Mayor Clark called the meeting to order at 7:30 PM

ROLL CALL: Mayor Clark, Mayor ProTem Lorenzo, Council Members Bononi, Crawford, Csordas, DeRoche and Kramer

ALSO PRESENT: Edward Kriewall-City Manager, Dennis Watson-City Attorney,

Dave Potter and Doug Pakkala of J.C.K. and Associates, Steven Korth, Joseph Kozma, Bill Klockow or the Oakland County Drain Office.

Don Weaver, Director of Public Services for Northville Township, said there were residents of Quail Ridge Subdivision present who are anxious to hear from the Oakland County Drain Commission regarding the Chapter 21 process and to move on with the project.

Mayor Clark said there is a problem with the drain that runs under Eight Mile Road and into the Quail Ridge Subdivision. At one time there was concern or question whether the Patnales Drain was contributing to the problem and it was not because it went into the Middle Rouge. Glen Haven Condominiums go to the Eight Mile Drain and were built and in place before the adoption of the City of Novi Storm Water Management Master Plan. Mission Point Subdivision empties into that drain. The problem has a long history and goes back to 1993.

There were questions whether the problem is because of storm water that travels under Eight Mile Road from Novi into the drain as it goes through the Quail Ridge Subdivision. Past engineering studies seem to indicate that trees, shrubs and brush along the creek had been moved by the developer and/or homeowners, which would contribute to the speed up of erosion. When Quail Ridge was being built there were two detention basins that were ultimately filled in and a swale put in place to carry water away.

In 1993 there was a cost estimate for improvements in the range of about $200,000; currently it would be in excess of $300,000. The City Engineers had done a study, reviewed the problem and had recommended that Novi not participate in the resolution of the problem.

We are here to take a fresh look at the situation and see exactly where we are and what would be involved if there was an Inter-County drain put into place.

Mr. Kriewall said historically it appeared that our biggest objection to this point is that the typical drainage project would normally assess on an acreage basis and the burden of cost based on data we have would be around 80% of the cost. Our Engineers have told Council the only real expense we should have with this project would be the drop manhole on the south side of Eight Mile Road which would handle any concerns that might have occurred over time in terms of our not restricting the run off. In other words, when Country Place and Glen Haven and some of those projects were developed we did not provide for detention for those projects. However, the rate of flow from those projects was designed to be at the agricultural run off rate and that is the rate that is maintained to this date. The only thing Novi might be responsible for would be to drop a manhole to defuse the flow once it comes under Eight Mile Road. The cost of that is around $40,000 and should be Novi’s share.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo clarified that was the Administration and the Engineers opinion and not necessarily those of the Council.

Mr. Kozma, Oakland County Drain Commission, explained what a Chapter 21 Drain is, how it is established and how it worked. The Chapter 21 Drain is a drain that is receiving or passing water from one county to another. It required two or more petitions to be filed with the Michigan Department of Agriculture; petitions being corporations that are possibly subject to assessment for the project itself. Petitions state that the drainage project is necessary for the public health. The Michigan Department of Agriculture notifies the possible affected public corporations and a Drainage Board is established for the drain. The Drainage Board is made up of the Director of the Michigan Department of Agriculture or one of his deputies and he is the Chairperson of the Drainage Board. A Drain Commissioner from each of the counties involved in the drainage project are members of the Drainage Board.

In a Chapter 21 Drain there is an Augmented Board created in addition to the Drainage Board. The Augmented Board is made up of the Drainage Board Members, the Michigan Department of Agriculture and two Drain Commissioners. Also on the Augmented Board is the Chairman of the Board of Commissioners from each of the counties and the Chairperson of the Board of Auditors or of the Finance Committee of each of the affected counties.

The Augmented Board holds its first meeting and considers the petitions that have been filed and establishes the determination of sufficiency of those petitions. On a tentative basis they determine the practicality of the drain and make a tentative determination as to the public corporations that have to be assessed.

The second meeting of the Augmented Board for the Inter-County Drain is a Public Hearing and it is called to hear objections to the drain or petitions and to the matter of assessing the cost of the drain. Final determination is made at the Public Hearing as to the sufficiency of the petition, whether the drain is practical, whether it should be constructed and what public corporations, not a percentage, should be assessed for the construction of the drain. If the Augmented Board determines all these things to be so they issue a final order of determination. At that point it is the end of any activity by the Augmented Board. It then goes back to the Drainage Board and they hire engineers to prepare plans, specs and an estimate of cost. In subsequent meetings they tentatively establish the percentage of costs of the drain or the breakdown of what percentage each of the affected public corporations would bear.

In this case the Drainage Board tentatively identified the Township of Northville, the City of Novi, Wayne and Oakland County’s and possibly the Department of Transportation as being the public corporations that would be assessed. The Drainage Board establishes the percentages of cost to be bore by each public corporation and the statute states that "the apportionment shall take into consideration benefits to accrue to each public corporation". Also the extent to which each public corporation contributes to the condition that makes the drain necessary. The Drainage Board proceeds and holds a Public Hearing, apportionment hearing, to confirm or adjust apportionment percentages. When that is done construction plans are prepared to specifications, the job is bid, financing is arranged to sell bonds or the public corporation will pay cash to the drain on small drain projects. The Drain is constructed and once constructed it is turned over to the Inter-County Drainage Board to operate and maintain.

Typically what happens is the Drainage Board elects one of the two Drain Commissioner officers as secretary to the Board and that entity would also be responsible for the maintenance situations of the drain when constructed. In Oakland County there are about 10 Inter-County Chapter 21 Drains. The majority of them are with Oakland County and Macomb County and there is one other with Wayne County, which is the Randolph Street Drain. Novi, City of Northville and Wayne County are involved in that project.

In December of 1994 the Oakland County Drain Commission was contacted about an initial meeting of an Inter-County Drain and they met in Northville Township. Northville Township was under the impression that they might want to special assess this particular drainage project. They were getting provisions of the Chapter 21 Drain Code to do that. At that meeting the firm of Ayers Lewis, Norse and May was retained to prepare a preliminary engineering report with the price not to exceed $10,000. The cost was to be borne by Northville Township with the provision that if the drain project went ahead they would be reimbursed. The preliminary engineering report was prepared in May of 1996 and revised in September of 1996. In March of 1999 Northville Township filed a petition, Wayne County filed a petition in June of 1999 and those petitions were filed with the Department of Agriculture. A meeting was convened on August 18, 1999. It was a meeting of the Drainage Board with the representatives of the two Drain Offices and the Department of Agriculture and they established a tentative apportionment the public corporations would be assessed. The estimated project cost was approximately $400,000 and that was the last activity on this until tonight.

Mr. Kozma said there has been a meeting of the Drainage Board on this project but the Augmented Board has not met yet.

Dan Weaver said at the meeting in August they were attempting to schedule a meeting of the Augmented Board and chose six dates in September. It is difficult to get everyone scheduled and they tried all through the fall.

Mr. Weaver said his file went back to 1990 when they first started getting complaints on this and he did not think that the detention ponds were ever purposely filled in. Also, it was mentioned that the existing subdivisions were designed for an agricultural rate of discharge. He did not think that was possible if they are not of agricultural nature unless there is a detention pond or some means of buffering the flow. He did not believe that in any of the developments discharging into this drainage course that do not have the benefit of a detention pond would be able to be maintained at an agricultural rate.

Todd Weber, resident, said this significantly impacts his property and many others. He said they should see the water rushing up when it rains. The kids are drawn to the water and the banks are deep and straight down with big undercuts and trees are falling. It is getting worse and something has to be done. He was concerned that this process would take years to get any resolution and his first concern is that someone is going to get hurt. He asked that the Oakland County Drain Commission look at it. Mr. Weber asked how long the process generally took?

Mr. Kozma said probably a year minimum depending on how elaborate the construction is and how readily people would give easements for the construction. If they have to go to court and condemn property then it drags the procedure out.

Mr. Weber asked if this was the best approach for the citizens of Northville Township to get resolution? He is not concerned who paid for it he just wanted it done.

Mr. Kozma said there are quicker ways to do it if somebody has the money. He said they had a suggestion that the Rouge Program Office might have money available but he did not know what the requirements were. Mr. Weber asked him to check into it.

Mr. Kozma said part of the allure of the Inter-County Drain is that more than one community would be paying for it. There are a lot of procedures such as public notices and meetings, etc. that certainly do not expedite a project.

Mr. Weber said his house is stable and would not wash away but someone else might. He asked if they should take their own action because something needed to be done or they could lose their house and what would that do to someone else down the street?

Mr. Kozma said taking action yourself would be up to the local community and whatever type of permits they would require.

Resident, unknown, said the flow goes from 6" to 8" to over 4 foot when it rains. It overflows the banks at Eight Mile immediately. He said someone mentioned erosion from people clearing the banks but the only clearing that had been done was when they are undercut and the trees fall in. The trees have to be pulled out to keep the flow going so it does not back up.

Mr. Kozma said he was not saying that anyone was actively doing that now but in the past it appeared it might have been done initially by the developer.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said she could not express the depth of her disappointment that this had taken so long to get to where it is today. The City of Novi has known about this since April of 1992. This situation and the length that it took to get here are basically the epitome of government at its worst. She chose to run for election because she wanted to get things done and not get involved in bureaucracy for eight years over an issue such as this.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo agreed with the gentleman that this should not be about blame or contribution but about the issue of health, safety and welfare. The issue is also the health and function of a natural resource in the Township of Northville and the City of Novi. That is what we should be interested in and how do we work towards an effective solution that would effectively handle the drainage and improve the function of the natural resource that is also in a very degraded state. In terms of the ponds, she understood they were constructed as temporary sedimentation basins that were to go off line and swale was to be constructed in its place. She was not sure the City of Novi had the knowledge back in the 70’s that they do in the year 2000 or even ten years ago in terms of requiring on site retention or how to use our natural resources. She questioned if there were sedimentation basins, aren’t there permanent retention basins? In addition to the other things that needed to be stabilized was it a possibility that rather than leaving those basin filled in could they be turned into storm water wetland basins. Then there would be detention and water quality features and it could be done in a way it could use vegetation that would not only slow and filter the water but would divert a lot of the water as well. She asked Oakland County to explore this.

Mr. Pakkala said one of the things they looked at in 1996 was trying to put retention up stream Novi and there was not enough area and storage volume within the limited drainage easement. There was not enough surface area to get any meaningful effect with wetland planting.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo asked if that had really been studied or was it just off the cuff?

Mr. Weaver said they looked at it up stream and there was limited land. There is limited land down stream too where the drainage problems and erosion is.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo asked how large the ponds were?

Mr. Weaver said the ponds were basically small in line ponds. He said it is possible to look at expanding those. He would like to get an idea of the water quality down there but the problem is the transmission of the water to get to that point is still erosion and that is the problem.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said this could be a combination of solutions.

Mr. Weaver said it was a very good suggestion and he had not thought of it.

Mr. Potter said there was some encroachment into the easement over the years. Basically, what has to be done today to create a drain, in terms of capacity we are talking about a 60" pipe, is to clear all the trees and brush in order to get equipment down in there to clean it out. In order to do that there is quite a bit of tree and brush removal and these existing ponds do not provide any detention because they are full of water. In order to get it from Eight Mile down to the lake it would involve all the residents with homes that back up to it.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said in regard to a timeline she would hope that each of the entities that are committed to this project would work towards completing it in less than a year. Of course that would depend on the reasonableness and fairness of those who are contributing.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo asked, in terms of the apportionments, if it was a set of figures in terms of the area contributing? Is that what Chapter 21 is based on the area contributing storm water to the drain?

Mr. Kozma said no.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said there are variables in terms of how that could be broken down.

Mr. Kozma said typically what they would do in Oakland County is land area and run off for land use. For instance, the County Road right of way per acre per square foot generates more run off than someone’s backyard. Typically it is based on land area and run off for land use. That is not in the Drain Code and the only requirements are when assessing the Highway Department of the County they have a formula that must be used based on those principles. Unfortunately it is supposed to be based on who is benefiting and it does not have to be based strictly on land area and run off. It is based on benefit and what is causing the problem and why is the drain being petitioned for in the first place.

He said they had discussed at a Drain Board Meeting that the apportionment is the part that decided who paid what percentages. He thought the original study that was done just showed land areas and the City of Novi was about 80%-81%, Northville Township was 12% and the two counties made up the balance.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said in terms of how this is funded it does not necessarily have to be funded through an S.A.D. If the municipality wanted to make contributions it could.

Mr. Kozma said this could not be special assessed at this point because there are provisions in the Drain Code in Chapter 21; "if the intent was for the community to special assess the project certain things had to be done before the petitions were filed". Northville Township considered doing that but changed their mind. Let’s say the City of Novi ended up with a 50% apportionment. Basically, a bill would be sent to the City of Novi for 50% of the construction costs, maintenance and operations costs and how the City paid for that was up to them. However, they could not go back and special assess it against the properties within the district.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo reminded Council that Novi does have a Drain Fund and that Drain Fund often pays for storm water detention regional basins that handle on site detention for developers in this City as well as property acquisition in the City. She said in terms of a funding source Novi does have one and she did not think it unreasonable in terms of how much was contributed to the problem that Novi would be paying to contribute to the solution.

Mr. Kriewall said that is exactly correct. When the community approved the Storm Water Management Program and there was a Charter Amendment of $1 Million for drainage improvements in 1983 they took all the old specially accessed County drain projects and started funding those improvements and that is what has been done for the last 17 years.

Member Crawford wanted to get a handle on when the problem started. It was alluded that Country Place because of its run off contributed to the problem. It was there long before Quail Ridge. He asked what changed to make the problem happen because he assumed the run off has remained the same. Was it the rebuilding of Eight Mile or the building of Quail Ridge? When did the problem start?

Mr. Pakkala said his understanding was that it started in 1990. Country Place Condominiums were constructed around 1970, Glen Haven around 1978 and Pine Hollow was in 1988 and Quail Ridge was in the late 70’s early 80’s.

Member Crawford asked if there was a problem before Quail Ridge was built? What happened to make the problem happen?

Ron Kavalard, Northville Township Consulting Engineer, thought it was a combination of two things that happened over the years. He said no one was looking at it when it was a vacant piece of property and there could have been erosion then. He said two things happened starting with developments in Novi and also with Quail Ridge in Northville Township. He said prior to development it was a relatively open area and the banks were in a natural state. So there was some vegetation there holding the banks in place. Then when they started building Quail Ridge people put grass in and it probably helped out the banks. Also, it takes five to ten years for the undercutting and erosion to start taking place. As soon as the undercutting of the banks start it continues to compound and it takes about ten years for this to happen. This is a classic example and it is starting to add terraces in the over bank areas and it will continue to do this because there is no way of controlling the flow from up stream. They looked up stream in the early 90’s for some areas of detention and it is just not there so we have to find a way to control that velocity.

Member Crawford asked if there were homes and backyards that were backing right up to this?

Mr. Weaver said yes there is grass right up to the edge.

Member Crawford asked if anyone looked at the developer of the project who approved the plans and should anything have been done to foresee this and perhaps not build as close or build in another area?

Mr. Weaver said the majority of that stream is in the commons area of the subdivision.

Member Crawford asked if the stream changed when Quail Ridge was put in and why it is eroding now when it did not before?

Mr. Weaver said there are several things and one is the increased flow.

Member Crawford asked if he meant there was more water now then there was before?

Mr. Weaver said yes.

Member Crawford asked if it was from the Novi side?

Mr. Kavalara said yes from the Novi side into the 70’s and continuing on and when there is a rainy day there is more water because Novi does not have some type of detention.

Member Crawford said there is more water since Country Place and others were built. He said it seemed to be a long period of time in there.

Mr. Kavalara said the stream had changed somewhat. There were two ponds sitting in there and one is still there. When Eight Mile Road was widened they did some improvements there because there were problems prior to that. He said it appeared the channel had been realigned in several locations but they did not remove the pond and the plans show they were removed. There was channel work done and there is no doubt that is a contributing factor. He felt this was a combination of increased flow and realignment and changing of the natural watercourse that has caused this problem. It is a combination of problems and it cannot be said it is just Novi or just Northville. It is the fault of everyone.

Mr. Potter said he thought what happened was something called a blow out. When you start talking about communities crying service for your residents you are talking about level of service and level of protection. County drain systems are generally ten years. The City of Novi is ten years and once in a while we get rained on quite a bit and if it exceeds a 100-year there is damage. This happened in Farmington Hills with the Craig Drain right after it was repaired.

Mr. Potter said the question of why this all happened in 1990 if they research the rainfall they would find out there had been a lot of rain and so there is damage.

Mr. Potter said it was never said that we should not participate as a community and felt that this was a good example of why there are Inter-County Drains but the issue is equitable benefit. Should Novi be held accountable financially for some of the things that perhaps Northville could have prevented? He said no where has he picked up that perhaps it was a blow out because if there is a major rainfall it just blows it out and it could happen in Novi in any drain. They are protected for that level of service for sewer, water, drainage, roads, everything has a certain level of service.

Member Crawford said once that happened if it was not immediately repaired it got worse and worse.

Mr. Potter said that is correct. He believed some of the encroachment has probably exacerbated it and when Eight Mile was improved they had the opportunity to construct a valve structure to reduce some of the discharge coming out of the system and it was not done. Wayne County is not here and so their calculations cannot be addressed. It certainly did not help when they widened Eight Mile from a two to a five-lane road, curb and gutter; there is instant peak discharge that was never there.

Mr. Potter said our comments here boil down to saying that we see the problems and agree that there are residences backing up to this and it needs to be fixed and comes down to what is equitable for Novi.

Chapter 21 can be circumvented and everyone would have to sit down and negotiate what the prices should be. He said that was their position. He suggested taking some off the top that perhaps Northville might have been responsible for and then we can talk about the rest.

Member Kramer said obviously there had been some preliminary engineering done and if there needed to be more the issue of velocity needed to be looked at because flow straightening of any kind increased velocity. He thought overall they had a process and thought essentially the public corporations involved expressed a support of the process. If a process were fair and equitable it would take into account the assessment of the area and the assessment of the watercourse.

Member Kramer asked if Step #3 meant whether there was sufficient need in support for the Chapter 21 process? Mr. Korth said that was correct. Member Kramer said Step #5 is tentative apportionment and Step #6 is the determination of final so somewhere between #5 and #6 there is an assessment that goes on?

Mr. Korth said prior to the end of coming up with percentages of apportionments, the engineers have been hired and there has been an apportionment study done. Member Kramer asked if the engineering study would determine that? Mr. Korth said the engineers were retained to do an apportionment study because someone had to do one. There is nothing that said that the public corporations couldn’t come to an agreement amongst themselves as to a percentage of assessment.

Mr. Korth said when the engineering plans are completed a drainage district has to be established.

Member Kramer said he was interested in the assessment process and not so much in the engineering study. The engineering study is very straight forward but the benefits of assessing the cost is the thoughtful process.

Mr. Korth said typically the design engineer of the drain established the drainage district, which is the boundary of those properties that contribute run off. Then someone is retained whether it is the same engineer, staff from the State or one of the counties to actually do the apportionment trying to determine benefits, land areas etc.

Member Kramer said the function of Step #6, apportionment hearing, is to take the recommendations and who was invited to the apportionment hearing.

Mr. Korth said there is a Public Hearing, there is notification in the newspaper and notices are sent to each public corporation.

Member Kramer asked to what extent are the public corporations who would contribute to the cost of the project involved before that point?

Mr. Korth said input is always sought from everyone before it went to an apportionment hearing and the communities would be involved so they would know what the numbers are coming out to be and to get their input as to errors, etc.

Member Kramer said as long as there is a combination of fact finding for a logical assessment of the projects the best we can do is insure that the public corporations work cooperatively together.

Mr. Korth said the final decision is made by the Drain Board as to those apportionments. They hold a hearing, take testimony, etc. but the final decision is theirs alone.

Member Kramer said it sounded like to come up with a resolution it would take a cooperative effort from most of that group. He said the best we can do is to move it along as rapidly as it can be facilitated. Member Kramer said he supported that.

Member Bononi asked a question of Mr. Kavalara and Mr. Kozma. She asked them to comment on whether or not they felt that drop manhole would be sufficient to curtail that flow back down stream?

Mr. Kavalara said no that was the recommendation in 1996 that since there was no way to control the flow something else had to be done and that was to reduce the velocity.

Member Crawford asked what a drop manhole was?

Mr. Pakkala said the streams that are on a real steep grade are getting water coming out of the pipe that is going down a real steep hill and picking up a lot of velocity. The drop manhole would bring the water from the culvert on Eight Mile Road straight down and then pipe it out with probably a larger than 60" pipe to reduce the velocity.

Member Bononi asked if they saw any alternatives that would be effective in the long run?

Mr. Kozma said there has been a tentative design given the space there is to work with. It would be nice to have a stilting basin, sediment basin and a detention basin but it takes land area. The problems that exist out there are about the size of this room and with the volume of water there is with a 60" pipe going full blast a pond this size would not be able to hold back the water. The drop manhole and lining the channel would be one of the least expensive alternatives but he did not know whether it would pass the problem downstream from this subdivision to some place else.

Member Bononi said she was concerned that initially it was about a $200,000 project cost and now it is $400,000 and probably greater and it has taken us $200,000 to get to the table. She felt it was a sad commentary on their problem solving attitudes. She asked how we could forestall continuing not to abandon our ten year storm event standard from the standpoint of the degree of development that we have in Novi and our surrounding communities. She thought that they were avoiding a long-standing issue. She said her goal was to resolve this matter and she was very sorry that it had taken this much money and time.

Member DeRoche said he had to leave and was trying to get up to speed. He did not know as much as the others about these issues. He wanted to know why someone from the Northville Township Board was not present, the process and what had been brought to the table. He was interested in knowing exactly what happened and it sounded like there was no problem until the Quail Ridge Subdivision was built. He said that was a big concern and as an elected official in our community that question had to be answered clearly before our constituents wanted them to spend any money. He said our level of involvement needed to be well documented. He asked if Quail Ridge was built to the design standards of the plan they submitted? In Novi before Council approved a plan the developer had to come before Council and show that it met all the requirements and restrictions. He assumed that happened in Northville Township also.

Mr. Weaver said storm water detention was not exercised and Quail Ridge was built in 1978.

Member DeRoche said the plan addressed water flow that was done by the developer. He placed a high value on the process and especially on public participation so he appreciated the people that came from Northville Township. He hoped it went through the public process with the Public Hearings but did not feel a time frame of a year had to be there for the public process to take place. He thought some things were important especially the Public Hearings and the participation among the municipalities and corporations involved. If they were looking for the City of Novi to participate he would support that and hoped they could bring everyone together. He said if we are going to cut corners, try to patch this up and rush the judgement on it without Public Hearings and public input then he would be against it. Hopefully everyone can come together, do it in the public and hear what the citizens say, the elected bodies and from Wayne and Oakland Counties and try to put this through. It sounds like the residents are not getting any response and that has to be frustrating.

Gerry Buckley, Quail Ridge, said he had been overseeing this since he moved in in September of 1989. There was a problem then and lawyers were engaged by the subdivision in 1990 and before. That stream was a wonderful stream with wild life and it is his understanding that as the construction in Novi took away the land for the run off and absorption replacing it with concrete and asphalt there was more and more run off. The problem with the water in Quail Ridge is independent of the widening of Eight Mile because the problem existed before Eight Mile was widened in 1992 and 93. The subdivision started looking into it with the Township and because there are five entities involved that is where the frustration has been that nothing has been done. The Township wanted to set up a Special Assessment District, which he thought they could have done with the cooperation of Wayne County. It has been in the hands of the State now. He asked where does that all play out now as far as the City of Novi is concerned?

Member DeRoche said if the residents of Novi were having these kinds of problems and it was their opinion that two counties, M.D.O.T. and the adjoining municipalities were responsible to a certain extent he thought they would be demanding immediate action from this Council. They would probably expect this of us because it is a health, safety and welfare issue and go after the parties later because that is the type of representation they expect from the government. He thought Northville Township should be out in front saying the rest of you guys have to play ball with us but this Council represents Novi residents and need to be sure they are treated properly and are involved in this whole process. He was very frustrated because he expected Northville Township Officials to be at the table.

Mr. Kozma said he wanted to clarify one thing. The Chapter 21 Drain requires two petitions and the necessary petitions were not filed until last summer and that is when this process started. Whatever went on before that there was no involvement of either county or M.D.O. T. That is one of the benefits of an Inter-County Drain is the ability to assess the public corporation within the drainage district. If Northville Township decided to go it alone or with the cooperation of the City of Novi they could not assess the Department for Road Drainage contributions. He did not know why it took until June of 1999 to file the petitions.

Member Csordas agreed with Member DeRoche and asked why the elected officials were not present. All of that area north of Eight Mile west of Meadowbrook was there when he got there 23 years ago. He remembered when Quail Ridge was built and it seemed to him that the builder and the City of Northville and the Planning Department should have seen this coming. He said he was very concerned with what Member Bononi said about $400,000 when he first heard $300,000. Then Mr. Kriewall said the City might be responsible for a drop manhole and if that is the case that is fine but it is $40,000. He was very concerned that at the end of this Novi would be responsible for far more than its proportionate share. He said he could see that coming down the road and could say that because the final decision is the Drain Boards decision. It is interesting that the gentleman said it might just pass the problem down stream. He said there is a nice subdivision down stream and the Meadowbrook Country Club and he is wondering if as this problem goes farther down stream is Novi still responsible for that?

Member Csordas was concerned that there was a 60" drain coming out from underneath Eight Mile Road and would not have made sense when the subdivision was built. He said he agreed with the process and the Public Hearings but he was going to be very cautious and pessimistic about Novi’s portion of this. He would be very concerned if Novi moved in the direction of paying the greatest proportionate share. He did not understand why In December of 1994 Northville considered a special assessment and then rescinded it.

Mr. Kriewall said years ago they had a drain called the Randolph Drain that involved the City of Novi and the City of Northville near Eight Mile and Taft Road and Novi got hammered on that one pretty badly. Again, the City of Northville failed to require the proper drainage improvement. He said Novi ended up paying for all of that at about 80% back then. There is a history of Novi paying for things down stream when other engineers and other municipalities should have taken care of it.

Member Csordas said that spoke right to his point and there was no way he would support something like that.

Member Kramer thought the engineers should look at accelerators. They do not know what happened and anything that straightened the stream would increase the velocity. Eight Mile Road went from two lanes to five. He did not know what the slope on the culvert is. He suspected this problem occurred because of more velocity change than volume change and asked the engineers to look at it.

Member Crawford said he had a tremendous amount of mixed feelings on this project. He felt sorry for the residents because they have a problem that needed to be fixed yesterday and to go through this whole process for a year could be very detrimental. He also concurred with what Members DeRoche and Csordas said. He was concerned that Northville Township did not do anything about this. It was their responsibility even if it was Novi’s problem and he was not saying it was. He felt a major portion of it is how the Quail Ridge plans were approved and developed and how it might not have been done to plan. He felt there was a significant amount of fault there. In the same respect he would like to help somehow but did not want it to be detrimental to the City of Novi and our taxpayers. However, if Novi had funds in their Drain Fund that they could help to co-contribute with Northville Township, not to Novi’s detriment or the Drain Fund now, it might get the process going right away instead of going through all of these things. At some point in time the apportionment would have to be determined. Perhaps there is some responsibility from the City of Novi but there is a great responsibility from Northville Township, Wayne and Oakland Counties and M.D.O.T. Is it possible to get this project going? It is similar to when property has to be condemned and we get the property now and talk price later; here we would pay the price and talk about apportionment later. He asked the County Officials if it would jeopardize the process if we could reach an agreement with Northville Township.

Mr. Kozma believed it would jeopardize the process because of the way the statute was written regarding the Public Hearing requirements. He suggested Member Crawford contact the Department of Agriculture. He said typically you could not go ahead and build the whole thing and then worry about apportionment after the fact.

Member Crawford asked if this process could be expedited?

Mr. Kozma said he was ball parking a year. The construction plans have not been drawn up and by statute so many of these meetings are mandated and could not be short-circuited.

Member Crawford asked if there were time frames that had to lapse between each of these meetings or can they be compressed?

Mr. Kozma said time frames are basically how long it takes to get the ads in the paper, the first class mailing, etc. and by statute the notices have to go out 20 days before a meeting. Notices have to be in the newspaper twice with the first being not less than 20 days before and that adds to the time.

Member Crawford said if anyone could come up with some sort of solution he would look favorably on that.

Mayor Clark felt Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo focused the issue correctly and it is a serious problem that has to be addressed putting aside issues of who did what. This Chapter 21 procedure could take a year and Member Crawford made an excellent suggestion.

Mayor Clark asked if a meeting could be held with Northville Township, Novi, Wayne County, Oakland County and possibly M.D.O.T., and if an agreement could be drawn up where each party would agree to contribute X number of dollars so there could be an immediate solution to the problem. Also, to be provided in that agreement would be that an independent engineering firm would determine, after a study and discussion with engineers from all entities involved, who is responsible for what portion. Then if adjustments had to be made in the payments that could be done at a later date.

Mr. Watson said each of these governmental entities involved have the power to contract, assuming everyone can come to an agreement, and have their respective bodies give the necessary approvals and an agreement like this could be done. It begs the question of whether getting through that process after an agreement is reached is much quicker than this process. He said he would hate to see Novi go down that path and short circuit this process. He said it could not hurt to pursue that on a two-track method. He did not want to see one delay the other.

Mayor Clark said he was not suggesting one should be supported at the exclusion of the other.

Member Crawford thought the County said if we pursue this suggestion then it jeopardized the other so the two track might not be possible.

Mayor Clark said that was his advice.

Mr. Kozma said if they wanted to short circuit the Chapter 21 procedure by going ahead and building something and then turn it over to the Inter-County Drainage District to maintain and operate it would be necessary to contact the State Department of Agriculture to feel them out. Basically the two counties are being assessed for road drainage purposes and typically the road authorities are not going to contribute to a drainage project they are not mandated to contribute to. It might be difficult to convince either of the counties to contribute to road run off when there is no law mandating it.

Member Csordas said he would rather take the route Mayor Clark suggested because he could not support the Chapter 21 outline. He was concerned that Novi would wind up with a $400,000 project and Novi steps up to the plate for 80% again and now at $320,000. He saw no way that Novi was responsible for 80% of that. He believed Novi should contribute but also believed that since Council had no control in the final decision of the Drainage Board his concern was that the same thing would happen. History would repeat itself and the City of Novi would be responsible for $320,000 of the $400,000 project.

Mr. Kozma said there is nothing that stopped the communities from coming to a negotiated agreement on apportionment while the Chapter 21 process is going on if that is the roadblock to getting something constructive going for Northville Township.

Member DeRoche asked if agreement was reached, how long it would take to have this solution in place if it was correct?

Mr. Kozma said there are certain statutory meetings that have to be held and engineering plans to be done and how quickly easements could be obtained.

Member DeRoche said Mr. Kozma said a year with Chapter 21 and he is asking how much does the Chapter 21 process get into the equation?

Mr. Kozma said if the two communities came up with the money tomorrow, they hired the engineer and it took them a couple of months to prepare plans and if there were no easement problems, it could be six months.

Member DeRoche said there was an opportunity to expedite this up to five months and he would be interested in seeing if it could be done. He asked everyone to push their ability to hold people responsible who are responsible. Hopefully, just the fact that we can go through this is enough for those counties not to shirk their responsibility with M.D.O.T. and come to the table.

Member Csordas said the only reason he would not support the motion was because he did not know what Novi would have to pay at the end.

Mayor Pro Tem Lorenzo said Representatives from Northville Township spoke with Mr. Kriewall, Mr. Nowicki and the Storm Water Finance Committee several times. She said our

administration did not direct them to City Council and the Officials from Northville Township did not take the assertive approach of coming to a City Council meeting and inserting themselves into the process.

Mr. Weaver thanked the Council for their interest and felt very encouraged. He said the Township had been working on this for quite some time. They had hired their own engineering consultant to analyze the problem and come up with some solutions and there is a report that the Township fully financed. He said he would welcome the opportunity to open discussions further with the City and felt the suggestions made were very good suggestions. He said we owe it to all of our public to do this.

Mr. Buckley said he echoed Mr. Weaver and said this has been the most encouraged he had ever been. He said on June 6, 1999 Wayne County Commission met to approve the Inter-County Drain and they have been trying to get this off the ground since then. To get all five entities together is very difficult and if we can get the Township, City and engineers together that is the way to go.

Mr. Pakkala said there are other alternatives outside the Chapter 21 process to expedite this. The City could still have a meeting with the Northville Township Board in order to expedite the drain process.

Mayor Clark asked Mr. Kriewall to direct the administration to move expeditiously and set up a meeting between City Council and the Township of Northville.

Richard J. Clark, Mayor Nancy Reutter, Deputy City Clerk

Transcribed by: ___________________

Date approved: February 28, 2000