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REGULAR MEETING -- ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS
Proceedings had and testimony taken in the matters of ZONING BOARD OF APPEALS at City of Novi, 45175 West Ten Mile Road, Novi, Michigan, on Tuesday, August 12, 2003.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: If everyone's here,
2 we'll start the August 2003 Zoning Board of
3 Appeals meeting.
4 Sarah, would you please call the
6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
7 MEMBER BAUER: Present.
8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: Here.
10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
11 MEMBER GATT: Here.
12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
13 MEMBER GRAY: Present.
14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
17 MEMBER REINKE: Here.
18 MS. MARCHIONI: And Member Reed I
19 have absent excused.
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: The Zoning Board of
21 Appeals is a hearing board empowered by the Novi
22 City Charter to hear appeals seeking variances
23 from the applications of the Novi zoning
1 It takes a vote of at least four
2 members to approve a variance request and a vote
3 of the majority of the members present to deny a
4 variance. Tonight we have a full board.
5 Also on our agenda this evening
6 you'll notice in the beginning for the members in
7 the audience that there's rules of conduct. We
8 ask that you review those before approaching the
9 board, especially the new rule of all cell phones
10 and pagers to be turned off during the meeting.
11 Agendas, any changes?
12 MS. MARCHIONI: Well, you all
13 received the July 8th minutes yesterday, so it's
14 at your discretion if you would like to approve
15 those tonight or not. If not, we can remove
17 And also, under other matters,
18 Member Gronachan, you wanted to discuss the
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes. Thank you.
21 Conferences, and I would like to add the training
22 date as well.
23 MS. MARCHIONI: Okay.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Anything
2 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chairperson?
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
4 MR. SAVEN: At this time I would
5 like to introduce Lisa McDonald who will be
6 taking over our young Sarah's place. Sarah will
7 be moving onto greener pastures but within my
8 department. I'm very happy to announce that Lisa
9 will do a fine job for us.
10 At this time, Lisa McDonald,
11 members of the board.
12 MEMBER BAUER: Welcome aboard.
13 MS. McDONALD: Thank you.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Welcome. We are
15 certainly going to miss Sarah. She's been a
16 vital part of this board, and especially -- I
17 haven't been chair for very long, but I've worked
18 with her, and I know her as well because I see
19 her at my office all the time, so I'm really
20 going to miss you and I wish you the best. I'm
21 sure the board has the same wishes for you.
22 Lisa, we welcome you.
23 MS. McDONALD: Thank you.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Minutes. Is
1 it the board's pleasure to approve June and July
3 Has everyone had time to review the
4 July minutes?
5 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion
6 for approval.
7 MEMBER GATT: Second.
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. It's been
9 moved and seconded for the minutes. All those in
11 (Vote taken.)
12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any opposed?
13 (Vote taken.)
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Therefore, the
15 minutes have been approved.
16 Public remarks. Is there anyone in
17 the audience this evening that wishes to make any
18 comments on cases that are not before us or in
19 regards to any subjects not before the board this
21 (No response.)
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we will
23 go ahead and call our first case.
1 CASE NUMBER 03-062
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Case Number 03-062,
3 filed by Donald Jordan of 45216 Courtview Trail.
4 Mr. Jordan is seeking a request for a ten-inch
5 rear yard variance, construction of a new
7 Mr. Jordan?
8 MR. JORDAN: Good evening.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening. Would
10 you like to raise your right hand and be sworn in
11 by our secretary?
12 MR. JORDAN: Yes.
13 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
14 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding
15 Case 03-062?
16 MR. JORDAN: Yes, I do.
17 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
18 MR. JORDAN: I'm sure you've
19 received the packet that I've submitted to the
20 zoning board, so I would just add to it a couple
21 of highlighted points.
22 One is the house has an existing
23 deck now that has been removed, and the current
24 sunroom that we plan to add onto the house is
1 actually a Four Seasons sunroom, and it will
2 extend less than the existing deck, so it will be
3 less of an obstruction to my neighbors.
4 Additionally, I'm in a little bit
5 of an odd situation that I've already signed the
6 contract with the company that's erecting it, so
7 I'm -- it's a little bit odd because I've
8 actually paid already for the larger sunroom.
9 They said that it would be within the setback.
10 It turns out that it exceeds the setback by about
11 ten inches.
12 And the last point I would like to
13 highlight is the reduced size of the sunroom,
14 because they come in set increments, would kind
15 of yield a tunnel affect in the house, or -- and
16 really defeat the purpose of the sunroom. So
17 with this we feel that we get the full value of
18 our contract, it increases the value of our house
19 and increases the value of the neighborhood.
20 And several homes in the
21 neighborhood had have been putting money into
22 their homes, so I think it meets with the
23 existing development planned in the neighborhood.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anything
2 MR. JORDAN: Not unless the board
3 has any questions.
4 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is
5 there anyone in the audience here to speak on
6 this case this evening?
7 (No response.)
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none,
9 building department?
10 MR. SAVEN: Just a couple issues I
11 would bring to the board's attention. It's not
12 located anywhere within the 12 feet easement at
13 the rear of the property. As the applicant
14 indicated, there was a wood deck in that
15 location, and it's on a plot plan that's being
16 submitted in your packet. I think it's less than
17 projecting whatever that distance was of that
18 wood deck.
19 I do have one comment, should the
20 board decide to approve this deck, there is some
21 concerns that I have as far as columns go for the
22 peers of -- the supporting peers for your -- for
23 that part of the existing deck. Make sure that
24 whoever is going to engineer this for you does it
1 properly, because sometimes the poles or pillars
2 are insufficient on existing decks that are not
3 capable of supporting the load for the sunroom.
4 MR. JORDAN: We've gone and took
5 the extra step of making sure that those will be
6 removed entirely and put in new pillars for that
7 very reason.
8 MR. SAVEN: Okay.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. There
10 were 32 notices sent; no approvals, no
12 I will note, too, for the board's
13 information, that the association approval is in
14 the packet however.
15 Board members? Member Brennan.
16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, this seems
17 like a reasonable request, it's not a big deal.
18 I tend to look at this as a quick checkup, and up
19 and down the board, and if we get a lot of nods
20 we can just move on, unless there's somebody
21 who's got some major objection.
22 MEMBER GATT: I just have one
23 question for Mr. Jordan. The company you signed
24 your deal with and already paid to, how did they
2 MR. JORDAN: I believe what they
3 miscalculated is there -- they thought that the
4 chimney that extends beyond the house was within
5 the -- I believe the entire width of the sunroom
6 is about twelve-and-a-half feet, and when you
7 take a look at the chimney, it visually looks
8 like it's within that, but when you actually run
9 the measurements it exceeds that. I think it
10 might be because of the slope of the land.
11 MEMBER GATT: There's a slope.
12 MR. JORDAN: Yes.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
14 Any other board members comments?
15 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, Member
19 MEMBER BRENNAN: With respect to
20 Case 03-062, I would move that petitioner's
21 request for a variance be approved due to lot
22 configuration and it is a minimal intrusion.
23 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and
1 a second. Any further discussion on the motion?
2 (No further discussion.)
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
4 could you please call the roll.
5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
6 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
8 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
10 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
12 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
14 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
16 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Sir, your variance
18 has been approved. Please see the building
20 MR. JORDAN: Thank you.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
1 CASE NUMBER 03-063
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's start with our
3 next case, Case Number 03-063, filed by
4 Donald Waldenmayer of 24078 Glen Ridge Court.
5 Mr. Waldenmayer here?
6 MR. WALDENMAYER: Yes, I am.
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening.
8 MR. WALDENMAYER: Good evening.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to
10 raise your right hand, please, and be sworn in by
11 our secretary.
12 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
13 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
15 MR. WALDENMAYER: Yes.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
17 MR. WALDENMAYER: Well, I'm looking
18 for a variance for my plans for my backyard, the
19 family room and the small office.
20 I took the -- I had an architect do
21 up the design work for me, and I asked him to
22 design something that was very attractive, that
23 would fit in with the neighborhood, that would
24 not look like an addition, that would add value
1 not only to my house and my property but my
3 I've been a Novi resident all my
4 life and graduated from Novi in 1974, and we're
5 very happy living there. My son goes to
6 Village Oaks, which is in walking distance from
7 my house.
8 The reason we wanted the addition
9 rather than the -- just get -- move out and get a
10 bigger house was we like the neighborhood and we
11 like -- my son likes the school and he doesn't
12 want to change, and we felt that the design
13 itself was nice and very attractive, and we
14 thought that perhaps the City would allow the
15 variance just based on, you know -- rather than
16 going back to the drawing board, to the architect
17 and saying take 13 inches off this, which would
18 take away from the size. It's really not that
19 big of an addition.
20 We would ask the zoning commission
21 (inaudible) to go ahead with the plan as it is.
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Thank you.
23 Is there anyone in the audience that wishes to
24 make comments in regards to this case?
1 (No response.)
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, I'll do
3 it right this time. There were 48 notices sent;
4 two approvals. First approval was by
5 Donald Taylor at 24029 Ripple Creek; second
6 approval is by Rochelle Greenberg at
7 24031 Glen Ridge.
8 Building department?
9 MR. SAVEN: Just point out, once
10 again, that the projection of the addition is not
11 going into the eight-foot easement and towards
12 the rear yard -- excuse me, six-foot easement
13 towards the rear of the yard and that this is a
14 corner lot.
15 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
16 Member Brennan.
17 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, this one was
18 three inches deeper into the setback. I have the
19 same similar comments. I don't have any
20 objections with this. I think this is a
21 reasonable request, and if there's nobody that
22 has objections or questions, I'll go ahead and
23 make a motion.
24 MEMBER GATT: I just have one
1 question. How many kids do you have? I saw the
2 kids toys in your backyard.
3 MR. WALDENMAYER: Well, two now. I
4 had one before we decided the addition. I had
5 the other one. That's what made the decision to
6 make the addition.
7 MEMBER GATT: Well, I think you
8 have a beautiful house and a beautiful addition
10 MR. WALDENMAYER: Thank you, sir.
11 MR. SAVEN: Madam Chairman, I would
12 like to ask one more thing. Regarding the
13 removing of the existing trees, I do want you to
14 touch base with our City forestry regarding this
16 MR. WALDENMAYER: Okay.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?
18 (No further comments.)
19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I'll make a motion
20 with respect to Case 03-063, that petitioner's
21 request be approved based on lot configuration
22 and a minimal intrusion into the setback.
23 MEMBER GATT: Second.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's been a
1 motion and a second. Any further discussion on
2 the motion?
3 (No further discussion.)
4 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
5 would you please call the roll.
6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
7 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
9 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
10 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
11 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
13 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
15 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
17 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
18 MS. CHAIRMAN: You're all set,
19 Mr. Waldenmayer. Your variance has been
20 approved. Please see the building department,
21 and as Mr. Saven has suggested, the forestry as
23 MR. WALDENMAYER: Thank you.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
1 CASE NUMBER 03-064
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Next case that we're
3 going to call down is 03-064 filed by
4 Josephine Jackson, 61 Pleasant Cove.
5 Miss Jackson is requesting a six-foot side yard
6 setback variance for the construction of a new
8 MR. SUTTON: Good evening, board.
9 My names is James Sutton, and I'm speaking on
10 behalf of Mrs. Jackson. I'm actually going to be
11 the builder.
12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Sutton, excuse
13 me, could you please raise your hand and be sworn
14 in by our secretary then?
15 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
16 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
18 MR. SUTTON: Yes, I do.
19 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Go
21 MR. SUTTON: We basically designed
22 the house based on the size of the lot, and then
23 once we had the surveyor come out and lay it out,
24 we found the power lines don't go along the
1 property line like they typically do because they
2 were put in a long time ago.
3 This is a really, really old
4 subdivision, and they literally cut 25 feet into
5 the side of the property. I actually have a
6 little bit of an image here. I don't know if you
7 can put the thing up.
8 This is the proposed house right
9 here, and this dotted line represents the power
10 line going through.
11 And we designed the house to be
12 handicapped, and we -- basically it's a ranch.
13 We reduced and reduced and reduced.
14 I don't know if you have the floor
15 plan there. If not, I can show it to you.
16 But we've reduced it the best we
18 I can show you that, too.
19 And to maintain, you know, the
20 proper widths of the hallways and the rooms to
21 get around, it's just -- we really can't squeeze
22 it anymore, so we're requesting the six-foot
23 variance to keep it away from the power lines and
24 to keep within the proper, I guess, distances for
1 the wheelchair to be able to move around.
2 And the other thing that I'd like
3 to point out that's on this zoning map here is
4 that probably 90 percent of the subdivision is
5 zoned R-4 where you typically only need a
6 ten-foot side yard setback, and because of just
7 like, again, old subdivision, we're right here,
8 which is R-1. It's a 15 foot minimum side yard,
9 whereas 90 percent of the sub is only ten.
10 So that's why we're, you know,
11 hoping that it's not such a big deal to ask for a
12 six-foot variance to get away from the power
13 lines and to accommodate the handicap floor plan.
14 And that's it, unless you have any
15 questions for me.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is
17 there anyone in the audience that wishes to make
18 comment in regards to this case?
19 (No response.)
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there
21 were 18 notices sent; two approvals. First
22 approval is by Scott and Laura Quillen of
23 100 Pleasant Cove Drive, and William Maynes of
24 2450 Old Novi Road.
1 Building department?
2 MR. SAVEN: Just to point out, in
3 the note that I sent to everyone, which --
4 basically, I did get in touch with Detroit Edison
5 regarding the distance from the power line. They
6 recommend at least a ten-foot clearance distance
7 from the power line to the home. So where the
8 location of the power line is really causes no
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
11 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman, I
12 would like to point out that I fall within the
13 notice distance from the property. Due to the
14 nature, I don't think there's a conflict on it,
15 but I will serve at the board's pleasure.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you, Member
17 Reinke. Members?
18 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem.
19 MEMBER BRENNAN: I would appreciate
20 Laverne's input.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right.
22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have a question.
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Do you know
1 whether the house to the west is one of your
3 MR. SUTTON: It's actually the son
4 of Mrs. Jackson, so he approves. I think so.
5 MEMBER GRAY: You also may want to
6 know that young Mr. Jackson also has the radiator
7 shop to the east, and they own the property to
8 the south, so -- my initial response to this was
9 the lot's deep enough you could probably push it
10 back, but since they're surrounded by themselves,
11 you know, and it's going to be handicap
12 accessible, I really don't have a problem with
13 this. The property is deep enough.
14 And although it is not in the shell
15 of the Walled Lake Heights subdivision, it should
16 stand on its own merits, and I think it does.
17 MEMBER BAUER: I have no problem
18 with it.
19 MEMBER REINKE: I think there's
20 adequate distance in the side yards between the
21 homes and between that and the radiator repair
22 shop that you're not really encroaching onto a
23 lot that may be owned by somebody else down the
24 road, so you're not really jamming one thing on
1 top of another.
2 And it wouldn't -- if it wouldn't
3 be for the power line, they wouldn't have the
4 problem that's there, so I really don't have a
5 problem with what they're requesting to do.
6 And with that I approve.
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anybody else?
8 MEMBER BAUER: Fifty-four feet to
9 the house, and he's at least thirty-five, forty
10 feet to the garage. I can't see any problem at
12 MS. CHAIRMAN: I concur with my
13 fellow board members as well. And I don't see it
14 -- especially when you're working with the
15 handicap requirements with the widths and that
16 sort of thing, the house has to be a certain
18 MR. SUTTON: Yeah. I mean, we
19 tried six different floor plans and it's still-
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: (Interposing)
21 Right. It's very difficult. It takes a lot of
22 creativity, and I think that you've exhibited
23 that in this plan.
24 Is there a motion on the table
2 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair, in the
3 matter of Case 03-064, move to approve the
4 variance requested due to the fact that the -- if
5 the power line wasn't there we would not be
6 discussing this, and that the applicant and/or
7 family owns all the surrounding property.
8 MEMBER REINKE: Support.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and
10 a second. Any further discussion on the motion?
11 (No further discussion.)
12 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
13 would you please call the roll.
14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
15 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
17 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
19 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
21 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
23 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
1 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: You have received
3 your variance. Please see the building
5 MR. SUTTON: Thank you.
7 CASE NUMBER 03-065
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Case Number
9 03-065 by Terry Brennan, prospective tenant of
10 22497 Heslip Drive. Miss Brennan is requesting a
11 variance to allow a doggy daycare business to be
12 placed in an existing building that is zoned I-1
13 zoning district.
14 Are you Miss Brennan?
15 MS. BRENNAN: Yes, I am.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you please
17 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our
19 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
20 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
22 MS. BRENNAN: Yes, I do. My
23 partners and I wish to open a dog grooming and
24 training school which will include outdoor --
1 excuse me, indoor recreation for our customers'
3 The Planning Commission of Novi has
4 denied us stating that our use is not
5 specifically listed in the I-1 zoning. Although
6 this is the case, Our use is not specifically
7 excluded nor is it listed as not permitted.
8 In fact, the only use listed that's
9 not permitted is the processing of raw material
10 for shipment in bulk form to be used in an
11 industrial operation at another location.
12 As stated in our petition regarding
13 Section 1902, numbers 11, 15 and 16, we fall
14 within principal uses permitted, especially
15 considering the written phrases including but not
16 limited to, and other uses of a similar and no
17 more objectionable character.
18 The cities of Farmington,
19 Farmington Hills, Milford, Commerce, Canton and
20 Livonia currently have these types of businesses
21 without any problems.
22 We want to provide the Novi
23 community these services, ending the need for
24 residents to travel outside the city, which
1 results in lost revenue.
2 In our denial letter from the
3 Planning Commission, it states we can appeal for
4 a special land use for I-2 zoning. The intent
5 for I-2 zoning states that it is primarily for
6 manufacturing, assembling and fabrication on a
7 large-scale basis whose external physical affects
8 will be felt to some degree by surrounding
10 Gone to the Dogs does not
11 manufacture anything, nor will it affect any
12 surrounding districts. We feel the affects of
13 the General industrial district will be
14 detrimental to both our business and our clients.
15 In closing, Section 1900 states the
16 intent of I-1 zoning as intended to encourage
17 innovations and variety and type, design and
18 arrangement of land uses, but at all times to
19 protect neighboring districts from any adverse
21 Clearly, Gone to the Dogs is more
22 suited for I-1 versus I-2 zoning.
23 And as is the case in many cities,
24 light industrial zonings currently have many
1 vacant buildings. We hope to fill one of Novi's
3 And we'd just like to thank the
4 Zoning Board of Appeals for their time and
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank
7 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes
8 to make comment in reference to this case?
9 (No response.)
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there
11 were 14 notices sent, and one lengthy objection.
12 The objection is from Larry Morianti, and I
13 apologize, Marble Light Corporation,
14 22500 Heslip Drive. His objection is -- I'll try
15 to highlight this -- he's a trustee and tenant, I
16 object for the following reasons. It is a
17 multi-tenant building with the variance request
18 for a space that is located in between industrial
19 tenants. Daily activities include unloading of
20 tractor trailer trucks, movements of heavy lift
21 trucks, as well as other industrial activities.
22 The occupation of a doggy daycare
23 and pet center in this facility does not conform
24 to current tenant activity. It is inappropriate
1 for this facility.
2 I strongly object to the granting
3 of the zoning variance.
4 Building department?
5 MR. SAVEN: No comment.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
7 MEMBER GATT: I have a question.
8 Do you presently run a doggy daycare center now
10 MS. BRENNAN: No.
11 MEMBER GATT: What's your
12 experience? I mean-
13 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) I've
14 groomed dogs for over ten years, I've been
15 training for over 12, various types of different
16 dog experience.
17 MEMBER GATT: Where do you do this?
18 MS. BRENNAN: At the Briarpoint
19 Veterinary Clinic is where I groom. I teach
20 obedience classes at Wolverine training school,
21 and that's in Livonia, Michigan.
22 MEMBER GATT: So you have a long
23 history of working with dogs?
24 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Brennan?
2 MEMBER BRENNAN: We're not related.
3 MS. BRENNAN: I know.
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I wanted to say
5 that right off the bat.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: I was waiting for
7 that actually.
8 MEMBER BRENNAN: First of all, I
9 was very impressed with the homework you've done.
10 MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: And my general
12 feelings, as I wrote down here, is that given how
13 you've got this designed, this is all within the
14 building. You've got industrial companies on
15 either side of you that are industrial by nature,
16 so I don't know that this business is going to be
17 presenting any kind of particular problem.
18 And the fact that the zoning
19 doesn't specifically address your business, or
20 your type of business, I'm compelled to support
21 your request with continued jurisdiction and
22 following the progress of your business and see
23 how it goes.
24 MS. BRENNAN: Okay.
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: We do this on
2 occasion when we're maybe not quite sure but it
3 sounds okay, it feels okay; if it quacks like a
4 duck it's probably a duck.
5 MR. SAVEN: It's a dog in this
7 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's my
9 MS. BRENNAN: Okay. Thank you.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gray?
11 MEMBER GRAY: Well, I also would be
12 in support of this, but I have a few other
14 And, first of all, can you tell me
15 why we didn't get the Planning Commission
17 MS. MARCHIONI: There's a
18 clarification. She never actually went to the
19 Planning Commission. She was denied by the staff
21 MEMBER GRAY: Okay.
22 MS. MARCHIONI: So the request was
23 never in front of Planning Commission.
24 MEMBER GRAY: Okay. The -- one of
1 the other questions I have is, how do you plan to
2 deal with the outdoor activities that are going
3 to be required of these dogs that are being
4 brought in?
5 MS. BRENNAN: The only outdoor
6 activity requirement would be the owner
7 transporting from car to building.
8 If you're talking about waste,
9 we'll patrol yards at least twice daily, be sure
10 that's cleaned up. We will have an indoor potty
11 facility, very similar to the Novi Expo dog show
12 setups. I don't know if you're familiar with
13 that or not.
14 It is in our little petition
15 packet. If you have anymore questions, I can go
16 over that further.
17 We're not encouraging walking,
18 we're not training, we're not doing any
19 activities with the dogs outside the building.
20 MEMBER GRAY: Well, based on a
21 Veterinary Clinic, Vet Select, when that was
22 approved, it was -- they promised that there
23 would be absolutely no outside walking, and that
24 happens constantly.
1 MS. BRENNAN: Sure, sure.
2 MEMBER GRAY: And I know that you
3 really can't control what people do between their
4 car and your building-
5 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure.
6 MEMBER GRAY: -but I would
7 absolutely encourage you to be very strongly
8 regulatory of this because of the objection of
9 your neighbors.
10 MS. BRENNAN: Sure, and we can-
11 MEMBER GRAY: (Interposing) Because
12 in a little bit they're going to pick on you.
13 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. And we can,
14 you know, post a sign in the window and let
15 clients know in their -- upon entering our
16 facility, the application process, we can keep
17 stressing that, you know, when they come in, when
18 they see the door every day, reminders, that type
19 of thing.
20 MEMBER GRAY: But it's also very
21 difficult to control the dogs when they want to
22 do what they want to do.
23 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. That's why we
24 offer training, too, so hopefully we'll help with
2 MEMBER GRAY: Thank you.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gatt?
4 MEMBER GATT: What hours of
5 operation are you going to-
6 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) The
7 facility will be open from 9:00 a.m. to 7:00 p.m.
8 After 6 p.m., the only -- we'll have up to ten
9 dogs with an owner per dog in our building.
10 So basically the majority of people
11 with their pets dropping off and picking up is
12 done by 6:00.
13 We have a very structured drop off
14 and pick up time for the different activities
15 going on versus the indoor recreation and the
17 MEMBER GRAY: You going to have
18 Weekend hours, too?
19 MS. BRENNAN: No. We plan to be
20 closed Saturday and Sunday.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: I have some
22 questions for you. Your training is only going
23 to be in the evening?
24 MS. BRENNAN: Correct.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: And how many hours
2 for the dog training?
3 THE WITNESS: Three hours in the
4 evening, from 6:00 to 9:00 p.m.
5 MS. CHAIRMAN: How large is the
7 MS. BRENNAN: Ten dogs maximum per
8 class. We would probably try to run three
9 classes that evening.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: You're looking at a
11 max of 30 dogs in the building-
12 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Not at
13 one time. It would be ten at a time. Ten come
14 in for class-
15 MS. CHAIRMAN: (Interposing) So
16 you wouldn't run these classes concurrent then?
17 THE WITNESS: Right, correct. I'm
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
20 MS. BRENNAN: So we might have, you
21 know, closing and starting a new class, we might
22 have a little extra, but never at one large -- 30
23 dogs after 6:00 p.m.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: In regards to the
1 eight by four pens that you have there, is that
2 just to hold the dogs while they're there for
4 You're not going to be doing any
5 boarding, correct?
6 MS. BRENNAN: No, absolutely no
7 boarding. The holding pens are if someone's
8 running behind and we're starting a training
9 class and we have a dog or two left, we can put
10 them safely into this containment area while the
11 trainers and their classes are starting up.
12 If there's a dog that seems to be
13 ill for any reason, we can quickly separate that
14 dog, put him in a holding cell -- pen, excuse me.
15 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's not going to
16 ben any overnight stays?
17 MS. BRENNAN: Absolutely not, no,
18 absolutely not.
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. What's the
20 maximum amount of dogs that you would have there
21 during a normal business day?
22 MS. BRENNAN: Ten maximum for
23 grooming, and I think we put 23 for the daycare,
24 so that would be a maximum of 33 daytime hours.
1 Again, The training we just covered
2 starting at 7:00 p.m.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right. So the
4 training in the evening.
5 MS. BRENNAN: Right.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: The doggy daycare,
7 or the babysitting so to speak, so about 33 dogs
8 during the day.
9 MS. BRENNAN: Right.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: And then you have a
11 max of ten dogs for grooming.
12 MS. BRENNAN: Right. That was
13 included in that number of 33.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: In the 33, so a
15 total of 33.
16 And there would not be any dogs
17 overnight in the building?
18 MS. BRENNAN: Absolutely not. And
19 just to add, all grooming dogs are crated at all
20 times. It's not part of the play group that we
21 have set up.
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, where
23 I'm going with my questioning on this is that
24 with this objection letter that we have, with
1 this heavy industrial equipment going in and out,
2 and we've got 33 dogs coming in and out, is there
3 going to be a direct route -- I mean, this is
4 going to be a neighbor of yours-
5 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure,
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: -so we do want to
8 address his concerns. Is there -- is there a
9 specific area where you're going to let the
10 person park the car and get the dog out?
11 What happens if a dog gets loose?
12 MS. BRENNAN: You know, that's the
13 control of other people that I don't necessarily
14 have. We strongly recommend leashing at all
15 times, that type of thing.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: You and I both know-
17 MS. BRENNAN: (Interposing) Sure.
18 MS. CHAIRMAN: -what can happen.
19 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. That's
20 understandable. We're doing temperament testing
21 also, so it's not going to be an aggressive dog
22 at large by any means.
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: No, no. I was more
24 worried of heavy equipment and splat dog.
1 MS. BRENNAN: Sure. The only -- I
2 spoke with a manager over at Marblelight,
3 Mr. Rob Atolla, and we discussed the semi tractor
4 loading and unloading, and he stated it was one
5 truck approximately every two weeks for about an
7 So I'm not aware of this heavy
8 traffic, or was not told.
9 So we had kind of worked out a
10 verbal plan of what to do with the one semi
11 coming in at that time.
12 The building does have a wraparound
13 driveway. If he could back the semi up enough
14 that we could go around it, or go in the other
15 side of the building, come in and drop of again.
16 And we plan to use a parallel
17 parking -- we are the middle building. The
18 parallel parking spot's directly from our door
19 for ease of customers coming in and out with
20 their dogs.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: That does it for my
22 questions. Oh, I do -- I'm sorry. I do have one
23 other question. The dogs that are there for the
24 daycare, is there a specific time that they can
1 be dropped off and then picked up so there's not
2 traffic during the day?
3 MS. BRENNAN: Yes. We have -- drop
4 off hours are between 7:00 and 8:00 a.m. only,
5 and pick up is between 5:00 and 6:00.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: So there's not going
7 to be any traffic throughout the day?
8 MS. BRENNAN: Other than grooming
9 dogs, which starts from 8:00 to 10:00, but from
10 10:00 to 3:00 there should not be any traffic.
11 We have pretty strict drop off/pick up with the
12 number of dogs coming and going. I would like to
13 run it as strictly as we could.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you for
15 clarifying that.
16 MS. BRENNAN: Yep, No problem.
17 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman,
18 this is a unique function, and I think you've
19 done an excellent job in laying it out,
20 guidelines and definitions that you've used, and
21 I could see there's a demand for this, but being
22 where the location is, I would want it to appear
23 every year, and at that time we would review and
24 go from there at that point in time, would be my
2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I have no problem
3 with that. How we do with something like this
4 when it's a little unsure and we'll call you back
5 and see if there's any problems.
6 MS. BRENNAN: Sure.
7 MEMBER BAUER: The attorney wants
8 to talk.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Schultz?
10 MR. SCHULTZ: Just a couple of
11 quick comments. First is a reminder that this is
12 not the typical variance that's before you. This
13 is actually a use variance. We're not talking
14 about the practical difficulty standards, the
15 unnecessary hardship standard, the higher
16 standards that essentially require the proponent
17 to establish that there is no other use of this
18 property that's permitted, and that in the
19 absence of granting this variance the building
20 will be empty and there's no use that can go on.
21 The other thing that I think the
22 board may want to explore is in the I-1 district,
23 the special land uses section has a catchall. It
24 lists a number of principal permitted uses that
1 wouldn't require the use variance, would require
2 special land use approval from the Planning
3 Commission. And, actually, there's 15 or 16 --
4 15 of them that are listed, and then the
5 catchall, it says other uses of a similar and no
6 more objectionable character than the above uses.
7 The list is on page 3227 of the ordinance.
8 And I guess I just want to make
9 sure that before the board makes a motion that
10 you're aware of sort of the two different ways
11 you can view this: One is, does the proponent
12 meet that pretty high burden for a use variance;
13 or, two, based upon what she's described here,
14 does the board believe that it could possibly fit
15 into the catchall, and if -- and if it did, then
16 the proponent wouldn't be done. It would be a
17 Planning Commission issue. They haven't been to
18 the Planning Commission. Nobody's looked at the
19 layout of the site or anything like that.
20 I just wanted to make sure that the
21 board was familiar with the two ways to look at
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, clearly,
24 it's not a use variance because something else
1 can go on there, so it's the other, which the
2 applicant has already pointed out.
3 MR. SCHULTZ: She did.
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes. And that
5 would be a special-
6 MR. SCHULTZ: (Interposing) What
7 it would be is an interpretation by the board
8 based upon the facts that are presented tonight
9 in her presentation that, in your opinion, she
10 fits -- the proponent fits within the catchall.
11 That would be the only motion you would make
12 if -- and I'm kind of counting heads and seeing
13 where it's going. And then it would fall to the
14 proponent to go back to the Planning Commission
15 and say now okay, the Planning Department was
16 essentially overruled by the Zoning Board of
17 Appeals and now this is before you as a use
18 that's permitted on special land use and here is
19 my case for getting a special land use.
20 MEMBER BRENNAN: But it's Planning
21 that issues that.
22 MR. SCHULTZ: Planning Commission
23 would issue that. So that's the other
24 alternative to a use variance.
1 MR. CHAIRMAN: All right. Thank
2 you. Board members?
3 MEMBER GRAY: Go for it, Frank.
4 MS. CHAIRMAN: I thought Sarah was
5 going to do it.
6 MR. SCHULTZ: Literally, I think it
7 would simply be a motion that the board
8 interprets Section 1902, catchall provision.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: All right. With
10 respect to Case 03-065, I would move that
11 petitioner's variance request be approved as we
12 find and have determined that it's our impression
13 and our interpretation that she meets the spirit
14 of section 1902.
15 MR. SCHULTZ: Sub section 16.
16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Subsection 16.
17 And we would like to have continued jurisdiction,
18 we'd like to invite petitioner back in a year and
20 MR. SCHULTZ: (Interposing)
21 Wouldn't really be able to do that.
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: The only thing we're
23 doing at this point is a determination -- is an
1 MR. SCHULTZ: That would fall to
2 the Commission, if they decided to do that.
3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. So I said
5 MEMBER GRAY: Second.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: I hate to play
7 devil's advocate here, but I have a question.
8 MR. SCHULTZ: Sure.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Are we actually
10 approving the use variance.
11 MR. SCHULTZ: No, you're not.
12 MS. CHAIRMAN: We need to change
13 the verbiage.
14 MR. SCHULTZ: If the motion just
15 said the interpretation -- that the board's
16 interpretation is that it falls within the broad
17 exception, section 16 of 1902, that would take
18 care of it.
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Just as long as
20 we're clear on that.
21 MR. SCHULTZ: Sure.
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. We have
23 a motion-
24 MR. SAVEN: (Interposing) Is the
1 applicant aware of what she needs to do?
2 MS. BRENNAN: I think that I'm not
3 getting a use variance. I'm just permitted in
4 the written rules as they stand, or is that not
6 MR. SCHULTZ: Permitted subject to
7 special approval -- special land use approval by
8 the Planning Commission.
9 MR. SAVEN: So you're falling
10 within that I-1 district.
11 MS. BRENNAN: So now I must go to
12 Planning Commission.
13 MR. SAVEN: That's correct.
14 MS. BRENNAN: All right, thank you.
15 MR. SCHULTZ: If it passes.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now we have a
17 motion and a second. Is there any further
18 discussion on the motion?
19 (No further discussion.)
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
21 please, call the roll.
22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
24 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
1 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
2 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
3 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
4 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
5 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
6 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
7 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
8 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
9 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Your
11 interpretation has been granted. Please see the
12 Planning Department to go to in front of the
13 Planning Commission.
14 MS. BRENNAN: Thank you.
16 CASE NUMBER 03-066
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Our next case,
18 03-066, filed by Kathleen Boyce at 24576 LeBost.
19 Kathleen is requesting a five-foot rear yard
20 setback and the construction of a screened porch
21 enclosure on the existing deck.
22 Are you Kathleen?
23 MS. BOYCE: I'm Kathleen Boyce, and
24 I do live at 24576 LeBost.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Could you raise your
2 right hand for me, please, and be sworn in by our
4 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
5 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding
6 Case 03-066?
7 MS. BOYCE: Yes, sir.
8 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you. Go
10 MS. BOYCE: I currently purchased a
11 new residence, a home, in Willowbrook Farms. The
12 home came without a constructed porch at the back
13 of the home, which I was aware of. I, however,
14 was not aware of any real restrictions that would
15 apply or be applicable to me in a current city
16 that I'm living in that would restrict or,
17 perhaps, be limited by the irregular shape of my
19 I wanted to construct a porch that
20 was screened and covered, and I had planned to do
21 that at the point in time that I purchased the
22 residence, and I really wasn't advised in any
23 fashion that there would be a restriction or a
24 possible problem, because I do have a very
1 unusually shaped lot.
2 I sit to the back of a cul-de-sac,
3 and a portion of my yard is smaller than -- on
4 the right side of my lot than on the left side of
5 my lot.
6 The proposed porch that I wanted to
7 build does interfere with the current zoning
8 restriction, and it's in violation by
9 approximately five feet. It's -- yeah, five
10 feet. It's a little bit less than that, but
11 about five feet.
12 I was advised that I can construct
13 a porch without it being screened; however, I
14 have a special needs child who really cannot take
15 full advantage of the yard if she has to sit in a
16 direct-sunlight type of situation. She's been
17 sick all of her life, and she currently has a
18 metal plate in her head, and sitting in the head
19 is just -- one, it's unhealthy, but more
20 importantly creates a headache for this child.
21 So I have two needs here. I need
22 to construct a back porch that will allow us to
23 fully use or enjoy our property as we intended,
24 but I also have a health concern in my home.
1 So I'm respectfully requesting a
2 zoning variance so that I can construct a porch
3 that is screened and is covered so we can enjoy
4 our backyard as a family.
5 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank
6 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes
7 to speak on behalf of this case?
8 (No response.)
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there
10 were 28 notices sent; seven approvals. There was
11 a petition sent in with seven signatures. I'm
12 not going to read all the names. They're part of
13 the record.
14 Building department?
15 MR. SAVEN: Only that the applicant
16 is correct, the property is unusual in shape. If
17 you take a look at where the existing deck is, or
18 where that porch area is now, you're looking at
19 more than adequate setback requirement. As you
20 move out to the side of the deck, you'll see it
21 starts to infringe upon the setback requirement.
22 As indicated, once the deck takes
23 on a screened enclosure, it means that it has to
24 follow current regulations (inaudible) with
1 existing structure or building.
2 MEMBER REINKE: It's only the forms
3 that are affected?
4 MR. SAVEN: Basically.
5 MEMBER GATT: Are my eyes bad? Is
6 there a deck there now?
7 MS. BOYCE: No, there is not. It
8 is a new constructed home.
9 MEMBER GATT: I was there a few
10 days ago, and the sheet here says you're building
11 onto an existing deck, and I talked to your
12 landscaper actually, and I just -- I looked at
13 the address 12 times to make sure I was in the
14 right place.
15 MS. BOYCE: Oh, I'm sorry for that.
16 No. I requested a building permit so I can build
17 this all at one time, and I was initially
18 rejected for that building permit and that's what
19 prompted this visit to the Zoning Board.
20 MEMBER GATT: So the way I
21 understand it, your hardship then is that the lot
22 is configured in an odd manner?
23 MS. BOYCE: Correct.
24 MEMBER GATT: Nobody -- I assume
1 you bought the home from Singh?
2 MS. BOYCE: Yes, I did.
3 MEMBER GATT: And they didn't tell
4 you -- did you ask?
5 MS. BOYCE: They did not tell -- I
6 mentioned that I was going to be constructing a
7 enclosed porch. At that point in time nobody
8 indicated to me that there would be any type of a
9 lot restriction.
10 And I -- and the reason I brought
11 up the deck, or the enclosed porch, was because
12 it is such an odd shaped lot.
13 MEMBER GATT: Of course, any
14 municipality would have restrictions.
15 MS. BOYCE: I'm fully aware of
16 that. And I guess I do want to be a good
17 neighbor in Novi. That's not my intention, to be
18 a bad neighbor. That's one of the reasons I went
19 and spoke to every single person who can view my
20 property and requested permission from them,
21 because I do not want to have a neighborly
22 problem in a -- you know, in my new home.
23 MEMBER GATT: I think you have a
24 beautiful home, and your landscaping is just
2 MS. BOYCE: Thank you.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Brennan?
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Just for the
5 record, or for anybody who's watching, we do have
6 approval from the Willowbrook Farms homeowners
7 association as well.
8 We grant variances based on
9 hardships. If there was somebody that's
10 presented a hardship case tonight, I think we
11 just heard it.
12 MEMBER GRAY: Madam Chair?
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Gray.
14 MEMBER GRAY: I think if the lot
15 was a standard lot we wouldn't be having this
16 discussion, and so even if there is a hardship, I
17 think lot configuration prevails, and I would be
18 willing to move that in the matter of Case
19 03-066, that the variance be granted due to the
20 lot configuration and that it would probably
21 encroach no more into the setbacks if it were an
22 open deck.
23 MEMBER REINKE: Support.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: We have a motion and
1 support. Any further discussion on the motion?
2 (No further discussion.)
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
4 would you please call the roll.
5 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
6 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
7 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
8 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
9 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
10 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
11 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
12 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
14 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
16 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Miss Boyce, you have
18 your variance.
19 MS. BOYCE: Thank you very much.
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Please see the
21 building department.
22 MS. BOYCE: I just go to the
23 building department at this point to get my
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: You can ask for that
2 gentleman right there.
3 MR. SAVEN: It may take a little
4 while to get it, but yes.
5 MS. BOYCE: Thank you very much.
7 CASE NUMBER 03-067
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's go to our
9 next case, 03-067, filed by Teddy Lee of
10 26075 Lanny's Road. Mr. Lee is requesting two
11 variances for the construction of a detached
13 Good evening. Are you Mr. Lee?
14 Would you raise your right hand, please, and be
15 sworn in by our secretary.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
17 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
19 MR. LEE: Yes.
20 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
21 MR. LEE: Zoning Board of Appeals,
22 I have a need for an additional garage. I have
23 three cars, and two are in the driveway all the
24 time. I have a daughter in her teen years, and
1 we'll have additional car when she's of driveable
2 age, lack of storage space. I have a lawn mower,
3 garden tools, you know, push mower, bicycles,
4 pressure washer. This all goes in the garage.
5 The -- to meet the size of the
6 square footage allowed will only allow me to
7 build a 16 by 15 garage. I have a SUV and a van,
8 and I just need a decent size 24 by 24 garage.
9 It's also nice in wintertime not to have to
10 scrape the ice off the car, sub zero weather,
11 so the need is for the garage.
12 As far as the detached building,
13 there is a playhouse for my daughter. The
14 neighborhood kids, the girls, come play. It's
15 strictly a playhouse. It helps me to keep an eye
16 on her, place for her friends to hang out. Also
17 helps her to create happy childhood memories.
18 That's what this other detached structure is.
19 This 24 by 24 garage has the
20 support and approval of every business on
21 Lanny's Road, as well as the neighbors, and the
22 neighbors behind me. Everyone has signed a
23 petition of approval and strongly support it,
24 tell me to go for it, there's no objection.
1 And this petition has been
2 submitted to the board here.
3 This garage will help me get the
4 car out of the driveway. It will make -- improve
5 the neighborhood appearance.
6 Also, this garage, you can't see it
7 from approach on either side of Lanny's Road
8 because you have a fence on one side, then you
9 have my house on the other side. The only time
10 you can see the garage is you drive by and turn
11 your head for a few minutes to see it as you look
12 up the driveway, so it's really out of sight.
13 So I'm requesting the Board of
14 Appeals to approve this variance -- these two
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right, thank
17 you. Is there anyone in the audience that wishes
18 to make any comment in regards to this case?
19 (No response.)
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there
21 were 20 notices sent, and according to this, 20
22 approvals. There's a four-page petition in the
23 file. Mr. And Mrs. Price were so happy about
24 this they signed it twice. They really want to
1 see it approved.
2 MR. LEE: I have great neighbors,
3 and businesses, too, because I live right on the
4 border of the businesses.
5 MS. CHAIRMAN: Whoever draw this up
6 did a nice job. I have to tell the board members
7 that there is a petition in here for businesses
8 separating from residents and business, and the
9 businesses approve it as well.
10 Building department?
11 MR. SAVEN: Only just to point out
12 that the property is a little bit larger than the
13 normal R-4 zoning district that we deal with.
14 And also that he indicated there is
15 a playhouse there. We deal with that extra
16 structure on a property, we're dealing with
17 something less than 41,000, and this is 20,000
18 square foot property. It's pretty close to that
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you. Board
22 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I understand
23 the petitioner's needs and wants. I have a
24 problem with the additional structure because he
1 makes reference in his petition that he needs the
2 garage because his daughter is going to be
3 driving in a few years. Well, it's going to be
4 the point that she's not utilizing the playhouse
5 and we got another structure there, which I have
6 a problem in approving your garage and keeping
7 that structure. That's my point of view.
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any other comments?
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: That leads to a
10 good point. Do you want to take that playhouse
11 down for the garage?
12 MR. LEE: Well, the playhouse
13 actually was a doghouse that they converted into
14 a playhouse. It is out of site, and you really
15 can't see it from anywhere.
16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, we're just
17 trying to minimize the extent of variance when we
18 have an opportunity. That's why the question was
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: I, unfortunately,
21 support Mr. Reinke's -- Member Reinke's comments
22 as well, and I was going the same way, that if
23 you were interested in removing the playhouse
24 then I was interested in looking at the garage.
1 Less variances are better.
2 This is a -- this is not -- I can't
3 see the need for the playhouse with the garage.
4 And it's because of all of that -- when you look
5 at the overall picture, that's something that I
6 think you heard three members now, you may want
7 to take that into consideration.
8 MR. LEE: Would the board -- when
9 the -- she's 12, and when she's of driveable age,
10 I would take it down, in four or five years.
11 MEMBER REINKE: Might be four or
12 five years before I approve your garage going up.
13 MEMBER BAUER: That's right.
14 MR. LEE: I guess I'm caught in
15 between depriving her of the memories and being
16 somewhere to play and having a garage I guess.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
18 MEMBER BRENNAN: Maybe I'll word it
19 another way for Mr. Lee.
20 Again, we approve variances based
21 on hardship, and you've made a case, maybe not
22 compelling, but your case for additional -- for
23 an additional garage is for storage because of
24 the things you have. That would be considered a
1 hardship, although one may argue how compelling
2 of a hardship.
3 But certainly, a secondary building
4 for the purpose of somebody playing, I don't know
5 if that is a hardship, and I'm -- I mean, we're
6 tasked with issuing variances when there's
7 hardship presented.
8 MR. LEE: I've been told that -- I
9 don't know, I have not looked into it -- that
10 there are other buildings in Novi with detached
11 playhouses. I guess that's a separate -- not
12 considered a separate structure. I don't know if
13 that's valid or not, but if there was a case
14 found where there is a playhouse that's been
15 lenient on, would the board accept that?
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Well, when we
17 review cases we review them on their individual
18 merit, based on your situation. We don't tie in
19 other cases to make or break your case so to
20 speak. We're looking at what's in front of us,
21 your lot size -- the request and the sizes that
22 you're requesting, okay, the square footage.
23 And, again, as Member Brennan so
24 eloquently put it, we need to determine the
1 hardship, okay.
2 And so it's not a matter of, you
3 know, what was done in the past or what was done
4 on a different address. It's what's got to be
5 done at this address and what we have to look at,
7 And our first question as board
8 members is can there be a lesser variance. In
9 looking at this request, my answer is yes, I
10 think there can.
11 So either you need to go back,
12 perhaps table this, look at your garage, do
13 something, but as it stands now I don't think
14 you're getting the full support of the board
16 So we can -- I'm going to look to
17 my elders for support here. Is there-
18 MEMBER REINKE: Well, I think-
19 MEMBER BRENNAN: (Interposing)
20 It's Mr. Lee's call.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: I don't know if he
22 wants to table it or if we're going to go with a
23 denial? That's what I'm --
24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Or whether he's-
1 MEMBER GATT: (Interposing) To
2 change it.
3 MEMBER BRENNAN: Or if he's ready
4 to modify his variance request for the garage and
5 the elimination of this second facility.
6 MR. LEE: Could I ask question for
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
9 MR. LEE: There's two variances
10 here. Is, I guess, the board saying that
11 exceeding the square footage of 850 is allowable
12 but it's the extra structure that is the
13 difficulty here?
14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
15 MR. LEE: If this garage was
16 attached to the main house so that I no longer
17 have a de -- two detached buildings, is that
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. I don't
20 -- can you repeat the question for me, please.
21 MR. LEE: This garage not having
22 been built yet, if I made it attached to the
23 house so it's not -- no a longer detached
24 structure, so the only detached structure is the
1 playhouse, is that acceptable?
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would have to
3 refer you to the building department.
4 MR. SAVEN: It's still over 850
5 square feet.
6 MEMBER REINKE: Still in excess of
7 the square footage requested for garage space.
8 And I cannot support the additional
9 garage space and have that other building sit
10 there. Now, to me, it's either one or the other.
11 MEMBER GRAY: Even though the
12 garage with the house now is attached, we still
13 calculate it as a separate -- it's not living
14 space. It's a separate space for garage, so
15 you're over the square footage allowed,
16 significantly, so you have to reduce that.
17 And what are you willing to do to
18 reduce it? Are you willing to give up the
19 playhouse is basically where I think the spirit
20 of this board is tonight. The garage or the
22 And you can choose to table it and
23 come back next month. Take it, talk it over and
24 -- you can choose that option. We don't take any
1 action if you want to table it and bring it back
2 next month after you've had time to discuss it.
3 MR. LEE: I probably would table it
4 for next month because --
5 MS. CHAIRMAN: That's fine.
6 MR. LEE: So the choice is either
7 the playhouse or the garage. The garage cannot
8 be -- the new garage cannot be attached and still
9 exceed the square footage.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: That's correct.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Whether it's
12 attached or not doesn't matter is what it comes
13 down to.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. So I just
15 want a clarification. You're going to table it
16 until next month then and come back before us
17 with a different plan?
18 MR. LEE: Yes. I'm going to think
19 about it I guess.
20 MEMBER GRAY: If you have any
21 questions, you can certainly talk to the building
22 department and they may answer any questions you
23 may have. Correct, Mr. Saven?
24 MR. SAVEN: Well, I think from the
1 point that I'm picking up here, and correct me if
2 I'm wrong, we know that if he opted to add the
3 garage onto the existing house he would still
4 have that square footage requirement, and
5 anything that's excess of the 850 square foot for
6 the sum total of all accessory structures, and
7 that would include his playhouse that's in the
8 back, so he would still be there for that number
9 but he would eliminate one of the variances.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.
11 MR. SAVEN: Okay. The other aspect
12 is that, in helping move things along, and I'm
13 sure he's going to ask me the question, what
14 happens if he reduces the size of the garage,
15 instead of 24 by 24 reducing that down by a
17 MEMBER REINKE: If it goes under
18 850 feet, I don't have a problem.
19 MR. SAVEN: There you go.
20 MR. LEE: So you say -- I'm sorry.
21 Can I ask for clarification?
22 MR. SAVEN: Sure, go ahead.
23 MR. LEE: You're saying that as far
24 as -- if I reduce the -- this 24 by 24 garage
1 down to a one-car garage to fit the 850 square
2 feet, you say that is acceptable?
3 MEMBER REINKE: What I'm saying is
4 that if you need any kind of variance for your
5 total garage space, my opinion, the playhouse has
6 to go.
7 MR. LEE: Okay. I guess there's
8 two variances here that -- I'm confused. The one
9 is the number of structures and the other is the
10 total square footage.
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.
12 MR. LEE: Now, if I eliminate the
13 one structure, you're saying although the garage
14 might exceed the total square footage, 20 by 24,
15 that is acceptable so long as that is the only
16 detached building. And then the other
17 alternative I have is that if I decide to -- you
18 said only -- the fewer the variance the better,
19 so now if I decide to make this garage smaller,
20 18 by 15, whatever it takes to just not exceed
21 the 850 square foot, then it's acceptable because
22 now I only have one -- I still have a variance of
23 two buildings but that is acceptable?
24 MEMBER REINKE: I'm not going to
1 say that.
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Right.
3 MEMBER REINKE: Because I'm not
4 going to say something that I'm going to totally
5 agree with until I have it in front of me. My
6 opinion is that if you need a variance request --
7 I'm opposed to the additional structure. If
8 you're going to have a structure that's a garage,
9 I'm opposed to keeping the playhouse. That's one
10 person's point of view in looking at this case.
11 MR. LEE: Even smaller garage to
12 meet the size?
13 MEMBER REINKE: Right.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Do you have any
15 further questions?
16 MR. LEE: No.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Then at this time
18 the board will table Case Number 03-067 until the
19 September meeting.
20 All those in favor?
21 (Vote taken.)
22 MEMBER BRENNAN: Madam Chair, can I
23 ask that Mr. Lee be put first on the agenda so he
24 can be here at 7:30 and we'll take care of you
2 MR. LEE: Okay.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
5 CASE NUMBER 03-068
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Let's call Case
7 Number 03-068 filed by Jeffrey DeFoe of
8 44115 Grand River Avenue.
9 Mr. DeFoe.
10 MR. DeFOE: Good evening, Mayor.
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Good evening. He's
12 requesting -- no, no. I'm just the Chairwoman.
13 That's Mr. Clark.
14 He's -- you're requesting two
15 variances this evening, and if you would like to
16 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our
18 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
19 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
21 MR. DeFOE: Yes, I do.
22 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: If you would like to
24 tell us a little bit about your-
1 MR. DeFOE: (Interposing) Sure
2 thing. We're proposing to put an addition on the
3 side of the house. The problem we have is the
4 way our site plan -- the way the land actually
5 runs. It actually -- we have an angled lot.
6 It's a corner lot. With that, we're proposing to
7 put a 20 by 20 addition on it. One corner of it
8 goes only 33 feet. On the other side, the very
9 far end, the east end of the house, that actually
10 goes at roughly about thirty-six-and-a-half feet,
11 so it clearly passes on one side, but the other
12 corner it doesn't exceed the 35 minimum for the
14 The other variance is for where the
15 garage is, and there is actually a nine foot. I
16 didn't have the measurement at the time. There's
17 a nine foot variance between where the garage
18 would be and where the addition would lie.
19 So with that, those are the two
20 areas that I'm looking to have this variance for.
21 The reasoning behind that actually
22 is, to make a long story short, I lost -- I lost
23 my job, my wife lost our job. We moved in with
24 our in-laws, our parents. So now instead of
1 having one family in the house, we have two.
2 With that, it's only about fourteen hundred fifty
3 square foot in the house, way too small for six
4 people to live and reside in one home.
5 So what we're proposing for is the
6 addition of a family room, a larger family room,
7 and also a bedroom to it, and that's what the
8 additional space is for.
9 Really, with that, that is what I'm
10 here tonight for.
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there
12 anyone in the audience that would like to make
13 any comments in regard to this case?
14 (No response.)
15 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, there
16 were 16 notices sent; no approvals, no
18 Building department?
19 MR. SAVEN: I just want to go back
20 over this issue about the distance between the
21 garage and the addition, that space. How much is
23 MR. DeFOE: Nine feet of space
24 there. There's actually nine feet of space.
1 MEMBER BRENNAN: So the variance
2 request is for one foot, not nine?
3 MR. DeFOE: Yeah. That was -- see,
4 the problem -- I had actually got a call back
5 because I put the wrong numbers down on the paper
6 when I filled out my stuff last month.
7 MR. SAVEN: That makes me feel a
8 little bit better.
9 MR. DeFOE: It's not nine feet,
10 just one foot.
11 MS. MARCHIONI: I had done that
12 just because we didn't know the distance.
13 MR. DeFOE: You called and I wasn't
15 MEMBER REINKE: I agree with that.
16 I think that's a lot better.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
18 Member Brennan.
19 MEMBER BRENNAN: These are very,
20 very minimal requests from this petitioner, both
21 the setback on one corner and the one foot
22 separation, and I think that there's sufficient
23 hardship presented. I could support the
1 MEMBER REINKE: Is that a motion,
3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I will make that
4 motion. With respect to Case 03-068, I would
5 move that the petitioner's request be granted for
6 purpose of lot configuration and the minimal
7 affects of the variance.
8 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Motion's been made
10 and approved -- or seconded, I'm sorry. Is there
11 any further discussion on the motion?
12 (No further discussion.)
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
14 please call the roll.
15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
16 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
18 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
20 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
22 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
24 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
1 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
2 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, sir. Please
4 see the building department. Good luck to you.
5 MR. DeFOE: Thank you very much.
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
8 CASE NUMBER 03-069
9 MS. CHAIRMAN: Case Number 070 --
10 I'm sorry. 03-070 filed by John Greulich.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think you
12 skipped one, case eight.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: I'm sorry. Oh, I
14 did. I crossed it off. I apologize.
15 03-069 filed by Mark Jacoby
16 New Horizons at 41108 Vincenti Court.
17 MR. JACOBY: Good evening.
18 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Jacoby, good
19 evening. Would you raise your right hand and
20 please be sworn in by our secretary.
21 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
22 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
24 MR. JACOBY: Yes, I do.
1 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir.
2 MR. JACOBY: Good evening. My name
3 is Mark Jacoby. I am the manager for
4 New Horizons Rehabilitation Services on
5 Vincenti Court. We provide services and programs
6 for a hundred and sixty individuals on a daily
7 basis with a very wide variety of disabilities
8 and functioning levels.
9 One of the primary things that we
10 provide is contract work. We provide -- they
11 come and they earn a paycheck, they learn a
12 vocational skill, and much of that work that we
13 provide them with is automotive assembly work for
14 companies such as Johnson Controls, Lear
15 Corporation, Visteon.
16 And I don't know if any of you work
17 with the automotive industry, while they don't
18 like to store finished goods at their place, they
19 don't have any problem having our suppliers store
20 all of the finished goods. So there's a lot of
21 time when we have a lot of excess storage sitting
22 at our shop.
23 So time line wise, unfortunately,
24 back in September of 1999 we received a violation
1 for storing items outside. In January of 2000,
2 Kelly Wanton (ph), who was the former manager,
3 received a one-year supervised variance to build
4 an outdoor fenced-in storage unit.
5 That storage unit was built in
6 March of 2000. It's a thirteen foot by fourteen
7 foot by six foot tall, completely fenced-in so
8 you can't see what's inside there.
9 I reappeared before the board on
10 January 5th of 2001 and was granted an additional
11 two-year variance onto that.
12 What I'm before you tonight
13 requesting is a permanent variance on that for
14 basically three reasons: Number one, it
15 continues to assist us in providing a safe
16 environment because it allows us extra storage
17 when we get backed up storing all of the
18 automotive companies parts. I guess the big one
19 is that since it was built in March of 2000,
20 there have been no further violations and no
21 further complaints against us. And then third
22 one is that when I was here in January of 2001,
23 it was actually suggested by one of the board
24 members that we were granted a permanent variance
1 at that time, but we agreed on the two-year
2 variance just to see and make sure that
3 everything was flying clear and free, and since
4 it has, again I'm respectfully requesting a
5 permanent variance, that we be allowed to keep
6 that structure there.
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. Is
8 there anyone in the audience that wishes to make
9 any comments in regards to this case?
10 (No response.)
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: There were 16
12 notices sent; no approvals, no objection.
13 Building department?
14 MR. SAVEN: No comment. Excuse me.
15 I do have a comment.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right.
17 MR. SAVEN: If the board wishes to
18 grant this for -- if the board wishes to grant
19 this variance, it would be for this person or
20 applicant only.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you.
22 Member Brennan.
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Well, I'm the one
24 that said if your nose is clean come back and
1 we'll give you a permanent variance, and I'm
2 prepared to do that with the recommendation that
3 it would be granted for your business only.
4 And I'll go on record again. I
5 think you guys are providing an outstanding
6 service for people that need this, and I applaud
8 MR. JACOBY: Thank you very much.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: In Case -- I'm
10 sorry. Tom?
11 MR. SCHULTZ: Madam Chair, one
12 other question, because it is a temporary
13 structure, and just throw out there for the
14 board's consideration, the idea that if it's
15 going to be a permanent variance, that there be
16 an obligation for maintaining, structurally sound
17 and in the condition that it's in now so that --
18 you hate to have it deteriorate and us not have a
19 hook back into it, so that it be maintained in a
20 structurally sound manner.
21 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
22 MR. JACOBY: Can I just say, with
23 reference to that, if I may?
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes.
1 MR. JACOBY: While it may be stated
2 as temporary, that thing's pretty solidly into
3 the ground. I mean, it was given solid footers.
4 It's -- it would cost us a great deal of money to
5 pull out a temporary storage unit. It is solidly
6 in there. Although I do agree, we will keep an
7 eye on it and maintain the quality and the
8 appearance of it as well. We will do that.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. With
10 respect to Case 03-069, I would move that the
11 petitioner's request for a permanent variance be
12 granted because he lived up to his obligations.
13 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: There's been a
15 motion and second. Any further discussion on the
17 MEMBER BRENNAN: We did have
18 discussion with respect to that it's granted to
19 this petitioner only and the facility will be
21 MR. SCHULTZ: Thank you.
22 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's my addendum
23 to my motion.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: It's been motioned,
1 seconded, and addendumed. Any further
3 MS. MARCHIONI: Continuing
5 MEMBER BAUER: No.
6 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't think so,
8 MS. MARCHIONI: No, okay.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think we can
10 waive that.
11 MS. MARCHIONI: Okay.
12 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
13 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
14 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
15 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
16 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
17 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
18 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
19 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
20 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
21 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
22 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
23 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variance has
1 been granted. Please see the building
3 MR. JACOBY: Thank you, and I thank
4 the board very much.
6 CASE NUMBER 03-070
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Now I can
8 call your case. Case 03-070 filed by
9 John Greulich of 24800 Willowbrook Drive.
10 I tried to get you a cut ahead.
11 I'm sorry. Good evening. Are you Mr. Greulich?
12 MR. GREULICH: Yes, I am.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would you like to
14 raise your right hand for our secretary to be
15 sworn in, please.
16 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
17 swear or affirm to tell the truth in Case 03-070?
18 MR. GREULICH: Yes, sir.
19 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you, sir. Go
21 MR. GREULICH: Okay. We're
22 planning to put an addition onto our existing
23 home. We've been living there for ten years now.
24 We looked at the pie shaped lot that our house is
1 presently on, and it's kind of on an irregular
3 And the plan that we drew up takes
4 one -- the back right corner over the allowable
5 limit by two foot three inches.
6 And we looked at a couple of other
7 ideas, maybe moving out to the rear in some
8 fashion, but that would have caused us to have to
9 move a significant weight bearing beam and
10 destroy the deck that's presently on there, which
11 would have been much more costly.
12 We looked at moving forward in the
13 right. That would esthetically take the roof
14 lines and alter that.
15 So the most reasonable, we felt,
16 and economical plan is the one that we have
17 before you, and asking for your consideration to
18 approve our present plan.
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Is there
20 anyone else in the audience that wishes to make a
22 (No comment.)
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: There were 25
24 notices sent; three approvals. There's a letter
1 from Bernard and Maria Sear on Willowbrook, and
2 Mark and Jan Less at 24770 Willowbrook, and I
3 don't know if this is a -- this is also an
4 approval letter from Beachtree Development that
5 owns the build -- office building located
6 northwest of Mr. Greulich's residence, and they
7 have no objections with the granting of this
9 Building department?
10 MR. SAVEN: Basically, it's what
11 the applicant had indicated. This is an unusual
12 piece of property.
13 If you take a look at the rear of
14 the property, there is a 20 foot easement off the
15 rear. This is not infringing upon that easement.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
17 MEMBER GATT: Madam Chair, I just
18 want to say I visited your home. It's a gorgeous
19 home, it's a densely wood backyard, it's on a
20 court, and I don't see any problem with this
21 variance request because of the lot
23 MEMBER REINKE: Was that a motion?
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: Is that a motion?
1 MEMBER GATT: It can be a motion.
2 In Case Number 03-070, I would move that the
3 variance be granted of two feet three inches
4 because of the lot configuration on that piece of
6 MEMBER BAUER: Second the motion.
7 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Motion's been
8 made and seconded. Any further discussion on the
10 (No further discussion.)
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
12 would you please call the roll.
13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
14 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
16 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
18 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
20 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
24 MEMBER REINKE: Yes.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variance has
2 been approved. Please see the building
4 MR. GREULICH: If I may, I'd like
5 to thank Sarah Marchioni for her cooperation in
6 helping get here to this -- help on getting us on
7 this meeting agenda.
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Would the board
9 entertain a five-minute break at this point?
10 (A short recess was taken.)
12 CASE NUMBER 03-071
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: We'll call the
14 meeting back to order and call Case Number 03-071
15 filed by James Alt for Baja Fresh Mexican Grille.
16 Mr. Alt, are you an attorney?
17 MR. ALT: No, I'm an architect.
18 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Would you
19 raise your right hand and be sworn in by our
20 secretary, please.
21 MR. ALT: I just dress like an
23 MEMBER BAUER: Do you solemnly
24 swear or affirm to tell the truth regarding Case
2 MR. ALT: I do.
3 MEMBER BAUER: Thank you.
4 MR. ALT: In the 25 years or so
5 I've been doing this, as I was approaching the
6 bench, the board, have everyone get up and walk
7 out of the room. Kind of set me back a moment.
8 And let me just say that we
9 approach you with the deepest respect regardless
10 of the number of variances that we've requested,
11 and we don't wish to imply anything by that. It
12 just kind of turned out that way. And I'm fully
13 aware of the challenges that I face before you
14 this evening.
15 Let me take just a moment and just
16 give you a nickle's worth, if you don't mind, of
17 what Baja Fresh Mexican Grille is, because many
18 of your may not be aware of what it is. It is a
19 quick, casual, not fast food, sit-down
20 restaurant. You walk in, place an order at a
21 counter, go sit down. In about five to eight
22 minutes later they call your order, and the thing
23 that, from personal experience, makes it
24 completely unique, I believe, is it's stunningly
1 fresh. There are no freezers, can openers,
2 microwaves, no lard or MSG used in any of the
3 preparation of their food items, and it really
4 does separate them, we think, from the balance of
5 that segment.
6 The restaurant seats anywhere from
7 90 to a hundred and twenty persons. We have a
8 TUV (ph) application hearing set for tomorrow
9 requesting outside seating.
10 The special challenge that we face
11 tonight has to do with the fact that -- and I've
12 been blessed to have been given the opportunity
13 to practice in Novi, albeit from quite a distance
14 in Ohio, for about the last 15 years because I
15 was involved in doing the Vic Tanny now Bally
16 Total Fitness, and I've done numerous remodels to
17 it at Novi Town Center, and I was -- I've been
18 allowed to know in the Town Center board meetings
19 that we had way back then in the mid '80s that
20 this building was originally intended as a
21 multi-tenant structure with many -- with many
22 tenants, with numerous accesses, including under
23 the clock tower.
24 We think we face a unique situation
1 there that merits your consideration for one or
2 two or three or more variances.
3 To begin with, the restaurant has
4 wonderful exposure. The building will have
5 wonderful exposure, but the building basically
6 turns its back on Crescent and faces south into a
7 parking lot. Therein lies a challenge. If it
8 made sense, we would relocate the front door so
9 that it faced Crescent and there would be no need
10 to address -- at least not on those merits,
11 address you about a variance.
12 In addition to that, we have what
13 we think is just a basic health and welfare and
14 traffic safety issue. I'm not trying to be
15 disingenuous, but it really does make sense that
16 we try to let the public know where we are and
17 that they not have to maybe circle our building
18 and other buildings in Novi Town Center when we
19 can give them a little bit better chance to know
20 where we're located if we were able to have
21 signage on the Crescent side of the building.
22 I'm hopeful that we'll be able to
23 work out a compromise of some kind that might
24 afford us the opportunity to have some additional
2 Last, let me say that with the sign
3 band geometry what it is, and you had a -- I'm
4 pretty sure you've had an opportunity to take a
5 look at the building, we're not actually taking
6 advantage of the full 40 square feet that the
7 ordinance would allow us to have. We're in the
8 30s, in the low 30s, for that one sign. That
9 would be our primary tenant identifier located
10 approximately over the front door facing south
11 into the parking lot.
12 That's it.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay, thank you. I
14 can look out there and see that there's no one in
15 the audiences that wishes to make any comment.
16 There were forty-seven notices
17 sent; no approvals, no objections.
18 Building department?
19 MR. SAVEN: No comment, ma'am.
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
21 Member Brennan.
22 MEMBER BRENNAN: I was there today
23 and I saw two signs, two mockups, so until I see
24 four mockups, I can't even address this package.
1 MEMBER REINKE: The two -- the one
2 is hanging down.
3 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw the hanging
4 down, and I saw the one on the clock tower. I
5 didn't see anymore than those two.
6 MEMBER GRAY: There's one behind
7 the evergreens.
8 MEMBER REINKE: There's one behind
9 the trees.
10 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's why I
11 didn't see that one.
12 Are all four mockups up?
13 MR. ALT: I think maybe we --
14 forgive me, because I came racing in at the last
15 minute, dumped my luggage at the Windham and came
16 racing right over. I came back and forth on
17 Crescent. I saw the one on the tower and the one
18 on -- facing Crescent that's hidden by the
20 MEMBER BRENNAN: All right. Let's
21 use -- Let's use this. Okay?
22 MR. ALT: Sure.
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw sign number
24 two. That's on the tower.
1 MR. ALT: Yes. That's there.
2 MEMBER BRENNAN: I saw the hanging
3 sign, which is, I think, number four.
4 MR. ALT: Yes, that's right.
5 MEMBER BRENNAN: Which is the one
6 that's behind the trees? Must be number one.
7 MEMBER REINKE: No. I think it's
9 MS. MARCHIONI: Frank, sign one
10 doesn't need a variance.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Pardon?
12 MS. MARCHIONI: Sign one doesn't
13 need a variance.
14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Let's take that
16 MS. MARCHIONI: So there should
17 only be three mockup signs up anyway.
18 MR. ALT: That's where I was headed
19 with that. We didn't want to not open with
20 signage, and we're rocking along here, so we took
21 that off the agenda in the sense that it is --
22 it's a permissible size and location.
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. I retract
24 my initial statement then. Let's talk -- are we
1 at the board portion yet? You said no comments?
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, I did.
3 MR. SAVEN: I said no comments.
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Okay. I do not
5 like that sign on that tower. That's starting to
6 look like a dang bulletin board.
7 This thing's under construction.
8 Why don't you move your front door to the
9 Crescent side?
10 MR. ALT: We actually are placing a
11 required means of egress -- to fulfill our second
12 means of egress requirement, we are putting a
13 door on the Crescent side. It's a bit
14 inconvenient. Parking's all on the south side.
15 There's a walkway that circles the north side of
16 the building, and we've laid out the whole
17 restaurant based upon the front door facing the
18 south. So when you walk in, that's how you see
19 -- first your presented with a menu and so on.
20 MEMBER BRENNAN: But is that for
21 customers to come in from that tower sign?
22 MR. ALT: No, no. That's an egress
23 -- emergency egress only, emergency egress only.
24 As a matter of fact, I think in the
1 package I sent to Sarah Marchioni, I sent a
2 footprint, the actual floor plan of the
3 restaurant, so that we could agree on how to
4 calculate the frontage.
5 It's on an eight-and-a-half by
6 eleven. I'd be happy to hand you a copy of that.
7 And it does show where the front door is and
8 where that egress door is.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I sure don't like
10 that sign on the tower. That was my only
12 MEMBER BAUER: I don't care for it
14 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's all I have
15 to say. Thanks.
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
17 Everybody's looking -- trying get their north and
18 south and east and west focused here.
19 Any other comments?
20 MEMBER BRENNAN: One other point.
21 In the Town Center, as I recall, there are a
22 number of signs hanging like number four is, a
23 relatively small sign. That's where the sidewalk
24 is where people are going in and out, so I don't
1 have a problem with four. And sign number three
2 is their primary sign. That's their entranceway.
3 And if you have -- sign number one is going to be
4 on Crescent Boulevard, is it not?
5 MR. ALT: Sign number one actually
6 faces the parking lot, sign number three faces
7 the Crescent. I think that's right.
8 MEMBER BRENNAN: Dang, am I all
9 turned around.
10 MR. ALT: I apologize for the plan
11 not being clear.
12 Sign number one does face the
13 parking lot. Sign number two on this plan faces
15 MEMBER GRAY: Is that the one
16 that's behind the trees?
17 MR. ALT: That's the one behind the
19 MEMBER GRAY: Okay.
20 MR. ALT: Three's on the tower and
21 four is hanging over the front door.
22 MS. CHAIRMAN: Four is hanging over
23 the door.
24 MR. ALT: Four is -- yeah. It's an
1 oval hanging over the door, and under the canopy.
2 Number three is that 50 square
3 footer up on the tower.
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: Wherever it is,
5 that's the one I don't like.
6 MR. ALT: Sign number two is
7 actually behind a row of arborvitae, three of
8 which have been cut down over the years because
9 they were either diseased or the utility company
10 complained because they screened a bank of gas
12 And for what it is worth, in
13 conversations that we've had with Mr. Jim Clear,
14 he has expressed his willingness to work with us
15 and allow us to bear the cost, if you permit us
16 to do so, to remove those arborvitae on behalf of
17 replacing them with arborvitae or other approved
18 plantings that would be slightly shorter and
19 continue -- and kept groomed so that we would be
20 able to have a sign band sign facing Crescent as
21 it is presently shown on the building, the banner
22 on the building.
23 So he's basically saying if you say
24 it's okay, it's okay with him, he'll let us cut
1 down the plants that screen that sign facing
2 Crescent and replace it with approved
3 landscaping, City of Novi approved landscaping,
4 in addition to which adding plantings that would
5 complete that row again, because those are
6 16-years-old and they're about 15 feet high and
7 they're starting to show a little wear.
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Bauer?
9 MEMBER BAUER: One thing you do
10 have to get is when we get that all set is a
11 letter from the people that run that place, the
12 Town Center.
13 MR. ALT: Mr. Clear said that he
14 was sending a letter. If that did not occur,
15 I'll be sure to follow right up on that.
16 MS. MARCHIONI: He sent a letter
17 for the outdoor seating but not the signage.
18 MR. ALT: Oh, did he?
19 MS. MARCHIONI: Yeah.
20 MR. ALT: Okay, Sarah. I will go
21 address that immediately. I will take care of
22 that immediately.
23 MEMBER BAUER: Might as well wait
24 until we tell you what (inaudible).
1 MR. ALT: Yeah, right, exactly.
2 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members?
3 Member Reinke.
4 MEMBER REINKE: Granted you need
5 some signage, you need some identification. The
6 one thing that stood out the most to me, and I
7 went around this thing about six times, and on
8 the band of the dome section-
9 MR. ALT: (Interposing) Yes.
10 MEMBER REINKE: -you have a sign
11 there. Where -- what is your direction intention
12 of that sign?
13 MR. ALT: You mean on this drawing
14 or on the banner, the actual banner?
15 MEMBER REINKE: On -- that's on the
16 building, on the end of the above the doors or
18 MR. ALT: There is a sign band
19 sign, yes, facing -- it's almost due south right
20 into the parking lot on the sign band right at
21 the dome. It actually just barrels right there.
22 That's the front door.
23 Our desire was to have a sign
24 there. That's the sign number one which we have
1 not presented for appeal because it's less than
2 the maximum permissible square footage, and the
3 goal of that sign was to say here's the front
4 door. And it's actually where -- on the plan
5 that you have in front of you, it's where arrow
6 number one points.
7 MEMBER BRENNAN: That's the front
8 door, sign number one.
9 MR. ALT: That's the front door,
10 sign number one.
11 The number four that's right next
12 to it is actually oval. It would hang underneath
13 the canopy.
14 MEMBER REINKE: Right, right.
15 MR. ALT: Number two is located --
16 we shifted number two around onto the brick on
17 this -- off that round element and over on the
19 MEMBER REINKE: Two's the one
20 that's behind the trees I thought.
21 MR. ALT: Number two.
22 MEMBER BAUER: When you have these
23 listed as two and four or three to four, if the
24 two was number two sign, that would have helped
2 MR. ALT: I'll work on that.
3 MEMBER REINKE: Number three is on
4 the band of the dome shape section, correct?
5 MR. ALT: Number three is actually
6 the 50 square foot tower sign.
7 MEMBER BRENNAN: On the tower, this
9 MS. MARCHIONI: Jim, do you have
10 the map? Maybe you can put it on the overhead
11 and kind of point it out, what sign's what.
12 MR. ALT: Yes. Right here is sign
13 number three on the site plan, and it is on the
14 base of the tower, 50 square feet.
15 Over here is number one. It would
16 be the sign mounted on the face of the sign band
17 which we're -- which is presently in compliance,
18 less than 40 feet, and identifies the front door.
19 Next to it is number four, which is
20 the oval which would be suspended underneath.
21 And then the one that's a little
22 bit confusing is number two, which is all the way
23 over here, and it's shown on the circular part of
24 the dome, not on the barrel but on the circular
1 part of the dome here. And we moved it at the
2 last minute onto the brick right here.
3 And there is a row of arborvitae
4 right there which, as I said before, were planted
5 as part of the original building, and there are
6 three more arborvitae right in this area right
7 here that were cut down over the years, and they
8 conceal the gas meter bank for the whole
10 And what we're proposing, if you
11 elect to let us put our sign number two there, or
12 some version of sign number two there, the
13 understanding would be that we would present a
14 design for landscaping to the City that would
15 allow us to remove the arborvitaes that are there
16 that are about sixteen feet high -- fifteen feet
17 high, sixteen-years old, are beginning to show
18 their age, and we would put back as much of
19 whatever gennis (ph) and species, caliber, size
20 the City would like, and we would complete the
21 landscaping all the way over into that little
22 corner of the building right there and, once
23 again, conceal the gas meter bank, present a
24 uniform landscape face across that brick wall
1 with our sign on the band above it.
2 If I could -- if it would be all
3 right if I could just kind of speak off the cuff
4 for just a moment on this thing, I'll share with
5 you what I would like to see as the designer.
6 I'd like to see us be able to keep
7 our front door sign, the 32 or so square feet
8 sign, number one. I'd like us to be able to keep
9 our oval hanging sign, number four. I'd like us
10 to be able to have some version of sign number
11 two above those redone arborvitae. And forget
12 the tower.
13 And I think I'm being completely
14 realistic there because I know how challenging
15 getting any approval on that tower sign is going
16 to be, not just before this board but because
17 there's -- from what I understand in
18 conversations with Miss Marchioni, there's
19 actually legislation required to -- for us to
20 gain approval for that because of the previous
21 method by which Boyne Country Sports gained
22 permission to have a sign there, and that the
23 language specifically states there can only be
24 one sign there, and she references that here.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Member Brennan.
2 MEMBER BRENNAN: Boy, you must be a
3 mind reader, because if you had asked me to make
4 a motion, that's exactly what I would have moved.
5 I don't have any problem with your
6 -- obviously with your sign number one. That's
7 your entry to the business. The little oval sign
8 was not overwhelming to me. I think it makes
9 sense to have sign number two, and especially
10 with what you're planning on doing. And as long
11 as you're willing to get rid of that tower sign,
12 I don't have any problem with that amended
14 MEMBER BAUER: I agree.
15 MEMBER REINKE: Madam Chairman?
16 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Member Reinke.
17 MEMBER REINKE: I agree with
18 everything except one. The sign -- and it's just
19 -- I'm thinking out loud in the process that
20 we're going through.
21 The thing that's unique about that
22 building coming up on the north side of it is the
23 end shape with that dome. It draws your
24 attention to anything. That section itself is
1 what you look at and what you see because it's
2 different, it's unique. In my estimation, you
3 get more exposure with the sign where you had it
4 before, before you put it on the brick wall.
5 MR. ALT: May I respond?
6 MEMBER REINKE: Sure.
7 MR. ALT: I have a piece of
8 information that I can give you on that.
9 Off to the right actually -- and
10 I'll just draw right on here for you -- there are
11 -- there's a grove of really very nice really
12 feathery white pines right there, and they do a
13 couple of things, positive and not so positive.
14 One is they screen the dumpster right there.
15 They do a really nice job of screening the
16 dumpster, but they also completely screen the
17 storefront that -- what storefront that we do
18 have that faces Crescent, and that was the
19 motivation for moving sign number two from that
20 -- from this point right here on the barrel
21 around to this side because we felt like I didn't
22 stand a snowball's chance in a cold Michigan
23 winter of getting approval for something that
24 would require the removal of these pines. These
1 pines are gorgeous.
2 MEMBER REINKE: You're talking of
3 it being at the center of that end structure,
5 MR. ALT: Or anywhere along there.
6 I stood there and I looked and I panned left and
8 MEMBER REINKE: Driving by there,
9 my vision was it would be on the northern
11 MR. ALT: Right about there.
12 MEMBER REINKE: Right in there,
14 MR. ALT: Yeah. I took a look at
15 that, too, and that gives us a window -- it gives
16 us a peekaboo about like that.
17 MEMBER REINKE: That's a little
18 more than that.
19 MR. ALT: Well, maybe more than
20 that, okay. Something like that perhaps, almost
21 perpendicular to the street.
22 And that's for the exiting traffic.
23 You'd be westbound on Crescent and you'd get that
24 view. If you were eastbound you'd be past those
1 trees when -- and you'd be having -- you'd have
2 to look hard behind you to the right to see the
4 That was our motivation for
5 bringing it over here, so that we can get -- so
6 we open up that angle a little bit to catch it.
7 I agree with you. I would rather
8 have the sign, if we were going to be allowed to
9 have a second sign, on the storefront because
10 then the sign -- your eye hits the sign and then
11 looks and sees the glass and sees the activity
12 and the lights and the sparkle and everything of
13 the activity, whereas where we're proposing it,
14 it's a blank brick wall fronted by arborvitae.
15 And so it's a compromise in our
16 view, too.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Mr. Saven, did you
18 have something to offer?
19 MR. SAVEN: Yes. I would just like
20 to add to the board that this gentleman is
21 talking about sign number two in which he's
22 willing to cut down the arborvitaes and replace
23 it with anything that's acceptable. I would like
24 to make this as part of the motion, that he sees
1 the City's landscape architect for approval for
2 this particular feature before he engages in that
4 MS. CHAIRMAN: That was my question
5 actually, so you took the words out of my mouth.
6 MR. SAVEN: I didn't mean to do
8 MS. CHAIRMAN: Yes, Member Brennan.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: I think we have
10 some sentiment here that we can at least try a
11 motion and see how the board sits.
12 With regard to Case 03-071, sign
13 number two I would move for approval and the
14 location at the petitioner's desire; sign number
15 three denied; sign number four approved; with
16 sign number two, petitioner acknowledging that
17 there's some landscaping that has to be done and
18 you're going to address that and work with the
19 City on the removal and replacement.
20 MR. ALT: Yes.
21 MEMBER BRENNAN: And the purpose of
22 the variance is for business recognition and a
23 very difficult building.
24 MEMBER BAUER: Second.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Motion's been moved
2 and seconded. Any further discussion on the
3 motion? Member Gray.
4 MEMBER GRAY: I don't have any
5 problem supporting these, but I'd also like to
6 remind the petitioner that the Town Center has
7 started doing directional signs inside, too, and
8 I'm presuming that your recognition will be up
9 there as well.
10 MR. ALT: We may be too late for
11 that. I don't know. We've met with Jim, and
12 actually that wasn't discussed, and I will, I
13 will. But I was pleased to see them. They're --
14 I think they're extremely attractive.
15 MEMBER GRAY: They're very helpful
16 everywhere they are.
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Any further
19 (No further discussion.)
20 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, Sarah,
21 please call the roll.
22 MS. MARCHIONI: Frank, reason for
23 denial of sign three?
24 MEMBER BRENNAN: It's ugly. Do I
1 need a reason for (inaudible) even when
2 petitioner's already offered to remove it?
3 MR. SCHULTZ: I guess -- is the
4 petitioner withdrawing the request for sign
5 number three?
6 MR. ALT: On behalf of the
7 sentiment of the board, I would we pleased to
8 remove that sign from the variance request.
9 MEMBER BRENNAN: Thanks.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Record straight?
12 MR. SCHULTZ: Yes.
13 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Brennan?
14 MEMBER BRENNAN: Yes.
15 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Bauer?
16 MEMBER BAUER: Yes.
17 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gatt?
18 MEMBER GATT: Yes.
19 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gray?
20 MEMBER GRAY: Yes.
21 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Gronachan?
22 MEMBER GRONACHAN: Yes.
23 MS. MARCHIONI: Member Reinke?
24 MEMBER REINKE: No.
1 MS. CHAIRMAN: Your variances have
2 been approved. Please see the building
4 MR. ALT: Allow me to take just one
5 second to say that it's -- right up to this very
6 moment it's been a pleasure working with Mr.
7 Rogan (ph), Mr. Elphenstone, Mr. Amolsch, and
8 Miss Marchioni, and we just look forward to the
9 successful completion of the project.
10 MS. CHAIRMAN: Thank you very much.
11 MEMBER BRENNAN: Look forward to
12 eating there.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: All right. With
14 that portion of the meeting over with, we have a
15 few other matters to discuss, I guess since I
16 added them to the agenda.
17 Don, every fall the Michigan
18 Planning Association has a conference for
19 planners and zoning people, and it's been to our
20 benefit that we've gone in the past, and I just
21 wanted to bring it up and find out what the
22 status was, if any of the board members would be
23 eligible to go this year. It's at Grand
1 MR. SAVEN: Once again, this item
2 is a very tight budget item, conferences and
3 workshops. Once again, this year the tight
4 budget item for those particular conferences and
5 workshop for board members, what have you, and it
6 was something that was considered as far as the
7 budget costs are concerned, but I did not -- I
8 was not privy to get that into my budget.
9 I can petition, if it is the
10 board's desire, I can make the request, but I'm
11 not sure whether or not I'll be able to do this,
12 but I would need to know how many would be
13 interested in going.
14 MS. CHAIRMAN: Board members, any
16 MEMBER GATT: When is it?
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: October 15th to the
19 MEMBER REINKE: It's a very
20 beneficial function. We've always come back and
21 learned a lot and picked up a lot from it. If at
22 all possible, I'd think it's something we should
23 look at, and I would be interested in going.
24 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would definitely
1 be interested. And I understand about budget
2 cuts and tight economy, and I think, especially
3 with the newer members and the changes that are
4 taking place -- and our own attorney firm last
5 year gave a wonderful presentation up there, and
6 we missed it, which I will segue into my next
7 section, topic, but it's just a wonderful benefit
8 for board members.
9 We don't do this as a profession.
10 This is our hobby, as somebody once told me, so
11 -- I mean it's -- and so I would like to be as
12 knowledgeable as possible, and so if there is
13 anything that we can do to help this board gain
14 that knowledge or otherwise, yes.
15 So if you could submit that
17 MR. SAVEN: I would need to know
18 how many people would be interested.
19 MS. CHAIRMAN: I would be
21 MEMBER GRAY: I've never attended
22 one of these conferences. I would be interested.
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: So it would be
24 three. Bob?
1 MEMBER GATT: I'll be in Denver on
2 business through the 14th.
3 MR. SAVEN: Mr. Brennan?
4 MEMBER BRENNAN: I make all the
5 motions. I'm all set.
6 MS. MARCHIONI: Would you like me
7 to do the hotel accommodations?
8 MEMBER REINKE: No.
9 MS. MARCHIONI: That was a joke.
10 MEMBER REINKE: Don't worry about
11 the hotel, just make sure you schedule
12 Mr. Sanghvi's transportation.
13 MS. CHAIRMAN: And if a tree falls,
14 I don't want to hear about it.
15 (Discussion being held around
16 the table.)
17 MS. CHAIRMAN: Speaking of
18 education, in June I talked -- or we talked about
19 training with Mr. Schultz and your senior
20 partner, Jerry Fisher. Are you any closer to
21 picking a date and organizing that?
22 MR. SCHULTZ: We talked. Our
23 preference would be Wednesday nights, just
24 because of the fewer meetings. It probably would
1 be best if it was not a Planning Commission
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay.
4 MR. SCHULTZ: And in terms of --
5 and so we're fairly open. I mean, the idea would
6 be for both of us to be there, and I know Jerry
7 is very interested. We prepare handout material
8 like we did last time, update it, and I think
9 take the opportunity to prepare, like we
10 mentioned last time, kind of a motion cheat sheet
11 and talk about that, as part of the presentation.
12 One of the things that we probably
13 haven't talked about is location, because we tend
14 to believe that you get more bang for the buck if
15 you do it sort of off site, and we had good
16 success doing it at our office, but I know it's
17 in Farmington Hills and it's not as convenient
18 for you. But it tends to work better when it's
19 kind of a separate training session as opposed to
20 something people can wander in and out of and,
21 you know, at City Hall. But we're open to doing
22 it anywhere that the board would like.
23 MEMBER BRENNAN: I don't have any
24 problem with Farmington Hills.
1 MEMBER REINKE: Farmington Hills is
2 not that far away.
3 MR. SCHULTZ: We're at Thirteen and
4 Northwestern. We have an auditorium that's
5 really built for this. It's the whole idea of
6 having it.
7 MEMBER REINKE: We're away from
8 interruptions here and so forth.
9 MR. SCHULTZ: Exactly.
10 MEMBER REINKE: I think it would be
11 really much better to just have it there.
12 MR. SCHULTZ: You know, it's
13 obvious. You can talk about any cases that --
14 this board doesn't really have that, you're kind
15 of done with yours when you're done with yours.
16 We don't talk about City cases, we don't talk
17 about any public meeting kind of issues. Just a
18 training session.
19 MEMBER GRAY: Would you also choose
20 a couple dates to offer to us and-
21 MS. MARCHIONI: (Interposing) Do
22 you want me to go through the calendar and pick
23 non Planning Commission dates?
24 MR. SCHULTZ: Any non Planning
1 Commission dates.
2 MEMBER GRAY: Because aren't there
3 some planning commissioners that would also
4 benefit from this?
5 MR. SCHULTZ: I think this would be
6 -- we'd just like to do ZBA and have a separate
8 MS. MARCHIONI: I'll pick some
9 dates, non Planning Commission night (inaudible).
10 MEMBER REINKE: It's hard to do a
12 MS. MARCHIONI: You give me your
14 MEMBER GRAY: Wednesdays are good
15 for me.
16 MR. SCHULTZ: And then if it's
17 going to be Wednesday night, what we typically do
18 is order in, you know, something from Buddy's or
19 something like that so you don't have to go home
20 and then come, that way you can get started by
21 6:30 or something like that so you're not real
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: Other thing, too,
24 like we talked, and Tom and I talked back in July
1 in regards to the motions, especially with what
2 has happened in the past, and I think that we can
3 always use a brush-up. I mean, we have some
4 members on the board that have been here for a
5 long time and they may not need brushing up, but
6 newer members do, and they can always offer some
7 insight to us, so that was the real reason, and
8 that's why it's only a ZBA.
9 MR. SCHULTZ: One of the things
10 we'll talk about is how much the Oakland County
11 Circuit Court has changed in the last few years
12 with different judges and different members and
13 different expectations. It's good to be reminded
14 of what they might be expecting.
15 MS. CHAIRMAN: So, Sarah, if you
16 could do that, that would be great.
17 Is there anything else to be
19 MEMBER GRAY: I would like to know
20 why we're not receiving Planning Commission
21 meeting minutes. We haven't received them for
22 several months now.
23 MS. MARCHIONI: The whole set?
24 MEMBER BRENNAN: Anything.
1 MEMBER GRAY: We haven't received
3 MS. MARCHIONI: I thought we --
4 well, I know you haven't gotten action summaries,
5 but I thought we determined that nobody wanted a
6 full set of minutes. You want full sets?
7 MEMBER GRAY: Yeah.
8 MS. MARCHIONI: All right.
9 MEMBER GRAY: Is there anybody who
10 doesn't want full sets.
11 MS. CHAIRMAN: We discussed that,
12 that we weren't going to do the full sets, we
13 were just going to get action summaries.
14 MS. MARCHIONI: You want full sets?
15 MEMBER GRAY: I want full sets
16 because the action summaries aren't giving near
17 enough information.
18 MS. MARCHIONI: Does everybody
19 wants full sets?
20 MEMBER BRENNAN: When did we last
21 see an action summary from the Planning
23 MS. CHAIRMAN: I haven't seen any.
24 MR. SCHULTZ: They have started in
1 the last couple months. They are starting to
2 come out.
3 MS. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Anything
5 (No further discussion.)
6 MS. CHAIRMAN: Seeing none, we'll
7 adjourn this meeting. Have a great evening.
8 (The meeting was adjourned
9 at 9:23 p.m.)
10 - - -
11 Date approved:
October 7, 2003 __________________________
Sarah Marchioni Recording Secretary
1 C E R T I F I C A T E
3 I, Cheryl L. James, do hereby
4 certify that I have recorded stenographically the
5 proceedings had and testimony taken in the
6 above-entitled matter at the time and place
7 hereinbefore set forth, and I do further certify that
8 the foregoing transcript, consisting of one hundred and
9 nineteen (119) typewritten pages, is a true and correct
10 transcript of my said stenograph notes to the best of
11 my ability.
Cheryl L. James, CSR-5786