. Now, to me, it's either one or the other.

11 MEMBER GRAY: Even though the

12 garage with the house now is attached, we still

13 calculate it as a separate -- it's not living

14 space. It's a separate space for garage, so

15 you're over the square footage allowed,

16 significantly, so you have to reduce that.

17 And what are you willing to do to

18 reduce it? Are you willing to give up the

19 playhouse is basically where I think the spirit

20 of this board is tonight. The garage or the

21 playhouse.

22 And you can choose to table it and

23 come back next month. Take it, talk it over and

24 -- you can choose that option. We don't take any



1 action if you want to table it and bring it back

2 next month after you've had time to discuss it.

3 MR. LEE: I probably would table it

4 for next month because --

5 MS. CHAIRMAN: That's fine.

6 MR. LEE: So the choice is either

7 the playhouse or the garage. The garage cannot

8 be -- the new garage cannot be attached and still

9 exceed the square footage.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: That's correct.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Whether it's

12 attached or not doesn't matter is what it comes

13 down to.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I just

15 want a clarification. You're going to table it

16 until next month then and come back before us

17 with a different plan?

18 MR. LEE: Yes. I'm going to think

19 about it I guess.

20 MEMBER GRAY: If you have any

21 questions, you can certainly talk to the building

22 department and they may answer any questions you

23 may have. Correct, Mr. Saven?

24 MR. SAVEN: Well, I think from the



1 point that I'm picking up here, and correct me if

2 I'm wrong, we know that if he opted to add the

3 garage onto the existing house he would still

4 have that square footage requirement, and

5 anything that's excess of the 850 square foot for

6 the sum total of all accessory structures, and

7 that would include his playhouse that's in the

8 back, so he would still be there for that number

9 but he would eliminate one of the variances.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.

11 MR. SAVEN: Okay. The other aspect

12 is that, in helping move things along, and I'm

13 sure he's going to ask me the question, what

14 happens if he reduces the size of the garage,

15 instead of 24 by 24 reducing that down by a

16 number.

17 MEMBER REINKE: If it goes under

18 850 feet, I don't have a problem.

19 MR. SAVEN: There you go.

20 MR. LEE: So you say -- I'm sorry.

21 Can I ask for clarification?

22 MR. SAVEN: Sure, go ahead.

23 MR. LEE: You're saying that as far

24 as -- if I reduce the -- this 24 by 24 garage



1 down to a one-car garage to fit the 850 square

2 feet, you say that is acceptable?

3 MEMBER REINKE: What I'm saying is

4 that if you need any kind of variance for your

5 total garage space, my opinion, the playhouse has

6 to go.

7 MR. LEE: Okay. I guess there's

8 two variances here that -- I'm confused. The one

9 is the number of structures and the other is the

10 total square footage.

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.

12 MR. LEE: Now, if I eliminate the

13 one structure, you're saying although the garage

14 might exceed the total square footage, 20 by 24,

15 that is acceptable so long as that is the only

16 detached building. And then the other

17 alternative I have is that if I decide to -- you

18 said only -- the fewer the variance the better,

19 so now if I decide to make this garage smaller,

20 18 by 15, whatever it takes to just not exceed

21 the 850 square foot, then it's acceptable because

22 now I only have one -- I still have a variance of

23 two buildings but that is acceptable?

24 MEMBER REINKE: I'm not going to



1 say that.

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.

3 MEMBER REINKE: Because I'm not

4 going to say something that I'm going to totally

5 agree with until I have it in front of me. My

6 opinion is that if you need a variance request --

7 I'm opposed to the additional structure. If

8 you're going to have a structure that's a garage,

9 I'm opposed to keeping the playhouse. That's one

10 person's point of view in looking at this case.

11 MR. LEE: Even smaller garage to

12 meet the size?


14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Do you have any

15 further questions?

16 MR. LEE: No.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Then at this time

18 the board will table Case Number 03-067 until the

19 September meeting.

20 All those in favor?

21 (Vote taken.)

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair, can I

23 ask that Mr. Lee be put first on the agenda so he

24 can be here at 7:30 and we'll take care of you



1 first.

2 MR. LEE: Okay.

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.


5 CASE NUMBER 03-068

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's call Case

7 Number 03-068 filed by Jeffrey DeFoe of

8 44115 Grand River Avenue.

9 Mr. DeFoe.

10 MR. DeFOE: Good evening, Mayor.

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening. He's

12 requesting -- no, no. I'm just the Chairwoman.

13 That's Mr. Clark.

14 He's -- you're requesting two

15 variances this evening, and if you would like to

16 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our

17 secretary.

18 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

19 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

20 03-068?

21 MR. DeFOE: Yes, I do.

22 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: If you would like to

24 tell us a little bit about your-



1 MR. DeFOE: (Interposing) Sure

2 thing. We're proposing to put an addition on the

3 side of the house. The problem we have is the

4 way our site plan -- the way the land actually

5 runs. It actually -- we have an angled lot.

6 It's a corner lot. With that, we're proposing to

7 put a 20 by 20 addition on it. One corner of it

8 goes only 33 feet. On the other side, the very

9 far end, the east end of the house, that actually

10 goes at roughly about thirty-six-and-a-half feet,

11 so it clearly passes on one side, but the other

12 corner it doesn't exceed the 35 minimum for the

13 setback.

14 The other variance is for where the

15 garage is, and there is actually a nine foot. I

16 didn't have the measurement at the time. There's

17 a nine foot variance between where the garage

18 would be and where the addition would lie.

19 So with that, those are the two

20 areas that I'm looking to have this variance for.

21 The reasoning behind that actually

22 is, to make a long story short, I lost -- I lost

23 my job, my wife lost our job. We moved in with

24 our in-laws, our parents. So now instead of



1 having one family in the house, we have two.

2 With that, it's only about fourteen hundred fifty

3 square foot in the house, way too small for six

4 people to live and reside in one home.

5 So what we're proposing for is the

6 addition of a family room, a larger family room,

7 and also a bedroom to it, and that's what the

8 additional space is for.

9 Really, with that, that is what I'm

10 here tonight for.

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there

12 anyone in the audience that would like to make

13 any comments in regard to this case?

14 (No response.)

15 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there

16 were 16 notices sent; no approvals, no

17 objections.

18 Building department?

19 MR. SAVEN: I just want to go back

20 over this issue about the distance between the

21 garage and the addition, that space. How much is

22 it?

23 MR. DeFOE: Nine feet of space

24 there. There's actually nine feet of space.



1 MEMBER BRENNAN: So the variance

2 request is for one foot, not nine?

3 MR. DeFOE: Yeah. That was -- see,

4 the problem -- I had actually got a call back

5 because I put the wrong numbers down on the paper

6 when I filled out my stuff last month.

7 MR. SAVEN: That makes me feel a

8 little bit better.

9 MR. DeFOE: It's not nine feet,

10 just one foot.

11 MS. MARCHIONI: I had done that

12 just because we didn't know the distance.

13 MR. DeFOE: You called and I wasn't

14 around.

15 MEMBER REINKE: I agree with that.

16 I think that's a lot better.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

18 Member Brennan.

19 MEMBER BRENNAN: These are very,

20 very minimal requests from this petitioner, both

21 the setback on one corner and the one foot

22 separation, and I think that there's sufficient

23 hardship presented. I could support the

24 petitioner.



1 MEMBER REINKE: Is that a motion,

2 Frank?

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I will make that

4 motion. With respect to Case 03-068, I would

5 move that the petitioner's request be granted for

6 purpose of lot configuration and the minimal

7 affects of the variance.


9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Motion's been made

10 and approved -- or seconded, I'm sorry. Is there

11 any further discussion on the motion?

12 (No further discussion.)

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

14 please call the roll.

15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?




1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, sir. Please

4 see the building department. Good luck to you.

5 MR. DeFOE: Thank you very much.

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.


8 CASE NUMBER 03-069

9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Case Number 070 --

10 I'm sorry. 03-070 filed by John Greulich.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think you

12 skipped one, case eight.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Oh, I

14 did. I crossed it off. I apologize.

15 03-069 filed by Mark Jacoby

16 New Horizons at 41108 Vincenti Court.

17 MR. JACOBY: Good evening.

18 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jacoby, good

19 evening. Would you raise your right hand and

20 please be sworn in by our secretary.

21 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

22 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case

23 03-069?

24 MR. JACOBY: Yes, I do.



1 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.

2 MR. JACOBY: Good evening. My name

3 is Mark Jacoby. I am the manager for

4 New Horizons Rehabilitation Services on

5 Vincenti Court. We provide services and programs

6 for a hundred and sixty individuals on a daily

7 basis with a very wide variety of disabilities

8 and functioning levels.

9 One of the primary things that we

10 provide is contract work. We provide -- they

11 come and they earn a paycheck, they learn a

12 vocational skill, and much of that work that we

13 provide them with is automotive assembly work for

14 companies such as Johnson Controls, Lear

15 Corporation, Visteon.

16 And I don't know if any of you work

17 with the automotive industry, while they don't

18 like to store finished goods at their place, they

19 don't have any problem having our suppliers store

20 all of the finished goods. So there's a lot of

21 time when we have a lot of excess storage sitting

22 at our shop.

23 So time line wise, unfortunately,

24 back in September of 1999 we received a violation



1 for storing items outside. In January of 2000,

2 Kelly Wanton (ph), who was the former manager,

3 received a one-year supervised variance to build

4 an outdoor fenced-in storage unit.

5 That storage unit was built in

6 March of 2000. It's a thirteen foot by fourteen

7 foot by six foot tall, completely fenced-in so

8 you can't see what's inside there.

9 I reappeared before the board on

10 January 5th of 2001 and was granted an additional

11 two-year variance onto that.

12 What I'm before you tonight

13 requesting is a permanent variance on that for

14 basically three reasons: Number one, it

15 continues to assist us in providing a safe

16 environment because it allows us extra storage

17 when we get backed up storing all of the

18 automotive companies parts. I guess the big one

19 is that since it was built in March of 2000,

20 there have been no further violations and no

21 further complaints against us. And then third

22 one is that when I was here in January of 2001,

23 it was actually suggested by one of the board

24 members that we were granted a permanent variance



1 at that time, but we agreed on the two-year

2 variance just to see and make sure that

3 everything was flying clear and free, and since

4 it has, again I'm respectfully requesting a

5 permanent variance, that we be allowed to keep

6 that structure there.

7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is

8 there anyone in the audience that wishes to make

9 any comments in regards to this case?

10 (No response.)

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: There were 16

12 notices sent; no approvals, no objection.

13 Building department?

14 MR. SAVEN: No comment. Excuse me.

15 I do have a comment.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right.

17 MR. SAVEN: If the board wishes to

18 grant this for -- if the board wishes to grant

19 this variance, it would be for this person or

20 applicant only.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.

22 Member Brennan.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I'm the one

24 that said if your nose is clean come back and



1 we'll give you a permanent variance, and I'm

2 prepared to do that with the recommendation that

3 it would be granted for your business only.

4 And I'll go on record again. I

5 think you guys are providing an outstanding

6 service for people that need this, and I applaud

7 you.

8 MR. JACOBY: Thank you very much.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: In Case -- I'm

10 sorry. Tom?

11 MR. SCHULTZ: Madam Chair, one

12 other question, because it is a temporary

13 structure, and just throw out there for the

14 board's consideration, the idea that if it's

15 going to be a permanent variance, that there be

16 an obligation for maintaining, structurally sound

17 and in the condition that it's in now so that --

18 you hate to have it deteriorate and us not have a

19 hook back into it, so that it be maintained in a

20 structurally sound manner.

21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay.

22 MR. JACOBY: Can I just say, with

23 reference to that, if I may?




1 MR. JACOBY: While it may be stated

2 as temporary, that thing's pretty solidly into

3 the ground. I mean, it was given solid footers.

4 It's -- it would cost us a great deal of money to

5 pull out a temporary storage unit. It is solidly

6 in there. Although I do agree, we will keep an

7 eye on it and maintain the quality and the

8 appearance of it as well. We will do that.


10 respect to Case 03-069, I would move that the

11 petitioner's request for a permanent variance be

12 granted because he lived up to his obligations.

13 MEMBER BAUER: Second.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's been a

15 motion and second. Any further discussion on the

16 motion?

17 MEMBER BRENNAN: We did have

18 discussion with respect to that it's granted to

19 this petitioner only and the facility will be

20 maintained.

21 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's my addendum

23 to my motion.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: It's been motioned,



1 seconded, and addendumed. Any further

2 discussion?

3 MS. MARCHIONI: Continuing

4 jurisdiction?


6 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't think so,

7 no.

8 MS. MARCHIONI: No, okay.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think we can

10 waive that.


12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?


24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variance has



1 been granted. Please see the building

2 department.

3 MR. JACOBY: Thank you, and I thank

4 the board very much.


6 CASE NUMBER 03-070

7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now I can

8 call your case. Case 03-070 filed by

9 John Greulich of 24800 Willowbrook Drive.

10 I tried to get you a cut ahead.

11 I'm sorry. Good evening. Are you Mr. Greulich?

12 MR. GREULICH: Yes, I am.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to

14 raise your right hand for our secretary to be

15 sworn in, please.

16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

17 swear or affirm to tell the truth in Case 03-070?

18 MR. GREULICH: Yes, sir.

19 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. Go

20 ahead.

21 MR. GREULICH: Okay. We're

22 planning to put an addition onto our existing

23 home. We've been living there for ten years now.

24 We looked at the pie shaped lot that our house is



1 presently on, and it's kind of on an irregular

2 angle.

3 And the plan that we drew up takes

4 one -- the back right corner over the allowable

5 limit by two foot three inches.

6 And we looked at a couple of other

7 ideas, maybe moving out to the rear in some

8 fashion, but that would have caused us to have to

9 move a significant weight bearing beam and

10 destroy the deck that's presently on there, which

11 would have been much more costly.

12 We looked at moving forward in the

13 right. That would esthetically take the roof

14 lines and alter that.

15 So the most reasonable, we felt,

16 and economical plan is the one that we have

17 before you, and asking for your consideration to

18 approve our present plan.

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there

20 anyone else in the audience that wishes to make a

21 comment?

22 (No comment.)

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: There were 25

24 notices sent; three approvals. There's a letter



1 from Bernard and Maria Sear on Willowbrook, and

2 Mark and Jan Less at 24770 Willowbrook, and I

3 don't know if this is a -- this is also an

4 approval letter from Beachtree Development that

5 owns the build -- office building located

6 northwest of Mr. Greulich's residence, and they

7 have no objections with the granting of this

8 variance.

9 Building department?

10 MR. SAVEN: Basically, it's what

11 the applicant had indicated. This is an unusual

12 piece of property.

13 If you take a look at the rear of

14 the property, there is a 20 foot easement off the

15 rear. This is not infringing upon that easement.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

17 MEMBER GATT: Madam Chair, I just

18 want to say I visited your home. It's a gorgeous

19 home, it's a densely wood backyard, it's on a

20 court, and I don't see any problem with this

21 variance request because of the lot

22 configuration.

23 MEMBER REINKE: Was that a motion?

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Is that a motion?



1 MEMBER GATT: It can be a motion.

2 In Case Number 03-070, I would move that the

3 variance be granted of two feet three inches

4 because of the lot configuration on that piece of

5 property.

6 MEMBER BAUER: Second the motion.

7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Motion's been

8 made and seconded. Any further discussion on the

9 motion?

10 (No further discussion.)

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

12 would you please call the roll.

13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?




1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variance has

2 been approved. Please see the building

3 department.

4 MR. GREULICH: If I may, I'd like

5 to thank Sarah Marchioni for her cooperation in

6 helping get here to this -- help on getting us on

7 this meeting agenda.

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would the board

9 entertain a five-minute break at this point?

10 (A short recess was taken.)


12 CASE NUMBER 03-071

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: We'll call the

14 meeting back to order and call Case Number 03-071

15 filed by James Alt for Baja Fresh Mexican Grille.

16 Mr. Alt, are you an attorney?

17 MR. ALT: No, I'm an architect.

18 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Would you

19 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our

20 secretary, please.

21 MR. ALT: I just dress like an

22 attorney.

23 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly

24 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case



1 03-071?

2 MR. ALT: I do.

3 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.

4 MR. ALT: In the 25 years or so

5 I've been doing this, as I was approaching the

6 bench, the board, have everyone get up and walk

7 out of the room. Kind of set me back a moment.

8 And let me just say that we

9 approach you with the deepest respect regardless

10 of the number of variances that we've requested,

11 and we don't wish to imply anything by that. It

12 just kind of turned out that way. And I'm fully

13 aware of the challenges that I face before you

14 this evening.

15 Let me take just a moment and just

16 give you a nickle's worth, if you don't mind, of

17 what Baja Fresh Mexican Grille is, because many

18 of your may not be aware of what it is. It is a

19 quick, casual, not fast food, sit-down

20 restaurant. You walk in, place an order at a

21 counter, go sit down. In about five to eight

22 minutes later they call your order, and the thing

23 that, from personal experience, makes it

24 completely unique, I believe, is it's stunningly



1 fresh. There are no freezers, can openers,

2 microwaves, no lard or MSG used in any of the

3 preparation of their food items, and it really

4 does separate them, we think, from the balance of

5 that segment.

6 The restaurant seats anywhere from

7 90 to a hundred and twenty persons. We have a

8 TUV (ph) application hearing set for tomorrow

9 requesting outside seating.

10 The special challenge that we face

11 tonight has to do with the fact that -- and I've

12 been blessed to have been given the opportunity

13 to practice in Novi, albeit from quite a distance

14 in Ohio, for about the last 15 years because I

15 was involved in doing the Vic Tanny now Bally

16 Total Fitness, and I've done numerous remodels to

17 it at Novi Town Center, and I was -- I've been

18 allowed to know in the Town Center board meetings

19 that we had way back then in the mid '80s that

20 this building was originally intended as a

21 multi-tenant structure with many -- with many

22 tenants, with numerous accesses, including under

23 the clock tower.

24 We think we face a unique situation



1 there that merits your consideration for one or

2 two or three or more variances.

3 To begin with, the restaurant has

4 wonderful exposure. The building will have

5 wonderful exposure, but the building basically

6 turns its back on Crescent and faces south into a

7 parking lot. Therein lies a challenge. If it

8 made sense, we would relocate the front door so

9 that it faced Crescent and there would be no need

10 to address -- at least not on those merits,

11 address you about a variance.

12 In addition to that, we have what

13 we think is just a basic health and welfare and

14 traffic safety issue. I'm not trying to be

15 disingenuous, but it really does make sense that

16 we try to let the public know where we are and

17 that they not have to maybe circle our building

18 and other buildings in Novi Town Center when we

19 can give them a little bit better chance to know

20 where we're located if we were able to have

21 signage on the Crescent side of the building.

22 I'm hopeful that we'll be able to

23 work out a compromise of some kind that might

24 afford us the opportunity to have some additional



1 signage.

2 Last, let me say that with the sign

3 band geometry what it is, and you had a -- I'm

4 pretty sure you've had an opportunity to take a

5 look at the building, we're not actually taking

6 advantage of the full 40 square feet that the

7 ordinance would allow us to have. We're in the

8 30s, in the low 30s, for that one sign. That

9 would be our primary tenant identifier located

10 approximately over the front door facing south

11 into the parking lot.

12 That's it.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. I

14 can look out there and see that there's no one in

15 the audiences that wishes to make any comment.

16 There were forty-seven notices

17 sent; no approvals, no objections.

18 Building department?

19 MR. SAVEN: No comment, ma'am.

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

21 Member Brennan.

22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I was there today

23 and I saw two signs, two mockups, so until I see

24 four mockups, I can't even address this package.



1 MEMBER REINKE: The two -- the one

2 is hanging down.

3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw the hanging

4 down, and I saw the one on the clock tower. I

5 didn't see anymore than those two.

6 MEMBER GRAY: There's one behind

7 the evergreens.

8 MEMBER REINKE: There's one behind

9 the trees.

10 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's why I

11 didn't see that one.

12 Are all four mockups up?

13 MR. ALT: I think maybe we --

14 forgive me, because I came racing in at the last

15 minute, dumped my luggage at the Windham and came

16 racing right over. I came back and forth on

17 Crescent. I saw the one on the tower and the one

18 on -- facing Crescent that's hidden by the

19 arborvitae.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: All right. Let's

21 use -- Let's use this. Okay?

22 MR. ALT: Sure.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw sign number

24 two. That's on the tower.



1 MR. ALT: Yes. That's there.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw the hanging

3 sign, which is, I think, number four.

4 MR. ALT: Yes, that's right.

5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Which is the one

6 that's behind the trees? Must be number one.

7 MEMBER REINKE: No. I think it's

8 three.

9 MS. MARCHIONI: Frank, sign one

10 doesn't need a variance.


12 MS. MARCHIONI: Sign one doesn't

13 need a variance.

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Let's take that

15 off.

16 MS. MARCHIONI: So there should

17 only be three mockup signs up anyway.

18 MR. ALT: That's where I was headed

19 with that. We didn't want to not open with

20 signage, and we're rocking along here, so we took

21 that off the agenda in the sense that it is --

22 it's a permissible size and location.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. I retract

24 my initial statement then. Let's talk -- are we



1 at the board portion yet? You said no comments?

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I did.

3 MR. SAVEN: I said no comments.

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. I do not

5 like that sign on that tower. That's starting to

6 look like a dang bulletin board.

7 This thing's under construction.

8 Why don't you move your front door to the

9 Crescent side?

10 MR. ALT: We actually are placing a

11 required means of egress -- to fulfill our second

12 means of egress requirement, we are putting a

13 door on the Crescent side. It's a bit

14 inconvenient. Parking's all on the south side.

15 There's a walkway that circles the north side of

16 the building, and we've laid out the whole

17 restaurant based upon the front door facing the

18 south. So when you walk in, that's how you see

19 -- first your presented with a menu and so on.

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: But is that for

21 customers to come in from that tower sign?

22 MR. ALT: No, no. That's an egress

23 -- emergency egress only, emergency egress only.

24 As a matter of fact, I think in the



1 package I sent to Sarah Marchioni, I sent a

2 footprint, the actual floor plan of the

3 restaurant, so that we could agree on how to

4 calculate the frontage.

5 It's on an eight-and-a-half by

6 eleven. I'd be happy to hand you a copy of that.

7 And it does show where the front door is and

8 where that egress door is.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I sure don't like

10 that sign on the tower. That was my only

11 comment.

12 MEMBER BAUER: I don't care for it

13 either.

14 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's all I have

15 to say. Thanks.

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

17 Everybody's looking -- trying get their north and

18 south and east and west focused here.

19 Any other comments?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: One other point.

21 In the Town Center, as I recall, there are a

22 number of signs hanging like number four is, a

23 relatively small sign. That's where the sidewalk

24 is where people are going in and out, so I don't



1 have a problem with four. And sign number three

2 is their primary sign. That's their entranceway.

3 And if you have -- sign number one is going to be

4 on Crescent Boulevard, is it not?

5 MR. ALT: Sign number one actually

6 faces the parking lot, sign number three faces

7 the Crescent. I think that's right.

8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Dang, am I all

9 turned around.

10 MR. ALT: I apologize for the plan

11 not being clear.

12 Sign number one does face the

13 parking lot. Sign number two on this plan faces

14 Crescent.

15 MEMBER GRAY: Is that the one

16 that's behind the trees?

17 MR. ALT: That's the one behind the

18 trees.


20 MR. ALT: Three's on the tower and

21 four is hanging over the front door.

22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Four is hanging over

23 the door.

24 MR. ALT: Four is -- yeah. It's an



1 oval hanging over the door, and under the canopy.

2 Number three is that 50 square

3 footer up on the tower.

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Wherever it is,

5 that's the one I don't like.

6 MR. ALT: Sign number two is

7 actually behind a row of arborvitae, three of

8 which have been cut down over the years because

9 they were either diseased or the utility company

10 complained because they screened a bank of gas

11 meters.

12 And for what it is worth, in

13 conversations that we've had with Mr. Jim Clear,

14 he has expressed his willingness to work with us

15 and allow us to bear the cost, if you permit us

16 to do so, to remove those arborvitae on behalf of

17 replacing them with arborvitae or other approved

18 plantings that would be slightly shorter and

19 continue -- and kept groomed so that we would be

20 able to have a sign band sign facing Crescent as

21 it is presently shown on the building, the banner

22 on the building.

23 So he's basically saying if you say

24 it's okay, it's okay with him, he'll let us cut



1 down the plants that screen that sign facing

2 Crescent and replace it with approved

3 landscaping, City of Novi approved landscaping,

4 in addition to which adding plantings that would

5 complete that row again, because those are

6 16-years-old and they're about 15 feet high and

7 they're starting to show a little wear.

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Bauer?

9 MEMBER BAUER: One thing you do

10 have to get is when we get that all set is a

11 letter from the people that run that place, the

12 Town Center.

13 MR. ALT: Mr. Clear said that he

14 was sending a letter. If that did not occur,

15 I'll be sure to follow right up on that.

16 MS. MARCHIONI: He sent a letter

17 for the outdoor seating but not the signage.

18 MR. ALT: Oh, did he?


20 MR. ALT: Okay, Sarah. I will go

21 address that immediately. I will take care of

22 that immediately.

23 MEMBER BAUER: Might as well wait

24 until we tell you what (inaudible).



1 MR. ALT: Yeah, right, exactly.

2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?

3 Member Reinke.

4 MEMBER REINKE: Granted you need

5 some signage, you need some identification. The

6 one thing that stood out the most to me, and I

7 went around this thing about six times, and on

8 the band of the dome section-

9 MR. ALT: (Interposing) Yes.

10 MEMBER REINKE: -you have a sign

11 there. Where -- what is your direction intention

12 of that sign?

13 MR. ALT: You mean on this drawing

14 or on the banner, the actual banner?

15 MEMBER REINKE: On -- that's on the

16 building, on the end of the above the doors or

17 windows.

18 MR. ALT: There is a sign band

19 sign, yes, facing -- it's almost due south right

20 into the parking lot on the sign band right at

21 the dome. It actually just barrels right there.

22 That's the front door.

23 Our desire was to have a sign

24 there. That's the sign number one which we have



1 not presented for appeal because it's less than

2 the maximum permissible square footage, and the

3 goal of that sign was to say here's the front

4 door. And it's actually where -- on the plan

5 that you have in front of you, it's where arrow

6 number one points.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's the front

8 door, sign number one.

9 MR. ALT: That's the front door,

10 sign number one.

11 The number four that's right next

12 to it is actually oval. It would hang underneath

13 the canopy.

14 MEMBER REINKE: Right, right.

15 MR. ALT: Number two is located --

16 we shifted number two around onto the brick on

17 this -- off that round element and over on the

18 brick.

19 MEMBER REINKE: Two's the one

20 that's behind the trees I thought.

21 MR. ALT: Number two.

22 MEMBER BAUER: When you have these

23 listed as two and four or three to four, if the

24 two was number two sign, that would have helped



1 greatly.

2 MR. ALT: I'll work on that.

3 MEMBER REINKE: Number three is on

4 the band of the dome shape section, correct?

5 MR. ALT: Number three is actually

6 the 50 square foot tower sign.

7 MEMBER BRENNAN: On the tower, this

8 one.

9 MS. MARCHIONI: Jim, do you have

10 the map? Maybe you can put it on the overhead

11 and kind of point it out, what sign's what.

12 MR. ALT: Yes. Right here is sign

13 number three on the site plan, and it is on the

14 base of the tower, 50 square feet.

15 Over here is number one. It would

16 be the sign mounted on the face of the sign band

17 which we're -- which is presently in compliance,

18 less than 40 feet, and identifies the front door.

19 Next to it is number four, which is

20 the oval which would be suspended underneath.

21 And then the one that's a little

22 bit confusing is number two, which is all the way

23 over here, and it's shown on the circular part of

24 the dome, not on the barrel but on the circular



1 part of the dome here. And we moved it at the

2 last minute onto the brick right here.

3 And there is a row of arborvitae

4 right there which, as I said before, were planted

5 as part of the original building, and there are

6 three more arborvitae right in this area right

7 here that were cut down over the years, and they

8 conceal the gas meter bank for the whole

9 building.

10 And what we're proposing, if you

11 elect to let us put our sign number two there, or

12 some version of sign number two there, the

13 understanding would be that we would present a

14 design for landscaping to the City that would

15 allow us to remove the arborvitaes that are there

16 that are about sixteen feet high -- fifteen feet

17 high, sixteen-years old, are beginning to show

18 their age, and we would put back as much of

19 whatever gennis (ph) and species, caliber, size

20 the City would like, and we would complete the

21 landscaping all the way over into that little

22 corner of the building right there and, once

23 again, conceal the gas meter bank, present a

24 uniform landscape face across that brick wall



1 with our sign on the band above it.

2 If I could -- if it would be all

3 right if I could just kind of speak off the cuff

4 for just a moment on this thing, I'll share with

5 you what I would like to see as the designer.

6 I'd like to see us be able to keep

7 our front door sign, the 32 or so square feet

8 sign, number one. I'd like us to be able to keep

9 our oval hanging sign, number four. I'd like us

10 to be able to have some version of sign number

11 two above those redone arborvitae. And forget

12 the tower.

13 And I think I'm being completely

14 realistic there because I know how challenging

15 getting any approval on that tower sign is going

16 to be, not just before this board but because

17 there's -- from what I understand in

18 conversations with Miss Marchioni, there's

19 actually legislation required to -- for us to

20 gain approval for that because of the previous

21 method by which Boyne Country Sports gained

22 permission to have a sign there, and that the

23 language specifically states there can only be

24 one sign there, and she references that here.



1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Brennan.

2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Boy, you must be a

3 mind reader, because if you had asked me to make

4 a motion, that's exactly what I would have moved.

5 I don't have any problem with your

6 -- obviously with your sign number one. That's

7 your entry to the business. The little oval sign

8 was not overwhelming to me. I think it makes

9 sense to have sign number two, and especially

10 with what you're planning on doing. And as long

11 as you're willing to get rid of that tower sign,

12 I don't have any problem with that amended

13 version.

14 MEMBER BAUER: I agree.

15 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman?

16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Member Reinke.

17 MEMBER REINKE: I agree with

18 everything except one. The sign -- and it's just

19 -- I'm thinking out loud in the process that

20 we're going through.

21 The thing that's unique about that

22 building coming up on the north side of it is the

23 end shape with that dome. It draws your

24 attention to anything. That section itself is



1 what you look at and what you see because it's

2 different, it's unique. In my estimation, you

3 get more exposure with the sign where you had it

4 before, before you put it on the brick wall.

5 MR. ALT: May I respond?


7 MR. ALT: I have a piece of

8 information that I can give you on that.

9 Off to the right actually -- and

10 I'll just draw right on here for you -- there are

11 -- there's a grove of really very nice really

12 feathery white pines right there, and they do a

13 couple of things, positive and not so positive.

14 One is they screen the dumpster right there.

15 They do a really nice job of screening the

16 dumpster, but they also completely screen the

17 storefront that -- what storefront that we do

18 have that faces Crescent, and that was the

19 motivation for moving sign number two from that

20 -- from this point right here on the barrel

21 around to this side because we felt like I didn't

22 stand a snowball's chance in a cold Michigan

23 winter of getting approval for something that

24 would require the removal of these pines. These



1 pines are gorgeous.

2 MEMBER REINKE: You're talking of

3 it being at the center of that end structure,

4 correct?

5 MR. ALT: Or anywhere along there.

6 I stood there and I looked and I panned left and

7 right.

8 MEMBER REINKE: Driving by there,

9 my vision was it would be on the northern

10 section.

11 MR. ALT: Right about there.

12 MEMBER REINKE: Right in there,

13 correct.

14 MR. ALT: Yeah. I took a look at

15 that, too, and that gives us a window -- it gives

16 us a peekaboo about like that.

17 MEMBER REINKE: That's a little

18 more than that.

19 MR. ALT: Well, maybe more than

20 that, okay. Something like that perhaps, almost

21 perpendicular to the street.

22 And that's for the exiting traffic.

23 You'd be westbound on Crescent and you'd get that

24 view. If you were eastbound you'd be past those



1 trees when -- and you'd be having -- you'd have

2 to look hard behind you to the right to see the

3 sign.

4 That was our motivation for

5 bringing it over here, so that we can get -- so

6 we open up that angle a little bit to catch it.

7 I agree with you. I would rather

8 have the sign, if we were going to be allowed to

9 have a second sign, on the storefront because

10 then the sign -- your eye hits the sign and then

11 looks and sees the glass and sees the activity

12 and the lights and the sparkle and everything of

13 the activity, whereas where we're proposing it,

14 it's a blank brick wall fronted by arborvitae.

15 And so it's a compromise in our

16 view, too.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Saven, did you

18 have something to offer?

19 MR. SAVEN: Yes. I would just like

20 to add to the board that this gentleman is

21 talking about sign number two in which he's

22 willing to cut down the arborvitaes and replace

23 it with anything that's acceptable. I would like

24 to make this as part of the motion, that he sees



1 the City's landscape architect for approval for

2 this particular feature before he engages in that

3 sign.

4 MS. CHAIRMAN: That was my question

5 actually, so you took the words out of my mouth.

6 MR. SAVEN: I didn't mean to do

7 that.

8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Member Brennan.

9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think we have

10 some sentiment here that we can at least try a

11 motion and see how the board sits.

12 With regard to Case 03-071, sign

13 number two I would move for approval and the

14 location at the petitioner's desire; sign number

15 three denied; sign number four approved; with

16 sign number two, petitioner acknowledging that

17 there's some landscaping that has to be done and

18 you're going to address that and work with the

19 City on the removal and replacement.

20 MR. ALT: Yes.

21 MEMBER BRENNAN: And the purpose of

22 the variance is for business recognition and a

23 very difficult building.

24 MEMBER BAUER: Second.



1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Motion's been moved

2 and seconded. Any further discussion on the

3 motion? Member Gray.

4 MEMBER GRAY: I don't have any

5 problem supporting these, but I'd also like to

6 remind the petitioner that the Town Center has

7 started doing directional signs inside, too, and

8 I'm presuming that your recognition will be up

9 there as well.

10 MR. ALT: We may be too late for

11 that. I don't know. We've met with Jim, and

12 actually that wasn't discussed, and I will, I

13 will. But I was pleased to see them. They're --

14 I think they're extremely attractive.

15 MEMBER GRAY: They're very helpful

16 everywhere they are.

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any further

18 discussion?

19 (No further discussion.)

20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,

21 please call the roll.

22 MS. MARCHIONI: Frank, reason for

23 denial of sign three?

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's ugly. Do I



1 need a reason for (inaudible) even when

2 petitioner's already offered to remove it?

3 MR. SCHULTZ: I guess -- is the

4 petitioner withdrawing the request for sign

5 number three?

6 MR. ALT: On behalf of the

7 sentiment of the board, I would we pleased to

8 remove that sign from the variance request.


10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Record straight?

12 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes.

13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?


15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?


17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?


19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?


21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?


23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?




1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variances have

2 been approved. Please see the building

3 department.

4 MR. ALT: Allow me to take just one

5 second to say that it's -- right up to this very

6 moment it's been a pleasure working with Mr.

7 Rogan (ph), Mr. Elphenstone, Mr. Amolsch, and

8 Miss Marchioni, and we just look forward to the

9 successful completion of the project.

10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.

11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Look forward to

12 eating there.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right. With

14 that portion of the meeting over with, we have a

15 few other matters to discuss, I guess since I

16 added them to the agenda.

17 Don, every fall the Michigan

18 Planning Association has a conference for

19 planners and zoning people, and it's been to our

20 benefit that we've gone in the past, and I just

21 wanted to bring it up and find out what the

22 status was, if any of the board members would be

23 eligible to go this year. It's at Grand

24 Traverse.



1 MR. SAVEN: Once again, this item

2 is a very tight budget item, conferences and

3 workshops. Once again, this year the tight

4 budget item for those particular conferences and

5 workshop for board members, what have you, and it

6 was something that was considered as far as the

7 budget costs are concerned, but I did not -- I

8 was not privy to get that into my budget.

9 I can petition, if it is the

10 board's desire, I can make the request, but I'm

11 not sure whether or not I'll be able to do this,

12 but I would need to know how many would be

13 interested in going.

14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members, any

15 interest?

16 MEMBER GATT: When is it?

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: October 15th to the

18 18th.

19 MEMBER REINKE: It's a very

20 beneficial function. We've always come back and

21 learned a lot and picked up a lot from it. If at

22 all possible, I'd think it's something we should

23 look at, and I would be interested in going.

24 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would definitely



1 be interested. And I understand about budget

2 cuts and tight economy, and I think, especially

3 with the newer members and the changes that are

4 taking place -- and our own attorney firm last

5 year gave a wonderful presentation up there, and

6 we missed it, which I will segue into my next

7 section, topic, but it's just a wonderful benefit

8 for board members.

9 We don't do this as a profession.

10 This is our hobby, as somebody once told me, so

11 -- I mean it's -- and so I would like to be as

12 knowledgeable as possible, and so if there is

13 anything that we can do to help this board gain

14 that knowledge or otherwise, yes.

15 So if you could submit that

16 request?

17 MR. SAVEN: I would need to know

18 how many people would be interested.

19 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would be

20 interested.

21 MEMBER GRAY: I've never attended

22 one of these conferences. I would be interested.

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: So it would be

24 three. Bob?



1 MEMBER GATT: I'll be in Denver on

2 business through the 14th.

3 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Brennan?

4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I make all the

5 motions. I'm all set.

6 MS. MARCHIONI: Would you like me

7 to do the hotel accommodations?


9 MS. MARCHIONI: That was a joke.

10 MEMBER REINKE: Don't worry about

11 the hotel, just make sure you schedule

12 Mr. Sanghvi's transportation.

13 MS. CHAIRMAN: And if a tree falls,

14 I don't want to hear about it.

15 (Discussion being held around

16 the table.)

17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Speaking of

18 education, in June I talked -- or we talked about

19 training with Mr. Schultz and your senior

20 partner, Jerry Fisher. Are you any closer to

21 picking a date and organizing that?

22 MR. SCHULTZ: We talked. Our

23 preference would be Wednesday nights, just

24 because of the fewer meetings. It probably would



1 be best if it was not a Planning Commission

2 night.


4 MR. SCHULTZ: And in terms of --

5 and so we're fairly open. I mean, the idea would

6 be for both of us to be there, and I know Jerry

7 is very interested. We prepare handout material

8 like we did last time, update it, and I think

9 take the opportunity to prepare, like we

10 mentioned last time, kind of a motion cheat sheet

11 and talk about that, as part of the presentation.

12 One of the things that we probably

13 haven't talked about is location, because we tend

14 to believe that you get more bang for the buck if

15 you do it sort of off site, and we had good

16 success doing it at our office, but I know it's

17 in Farmington Hills and it's not as convenient

18 for you. But it tends to work better when it's

19 kind of a separate training session as opposed to

20 something people can wander in and out of and,

21 you know, at City Hall. But we're open to doing

22 it anywhere that the board would like.

23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't have any

24 problem with Farmington Hills.



1 MEMBER REINKE: Farmington Hills is

2 not that far away.

3 MR. SCHULTZ: We're at Thirteen and

4 Northwestern. We have an auditorium that's

5 really built for this. It's the whole idea of

6 having it.

7 MEMBER REINKE: We're away from

8 interruptions here and so forth.

9 MR. SCHULTZ: Exactly.

10 MEMBER REINKE: I think it would be

11 really much better to just have it there.

12 MR. SCHULTZ: You know, it's

13 obvious. You can talk about any cases that --

14 this board doesn't really have that, you're kind

15 of done with yours when you're done with yours.

16 We don't talk about City cases, we don't talk

17 about any public meeting kind of issues. Just a

18 training session.

19 MEMBER GRAY: Would you also choose

20 a couple dates to offer to us and-

21 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) Do

22 you want me to go through the calendar and pick

23 non Planning Commission dates?

24 MR. SCHULTZ: Any non Planning



1 Commission dates.

2 MEMBER GRAY: Because aren't there

3 some planning commissioners that would also

4 benefit from this?

5 MR. SCHULTZ: I think this would be

6 -- we'd just like to do ZBA and have a separate

7 Planning.

8 MS. MARCHIONI: I'll pick some

9 dates, non Planning Commission night (inaudible).

10 MEMBER REINKE: It's hard to do a

11 combination.

12 MS. MARCHIONI: You give me your

13 schedule.

14 MEMBER GRAY: Wednesdays are good

15 for me.

16 MR. SCHULTZ: And then if it's

17 going to be Wednesday night, what we typically do

18 is order in, you know, something from Buddy's or

19 something like that so you don't have to go home

20 and then come, that way you can get started by

21 6:30 or something like that so you're not real

22 late.

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: Other thing, too,

24 like we talked, and Tom and I talked back in July



1 in regards to the motions, especially with what

2 has happened in the past, and I think that we can

3 always use a brush-up. I mean, we have some

4 members on the board that have been here for a

5 long time and they may not need brushing up, but

6 newer members do, and they can always offer some

7 insight to us, so that was the real reason, and

8 that's why it's only a ZBA.

9 MR. SCHULTZ: One of the things

10 we'll talk about is how much the Oakland County

11 Circuit Court has changed in the last few years

12 with different judges and different members and

13 different expectations. It's good to be reminded

14 of what they might be expecting.

15 MS. CHAIRMAN: So, Sarah, if you

16 could do that, that would be great.

17 Is there anything else to be

18 discussed?

19 MEMBER GRAY: I would like to know

20 why we're not receiving Planning Commission

21 meeting minutes. We haven't received them for

22 several months now.

23 MS. MARCHIONI: The whole set?

24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Anything.



1 MEMBER GRAY: We haven't received

2 anything.

3 MS. MARCHIONI: I thought we --

4 well, I know you haven't gotten action summaries,

5 but I thought we determined that nobody wanted a

6 full set of minutes. You want full sets?


8 MS. MARCHIONI: All right.

9 MEMBER GRAY: Is there anybody who

10 doesn't want full sets.

11 MS. CHAIRMAN: We discussed that,

12 that we weren't going to do the full sets, we

13 were just going to get action summaries.

14 MS. MARCHIONI: You want full sets?

15 MEMBER GRAY: I want full sets

16 because the action summaries aren't giving near

17 enough information.

18 MS. MARCHIONI: Does everybody

19 wants full sets?

20 MEMBER BRENNAN: When did we last

21 see an action summary from the Planning

22 Commission?

23 MS. CHAIRMAN: I haven't seen any.

24 MR. SCHULTZ: They have started in



1 the last couple months. They are starting to

2 come out.

3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anything

4 else?

5 (No further discussion.)

6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll

7 adjourn this meeting. Have a great evening.

8 (The meeting was adjourned

9 at 9:23 p.m.)

10 - - -

11 Date approved:

October 7, 2003 __________________________

Sarah Marchioni Recording Secretary

















1 C E R T I F I C A T E


3 I, Cheryl L. James, do hereby

4 certify that I have recorded stenographically the

5 proceedings had and testimony taken in the

6 above-entitled matter at the time and place

7 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify that

8 the foregoing transcript, consisting of one hundred and

9 nineteen (119) typewritten pages, is a true and correct

10 transcript of my said stenograph notes to the best of

11 my ability.



14 -------------------------

Cheryl L. James, CSR-5786